Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?

[sonofdaxjones]

Can't you just walk into PP and other clinics and pretty much get free contraceptives?

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

My hot take on Abortion. It's a tragedy and we as a society should work so there is less of them. But women will have them done if they are legal or not, so why not make them legal to a certain point of the pregnancy? As a male I have a hard time telling a women that she must have a kid, especially when we have such a shoddy safety net. Just my humble opinion.

pretty much where i stand

No offense, but that's the laziest crap in the world.

You admit it's a tragedy -- why exactly is it tragic?  I thought this was a mere medical procedure.  Like removing a cyst or setting a broken ankle.  Is it tragic solely because the procedure sometimes puts an emotional toll on the woman?  Is every mere medical procedure a tragedy? 

Also, the argument that women will get abortions whether or not they're illegal is a nonsense argument.  The idea that society should only make an activity illegal if it means that, henceforth, no one will engage in that activity is extremely silly when you think about it for longer than five seconds.  People still steal things.  People still murder. 

Finally, the "I'm a man so I can't have a say," is just bullshit.  Should non-slaveholding northerners just minded their own business?  If you think abortion is murder, "I'm a man" is irrelevant.

Bravo. 110% agreed. Could not say it better.

One other point regarding "women will get them anyway" even if they're illegal, the author linked on the previous page makes a compelling argument that this isn't true. She believes that many women are either explicitly or implicitly encouraged to get abortions by their friends and families. "I'll be there for you." They don't receive that same level of encouragement to keep the baby. Abortion has become culturally acceptable. Making more abortion illegal would make it less culturally acceptable.

[DQ12]

There is lots and lots of evidence that we would reduce costs to society and drastically reduce abortions by providing free contraception to everyone, especially teenagers.

Amazingly, the same people that claim abortion is a literal holocaust don't want to do that.

Education too.  However, same ppl really like ignorant, unprepared, baby time bombs.

I am for these solutions!

[ChiComCat]

There is lots and lots of evidence that we would reduce costs to society and drastically reduce abortions by providing free contraception to everyone, especially teenagers.

Amazingly, the same people that claim abortion is a literal holocaust don't want to do that.

Free contraception may solve some problems but the burning in hell for eternity problem would just get worse

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Can't you just walk into PP and other clinics and pretty much get free contraceptives?

Yes. But I believe KK is referring to OTC availability of morning after pill?

I respect people who oppose such availability because it can cause abortion. However, I support it from the pragmatic viewpoint that it could dramatically reduce both the number of later term abortions and the rationale therefore.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I give ksuw credit for just being emotional instead of dumb tho, check this out from the cloak room (not a troll)

You have to understand the context of these people's beliefs. It's not that they support abortion / killing babies in a vacuum (no pun intended). It's the context of being warriors for the feminist cause. That's what these people get off on, for varying reasons. Some have been indoctrinated by society/media for the last 30 years. Some think it's going to get them pussy. You have to understand the root ideology. Feminism seeks to maximize constraint of male sexuality, while at the same time maximizing lack of constraint of female sexuality.

You're still deflecting. I've made my point. You don't have to admit you're wrong - just think about it.

[Rage Against the McKee]

My hot take on Abortion. It's a tragedy and we as a society should work so there is less of them. But women will have them done if they are legal or not, so why not make them legal to a certain point of the pregnancy? As a male I have a hard time telling a women that she must have a kid, especially when we have such a shoddy safety net. Just my humble opinion.

pretty much where i stand

No offense, but that's the laziest crap in the world.

You admit it's a tragedy -- why exactly is it tragic?  I thought this was a mere medical procedure.  Like removing a cyst or setting a broken ankle.  Is it tragic solely because the procedure sometimes puts an emotional toll on the woman?  Is every mere medical procedure a tragedy? 

Also, the argument that women will get abortions whether or not they're illegal is a nonsense argument.  The idea that society should only make an activity illegal if it means that, henceforth, no one will engage in that activity is extremely silly when you think about it for longer than five seconds.  People still steal things.  People still murder. 

