Author Topic: 2014-15 college basketball  (Read 134592 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1625 on: April 05, 2015, 03:25:10 PM »
where can i give money to the organization that employs that reporter?


btw, jrake.  you used to be reporter.  why didn't you ask interesting questions?  it appears like you have the ability to formulate them.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline chum1

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1626 on: April 05, 2015, 03:26:46 PM »
and in any case, harrison clearly wasn't referring to the guy who asked the question.  how do people like rake make it through the day with no ability to read human interactions?  the "omg" that followed obviously was for the reporter.

I think the second comment may have been a simple continuation/amplification of the first comment.

the first part was a sarcastic answer to the question.  the second part was an exclamation at how unreasonable he felt it was that his teammate was being asked to answer a question he found either stupid, insensitive or untimely.

Indubitably.

Offline j rake

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1627 on: April 05, 2015, 03:43:05 PM »
where can i give money to the organization that employs that reporter?


btw, jrake.  you used to be reporter.  why didn't you ask interesting questions?  it appears like you have the ability to formulate them.

i was a student at the time and was useless and terrible and uninformed. there were very few writers who, in retrospect, were worthy of emulation. j mart was one of the few exceptions. he was very good, and i used to watch him closely.

he rarely asked questions at press conferences. he did almost everything in one-on-one settings, which helped him get decent answers (subjects will typically answer more freely when cameras aren't in their face). he consistently got quotes and info that others didn't have, and this is (largely) why he was the guy the fans most wanted to read.

if i got a job at the topeka paper tomorrow, covering k-state sports, i'm certain that i could become a relevant media person that fans would want to read. not because i'm a good writer (i actually think i'm a shitty writer), but because i feel like i have an understanding of what fans want to read.

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Offline sys

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1629 on: April 05, 2015, 04:03:06 PM »
j mart... was very good, and i used to watch him closely.

he rarely asked questions at press conferences. he did almost everything in one-on-one settings, which helped him get decent answers (subjects will typically answer more freely when cameras aren't in their face). he consistently got quotes and info that others didn't have, and this is (largely) why he was the guy the fans most wanted to read.

if i got a job at the topeka paper tomorrow, covering k-state sports, i'm certain that i could become a relevant media person that fans would want to read. not because i'm a good writer (i actually think i'm a shitty writer), but because i feel like i have an understanding of what fans want to read.

jmart was a great reporter for this level, no question.  but he didn't ask provocative questions, that i can recall at least.  you don't think asking the kind of questions you mentioned above would impair your ability to get future info?  even just tamed down versions of those questions?  or you just wouldn't care?
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline chum1

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1631 on: April 05, 2015, 04:05:07 PM »
Whoops. That's from last year. Still applies, though.

Offline sys

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1632 on: April 05, 2015, 04:05:56 PM »
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline chum1

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1633 on: April 05, 2015, 04:11:11 PM »
dirtydub

Offline j rake

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1634 on: April 05, 2015, 04:18:53 PM »
j mart... was very good, and i used to watch him closely.

he rarely asked questions at press conferences. he did almost everything in one-on-one settings, which helped him get decent answers (subjects will typically answer more freely when cameras aren't in their face). he consistently got quotes and info that others didn't have, and this is (largely) why he was the guy the fans most wanted to read.

if i got a job at the topeka paper tomorrow, covering k-state sports, i'm certain that i could become a relevant media person that fans would want to read. not because i'm a good writer (i actually think i'm a shitty writer), but because i feel like i have an understanding of what fans want to read.

jmart was a great reporter for this level, no question.  but he didn't ask provocative questions, that i can recall at least.  you don't think asking the kind of questions you mentioned above would impair your ability to get future info?  even just tamed down versions of those questions?  or you just wouldn't care?

j mart was a great reporter for any level. he didn't ask provocative questions at pressers because he (rightly) didn't want reporters at the KC Star, TCJ, GoPowercat, etc., to benefit from his intuitiveness. for example, let's say he exclusively found out that ron prince ran his players at 3 a.m. after a loss to louisville. he woudn't ask prince about this at a presser because he'd be simultaneously informing everybody else in the media. so, more likely, he would get players one-on-one and ask them what happened...while making them fully aware that he knew what happened.

the next day, j mart has an interesting story, while the rest of the media publishes the same player feature about antwon moore or something equally irrelevant.

the reason why coaches and players rarely give reporters anything good is because they don't respect them. day after day, john calipari, for example, has to answer the same dumb questions. "what does it mean to be so great?" ... "what is the pressure like?" ... "how does it feel to be so good?" ... and on and on. the questions are predictable and lazy and useless. john calipari learns nothing from his exchanges with reporters.

