Author Topic: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?  (Read 129375 times)

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Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #525 on: September 25, 2015, 03:20:24 PM »
psalm 139:13-18 and Jeremiah 1:4-5 both allude to humanity being a person in their mother's womb.

proverbs 31:8 would be a verse many pro lifers use as a foundation for their speaking up for abortion (although the next verse is about caring for the poor, which many pro-lifers are rightly criticized for ignoring.)

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #526 on: September 25, 2015, 03:27:21 PM »
Thanks bud
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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #527 on: September 25, 2015, 03:31:14 PM »
I spend more time and resources trying to help "least" that are not unborn than I do with "least" that are unborn. Doesn't make one or the other less important or less of a person.


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Is there a typo in here or am I an idiot because I don't get what you're saying?

He helps needy people and doesn't hang out with fetuses.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #528 on: September 25, 2015, 03:33:52 PM »
the whole point of the violinist and the chocolate brothers is that it doesn't matter if the fetus is a person.

I think the point of the violinist is that the people who try to use it think a fetus is equivalent to a violinist (a person)
I don't know what the chocolate brothers is.

Offline sys

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #529 on: September 25, 2015, 03:49:11 PM »
I think the point of the violinist is that the people who try to use it think a fetus is equivalent to a violinist (a person)
I don't know what the chocolate brothers is.

the problem is meant to illustrate that a living being that is unquestionably a human (a violinist) does not have the right to live, if the only way the violinist can remain alive is by through the imposition of significant hardship on another living human.  hence, the question of whether a fetus is a person does not need be answered to derive an ethical position on abortion, because even if you start with the position that fetuses are persons, it does not follow that they have a right to live inside of a woman that does not wish to carry them.

the chocolate brothers was in the same essay that dlew shared.  two brothers, the elder of which has chocolate, the younger brother does not.  is the elder brother ethically compelled to share with the younger?  is a third party observing the brothers permitted and/or obligated to force the elder brother to share with the younger?
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Offline DQ12

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #530 on: September 25, 2015, 04:13:29 PM »
the whole point of the violinist and the chocolate brothers is that it doesn't matter if the fetus is a person.

I think the point of the violinist is that the people who try to use it think a fetus is equivalent to a violinist (a person)
I don't know what the chocolate brothers is.
:confused:
The violinist is a pro abortion argument, Mrs. G.


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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #531 on: September 25, 2015, 04:17:41 PM »
the whole point of the violinist and the chocolate brothers is that it doesn't matter if the fetus is a person.

I think the point of the violinist is that the people who try to use it think a fetus is equivalent to a violinist (a person)
I don't know what the chocolate brothers is.
:confused:
The violinist is a pro abortion argument, Mrs. G.

OK, I was between meetings when I wrote that. I was wrong. The violinist story still sounds to me like yeah the violinist (fetus) has no right to the use of the other person's body but everyone is going to think you are horrible and call you a murderer if you don't help him.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #532 on: September 25, 2015, 04:22:01 PM »
the whole point of the violinist and the chocolate brothers is that it doesn't matter if the fetus is a person.

I think the point of the violinist is that the people who try to use it think a fetus is equivalent to a violinist (a person)
I don't know what the chocolate brothers is.
:confused:
The violinist is a pro abortion argument, Mrs. G.

OK, I was between meetings when I wrote that. I was wrong. The violinist story still sounds to me like yeah the violinist (fetus) has no right to the use of the other person's body but everyone is going to think you are horrible and call you a murderer if you don't help him.
I mean, you might think that...but it's meant to illustrate the moral permissibility of killing another when they unjustifiably infringe on your bodily autonomy.

Like I've been saying, I disagree with it, but I think it's a good argument.


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Offline Trim

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #533 on: September 25, 2015, 04:26:59 PM »
I'm going to read it later but I know I'm going to get all distracted by the holes in the plot of the violinist-aid'r kidnapping/hostage situation.

Offline slobber

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #534 on: September 25, 2015, 04:30:49 PM »

I spend more time and resources trying to help "least" that are not unborn than I do with "least" that are unborn. Doesn't make one or the other less important or less of a person.


Gonna win 'em all!

Is there a typo in here or am I an idiot because I don't get what you're saying?

He helps needy people and doesn't hang out with fetuses.
Sorry. As stated, I am a dumbass. I was responding to Trim, but I did not quote.


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Offline DQ12

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #535 on: September 25, 2015, 04:38:26 PM »
Are anti-abortionists all running homeless shelters out of their homes and sending food to 3rd-world countries on the reg to make sure all those tangible people don't die too?

There's no money to be made from the conservative agenda setters in doing that.
You keep alluding to this.  Care to explain?

Pretty obvious dlew. Most if not all conservative viewpoints/talking points are hand fed by entities making money off of either stoking existing outrage making something up to get outraged about. There's more money to be made from calling disadvantaged adults and their offspring lazy than making a call to be human and help them. This abortion debate is crafted to fire up religious zealots. I am conflicted about abortion but I feel I have to be 100% pro choice because of the political implications of being pro life, and the people responsible for this are completely happy removing all nuance from this conversation.
Huh.  Well aright then.  Kinda weird.


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #536 on: September 25, 2015, 04:39:13 PM »
Like MiR, I've always been conflicted on abortion. This thread has really helped me somewhat clarify my position to myself. In the past, I'd always thought "a fetus is a human, therefore it shouldn't be killed". The idea of it being the mother's burden and therefore her choice really initially complicated it for me. Anyway, here is why I am now firmly pro-choice.

