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Offline Trim

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #900 on: February 03, 2021, 11:48:50 AM »
I think everyone is assuming oscar is gone/should be gone and putting his time here in perspective.

Is there anyone out there (not on Wildcat Salute) claiming oscar deserves more time?

If we're not canning his ass for his mask protocol or for losing The Streak, then I think he's delivering what we hired.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #901 on: February 03, 2021, 12:21:28 PM »
oscar is anti vax fwiw
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Offline slackcat

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #902 on: February 03, 2021, 01:16:53 PM »
He's in the right state then

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #903 on: February 03, 2021, 06:54:59 PM »
When it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.

Since WWII......

Since WWII......

Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?

I shouldn’t have said all time. It’s a harder argument to make, but still a case. There is a lack of measurables the further back you go. I started using Post-WWII because that’s when KSU basketball began to set its standard, and I was trying to show that oscar wasn’t up to snuff.

Here is some all-time.

oscar is 12th of 20 all time in conference winning percentage.
He’s 6th out of 20 all time in conference title percentage.
He’s 12th out of 20 all time in *adjusted avg conference finish.

*there were 4 coaches who were very bad, but played in a 6 team big 12. I’ve adjusted for this and placed them below oscar. Unadjusted oscar is 16th of 20 in average conference finish.

All Time NCAA Tournament Achievement Rating:
1. Gardner 4.8
2. Winter 3.73
3. Kruger 3
4. Martin 2.8
5. Hartman 2.625
6. Fitzsimmons 2
7. Webber 1.33
8. Altman .25
9. Asbury .17
14-T (5 coaches) .0

I'm not going to question your numbers here, but goodness you went really niche with these stats to find some metrics that show oscar as below average. I have a media guide, a subscription to kenpom, and look at college basketball and/or football reference or Warren Nolan damn near every day and I've never heard of any of those stats.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #904 on: February 03, 2021, 07:02:08 PM »
Is there anyone out there (not on Wildcat Salute) claiming oscar deserves more time?

I'd keep him over someone who finishes in the middle of the pack every year.

Man, I respect the hell out of you, and your consistency. I'm fairly certain you were one of the people I had an argument about with this 4 years ago when the board was discussing Snyder vs. Sweaty Gary, you made this exact argument for Gary over Snyder. I still disagree with it, I'll take a team who makes the NCAA tournament as a 6-11 seed 4 out of 5 years and who makes the NIT in the off year over what oscar is doing, this is torturous. I watch every second of every game and these last two years I've died a little inside 35 times the last year plus. We're going to end up averaging over 20 losses a year over a two year period of shortened seasons.

Online wetwillie

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #905 on: February 03, 2021, 07:03:05 PM »
When it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.

Since WWII......

Since WWII......

Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?

I shouldn’t have said all time. It’s a harder argument to make, but still a case. There is a lack of measurables the further back you go. I started using Post-WWII because that’s when KSU basketball began to set its standard, and I was trying to show that oscar wasn’t up to snuff.

Here is some all-time.

oscar is 12th of 20 all time in conference winning percentage.
He’s 6th out of 20 all time in conference title percentage.
He’s 12th out of 20 all time in *adjusted avg conference finish.

*there were 4 coaches who were very bad, but played in a 6 team big 12. I’ve adjusted for this and placed them below oscar. Unadjusted oscar is 16th of 20 in average conference finish.

All Time NCAA Tournament Achievement Rating:
1. Gardner 4.8
2. Winter 3.73
3. Kruger 3
4. Martin 2.8
5. Hartman 2.625
6. Fitzsimmons 2
7. Webber 1.33
8. Altman .25
9. Asbury .17
14-T (5 coaches) .0

I'm not going to question your numbers here, but goodness you went really niche with these stats to find some metrics that show oscar as below average. I have a media guide, a subscription to kenpom, and look at college basketball and/or football reference or Warren Nolan damn near every day and I've never heard of any of those stats.

I always know it’s a hit job when it’s spelled Webber, that crap is a dead giveaway.
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #906 on: February 03, 2021, 07:08:49 PM »
Is there anyone out there (not on Wildcat Salute) claiming oscar deserves more time?

