Smoke your cigars and enjoy the band while you can....

[wetwillie]

All of the schools in the Big 2 field a lot of sports that are bottomless money pits, so I don't think we will be as far behind in football and basketball as it seems.

This is a good point that I hadn’t considered. Aren’t we at the minimum required for Title 9 basically?  Won’t get us to where the Big 2 are but the gap may not be as wide as I thought.

Calling the non revenue sports bottomless money pits is not at all accurate, particularly in the context of having more of them puts your athletic department at a disadvantage. These sports generally have much lower scholarship thresholds than you would think, they share training facilities, and the coaches generally make salaries in the 5 figures. Field hockey players aren't drawing anything close to a full scholarship. crap most track and cross country athletes aren't pulling close to full athletic scholarships.

Looks like we need some hard numbers to settle this one.  Is there a way to see breakdowns of each sports expenses as a line item in the overall AF budgets of the public schools at least?

[MakeItRain]

All of the schools in the Big 2 field a lot of sports that are bottomless money pits, so I don't think we will be as far behind in football and basketball as it seems.

This is a good point that I hadn’t considered. Aren’t we at the minimum required for Title 9 basically?  Won’t get us to where the Big 2 are but the gap may not be as wide as I thought.

Calling the non revenue sports bottomless money pits is not at all accurate, particularly in the context of having more of them puts your athletic department at a disadvantage. These sports generally have much lower scholarship thresholds than you would think, they share training facilities, and the coaches generally make salaries in the 5 figures. Field hockey players aren't drawing anything close to a full scholarship. crap most track and cross country athletes aren't pulling close to full athletic scholarships.

Looks like we need some hard numbers to settle this one.  Is there a way to see breakdowns of each sports expenses as a line item in the overall AF budgets of the public schools at least?

Yeah, check the equity in athletics report

[MakeItRain]

https://www.si.com/college/2020/08/25/iowa-cuts-sports-swimming-gymnastics-tennis

Fact is, football staff sizes are outrageous. Facilities are outrageous. Even funding 85 scholarships is difficult to justify. And salaries are outrageous.

Barta gave football coach Kirk Ferentz one of the most ludicrous contracts of all time in 2010, a 10-year deal worth $42 million with all buyouts lopsidedly in favor of the coach. In the decade since, Ferentz has won one (1) Big Ten divisional title and zero (0) conference titles.

Digest these numbers from Iowa’s 2018–19 Department of Education filing: men’s gymnastics rang up a paltry $183,481 in what the DOE terms "game-day" operating expenses; men’s swimming was $263,357; women’s swimming was $244,141; and men’s tennis was $217,608. Combined total: just under $900,000.

Now remember this: Iowa paid its alleged racist bully of a football strength coach $1.1 million in a separation agreement earlier this summer. Chris Doyle, described by a host of former Hawkeyes as the worst kind of coaching meathead, got more money to go away than it cost for game-day operations for the four cut sports combined. (Total budgetary outlay for the four sports in 2019 was nearly $4.9 million.)

Like most swimming programs, Iowa’s has one of the highest team grade-point averages on campus. And like most swimming programs, the small outlay in terms of scholarship money is largely offset by tuition money brought in (on the academic side of campus). There also is tradition here—the program is 103 years old and is considered the birthplace of the butterfly stroke—and a state-of-the-art facility.

[wetwillie]

All of the schools in the Big 2 field a lot of sports that are bottomless money pits, so I don't think we will be as far behind in football and basketball as it seems.

This is a good point that I hadn’t considered. Aren’t we at the minimum required for Title 9 basically?  Won’t get us to where the Big 2 are but the gap may not be as wide as I thought.

Calling the non revenue sports bottomless money pits is not at all accurate, particularly in the context of having more of them puts your athletic department at a disadvantage. These sports generally have much lower scholarship thresholds than you would think, they share training facilities, and the coaches generally make salaries in the 5 figures. Field hockey players aren't drawing anything close to a full scholarship. crap most track and cross country athletes aren't pulling close to full athletic scholarships.

Looks like we need some hard numbers to settle this one.  Is there a way to see breakdowns of each sports expenses as a line item in the overall AF budgets of the public schools at least?

Yeah, check the equity in athletics report

Our balls are in your court @Rage Against the McKee

[sonofdaxjones]

All of the schools in the Big 2 field a lot of sports that are bottomless money pits, so I don't think we will be as far behind in football and basketball as it seems.

This is a good point that I hadn’t considered. Aren’t we at the minimum required for Title 9 basically?  Won’t get us to where the Big 2 are but the gap may not be as wide as I thought.

Calling the non revenue sports bottomless money pits is not at all accurate, particularly in the context of having more of them puts your athletic department at a disadvantage. These sports generally have much lower scholarship thresholds than you would think, they share training facilities, and the coaches generally make salaries in the 5 figures. Field hockey players aren't drawing anything close to a full scholarship. crap most track and cross country athletes aren't pulling close to full athletic scholarships.

Looks like we need some hard numbers to settle this one.  Is there a way to see breakdowns of each sports expenses as a line item in the overall AF budgets of the public schools at least?

