Author Topic: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?  (Read 129266 times)

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Offline Trim

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2015, 05:42:50 PM »
well ksuw seemed to take issue with the "suddenness" of birth as a defining period of time to become a human being. idk how you can determine a time if it isn't sudden. at some point you're not human and then at some point you are human.

Gotta break the plane.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2015, 05:50:51 PM »
KSUW, where do you consider the fetus to become a person, if not at birth? (not gE'ing i just want to know)

In all honesty, I don't know when that collection of cells becomes a "person" - that may depend upon how you define a person - but I think it is irrelevant, as I'll explain below.

First, here are some things that I believe are indisputable:
1. On one end of the spectrum, there's birth. But that is an arbitrary and illogical line. Aside from some fluid in the lungs, there is no meaningful difference between a baby 5 minutes prior to birth and 5 minutes after.
2. On the other end of the spectrum is conception. That's when human life begins.

Then there's "viability." But that's not a very good dividing line, either, because (1) the time of viability keeps getting pushed earlier and earlier with advances in medicine (another reason why blind adherence to cases like Roe v Wade, based on antiquated technology, is absurd and why justices shouldn't be concocting laws in the first place), and (2) viability is premised on the theory that the life can survive outside the womb, but a full term baby can't survive without support. Neither can a toddler, or most full grown liberals.

Therefore, I err on the side of life. I don't think it is my place to play God in deciding when that life becomes a "person" or otherwise deserves protection. So I start at the beginning. Human life begins at conception, and I believe it is evil to kill human life.

That being said, there is a difference between my personal beliefs and what I would be prepared to accept as a matter of policy. I am a pragmatist, and would gladly accept some allowance for the earliest of abortions if it meant banning all other abortion.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #127 on: September 21, 2015, 05:54:35 PM »
KSUW, where do you consider the fetus to become a person, if not at birth? (not gE'ing i just want to know)

In all honesty, I don't know when that collection of cells becomes a "person" - that may depend upon how you define a person - but I think it is irrelevant, as I'll explain below.

First, here are some things that I believe are indisputable:
1. On one end of the spectrum, there's birth. But that is an arbitrary and illogical line. Aside from some fluid in the lungs, there is no meaningful difference between a baby 5 minutes prior to birth and 5 minutes after.
2. On the other end of the spectrum is conception. That's when human life begins.

Then there's "viability." But that's not a very good dividing line, either, because (1) the time of viability keeps getting pushed earlier and earlier with advances in medicine (another reason why blind adherence to cases like Roe v Wade, based on antiquated technology, is absurd and why justices shouldn't be concocting laws in the first place), and (2) viability is premised on the theory that the life can survive outside the womb, but a full term baby can't survive without support. Neither can a toddler, or most full grown liberals.

Therefore, I err on the side of life. I don't think it is my place to play God in deciding when that life becomes a "person" or otherwise deserves protection. So I start at the beginning. Human life begins at conception, and I believe it is evil to kill human life.

That being said, there is a difference between my personal beliefs and what I would be prepared to accept as a matter of policy. I am a pragmatist, and would gladly accept some allowance for the earliest of abortions if it meant banning all other abortion.

#zapped
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Offline DQ12

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #128 on: September 21, 2015, 06:49:44 PM »
well ksuw seemed to take issue with the "suddenness" of birth as a defining period of time to become a human being. idk how you can determine a time if it isn't sudden. at some point you're not human and then at some point you are human.
Right!  That's always been my problem from a philosophical standpoint with abortion.  That point in time is super gray, and whatever point we pick is going to seem pretty arbitrary.

Defining that point in time is very important.  Because one second before that point in time, the thing is a clump of cells worthy of nothing.  No different than a snot rag.  If it's not a human, I have no reason to care about it.  Let it grow, let it not grow, abort it, name it, I do not care.  At this second, abortion is completely, 100% morally neutral. 

THEN, one second later, we've crossed the event horizon.  One second later -- whether it's at birth, or past the first trimester, or after the umbilical cord is cut or whenever -- one second after that line, the thing is a human being, worthy of all the moral concern that any other human being has.  When we've reached that point, all of a sudden this thing becomes very important.  At this point, abortion isn't a morally neutral thing anymore, but instead, it's killing a human being.

On one side of the line, no big deal -- Throw the clump of cells away like you would a used kleenax.  Then, an instant later, you're committing one of the most morally repugnant acts a human can commit. 

Awful lot of gray area for such a morally risky move. 


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #129 on: September 21, 2015, 07:18:07 PM »
The answer is just to let people do what they will and let God judge them. They are no threat to you.