I'd keep him over someone who finishes in the middle of the pack every year. Is there much chance we'd hire someone who'd be better than that?
I think there's a chance. I mean we could 100% flub the next hire (and I am assuming oscar is here for a while), but that still doesn't mean that its impossible to hire a coach who does better than finish in the middle of the pack every year.

BUT I think I get your point.  Over simplifying, but let's say we can broadly but coaches into 4 groups.

1. SLTH --- consistently finishes middle of the pack, never wins anything of value, but doesn't have disastrous seasons either

2. The "Puncher" --- if things line up just right they can win the conference and make a deep run in the tournament, but they can also get knocked the eff out and have teams that completely suck. It's hard to tell when a Puncher will never get back up again.

3. The "Winner" ---  just consistently wins things of value, very rare to find

4. The "Loser" --- just consistently loses, always below .500 in conference and never sniffs the big dance


Personally, I really don't like 1 --- IMHO its a special kind of hell for a fan.  Of course no one likes 4, and everyone wants 3.  I *thought* oscar would be a 1 for us at KSU, but I was obviously wrong.  He's a 2, and I am honest I preferred greatly to have a 2 at KSU over a 1, I always want to believe there is a chance for something great.  The question for me is, can oscar get off the mat again?  I don't know, but if he can then obviously he gives KSU a better chance to win than some derp from the 1 pool.

I love this, I can't believe I had the misfortune of having two losers when I was a student. I think Frank and Huggins would have ended up being punchers here, as it sits though neither of them figure on this chart. Frank was more SLTH than winner in his time, he unfortunately didn't win anything but the Dishonest Diamondhead Classic.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #907 on: February 03, 2021, 07:09:34 PM »
When it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.

Since WWII......

Since WWII......

Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?

I shouldn’t have said all time. It’s a harder argument to make, but still a case. There is a lack of measurables the further back you go. I started using Post-WWII because that’s when KSU basketball began to set its standard, and I was trying to show that oscar wasn’t up to snuff.

Here is some all-time.

oscar is 12th of 20 all time in conference winning percentage.
He’s 6th out of 20 all time in conference title percentage.
He’s 12th out of 20 all time in *adjusted avg conference finish.

*there were 4 coaches who were very bad, but played in a 6 team big 12. I’ve adjusted for this and placed them below oscar. Unadjusted oscar is 16th of 20 in average conference finish.

All Time NCAA Tournament Achievement Rating:
1. Gardner 4.8
2. Winter 3.73
3. Kruger 3
4. Martin 2.8
5. Hartman 2.625
6. Fitzsimmons 2
7. Webber 1.33
8. Altman .25
9. Asbury .17
14-T (5 coaches) .0

I'm not going to question your numbers here, but goodness you went really niche with these stats to find some metrics that show oscar as below average. I have a media guide, a subscription to kenpom, and look at college basketball and/or football reference or Warren Nolan damn near every day and I've never heard of any of those stats.

I always know it’s a hit job when it’s spelled Webber, that crap is a dead giveaway.

I didn't want to call nic on that because he's my guy, but yeah, I thought the same thing.

Offline nicname

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #908 on: February 03, 2021, 08:01:09 PM »
When it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.

Since WWII......

Since WWII......

Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?

I shouldn’t have said all time. It’s a harder argument to make, but still a case. There is a lack of measurables the further back you go. I started using Post-WWII because that’s when KSU basketball began to set its standard, and I was trying to show that oscar wasn’t up to snuff.

Here is some all-time.

oscar is 12th of 20 all time in conference winning percentage.
He’s 6th out of 20 all time in conference title percentage.
He’s 12th out of 20 all time in *adjusted avg conference finish.

*there were 4 coaches who were very bad, but played in a 6 team big 12. I’ve adjusted for this and placed them below oscar. Unadjusted oscar is 16th of 20 in average conference finish.

All Time NCAA Tournament Achievement Rating:
1. Gardner 4.8
2. Winter 3.73
3. Kruger 3
4. Martin 2.8
5. Hartman 2.625
6. Fitzsimmons 2
7. Webber 1.33
8. Altman .25
9. Asbury .17
14-T (5 coaches) .0

I'm not going to question your numbers here, but goodness you went really niche with these stats to find some metrics that show oscar as below average. I have a media guide, a subscription to kenpom, and look at college basketball and/or football reference or Warren Nolan damn near every day and I've never heard of any of those stats.

