Author Topic: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look  (Read 135914 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1425 on: July 08, 2020, 03:30:16 PM »
My only issue with the letter is that #cancelling someone is a form of speech.  That's how it's supposed to work.  Person A says something, society analyzes it and reacts accordingly -- whether neutrally, in support, or in opposition.  I really don't have any problem with people calling out or canceling or whatever.  That's part of Speech too, baby. 

Seen in the best light, the letter is a call for more nuanced thought and consideration of how we oppose ideas we disagree with.  Which I think is a great and smart thing to consider, but keeping in mind that sometimes, reprehensible ideas don't deserve much nuance or thought or discussion.

none of the people who signed are at risk of being cancelled. They just don't want criticism from regular people.

while it is ludicrous to argue that the principle is invalid if there is a class of people powerful, influential or successful enough to not be subject to negative consequences that others may face or fear for the same actions, david shor was fired just a month or so ago for a (perfectly reasonable) tweet.  by any standard, shor was influential and successful in his field.

I don't know enough about Shor or the company and their clients, but I can see how that tweet could damage relationships with clients or maybe violate an internal social media policy. I can certainly get a passive-aggressive condescending vibe from the tweet and his adjacent ones and got the sense from replies that there's a bit of a history with similar tweets. Also considering he's NDA'd up I'm assuming he got a decent payout and probably walked away with a larger profile than he would have had otherwise.

At the same time, I don't think the "mob" was all that large and it wouldn't have been an issue for Civis to stand up for him. :dunno:
I think it's fair enough for him to be upset by that episode, the hypothetical decent payout and larger profile notwithstanding.

I don't disagree with that. But like from my very brief research of Civis, they're kinda focused on getting left-leaning clients - one article mentioned that the Biden campaign spent six figures on them. It isn't a stretch to think the Biden campaign might want to disassociate from support of a study like that (and by association, so would civis, even if it was scientifically rigorous and well done). My very brief experience working with consultants is they can be very touchy about offending clients. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think this was just about placating a twitter mob or is a great example of "cancel culture" at work.

Although, yikes

https://www.civisanalytics.com/mission/

Quote
1. First, and most importantly, we seek truth through scientific rigor.

The scientific method is at the core of everything we do. That’s because, after more than 700 years, it’s still the best process for determining truth. And our customers trust us and our technology because truth is the new anchor of good business.

2. We tell the truth, and we admit when we’re wrong.

We call it out with candor, empathy, and the license to be disproven – even when it’s awkward. We’d rather be fired than lie or obfuscate.

....

9. We do the right thing, even when it costs us money.

Data science is powerful: it can be used for good or bad. We’ll often pursue powerful social good work at a loss, and we’ll responsibly decline work that does wrong, even if it’s lucrative.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1426 on: July 08, 2020, 03:41:14 PM »
Right -- like I said originally, I don't really have a problem with private reactions to bad speech.  This guy shared something that could be seen as controversial, and he got canned.  I get why he's upset.  I get (conceptually) why his detractors/employer was upset.  Sucks, but as we've both pointed out, that's kind of how things go.

But I think the letter was an opportunity to suggest "hey maybe we should hold our horses on some of this stuff and be sure as we can that what we're doing/calling for is a good idea" in those kinds of situations.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1427 on: July 08, 2020, 04:59:47 PM »
But I think the letter was an opportunity to suggest "hey maybe we should hold our horses on some of this stuff and be sure as we can that what we're doing/calling for is a good idea" in those kinds of situations.

I don't know if you're referring to Civis or the #Mob, but

a) maybe Civis did hold their horses and consider what they were doing and
b) did anyone actually demand he was fired? I saw that some guy tagged the Civis CEO but I didn't see any demands (I also didn't look hard)

the other examples the letter shared were pretty vague

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1428 on: July 08, 2020, 05:15:05 PM »
But I think the letter was an opportunity to suggest "hey maybe we should hold our horses on some of this stuff and be sure as we can that what we're doing/calling for is a good idea" in those kinds of situations.

