Author Topic: politics of football (ban that crap)  (Read 28408 times)

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Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Football
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2015, 01:40:25 PM »
i imagine the problem will be solved by better helmets

 :peek:
Do you know of any exact brand that could help with this, Bookie?

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Football
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2015, 01:44:17 PM »
How long have miners been mining, knowing the risk of long term health results? There's a risk/reward in every profession. My back kills me from sitting in this chair daily. When are they going to make my movie? :curse:

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Football
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 01:48:16 PM »
You probably aren't sitting properly
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Football
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 01:51:41 PM »
You probably aren't sitting properly
More bad genes than anything, but still.  :shakesfist:

Offline Bqqkie Pimp

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Re: Football
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2015, 01:53:45 PM »
i imagine the problem will be solved by better helmets

 :peek:
Do you know of any exact brand that could help with this, Bookie?

Yep... we are launching a new business specifically to address the concussion issue. We did a TON of research before allowing lil BP Jr to play and he wore a Xenith X2E this season as they had yet to release a youth version of the EPIC.  He'll be in an EPIC this coming year though.
http://www.xenith.com/pages/xenith-technology


The Xenith helmet that Elijah Lee is wearing is the safest on the market per independent studies that the NFLPA had conducted: http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2015/08/05/0ap3000000506659.pdf



bears are fast...

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Football
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2015, 01:55:19 PM »

i imagine the problem will be solved by better helmets

The sport is going to be like heavy weight boxing is now at some point in the next generation or two.

Boxing is dying because it's model is crap and MMA is way more fun to watch. IMO it has very little to do with the well known effects of boxing on the brain (which at this point is tough to deny exist in football as well).

The biggest threat to football is parents not allowing their kids to participate until college. This would likely lead to an overall decrease in the quality of play, but given the sheer number of kids who currently participate it's hard to imagine the sport noticeably dying off.

Offline Shooter Jones

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Re: Football
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2015, 01:57:29 PM »
Concussions be damned, I'd be wearing a schutt air xp. They look the coolest, IMHO.

Offline CNS

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Re: Football
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2015, 02:02:27 PM »
i imagine the problem will be solved by better helmets

Not unless better means different and different means less protective.  Supposedly, the issue is the slight movement of the brain inside the skull.  No matter how hard, protective, or whatevs, you make a helmet, you can't prevent what happens to the brain when the physics of it (once the brain is in motion, it tends to stay in motion) is what it is.  I mean, you would have to fix the brain to the skull, then package that in a helmet that wouldn't cause damage.  That isn't going to happen.

No.  Your physics and kinesiology understanding are bad.

Well, that sucks because the above described is paraphrasing of more than a couple doctor interviews I have heard in the last 2 yrs or so.

I mean, if you have an organ surrounded mostly by liquid inside an enclosure, then take that enclosure and speed it up a bunch and make it come to a sudden hard stop, the organ in the liquid is going to keep moving in that liquid until it hits the inside of the enclosure. 

Tell me why that is wrong using physics and kinesiology.

Offline Bqqkie Pimp

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Re: Football
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 02:03:42 PM »
Concussions be damned, I'd be wearing a schutt air xp. They look the coolest, IMHO.

Funny you mention this... I have been tracking all the concussions in the NFL this fall via http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/concussion-watch/#players_2015 and then charting what headgear was involved in each injury via a google spreadsheet.

The Schutt Air XP is far and away the most dangerous helmet on the field.  So far, 43% of all TBIs this season have occurred while wearing this exact headgear.

 :sdeek:
bears are fast...

Offline CNS

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Re: Football
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 02:05:27 PM »
Concussions be damned, I'd be wearing a schutt air xp. They look the coolest, IMHO.

Funny you mention this... I have been tracking all the concussions in the NFL this fall via http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/concussion-watch/#players_2015 and then charting what headgear was involved in each injury via a google spreadsheet.

The Schutt Air XP is far and away the most dangerous helmet on the field.  So far, 43% of all TBIs this season have occurred while wearing this exact headgear.