I always know it’s a hit job when it’s spelled Webber, that crap is a dead giveaway.

I didn't want to call nic on that because he's my guy, but yeah, I thought the same thing.

I’d never stoop that low
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline Shooter Jones

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #909 on: February 03, 2021, 08:08:02 PM »
I’d never stoop that low

Everything considered, no handpicked stats, just your opinion, rank those 11 coaches and their time at K-State 1-11.


Offline nicname

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #910 on: February 03, 2021, 08:53:00 PM »
I’d never stoop that low

Everything considered, no handpicked stats, just your opinion, rank those 11 coaches and their time at K-State 1-11.

Everyone else
----------------
oscar
---------------
Altman
Wooldridge
Asbury

Only oscar made me lose interest.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 09:23:23 PM by nicname »
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline Shooter Jones

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #911 on: February 03, 2021, 10:29:42 PM »
I’d never stoop that low

Everything considered, no handpicked stats, just your opinion, rank those 11 coaches and their time at K-State 1-11.

Everyone else
----------------
oscar
---------------
Altman
Wooldridge
Asbury

Only oscar made me lose interest.

Yeah, I know a lot of people that rank Hartman as below average because he went 18-38 in conference his last 4 years. They had lost interest.

Offline Shooter Jones

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #912 on: February 03, 2021, 10:42:05 PM »
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.

2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #913 on: February 03, 2021, 11:10:04 PM »
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.

2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.

 :surprised:  :sdeek: :frown: :horrorsurprise:
Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.

Offline Trim

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #914 on: February 03, 2021, 11:53:43 PM »
What have oscar's grandchildren ever done for us?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #915 on: February 04, 2021, 12:26:44 AM »
What have oscar's grandchildren ever done for us?

 :fatty:

This will be a tale for 2nd generation gE'rs

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #916 on: February 04, 2021, 12:38:55 AM »
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.

2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.

 :surprised:  :sdeek: :frown: :horrorsurprise:
Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.

Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...

Offline nicname

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #917 on: February 04, 2021, 12:47:35 AM »
Hartman should have been fired. He left the program in considerably worse hands than he found it. He'd already nearly left for OSU and then they allowed him to come back and coach like 4 more years.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 01:06:49 AM by nicname »
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #918 on: February 04, 2021, 07:41:41 AM »
What have oscar's grandchildren ever done for us?

Lol
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Woogy

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #919 on: February 04, 2021, 09:57:26 AM »
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.

2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.

 :surprised:  :sdeek: :frown: :horrorsurprise:
Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.

Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...

Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.

Offline Reggie Singlegur

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #920 on: February 04, 2021, 11:52:04 AM »
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.

2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.

 :surprised:  :sdeek: :frown: :horrorsurprise:
Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.

Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...

Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.

One thing to also remember about Hartman is that he had a heart attack just before Big 8 play started in the 84-85 season  and the team was coached by Daryl Winston in his absence. I don't remember exactly how many games he missed, but it was at least half the big 8 season, probably not fair to include those games in his last 56. He probably would have gotten run at the end of the 85-86 season by the used car salesman Larry Travis that we had had as AD back then, but Hartman announced his retirement at the beginning of the Big 8 season in 85-86 and he coached out rest of the year. He was able to stay in town and be the King of Manhattan until Snyder emerged as our new hero. Things were bad those last 4 years, but they were nothing like the last 2, not even close. Weber needs to announce his retirement (like Hartman) immediately to allow KSU to move on without firing him and he can stay in town and be a hero.

Offline EMAWzifried

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #921 on: February 04, 2021, 12:14:59 PM »
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.

2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.

 :surprised:  :sdeek: :frown: :horrorsurprise:
Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.

Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...

Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.