I don't know if you're referring to Civis or the #Mob, but

a) maybe Civis did hold their horses and consider what they were doing and
b) did anyone actually demand he was fired? I saw that some guy tagged the Civis CEO but I didn't see any demands (I also didn't look hard)

the other examples the letter shared were pretty vague
I'm speaking generally.  It seems like there's a lot less hesitation in writing people off these days for things they say/do, but that might just be my perception.  What do I know?

Maybe civis/#mob considered the situation carefully and didn't knee-jerk. If that's the case, good on'em. They know a lot more about the situation than I do.  But calls for thoughtfulness (if that's how the letter can be characterized) are probably a good idea.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1429 on: July 08, 2020, 06:19:36 PM »
Cancel culture is definitely a thing and as long as this country has no unions and at will employment it is bad. I don’t like racists either, but they should be able to earn a living and eat too. Unless we just want a special welfare program just for unemployable racists that we have cancelled it seems like it is to only ever ask that they be fired.

Also, in the academy and in real life at will employment has always been a tool of power and it seems like a very poorly thought out tactical decision if the left thinks they are now in a strong position to wield it.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1430 on: July 08, 2020, 06:21:51 PM »
The WaPo article where they told this story of a  non public figure random woman who wore a Meghan Kelly costume in blackface years ago and then she got fired seems bad. Justin Trudeau and Ralph Northram still in power and I think that should tell you everything you need to know about whether this is even “effective” on its own terms.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1431 on: July 08, 2020, 06:29:34 PM »

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1432 on: July 09, 2020, 12:09:11 AM »
I tried to have an open mind about that letter, however tying what they're careful to not call cancel culture, as a right wing ideal is a steaming pile of crap that I couldn't overcome. I do find it interesting that we can all find some common ground on pieces of this and can completely disagree on other parts. In some ways I'm configured with viewpoints on this issue, in gE anyway, as I've grown very weary over the zero sum game all aspects of life has become. I don't feel the same way about Harper's editorial board and the people who signed that letter. They are not friends talking in their living room, they are people in position of influence and are using that influence to do exactly what they are speaking out about, and that is not allowing people to be able to freely express themselves.

I don't think cancel culture is a thing, not unless you acknowledge that people for the as long as words have existed, have either fairly or unfairly had repercussions for the things they say and feel.

It is completely self serving for these people to complain about words having consequences, given almost all of them make a living or are able to enhance their profile by speaking publicly. I guess it's no surprise that these people, largely Gen Xers are attempting to create a society where your words mean less. No one told JK Rowling to poke at trans people, more than once. While most American's could say the things she's said without repercussion, some couldn't, I sure as hell couldn't, not that I'd want to.

The best way to not get cancelled is to not have to publicly broadcast all of your thoughts, I don't know why that's so difficult, we've all spent everyday of our lives doing just that.

Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1433 on: July 09, 2020, 12:16:40 AM »
Sorry MIR, but is there a DNR version of this?
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

https://blockstream.info/block/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1434 on: July 09, 2020, 12:18:04 AM »

Offline michigancat

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1436 on: July 09, 2020, 12:40:25 AM »
Sorry MIR, but is there a DNR version of this?

This topic is nuanced isn't it? Read it or don't, I don't give a crap.

Offline nicname

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1437 on: July 09, 2020, 01:34:28 AM »
Most of your prob dgaf about poker but this clip def belongs here imo. Also very lol imo. I know who my villain is, not sure if there is a real protagonist. I can say I do know which guy I want to punch in the face.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/I6qLj_f5hLc[/youtube]
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1438 on: July 09, 2020, 01:40:44 AM »
I tried to have an open mind about that letter, however tying what they're careful to not call cancel culture, as a right wing ideal is a steaming pile of crap that I couldn't overcome. I do find it interesting that we can all find some common ground on pieces of this and can completely disagree on other parts. In some ways I'm configured with viewpoints on this issue, in gE anyway, as I've grown very weary over the zero sum game all aspects of life has become. I don't feel the same way about Harper's editorial board and the people who signed that letter. They are not friends talking in their living room, they are people in position of influence and are using that influence to do exactly what they are speaking out about, and that is not allowing people to be able to freely express themselves.