now, compare that to the national guys, writers like jeff goodman or gary parrish. these guys get scoops all the time, and seem to have a great relationship with coaches. here's why: because they've earned the respect of the coaches. the coaches realize that these guys constantly work the phones, constantly ask questions, constantly dig for info about every team and every coach and every player. so, when tom crean or buzz williams or even oscar weber talks with goodman, there's actually a decent chance that crean or buzz or oscar will LEARN something FROM goodman.

do you think oscar learns much from arnie? or d scott? or kellis? i highly doubt it. the current coach-media relationship is set up so that the media takes, takes, takes and gives basically nothing to the coaches in return. back in the day, the media could say, "we give you coverage! we are the reason why your sport is so popular!"

but in 2015, the media can't play that card anymore. these teams...from k-state to kentucky...no longer need the print media. k-state could hire its own team of writers, videographers, etc., and fans would be plenty informed. the print media, largely, is irrelevant. instead of trying harder, they keep doing what they've always done, they don't evolve, and i suspect they'll be extinct sooner rather than later.

Offline sys

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1635 on: April 05, 2015, 04:28:11 PM »
the media still has the power to turn a fanbase against a coach.  look no further than foster v weber for an opportunity for the media to significantly impact how a fanbase interprets events.  admittedly, they never exercise that power.

so, i don't entirely agree that it is pure take, no give, in the lazy media and coach relationship.  your point about reporters than can provide useful info to coaches is still a good one, though.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Online michigancat

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1636 on: April 05, 2015, 04:43:39 PM »



jmart was a great reporter for this level, no question.  but he didn't ask provocative questions, that i can recall at least.  you don't think asking the kind of questions you mentioned above would impair your ability to get future info?  even just tamed down versions of those questions?  or you just wouldn't care?

Do you remember a beat guy since J-Mart left providing interesting info no one else had?

This could be just because they're bad, or maybe because Goodman already has every scoop.

Offline Trim

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1637 on: April 05, 2015, 04:44:19 PM »
Rake, come to FattyFest and we'll do some #acting.  You'll play yourself, or yourself as a new K-State reporter.

Offline j rake

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1638 on: April 05, 2015, 04:45:19 PM »
the media still has the power to turn a fanbase against a coach.  look no further than foster v weber for an opportunity for the media to significantly impact how a fanbase interprets events.  admittedly, they never exercise that power.

so, i don't entirely agree that it is pure take, no give, in the lazy media and coach relationship.  your point about reporters than can provide useful info to coaches is still a good one, though.

the media has the power to turn a fanbase against a coach if the media a) uncovers something new about the coach (such as a scandal, behind-the-scenes development, etc.) or b) provides a negative opinion or observation that fans haven't previously considered.

i can't think of any times in recent k-state history where either of these things have happened. fans were anti-oscar before the losing began (whereas the media began expressing anti-oscar sentiments only after the team performed poorly and players left), and i have read very few k-state related articles that have presented a unique thought or opinion that i previously hadn't considered.

so, for me, my opinions on the k-state hoops program have been formed from a) watching the team, b) having an understanding of advanced stats and knowing what is and isn't poor strategy, and c) reading this forum, which is infinitely more insightful than any coverage i read in the media.

the media is useless to me.

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1639 on: April 05, 2015, 04:45:34 PM »
I also think the coaches like guys like Goodman and Parrish because they'll tell the public anything the coaches want to float, with the coach's slant included. Unless the coach is Bobby Gonzales.

Offline sys

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1640 on: April 05, 2015, 04:47:27 PM »
Do you remember a beat guy since J-Mart left providing interesting info no one else had?

This could be just because they're bad, or maybe because Goodman already has every scoop.

i don't think anyone has even tried since jmart left.  there's plenty of room left in the space between what would be interesting to kstate fans and what isn't interesting to goodman.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1641 on: April 05, 2015, 04:49:10 PM »
the media is useless to me.

yes.  but i think you agree that it doesn't have to be.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline j rake

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1642 on: April 05, 2015, 04:49:59 PM »
Do you remember a beat guy since J-Mart left providing interesting info no one else had?

austin broke stories via open records requests and did a nice job as a beat writer.

cassidy had a knack for finding the 'negative,' which fair or not, typically leads to the most interesting stories.

manbeck did some nice things.

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1643 on: April 05, 2015, 04:53:41 PM »
The JMart/Rake reporting wouldn't be interesting to the current gpc (and to an extent, the star/cj) readership.  That reporting and questioning would be deemed "hating."  I don't think it got to this point in the Nigel thread, but the key to a competitor would be to forego pursuing that audience (they'll be absent/dead soon), and give younger readers what they want and trust they'll be paying readers for the rest of their longer lives.