 :sdeek:

I would imagine there are some other important variables to consider, such as position.

Offline ednksu

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Re: Football
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 02:09:56 PM »
i imagine the problem will be solved by better helmets

Not unless better means different and different means less protective.  Supposedly, the issue is the slight movement of the brain inside the skull.  No matter how hard, protective, or whatevs, you make a helmet, you can't prevent what happens to the brain when the physics of it (once the brain is in motion, it tends to stay in motion) is what it is.  I mean, you would have to fix the brain to the skull, then package that in a helmet that wouldn't cause damage.  That isn't going to happen.

No.  Your physics and kinesiology understanding are bad.

Sorry but CNS is (mostly) dead on (slightly off on brain motion).
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Offline Bqqkie Pimp

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Re: Football
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 02:09:58 PM »
Concussions be damned, I'd be wearing a schutt air xp. They look the coolest, IMHO.

Funny you mention this... I have been tracking all the concussions in the NFL this fall via http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/concussion-watch/#players_2015 and then charting what headgear was involved in each injury via a google spreadsheet.

The Schutt Air XP is far and away the most dangerous helmet on the field.  So far, 43% of all TBIs this season have occurred while wearing this exact headgear.

 :sdeek:

I would imagine there are some other important variables to consider, such as position.

I'm tracking position as well... the kids on the edges (Corners, Safties, Receivers) have far and away the greatest instance of concussion. With that said, and understanding its still a very small sample size, the Air XP is a death trap in comparison to the rest of the helmets being used.
bears are fast...

Offline DQ12

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Re: Football
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 02:14:07 PM »
well bookiepimp, your information obviously begs the following question: how many NFL players wear the schutt air? is it disproportionately worn by more concussed players?


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Offline CNS

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Re: Football
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 02:18:08 PM »
Concussions are obviously horrible, but do you even need them to get skettibrained?  I mean, aren't they finding CTE in players who haven't been diagnosed with a large amt of concussions?   I know the thought would be that they had some that weren't diagnosed, but that seems like conjecture given how little is known about both concussions and CTE at this point. 

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Football
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 02:19:47 PM »
i imagine the problem will be solved by better helmets

 :peek:
Do you know of any exact brand that could help with this, Bookie?

Yep... we are launching a new business specifically to address the concussion issue. We did a TON of research before allowing lil BP Jr to play and he wore a Xenith X2E this season as they had yet to release a youth version of the EPIC.  He'll be in an EPIC this coming year though.
http://www.xenith.com/pages/xenith-technology


The Xenith helmet that Elijah Lee is wearing is the safest on the market per independent studies that the NFLPA had conducted: http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2015/08/05/0ap3000000506659.pdf



The graph is kind of hard to follow because I just don't know what "head impact severity" is. It shows which helmets are better than others, but based upon the sizes of the bars, the best helmets still don't look all that safe.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Football
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2015, 02:22:20 PM »
And have there been large scale CTE studies for the general public? Are there other factors (diet, drug use, etc.) that could contribute to the disease?

Obviously there is something there with CTE and football, it's hard to deny that, but there could be other factors that contribute. I'm not sure how thoroughly that has been studied. Also, the increasing speed and size of players may make the technology of helmets less effective.

Offline MadCat

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Re: Football
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2015, 02:23:49 PM »
i imagine the problem will be solved by better helmets

 :peek:
Do you know of any exact brand that could help with this, Bookie?

Yep... we are launching a new business specifically to address the concussion issue. We did a TON of research before allowing lil BP Jr to play and he wore a Xenith X2E this season as they had yet to release a youth version of the EPIC.  He'll be in an EPIC this coming year though.
http://www.xenith.com/pages/xenith-technology


The Xenith helmet that Elijah Lee is wearing is the safest on the market per independent studies that the NFLPA had conducted: http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2015/08/05/0ap3000000506659.pdf



The graph is kind of hard to follow because I just don't know what "head impact severity" is. It shows which helmets are better than others, but based upon the sizes of the bars, the best helmets still don't look all that safe.