I don't think cancel culture is a thing, not unless you acknowledge that people for the as long as words have existed, have either fairly or unfairly had repercussions for the things they say and feel.

It is completely self serving for these people to complain about words having consequences, given almost all of them make a living or are able to enhance their profile by speaking publicly. I guess it's no surprise that these people, largely Gen Xers are attempting to create a society where your words mean less. No one told JK Rowling to poke at trans people, more than once. While most American's could say the things she's said without repercussion, some couldn't, I sure as hell couldn't, not that I'd want to.

The best way to not get cancelled is to not have to publicly broadcast all of your thoughts, I don't know why that's so difficult, we've all spent everyday of our lives doing just that.

Not sure whether it falls under your concept of "cancel culture" but when I hear that phrase I think of the twitter mob mentality of people who are willing to jump into the fray and attack a person, @ their superiors, etc. based on some rumor getting picked up by an influencer.  I'm not concerned about the radio personalities of the world who are held to account for what they say, I'm concerned about the folks that have one mistake caught on camera and aren't even able to make amends before their life is ruined.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1439 on: July 09, 2020, 01:05:35 PM »
I tried to have an open mind about that letter, however tying what they're careful to not call cancel culture, as a right wing ideal is a steaming pile of crap that I couldn't overcome. I do find it interesting that we can all find some common ground on pieces of this and can completely disagree on other parts. In some ways I'm configured with viewpoints on this issue, in gE anyway, as I've grown very weary over the zero sum game all aspects of life has become. I don't feel the same way about Harper's editorial board and the people who signed that letter. They are not friends talking in their living room, they are people in position of influence and are using that influence to do exactly what they are speaking out about, and that is not allowing people to be able to freely express themselves.

I don't think cancel culture is a thing, not unless you acknowledge that people for the as long as words have existed, have either fairly or unfairly had repercussions for the things they say and feel.

It is completely self serving for these people to complain about words having consequences, given almost all of them make a living or are able to enhance their profile by speaking publicly. I guess it's no surprise that these people, largely Gen Xers are attempting to create a society where your words mean less. No one told JK Rowling to poke at trans people, more than once. While most American's could say the things she's said without repercussion, some couldn't, I sure as hell couldn't, not that I'd want to.

The best way to not get cancelled is to not have to publicly broadcast all of your thoughts, I don't know why that's so difficult, we've all spent everyday of our lives doing just that.

Not sure whether it falls under your concept of "cancel culture" but when I hear that phrase I think of the twitter mob mentality of people who are willing to jump into the fray and attack a person, @ their superiors, etc. based on some rumor getting picked up by an influencer.  I'm not concerned about the radio personalities of the world who are held to account for what they say, I'm concerned about the folks that have one mistake caught on camera and aren't even able to make amends before their life is ruined.

That's essentially how the Salem Witch Trials started, right? Someone misinterpreted something they saw then extrapolated it into something greater that it actually wasn't. While what we know as cancel culture isn't new, that phrase certainly is and it was crafted by the majority who, for the first time in the history, are victimized by this, instead of perpetuating it. Today's consequences of this are much less significant than it ever has been. Forgive me for not being sympathetic.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1440 on: July 09, 2020, 03:32:45 PM »
I tried to have an open mind about that letter, however tying what they're careful to not call cancel culture, as a right wing ideal is a steaming pile of crap that I couldn't overcome. I do find it interesting that we can all find some common ground on pieces of this and can completely disagree on other parts. In some ways I'm configured with viewpoints on this issue, in gE anyway, as I've grown very weary over the zero sum game all aspects of life has become. I don't feel the same way about Harper's editorial board and the people who signed that letter. They are not friends talking in their living room, they are people in position of influence and are using that influence to do exactly what they are speaking out about, and that is not allowing people to be able to freely express themselves.

I don't think cancel culture is a thing, not unless you acknowledge that people for the as long as words have existed, have either fairly or unfairly had repercussions for the things they say and feel.