Finally, the "I'm a man so I can't have a say," is just bullshit.  Should non-slaveholding northerners just minded their own business?  If you think abortion is murder, "I'm a man" is irrelevant.

It's ok to think it's a tragedy and still not want the government to throw people in jail for having an abortion.

[DQ12]

My hot take on Abortion. It's a tragedy and we as a society should work so there is less of them. But women will have them done if they are legal or not, so why not make them legal to a certain point of the pregnancy? As a male I have a hard time telling a women that she must have a kid, especially when we have such a shoddy safety net. Just my humble opinion.

pretty much where i stand

No offense, but that's the laziest crap in the world.

You admit it's a tragedy -- why exactly is it tragic?  I thought this was a mere medical procedure.  Like removing a cyst or setting a broken ankle.  Is it tragic solely because the procedure sometimes puts an emotional toll on the woman?  Is every mere medical procedure a tragedy? 

Also, the argument that women will get abortions whether or not they're illegal is a nonsense argument.  The idea that society should only make an activity illegal if it means that, henceforth, no one will engage in that activity is extremely silly when you think about it for longer than five seconds.  People still steal things.  People still murder. 

Finally, the "I'm a man so I can't have a say," is just bullshit.  Should non-slaveholding northerners just minded their own business?  If you think abortion is murder, "I'm a man" is irrelevant.

It's ok to think it's a tragedy and still not want the government to throw people in jail for having an abortion.

I don't disagree with that.  My question is why do you think it's a tragedy?

[Rage Against the McKee]

My hot take on Abortion. It's a tragedy and we as a society should work so there is less of them. But women will have them done if they are legal or not, so why not make them legal to a certain point of the pregnancy? As a male I have a hard time telling a women that she must have a kid, especially when we have such a shoddy safety net. Just my humble opinion.

pretty much where i stand

No offense, but that's the laziest crap in the world.

You admit it's a tragedy -- why exactly is it tragic?  I thought this was a mere medical procedure.  Like removing a cyst or setting a broken ankle.  Is it tragic solely because the procedure sometimes puts an emotional toll on the woman?  Is every mere medical procedure a tragedy? 

Also, the argument that women will get abortions whether or not they're illegal is a nonsense argument.  The idea that society should only make an activity illegal if it means that, henceforth, no one will engage in that activity is extremely silly when you think about it for longer than five seconds.  People still steal things.  People still murder. 

Finally, the "I'm a man so I can't have a say," is just bullshit.  Should non-slaveholding northerners just minded their own business?  If you think abortion is murder, "I'm a man" is irrelevant.

It's ok to think it's a tragedy and still not want the government to throw people in jail for having an abortion.

I don't disagree with that.  My question is why do you think it's a tragedy?

Because you are ending a human life when you get an abortion, obviously.

[DQ12]

My hot take on Abortion. It's a tragedy and we as a society should work so there is less of them. But women will have them done if they are legal or not, so why not make them legal to a certain point of the pregnancy? As a male I have a hard time telling a women that she must have a kid, especially when we have such a shoddy safety net. Just my humble opinion.

pretty much where i stand

No offense, but that's the laziest crap in the world.

You admit it's a tragedy -- why exactly is it tragic?  I thought this was a mere medical procedure.  Like removing a cyst or setting a broken ankle.  Is it tragic solely because the procedure sometimes puts an emotional toll on the woman?  Is every mere medical procedure a tragedy? 

Also, the argument that women will get abortions whether or not they're illegal is a nonsense argument.  The idea that society should only make an activity illegal if it means that, henceforth, no one will engage in that activity is extremely silly when you think about it for longer than five seconds.  People still steal things.  People still murder. 

Finally, the "I'm a man so I can't have a say," is just bullshit.  Should non-slaveholding northerners just minded their own business?  If you think abortion is murder, "I'm a man" is irrelevant.

It's ok to think it's a tragedy and still not want the government to throw people in jail for having an abortion.

I don't disagree with that.  My question is why do you think it's a tragedy?

Because you are ending a human life when you get an abortion, obviously.

I'm not sure I can understand not wanting to make the practice illegal if that's your rationale.