Right now, the best snapshot to use is the NCAA financial disclosure from 2019, because the subsequent disclosures available now were either partially or wholly impacted by Covid.

In 2019 KSU -

WBB $3.9 million in the red

All other non revenue sports $13.3 million in the red

Certainly some expenses associated with non revenue sports falls under the heading of non program specific, the non program specific deficit was $10 million

[wetwillie]

All of the schools in the Big 2 field a lot of sports that are bottomless money pits, so I don't think we will be as far behind in football and basketball as it seems.

This is a good point that I hadn’t considered. Aren’t we at the minimum required for Title 9 basically?  Won’t get us to where the Big 2 are but the gap may not be as wide as I thought.

Calling the non revenue sports bottomless money pits is not at all accurate, particularly in the context of having more of them puts your athletic department at a disadvantage. These sports generally have much lower scholarship thresholds than you would think, they share training facilities, and the coaches generally make salaries in the 5 figures. Field hockey players aren't drawing anything close to a full scholarship. crap most track and cross country athletes aren't pulling close to full athletic scholarships.

Looks like we need some hard numbers to settle this one.  Is there a way to see breakdowns of each sports expenses as a line item in the overall AF budgets of the public schools at least?

Right now, the best snapshot to use is the NCAA financial disclosure from 2019, because the subsequent disclosures available now were either partially or wholly impacted by Covid.

In 2019 KSU -

WBB $3.9 million in the red

All other non revenue sports $13.3 million in the red

Certainly some expenses associated with non revenue sports falls under the heading of non program specific, the non program specific deficit was $10 million

Can you do tOSU and Bama please? Should give us an idea on how much of a negative hit the big 2 are taking on non revenue side of the AD.

[Pete]

All of the schools in the Big 2 field a lot of sports that are bottomless money pits, so I don't think we will be as far behind in football and basketball as it seems.

This is a good point that I hadn’t considered. Aren’t we at the minimum required for Title 9 basically?  Won’t get us to where the Big 2 are but the gap may not be as wide as I thought.

Calling the non revenue sports bottomless money pits is not at all accurate, particularly in the context of having more of them puts your athletic department at a disadvantage. These sports generally have much lower scholarship thresholds than you would think, they share training facilities, and the coaches generally make salaries in the 5 figures. Field hockey players aren't drawing anything close to a full scholarship. crap most track and cross country athletes aren't pulling close to full athletic scholarships.

Looks like we need some hard numbers to settle this one.  Is there a way to see breakdowns of each sports expenses as a line item in the overall AF budgets of the public schools at least?

Right now, the best snapshot to use is the NCAA financial disclosure from 2019, because the subsequent disclosures available now were either partially or wholly impacted by Covid.

In 2019 KSU -

WBB $3.9 million in the red

All other non revenue sports $13.3 million in the red

Certainly some expenses associated with non revenue sports falls under the heading of non program specific, the non program specific deficit was $10 million

Good info from Dax. This debate is one of oldest ones on this board. It’s indisputable that everything beyond football and MBB costs us money.

We are obligated under tile 9 to have the same number of scholarships for women and men.  So nothing to debate there, it’s something we have to comply with.

If it were up to me, the minute the NCCA drops the minimum sports number (or we leave the NCAA), we would drop all sports beyond football, MBB and whatever we need to be compliant with title 9….UNLESS a private benefactor FULLY funds a program (and corresponding women’s scholarships if it is mens sport). 

The, take all the money saved and invest it into scholarships for academically and economically deserving students.  WAY more kids would get an education that way.

[Pete]

$15M is what? About 1000 in-state 100% tuition paid scholarships? I’d rather have 250 new KS kids get an academic/economic scholarship every year than have baseball and tennis.

[Shooter Jones]

Baseball rosters pay a ton in tuition, and with the crop of has been/never was dads that will pay anything for their sons to play baseball, you've gotta keep that sport.

[MakeItRain]

All of the schools in the Big 2 field a lot of sports that are bottomless money pits, so I don't think we will be as far behind in football and basketball as it seems.

This is a good point that I hadn’t considered. Aren’t we at the minimum required for Title 9 basically?  Won’t get us to where the Big 2 are but the gap may not be as wide as I thought.

Calling the non revenue sports bottomless money pits is not at all accurate, particularly in the context of having more of them puts your athletic department at a disadvantage. These sports generally have much lower scholarship thresholds than you would think, they share training facilities, and the coaches generally make salaries in the 5 figures. Field hockey players aren't drawing anything close to a full scholarship. crap most track and cross country athletes aren't pulling close to full athletic scholarships.

Looks like we need some hard numbers to settle this one.  Is there a way to see breakdowns of each sports expenses as a line item in the overall AF budgets of the public schools at least?

Right now, the best snapshot to use is the NCAA financial disclosure from 2019, because the subsequent disclosures available now were either partially or wholly impacted by Covid.

In 2019 KSU -

WBB $3.9 million in the red

All other non revenue sports $13.3 million in the red

Certainly some expenses associated with non revenue sports falls under the heading of non program specific, the non program specific deficit was $10 million

Good info from Dax. This debate is one of oldest ones on this board. It’s indisputable that everything beyond football and MBB costs us money.