One thing to also remember about Hartman is that he had a heart attack just before Big 8 play started in the 84-85 season  and the team was coached by Daryl Winston in his absence. I don't remember exactly how many games he missed, but it was at least half the big 8 season, probably not fair to include those games in his last 56. He probably would have gotten run at the end of the 85-86 season by the used car salesman Larry Travis that we had had as AD back then, but Hartman announced his retirement at the beginning of the Big 8 season in 85-86 and he coached out rest of the year. He was able to stay in town and be the King of Manhattan until Snyder emerged as our new hero. Things were bad those last 4 years, but they were nothing like the last 2, not even close. Weber needs to announce his retirement (like Hartman) immediately to allow KSU to move on without firing him and he can stay in town and be a hero.

Fans werewantinghimtomoveonbecause everyone was eager to bring in Lon. Travis  made a show of a coaching search, but it was a foregone conclusion Lon was coming back  toManhattan. He immediately recruited Mitch, Henson, Scott and Bledsoe. I don't think he's had another recruiting year like that in his career and cetainly not at K-State.

Offline Reggie Singlegur

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #922 on: February 04, 2021, 12:31:18 PM »
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.

2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.

 :surprised:  :sdeek: :frown: :horrorsurprise:
Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.

Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...

Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.

One thing to also remember about Hartman is that he had a heart attack just before Big 8 play started in the 84-85 season  and the team was coached by Daryl Winston in his absence. I don't remember exactly how many games he missed, but it was at least half the big 8 season, probably not fair to include those games in his last 56. He probably would have gotten run at the end of the 85-86 season by the used car salesman Larry Travis that we had had as AD back then, but Hartman announced his retirement at the beginning of the Big 8 season in 85-86 and he coached out rest of the year. He was able to stay in town and be the King of Manhattan until Snyder emerged as our new hero. Things were bad those last 4 years, but they were nothing like the last 2, not even close. Weber needs to announce his retirement (like Hartman) immediately to allow KSU to move on without firing him and he can stay in town and be a hero.

Fans werewantinghimtomoveonbecause everyone was eager to bring in Lon. Travis  made a show of a coaching search, but it was a foregone conclusion Lon was coming back  toManhattan. He immediately recruited Mitch, Henson, Scott and Bledsoe. I don't think he's had another recruiting year like that in his career and cetainly not at K-State.

Yea, probably helped Hartman to retire knowing his protégé was going to take over. Too bad we don't have that obvious candidate to take over now.  All the more reason that Weber needs to announce now, so the search can begin.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #923 on: February 04, 2021, 01:47:03 PM »
chet frazier and The Flush aren't in the building to pick weber up off the mat and i don't see any equivalents that are capable of the heavy lifting that is required to do it. oscar is down for the count. ref is currently at 6 in the required 10 count.

Offline GregKSU1027

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #924 on: February 04, 2021, 01:55:00 PM »
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.

2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.

 :surprised:  :sdeek: :frown: :horrorsurprise:
Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.

Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...

Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.

One thing to also remember about Hartman is that he had a heart attack just before Big 8 play started in the 84-85 season  and the team was coached by Daryl Winston in his absence. I don't remember exactly how many games he missed, but it was at least half the big 8 season, probably not fair to include those games in his last 56. He probably would have gotten run at the end of the 85-86 season by the used car salesman Larry Travis that we had had as AD back then, but Hartman announced his retirement at the beginning of the Big 8 season in 85-86 and he coached out rest of the year. He was able to stay in town and be the King of Manhattan until Snyder emerged as our new hero. Things were bad those last 4 years, but they were nothing like the last 2, not even close. Weber needs to announce his retirement (like Hartman) immediately to allow KSU to move on without firing him and he can stay in town and be a hero.

Fans werewantinghimtomoveonbecause everyone was eager to bring in Lon. Travis  made a show of a coaching search, but it was a foregone conclusion Lon was coming back  toManhattan. He immediately recruited Mitch, Henson, Scott and Bledsoe. I don't think he's had another recruiting year like that in his career and cetainly not at K-State.

Yea, probably helped Hartman to retire knowing his protégé was going to take over. Too bad we don't have that obvious candidate to take over now.  All the more reason that Weber needs to announce now, so the search can begin.
Who’s to say Chester Frazier shouldn’t be in the conversation for new HC? Like legit.


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