Offline j rake

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1644 on: April 05, 2015, 05:01:31 PM »
the media is useless to me.

yes.  but i think you agree that it doesn't have to be.

i think there's an over dependence on coach and player quotes, which have become more useless with each passing year.

if i woke up tomorrow and was a k-state beat writer, i can promise you i'd use fewer quotes in stories than any of my colleagues. i don't have any interest in relaying manufactured, SID-approved, canned responses. coaches and players, through both media training and trial & error, have figured out what to say and what not to say and rarely say anything of substance.

i would use quotes for retroactive purposes only. in other words, i would transcribe every spoken word from players and coaches, but...i would rarely print them. instead, i'd save them for future use.

"coach weber, in november 2012, you told me you thought you'd be a consistent top 3 team in the conference by year four. now, you're coming off a losing season and you're predicted to finish last this year. what's gone wrong?"

in november 2012, weber's quote is fluff. "we hope to be good!" but after he's failed, that november 2012 quote is suddenly very interesting - because now that we're in the present, i can point him to his previous expectations, and show him how he's fallen short of them. he's now answering to himself, as opposed to me, which is a fairly difficult task.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 05:05:19 PM by j rake »

Offline j rake

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1645 on: April 05, 2015, 05:04:17 PM »
The JMart/Rake reporting wouldn't be interesting to the current gpc (and to an extent, the star/cj) readership.  That reporting and questioning would be deemed "hating."  I don't think it got to this point in the Nigel thread, but the key to a competitor would be to forego pursuing that audience (they'll be absent/dead soon), and give younger readers what they want and trust they'll be paying readers for the rest of their longer lives.

GPC and dinosaur newspaper readers (i.e., older fans) like to have it both ways.

when the team is doing well, readers rip writers for asking tough or controversial or negative questions. but when the team is performing poorly, these same fans criticize the media for being too fluffy, for not asking the tough questions, and for not holding anyone's (i.e., coach or AD) feet to the fire.

Offline sys

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1646 on: April 05, 2015, 05:06:59 PM »
i think there's an over dependence on coach and player quotes, which have become more useless with each passing year.

yes!


"coach weber, in november 2012, you told me you thought you'd be a consistent top 3 team in the conference by year four. now, you're coming off a losing season and you're predicted to finish last this year. what's gone wrong?"

in november 2012, weber's quote is fluff. "we hope to be good!" but after he's failed, that november 2012 quote is suddenly very interesting - because now that we're in the present, i can point him to his previous expectations, and show him how he's fallen short of them. he's now answering to himself, as opposed to me, which is a fairly difficult task.

you'd ask that in press conferences?  because why would he talk to you at any other time?
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1647 on: April 05, 2015, 05:08:07 PM »
when the team is doing well, readers rip writers for asking tough or controversial or negative questions. but when the team is performing poorly, these same fans criticize the media for being too fluffy, for not asking the tough questions, and for not holding anyone's (i.e., coach or AD) feet to the fire.

honestly, that doesn't seem all that unfair.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline j rake

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1648 on: April 05, 2015, 05:10:13 PM »
you'd ask that in press conferences?  because why would he talk to you at any other time?

there are few, but some (!), opportunities for one-on-one interviews with a coach. if not one-on-one, then you can at least ask questions in a much smaller setting (i.e., midweek after practice), when the number of reporters there might be four or five as opposed to 24 or 25 (such as after a game).

Offline j rake

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Re: 2014-15 college basketball
« Reply #1649 on: April 05, 2015, 05:26:04 PM »
when the team is doing well, readers rip writers for asking tough or controversial or negative questions. but when the team is performing poorly, these same fans criticize the media for being too fluffy, for not asking the tough questions, and for not holding anyone's (i.e., coach or AD) feet to the fire.

honestly, that doesn't seem all that unfair.

well, here's an example:

when k-state was 4-1 and leading the big 12 (lol), the typical dinosaur or GPC reader would have been outraged if a local columnist argued that k-state wasn't as good as its record. for instance, if a columnist wrote that k-state's start was "fool's gold" - and largely the result of playing two crappy teams at home and pulling out two other wins it had no business winning - they'd be branded a hater. "you're just trying to stir things up!"

in reality, the columnist's argument could have merit. but it's a no-win situation for the columnist to publish this particular opinion. because months later, when the columnist's previous opinions are validated, the fans then say, "hold oscar's feet to the fire and call out this fraud team!" nobody gives the columnist any credit for being right.

but if the columnist was wrong, the fans say: "OHHH!! I THOUGHT THE 4-1 START WAS FOOL'S GOLD YOU MORON IDIOT!!"

every columnist ever has been freerolled by his/her readers, who always play the result.

in the end, it's -EV for a columnist to take an unpopular stance or present a contrarian opinion. it's much easier, and a whole lot less stressful, to simply mail it in.

the end result is boring content that nobody wants to read.