[Rage Against the McKee]

My hot take on Abortion. It's a tragedy and we as a society should work so there is less of them. But women will have them done if they are legal or not, so why not make them legal to a certain point of the pregnancy? As a male I have a hard time telling a women that she must have a kid, especially when we have such a shoddy safety net. Just my humble opinion.

pretty much where i stand

No offense, but that's the laziest crap in the world.

You admit it's a tragedy -- why exactly is it tragic?  I thought this was a mere medical procedure.  Like removing a cyst or setting a broken ankle.  Is it tragic solely because the procedure sometimes puts an emotional toll on the woman?  Is every mere medical procedure a tragedy? 

Also, the argument that women will get abortions whether or not they're illegal is a nonsense argument.  The idea that society should only make an activity illegal if it means that, henceforth, no one will engage in that activity is extremely silly when you think about it for longer than five seconds.  People still steal things.  People still murder. 

Finally, the "I'm a man so I can't have a say," is just bullshit.  Should non-slaveholding northerners just minded their own business?  If you think abortion is murder, "I'm a man" is irrelevant.

It's ok to think it's a tragedy and still not want the government to throw people in jail for having an abortion.

I don't disagree with that.  My question is why do you think it's a tragedy?

Because you are ending a human life when you get an abortion, obviously.

I'm not sure I can understand not wanting to make the practice illegal if that's your rationale.

Making it illegal entails some sort of punishment. The punishment couldn't be a fine because then you really aren't doing anything but making abortion illegal for poor people. I don't see people who get abortions as any sort of threat to society in the same way I view somebody who murders people that have already been born and living outside of the womb for any period of time, so I think jailing them would be counter-productive. I would also support shorter sentences for some murders than the standard life sentence, fwiw.

I'd probably be willing to support making the practice illegal for doctors to perform, with stripping their license as the punishment. I wouldn't support putting doctors who perform abortions without a license in jail, though.

[ednksu]

Got the videos "illegally" really bad.  PP willing to traffic baby parts perfectly fine.      Nice work ProgLibs

Dax hates cancer and neurological research.  Good job 'Pubs.

[ednksu]

Here's what I meant. The fundamental issue is if an unborn person has human rights and is considered a person or not. The videos were a tool to sway the argument towards that. What some grand jury says about the ethics of the videos matters little to me. Its a fantastic way to diverge the argument from the actual issue.

Fundamentally, the question is what qualifies as a person who is deserving of basic protection. That's the issue.

The videos had little to do with that. They were specifically trying to catch illegal activity and they failed to do so, so they lied and said there was illegal activity anyway. This directly led to a man shooting people at an abortion clinic.

I'd say "crazy" had a lot more to do with that guy shooting up the clinic than some video exposing the horror of what those clinics do. Such exposes should not be silenced simply because of how a crazy person might respond.

The videos fairly and accurately presented what these clinics actually do. The Planned Parenthood execs actually said what they said. They actually made those jokes and glibly discussed their butchery over lunch. They actually went through their "menu" and pricing of various prices (man, if you can get an intact head that's where the big money is!). The vultures actually coo'd "it's another boy!" while sifting through the remains. These things actually happened, and they were caught on tape.

You don't like to admit the evil of this enterprise, so you deflect to other issues - "The activists forged IDs!", "PP wasn't indicted!" So? They're still monsters.

This is a total lie.  The people at PP have never said that, because the stuff that the videos portray has never happened at a PP clinic, see the controversy over the still born fetus being used as a prop by these disgusting video makers to create a controversy. 

[ednksu]

Dlew I'm surprised to see you take this stance. Your post is a fair bit of misdirection at what people are actually claiming and doing versus narrative.  99% of abortion people would want less abortions.  Making them illegal only puts people at risk.  The comparisons as people have noted to murder are just absurd.  It's about state control of the human body.  If there were a similar mens issue KSUW would take over a wild life refuge to protest the state limiting his right to it.  The overall attack is less about abortion and more about control of women, which has gone on for centuries. 