The difference between first and last is one unit of skettiness.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Football
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2015, 02:26:12 PM »
The difference between first and last is one unit of skettiness.

Yeah, but that would still leave the first one with about 8 units of skettiness total. The graph would be a lot more meaningful if it included a cutoff impact level where concussions are likely to occur or something.

Offline joda

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Re: Football
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2015, 02:29:41 PM »
A concussion (singular) isn't the biggest issue (it's still a concern though), multiple, repeated head traumas over many years is the big issue. 5-10 year old kids with little kinesthetic awareness running around and smashing into each other is not a good idea for the long term.

Offline CNS

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Re: Football
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2015, 02:30:02 PM »
And have there been large scale CTE studies for the general public? Are there other factors (diet, drug use, etc.) that could contribute to the disease?

Obviously there is something there with CTE and football, it's hard to deny that, but there could be other factors that contribute. I'm not sure how thoroughly that has been studied. Also, the increasing speed and size of players may make the technology of helmets less effective.

Genetics too, like many diseases, could be a huge contributor.   The brain is the next medical frontier and I would imagine that we will be learning a lot about this in rapid fashion. 

Offline Pendergast

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Re: Football
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2015, 02:31:54 PM »
i imagine the problem will be solved by better helmets

Not unless better means different and different means less protective.  Supposedly, the issue is the slight movement of the brain inside the skull.  No matter how hard, protective, or whatevs, you make a helmet, you can't prevent what happens to the brain when the physics of it (once the brain is in motion, it tends to stay in motion) is what it is.  I mean, you would have to fix the brain to the skull, then package that in a helmet that wouldn't cause damage.  That isn't going to happen.

No.  Your physics and kinesiology understanding are bad.

Well, that sucks because the above described is paraphrasing of more than a couple doctor interviews I have heard in the last 2 yrs or so.

I mean, if you have an organ surrounded mostly by liquid inside an enclosure, then take that enclosure and speed it up a bunch and make it come to a sudden hard stop, the organ in the liquid is going to keep moving in that liquid until it hits the inside of the enclosure. 

Tell me why that is wrong using physics and kinesiology.

Momentum can be reduced through engineering/design (the energy transfer can be performed by objects other than the human body).  You can 'absorb' the impact and reduce the acceleration of the skull/brain.  It's not the sudden stop, it's the sudden start.  Generally, the issue is the brain impacting the skull.  But your inclination that it can't be reduced or eliminated is naive and a bit alarmist.

Offline Shooter Jones

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Re: Football
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2015, 02:32:04 PM »
For some reason* I find it hilarious this helmet isn't at the bottom of the list. (Riddell VSR4)

*not all players wearing that facemask, obvi, but still, lol.


Offline Bqqkie Pimp

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Re: Football
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2015, 02:41:23 PM »
well bookiepimp, your information obviously begs the following question: how many NFL players wear the schutt air? is it disproportionately worn by more concussed players?

Although I, nor @HelmetStalker or @HelmetDetective, have yet to create a document that has a list of exactly what headgear every player in the league is wearing; I can tell you anecdotally from watching games that the most worn helmet currently is the Riddell Revo Speed.

Further, per market stats, Riddell and Schutt both have about 40-45% mkt share of NFL helmets and Xenith has about 10% with Rawlings on about 5% of the athletes.  Rawlings also has a high incidence of concussion for what few are using them.

I can say with some certainty that their is some correlation so far to the likelihood of being concussed in an Air XP is greater than the other helmets, though.

bears are fast...

Offline That_Guy

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Re: Football
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2015, 02:42:53 PM »
I never understood the bitching about concussions. Yes, they're dangerous to long-term health, but every player takes that chance when they sign up to play football and make a career of it. The athletes are not forced to play football, they choose to do it.


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Football
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2015, 02:47:47 PM »
I never understood the bitching about concussions. Yes, they're dangerous to long-term health, but every player takes that chance when they sign up to play football and make a career of it. The athletes are not forced to play football, they choose to do it.


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Most of the athletes choosing to do it aren't adults, though.