It is completely self serving for these people to complain about words having consequences, given almost all of them make a living or are able to enhance their profile by speaking publicly. I guess it's no surprise that these people, largely Gen Xers are attempting to create a society where your words mean less. No one told JK Rowling to poke at trans people, more than once. While most American's could say the things she's said without repercussion, some couldn't, I sure as hell couldn't, not that I'd want to.

The best way to not get cancelled is to not have to publicly broadcast all of your thoughts, I don't know why that's so difficult, we've all spent everyday of our lives doing just that.

Not sure whether it falls under your concept of "cancel culture" but when I hear that phrase I think of the twitter mob mentality of people who are willing to jump into the fray and attack a person, @ their superiors, etc. based on some rumor getting picked up by an influencer.  I'm not concerned about the radio personalities of the world who are held to account for what they say, I'm concerned about the folks that have one mistake caught on camera and aren't even able to make amends before their life is ruined.

That's essentially how the Salem Witch Trials started, right? Someone misinterpreted something they saw then extrapolated it into something greater that it actually wasn't. While what we know as cancel culture isn't new, that phrase certainly is and it was crafted by the majority who, for the first time in the history, are victimized by this, instead of perpetuating it. Today's consequences of this are much less significant than it ever has been. Forgive me for not being sympathetic.

I’m not sure I follow, but if you’re suggesting no one was complaining about the witch trials when they were happening I really don’t think that’s right.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1441 on: July 09, 2020, 04:00:29 PM »
I think it is good that people can call Bret Stephens names on twitter and that some guy emailed Bret Stephens and pissed him off.

I think it is bad that Bret Stephens basically threatened the guys livelihood.

I think it is good that people can constantly broadcast to increasingly large audiences how awful Alan Dershowitz is.

I think it is bad that Alan Dershowitz can prevent Norman Finkelstein from getting tenure.

I think it is good that people got mad at JK Rowling and maybe cost her some bucks down the road because she doesn't like trans people.

I think it is bad that some woman who was not a public figure made a bad call on a Halloween costume and is now getting fired for it.

Democratizing this system has definitely pissed off some powerful people, but the people that actually experience most of the consequences are regular ass people that never get a chance to sit down with Oprah or whatever and rehab themselves. These just everyday assholes that become twitter's enemy for a day bear the brunt of the consequences not the rich and powerful.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1442 on: July 14, 2020, 06:28:12 PM »
Academic freedom and free speech . . . . as long as you never criticized any of our favorites!! (BidenBot Nation)


Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1443 on: July 18, 2020, 02:11:34 PM »
hilarious and precisely makes my point

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1444 on: July 18, 2020, 02:12:28 PM »
Academic freedom and free speech . . . . as long as you never criticized any of our favorites!! (BidenBot Nation)

Bari literally tried to get a Palestinian professor at Columbia fired because she "didn't feel safe."

beyond parody.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1445 on: July 29, 2020, 02:50:14 PM »
really good recap and exploration of possible implications of l'affaire shor.


https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1288535690406486023

"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1446 on: July 29, 2020, 02:59:32 PM »
really good recap and exploration of possible implications of l'affaire shor.


https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1288535690406486023
Pretty good read.  Mildly surprised to see it on Vox.


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Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1447 on: July 29, 2020, 03:04:11 PM »
haven't read yet, but pretty sure yglesias signed the harper's letter

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1448 on: July 29, 2020, 03:09:24 PM »
correct, he did.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1449 on: July 29, 2020, 03:28:48 PM »
I mean

this:

Quote
David Shor did nothing wrong

seems directly contradicted by this:

Quote
And all accounts of the internal situation at Civis confirm that clients and partners did in fact complain about him and his tweet to the company.

regardless of whether or not the research was sound and perfectly fine (AFAIK, it is), he failed to read the room at the time, which is pretty important as a consultant. Pretty interesting that his new employer doesn't want it known that he works for them.

as for the cool exclusive listserv, I've never been a part of one so I have no idea what the goal of his might be