[DQ12]

Dlew I'm surprised to see you take this stance. Your post is a fair bit of misdirection at what people are actually claiming and doing versus narrative.  99% of abortion people would want less abortions.  Making them illegal only puts people at risk.  The comparisons as people have noted to murder are just absurd.  It's about state control of the human body.  If there were a similar mens issue KSUW would take over a wild life refuge to protest the state limiting his right to it.  The overall attack is less about abortion and more about control of women, which has gone on for centuries.

Some well thought out arguments here. 

[chuckjames]

My hot take on Abortion. It's a tragedy and we as a society should work so there is less of them. But women will have them done if they are legal or not, so why not make them legal to a certain point of the pregnancy? As a male I have a hard time telling a women that she must have a kid, especially when we have such a shoddy safety net. Just my humble opinion.

pretty much where i stand

No offense, but that's the laziest crap in the world.

You admit it's a tragedy -- why exactly is it tragic?  I thought this was a mere medical procedure.  Like removing a cyst or setting a broken ankle.  Is it tragic solely because the procedure sometimes puts an emotional toll on the woman?  Is every mere medical procedure a tragedy? 

Also, the argument that women will get abortions whether or not they're illegal is a nonsense argument.  The idea that society should only make an activity illegal if it means that, henceforth, no one will engage in that activity is extremely silly when you think about it for longer than five seconds.  People still steal things.  People still murder. 

Finally, the "I'm a man so I can't have a say," is just bullshit.  Should non-slaveholding northerners just minded their own business?  If you think abortion is murder, "I'm a man" is irrelevant.

Damn Bringing the fire.
tragedy was probably the wrong word. Do I wish there less abortions? Abosolutely. But I don't think it's murder, could the fetus live on its own without being in the womb?
But I'm reminded on the chapter in Freaknomics when it basically makes an argument that the lowering of the crime rate in the early 90's was due to Roe v Wade. I don't think that in itself makes a abortion right, but I think it shows the types of lives outlawing abortion leads too.

and yes I know the argument about it would be done even if it's was illegal I terrible argument, I fight against it all the time in gun control arguments. But I think for the safety and health of our fellow citizens they should have the opportunity to get safe legal abortions.

what is your stance on eugenics?

Obviously I'm against it. I'm not saying abortion should be legal for the betterment of society, I'm just saying there is evidence that shows it might improve society. 

[Emo EMAW]

I am entirely okay with telling women, or men for that matter, that they can't kill somebody.

[CNS]

What if "someone" is a clump of two or three cells?   I mean, thats what we are talking about with the morning after pill.

[star seed 7]

I am entirely okay with telling women, or men for that matter, that they can't kill somebody.

See Ya death penalty

[chuckjames]

I think there is a space where you can call something bad or a tragedy, and not mean murder or a moral law is broken. Is it really murder if it couldn't live outside the womb? To me that's not a person yet.

[chuckjames]

For example War is a tragedy and bad, but I think most on here would agree that it's not murder, nor was a moral law broken.

[DQ12]

I am entirely okay with telling women, or men for that matter, that they can't kill somebody.

See Ya death penalty

Now you're starting to get it!

[Emo EMAW]

Babies, unborn or not, have rights.  I challenge you to go to one funeral for an unborn baby and tell those parents their dead child was "not a person yet."

[DQ12]

I think there is a space where you can call something bad or a tragedy, and not mean murder or a moral law is broken. Is it really murder if it couldn't live outside the womb? To me that's not a person yet.

But still, the question I'm getting at is why do you think it's bad or a tragedy. 

For example War is a tragedy and bad, but I think most on here would agree that it's not murder, nor was a moral law broken.

That may be true -- but I'm trying to think of an example where a war was a result of all parties acting morally permissible.  Can you help me out?

Also, war is sad because people die and it can ruin the survivors' lives.  I just don't understand why pro-choice people call abortion a "tragedy."  I can understand the logic behind believing the practice is a standard medical procedure, but I don't get why that would be tragic. 

[star seed 7]

Babies, unborn or not, have rights.  I challenge you to go to one funeral for an unborn baby and tell those parents their dead child was "not a person yet."

This is irrelevant.