We are obligated under tile 9 to have the same number of scholarships for women and men.  So nothing to debate there, it’s something we have to comply with.

If it were up to me, the minute the NCCA drops the minimum sports number (or we leave the NCAA), we would drop all sports beyond football, MBB and whatever we need to be compliant with title 9….UNLESS a private benefactor FULLY funds a program (and corresponding women’s scholarships if it is mens sport). 

The, take all the money saved and invest it into scholarships for academically and economically deserving students.  WAY more kids would get an education that way.

You're both making an argument I've never once in my life made. Y'all think I'm sending someone to the EIA report and think Olympic sports make money? They only charge admission to roughly 10 of the 90 sports they award championships in. I've never and would never ever indicate riflery makes money for a school.

This specific conversation is about whether or not sponsoring more Olympic sports has a leveling effect as far as budgets go and the evidence is pretty overwhelming that it isn't. The schools with the biggest budgets, the most donations, carry the most sports. Ohio State football isn't missing a single thing because the athletic department carries gymnastics. K-State soccer facilities have not come at the detriment of K-State football and men's basketball, it's not a zero sum game, as much as some people want it to be.

[MakeItRain]

$15M is what? About 1000 in-state 100% tuition paid scholarships? I’d rather have 250 new KS kids get an academic/economic scholarship every year than have baseball and tennis.

You still think these athletes are getting free rides?

[sonofdaxjones]

I'm not making any argument

[Pete]

$15M is what? About 1000 in-state 100% tuition paid scholarships? I’d rather have 250 new KS kids get an academic/economic scholarship every year than have baseball and tennis.

You still think these athletes are getting free rides?

100% tuition paid isn’t a free ride.

[MakeItRain]

$15M is what? About 1000 in-state 100% tuition paid scholarships? I’d rather have 250 new KS kids get an academic/economic scholarship every year than have baseball and tennis.

You still think these athletes are getting free rides?

100% tuition paid isn’t a free ride.

If they are 100% tuition free it's because they're getting academic scholarships, just like everyone else. Most of these Olympic sports athletes need the same financial aid package as the students who aren't spending dozens of hours each week devoting free labor to the the fundraising mechanism of said school.

[Justwin]

The head count sports are:

Men's
Football (DI FBS)
Basketball (DI)

Women's
Basketball (DI)
Volleyball (DI)
Tennis (DI)

These being head count sports means that generally each player that is on scholarship is getting a full scholarship.

All other sports are equivalency sports. In these sports there are fewer scholarships available than the number of students receiving a scholarship. Almost all of these student athletes are receiving partial scholarships to get to a total number of equivalent scholarships that is allowed. For example, baseball is allowed the equivalent of 11.7 scholarships over a maximum of 27 players.

[wetwillie]

Rage has apparently bowed out so I’m giving this one to MIR

[mocat]

not sure where to put this, but the sun belt has more wins against power 5 schools (+ notre dame) than the pac 12 does this year

 

[Rage Against the McKee]

All of the schools in the Big 2 field a lot of sports that are bottomless money pits, so I don't think we will be as far behind in football and basketball as it seems.

This is a good point that I hadn’t considered. Aren’t we at the minimum required for Title 9 basically?  Won’t get us to where the Big 2 are but the gap may not be as wide as I thought.

Calling the non revenue sports bottomless money pits is not at all accurate, particularly in the context of having more of them puts your athletic department at a disadvantage. These sports generally have much lower scholarship thresholds than you would think, they share training facilities, and the coaches generally make salaries in the 5 figures. Field hockey players aren't drawing anything close to a full scholarship. crap most track and cross country athletes aren't pulling close to full athletic scholarships.

Looks like we need some hard numbers to settle this one.  Is there a way to see breakdowns of each sports expenses as a line item in the overall AF budgets of the public schools at least?

Some schools are more transparent than others. Here is LSU's 2019 budget:

https://www.lsu.edu/administration/ofa/oas/far/supplement-financial-reports/fy2019/lsu-br/athletics_fy19.pdf

They spent $30,889,068 on non-revenue (everything but football and men's basketball) sports in 2019.

Here is Kansas State:

https://www.kstatesports.com/documents/2019/10/15//2019_KSA_Audit_Report.pdf?id=7859

We spent $18,004,001 on non-revenue sports in 2019.

[nicname]

Cats v Pokes drew 3.334M. 5th highest rated game in CFB last week.

[nicname]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ben ji]

2nd highest ratings in that FOX timeslot

https://twitter.com/Ten12Network/status/1587529245680697344?t=IQkvLG5Whkf7KoN5JiVElw&s=19

[wetwillie]

I think we likely benefited from being right after the tOSU vs Penn state game but damn FOX had a nice weekend.

[MadCat]

Not bad for 2 fly-over schools separated by about 250 miles or so

[Pete]

Not bad for 2 fly-over schools separated by about 250 miles or so

And it being a complete stinker by halftime

[michigancat]

Kinda shocked GameDay and Big Noon are so close