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #130 on: September 21, 2015, 07:23:32 PM »
Remember when fsd said birth control is genocide?  :lol:
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #131 on: September 21, 2015, 07:24:00 PM »
Remember when fsd said birth control is genocide?  :lol:

Yes  :lol:

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #132 on: September 21, 2015, 07:52:03 PM »
Quote from: John C. Calhoun 1857
The answer is just to let people do what they will and let God judge them. They are no threat to you.


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Offline sys

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #133 on: September 21, 2015, 09:35:38 PM »
That's always been my problem from a philosophical standpoint with abortion.  That point in time is super gray, and whatever point we pick is going to seem pretty arbitrary...

Awful lot of gray area for such a morally risky move.

it's a very complex issue, where two of the most fundamental rights that we believe individuals are entitled to (to not be killed and to control their bodies) are in direct conflict.  i don't think people that feel there is one clearly correct side have considered the issue very thoughtfully.
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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #134 on: September 21, 2015, 09:42:55 PM »
Very complex, yes.  It's a shame the argument is filled with so much rhetoric (from both sides) because it really is an interesting and important argument.


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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #135 on: September 21, 2015, 09:50:52 PM »
The answer is just to let people do what they will and let God judge them. They are no threat to you.

I hope we're not coming full circle back to dumb arguments like this again. We don't pass laws just to protect ourselves, but to protect others. We have a moral obligation to respect and protect human life.

Just because the issue is arguably murky doesn't mean you throw up your hands and say "eh, let people do what they want and God will sort them out." Do I really need to go back through this whole exercise with you again? We wouldn't say that if a woman killed her 1-day old child, so why the hell would we say it if the child is one day prior to birth?! That leads to monstrous results. If you don't want to play God, err on the side of life. We know when human life begins. There is no debate about that. Everything else is just an arbitrary line.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #136 on: September 21, 2015, 10:08:01 PM »
I am a pragmatist, and would gladly accept some allowance for the earliest of abortions if it meant banning all other abortion.

 :confused: in your mind there should be no difference whatsoever between the two.

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #137 on: September 21, 2015, 10:25:54 PM »
jared from subway agrees that we should get rid of arbitrary lines in the law
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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #138 on: September 21, 2015, 10:28:58 PM »
I am a pragmatist, and would gladly accept some allowance for the earliest of abortions if it meant banning all other abortion.

 :confused: in your mind there should be no difference whatsoever between the two.

The full quote is as follows:

Quote
That being said, there is a difference between my personal beliefs and what I would be prepared to accept as a matter of policy. I am a pragmatist, and would gladly accept some allowance for the earliest of abortions if it meant banning all other abortion.

I'm not sure what's unclear about that. A compromise on policy does not alter the moral assessment of killing human life.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #139 on: September 21, 2015, 10:30:24 PM »
jared from subway agrees that we should get rid of arbitrary lines in the law

If you'd like to start a new thread about lowering the age of consent, knock yourself out. We're discussing abortion here, you deviant.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #140 on: September 21, 2015, 10:31:44 PM »
ksuw, as a pragmatist, i'd gladly get rid of partial birth abortions in exchange for protecting all other abortions.

deal?
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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #141 on: September 21, 2015, 10:37:57 PM »
I thought partial birth abortions were already illegal?

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #142 on: September 21, 2015, 10:38:32 PM »
I thought partial birth abortions were already illegal?

double illegal then
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Offline Tobias

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #143 on: September 21, 2015, 10:38:45 PM »
#negotiating

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #144 on: September 21, 2015, 10:41:46 PM »
Why would you go through the trouble of carrying a baby for 9 months and buying new maternity clothes and getting stretch marks and changing your eating and sleeping habits and all that just to abort the thing when it's halfway out the door?

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #145 on: September 21, 2015, 10:43:14 PM »
Why would you go through the trouble of carrying a baby for 9 months and buying new maternity clothes and getting stretch marks and changing your eating and sleeping habits and all that just to abort the thing when it's halfway out the door?

people do all sorts of weird things
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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #146 on: September 21, 2015, 10:44:37 PM »
Also i have another question. Why is planned parenthood or abortion doctors getting heat? They are just hired assassins. Don't you want to go after the real bad guys (pregnant women who don't want a baby)?

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #147 on: September 21, 2015, 10:45:29 PM »
Also i have another question. Why is planned parenthood or abortion doctors getting heat? They are just hired assassins. Don't you want to go after the real bad guys (pregnant women who don't want a baby)?

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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #148 on: September 21, 2015, 10:46:08 PM »
ksuw brushed that question off earlier, but if you read between the lines he thinks they deserve the death penalty as well.
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Re: Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?
« Reply #149 on: September 21, 2015, 10:46:21 PM »
I'm not talking about rapists