1) Fetuses are lesser humans. There's no way around it, they just are. They're lesser humans than anyone that has actually been born and can survive on its own. (Someone mentioned in this thread that the least gestated fetus was like 20 weeks or something. Well, hardly any abortions at all occur after 20 weeks. I didn't realize there was a bill for this under consideration, but I probably would support a solid ban on abortions after 20 weeks (including cases of rape or incest): http://theweek.com/articles/579065/why-liberals-should-support-banning-lateterm-abortions

2) Sundance had a great post about how losing a fetus doesn't affect society one bit, and he's right. I've always been firmly anti-death penalty, and had trouble with people who were both pro-life and pro-death-penalty, and vice versa. But the death penalty is carried out by the state, which is scary as crap. I'd be firmly against state-mandated abortions, as well.

3) The mother's rights. It's easy for Yard Dog to just tell a mom to suck it up and put it up for adoption, but pregnancy is some serious crap that he doesn't have to deal with, even if he's the father and he told the girl she wouldn't get pregnant if she was on top. The only person that really has to deal with it is the mom, and to a lesser degree, society. The fetus is part of her body, she should decide what to do with it.

Offline wetwillie

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #537 on: September 25, 2015, 05:02:44 PM »
Fetus's can survive on their own about as well as sub 2 year old humans.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #538 on: September 25, 2015, 05:13:47 PM »
Fetus's can survive on their own about as well as sub 2 year old humans.

If a 6 month old baby's mother dies, could it continue surviving? What about a fetus at 6 months?


(yes, I know I should have said a fetus is completely dependent on the mother, unlike babies. Ya got me!)

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #539 on: September 25, 2015, 05:18:03 PM »
Fetus's can survive on their own about as well as sub 2 year old humans.

AND MOST LIBERALS! LOL
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Offline sys

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #540 on: September 25, 2015, 05:27:25 PM »
the violinist deals with infanticide.  the woman has the right to deny the violinist the use of her body, even if it kills him.  but she does not have the right to kill the violinist if his survival places no demands on her body.  i think he would argue that a woman ought to give an unwanted postnatal baby up for adoption, but that she could abandon the child in a less formal manner, provided that she did not do so in a way that unreasonably placed the child in joepardy.
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Offline 8manpick

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #541 on: September 25, 2015, 05:34:48 PM »
I've always been pro-choice, but I'm surprised by even the pro choice views in this thread.  I think SdK and I are the only pro choice people who don't care whether a fetus is a person or not.  It is really interesting to see everyone's views on this, and remember that we're all friends for the most part.
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #542 on: September 25, 2015, 08:56:10 PM »
I think the pro choice people who think fetuses aren't people are jumping through mental hoops to convince themselves they aren't morally wrong similarly to how K-S-U convinces himself that greenhouse gas theory is incorrect so he can feel better about global warming.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #543 on: September 25, 2015, 09:33:19 PM »
I'm going to read it later but I know I'm going to get all distracted by the holes in the plot of the violinist-aid'r kidnapping/hostage situation.

Which is part of the reason why it's a shitty analogy.
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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #544 on: September 25, 2015, 09:47:32 PM »
It's like playing whack-a-mole around here. Ok Rusty, let's take your points one by one...

1) Fetuses are lesser humans. There's no way around it, they just are. They're lesser humans than anyone that has actually been born and can survive on its own. (Someone mentioned in this thread that the least gestated fetus was like 20 weeks or something. Well, hardly any abortions at all occur after 20 weeks. I didn't realize there was a bill for this under consideration, but I probably would support a solid ban on abortions after 20 weeks (including cases of rape or incest): http://theweek.com/articles/579065/why-liberals-should-support-banning-lateterm-abortions

Are you telling me a 2-week old, or two-year old, can really "survive on its own"? It can't. Which is a big reason why birth is an arbitrary and illogical dividing line.

BTW, that "bill under consideration" is currently being blocked by the ghouls in Congress - Democrats.

2) Sundance had a great post about how losing a fetus doesn't affect society one bit, and he's right. I've always been firmly anti-death penalty, and had trouble with people who were both pro-life and pro-death-penalty, and vice versa. But the death penalty is carried out by the state, which is scary as crap. I'd be firmly against state-mandated abortions, as well.

By that same logic, losing a 2-week old or 2-year old doesn't really affect society one bit, either, does it? In fact, if you were really ghoulish, I bet you could argue (as some on this board have) that aborting babies is actually beneficial to society. From there, the same logic could apply to people post-birth (again, there is no logical reason to use birth as the dividing line - see above). A "society" that places itself above innocent human life is not much of a society at all. It is barbarism.

3) The mother's rights. It's easy for Yard Dog to just tell a mom to suck it up and put it up for adoption, but pregnancy is some serious crap that he doesn't have to deal with, even if he's the father and he told the girl she wouldn't get pregnant if she was on top. The only person that really has to deal with it is the mom, and to a lesser degree, society. The fetus is part of her body, she should decide what to do with it.

I've got news for you - abortion is "some serious crap," too. And how do you square your mother's rights with getting behind a bill that prohibits abortion after 20 weeks? Even you have decided that - at some point prior to birth - that human life should be given value over a mother's whim to kill it.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline Trim

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #545 on: September 25, 2015, 09:59:06 PM »
I just googled that there's an abortion clinic right across from my gym and in the same building I'm often in for classes.  I might hit that floor next time and give words of encouragement to the ladies to counteract whatever crap they're getting. 

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #546 on: September 25, 2015, 09:59:47 PM »
1) A 2 week old can survive without its mother, a fetus cannot.

2) You being up a good point, although much more has been spent on a birth than a fetus. Also you would know what you're getting in my new free market adoption marketplace.

3) I  would lean to it always being the mother's choice, but 20 weeks seems like a nice compromise.

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #547 on: September 25, 2015, 10:05:58 PM »
GHOUL
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Offline Tobias

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #549 on: September 25, 2015, 10:32:22 PM »
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