StL County Cops Shoot Teen

[DQ12]

By law, they operate in secret and hear only evidence presented by prosecutors, who also instruct the grand jurors on the law. Defense lawyers are barred from speaking. [/b

secrecy and a unanimous decision by 12 voters just to go to trial? man. Lawyers, what's the logic behind this?

Grand juries are just really stupid.  In ye olde english times the grand jury was an accusing body made by the king to identify people committing crimes, but the grand jury could refuse royal pressure to indict, so it was protection against unfair charges.

One of its functions is supposed to be like that today -- to protect citizens (and their reputations) from potential tyranny by ("secretly") refusing to indict when the prosecutor (an arm of the executive branch) brings unjust charges.  The secrecy is supposed to prevent the accused's reputation.  Secrecy justifications (pulled straight from last semester's outline!) include

1.   To prevent the escape of those who may be indicted (targets)
2.   To insure the utmost freedom to the grand jury in its deliberations
3.   To prevent subornation of perjury or tampering with the witnesses or jurors
4.   To encourage free disclosure by witnesses
5.   To protect the innocent accused who is exonerated from the fact that he has been under investigation.

But in reality, its screening function is purely for show.  If the prosecutor wants an indictment, he gets one:  It's non-adversarial (defendant isn't present or represented by anyone to argue his side); The standard of proof is probable cause; all sorts of evidence that is inadmissible at trial is admissible in front of the Grand Jury.  Everything is stacked so the Prosecutor "wins" at this stage (as long as he wants to win).

Also 12 is the minimum number of people who vote to indict before it can go to trial...I don't know how it works state by state, but at least federally, there are 23 people who sit on the grand jury.

[420seriouscat69]

Dude was rough ridin' tapping out. That video pisses me off. Tobacco wins again! First mike brown and now this. 4-5 cops making sure some fat guy is on the ground unarmed and they're all shitting their pants worried. This is worse than mb. This was far more careless and unnessary.

[Dugout DickStone]

Thanks Dlew for giving an exec summary of the proceeding.  It is right on.

 The reality is, in cases of cop shootings the prosecutor is vying to avoid prosecution, which makes the process simply political cover.

[Headinjun]

Video is pretty bad. Surprised no indictment. About the only thing I can say in cops defense is that dude was a friggin tank.

Of course you need to give those bastards an out.

#notsurprised

[AbeFroman]

I hate to generalize, but eff all cops seriously. All of them are losers.

[SdK]

someone needs to end Don Lemon's throat, right now, my goodness

I'm so glad I brought that phrase to gE. It makes me smile when I see it used.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Video is pretty bad. Surprised no indictment. About the only thing I can say in cops defense is that dude was a friggin tank.

Of course you need to give those bastards an out.

#notsurprised

I'm not giving the cops an out. Looks to me like the cop should have been indicted on manslaughter.

[Cartierfor3]

St. Louis County Police City of Fenton Precinct
Kids will be Kids?

On November 22nd 2014, a Cleveland Police Officer shot 12 year old Tamir Rice who had his hand on an Airsoft pistol. The Airsoft pistol had the orange warning tip removed. I do not know all the details of the story; I encourage you to research reliable resources and educated yourself about the incident. This article is not about this a boy losing his life, whether this was a justified shooting or, whether the cops acted too fast. This is about the Fenton Precinct making residents aware of a “hot” topic and learning from this incident so Fenton never loses a child’s life.
If you or your children have an Airsoft or pellet gun please sit them down and talk to them about this tragedy. Your children should have rules for “toy” guns that mirror the rules of a real weapon. Pellet guns and Airsoft guns should not be allowed to be played with throughout the neighborhood, common grounds, or used to threaten or intimidate people. Pellet guns have no orange warning tip because they are considered weapons; Airsoft guns do have orange tip. Please inspect your child’s Airsoft gun to make sure the orange tip has not been altered or removed. These guns are very realistic.
Pellet gun laws are the same as any weapon in the City of Fenton. Children cannot carry a weapon and they cannot shoot this weapon within the city limits. Airsoft guns are considered toys, but city ordinance prohibits the “shooting of any projectile within the city limits”.
Warn them that these “toys” do look like real guns and could result in the police getting called on them. The police may get called to respond to “a child with a gun”, “maybe a toy gun”, it is important to know how officers are trained to respond. If the type of gun is in question by the witness, the Police will respond as though it is a real gun until it can be confirmed one way or the other. Remember if an Airsoft pistol is tucked in your pants like a holster then obviously the orange tip is no longer visible. The police will respond lights and sirens and come to a screeching halt in the area where your child is playing with the gun. Here are some tips to help your child respond appropriately. Do not run away. They need to no longer have the gun in their hands, throw it away from them. They need to comply with officers instructions. They may be ordered to lie down on the ground. Clear communication between your child and the police is essential. Police need to know that it is a toy gun; I do hope I am explaining a scenario that will never happen in our area.
So again, “kids will be kids”, and your children will continue playing war in the common grounds. Share this with your children; tell this story to families that might need this information, and encourage your kids to talk to classmates about this. Working together we will keep our community a safe place.

This is their facebook page. I cannot imagine anyone less self aware. Its like they are asking to be hated.

[Cartierfor3]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/22/spike-lee-splices-footage-of-eric-garners-death-with-radio-raheems-in-do-the-right-thing/

Michael Brown attacked a cop. I do not think that cop should've shot him, but once you make the choice to get into an altercation physically with the cop, the law is basically going to let him do whatever he wants. Garner was just asking them to stop harassing him and they choked him to death. I cannot watch this stuff anymore guys. Its too hard on me.

[EMAWmeister]

Rand Paul blames Eric Garner's death on high NYC cigarette tax

of course he does 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/politics/rand-paul-eric-garner-taxes/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[Institutional Control]

Rand Paul blames Eric Garner's death on high NYC cigarette tax

of course he does 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/politics/rand-paul-eric-garner-taxes/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

That's the right wing talking point today.  Taxes killed Eric Garner.

[SdK]

Rand Paul blames Eric Garner's death on high NYC cigarette tax

of course he does 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/politics/rand-paul-eric-garner-taxes/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

That's the right wing talking point today.  Taxes killed Eric Garner.

I wish choke hold cops last name was tax.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Was he pointing out that it's absurd that he was forcibly arrested over such an absurd law? Because I agree with that.

[420seriouscat69]

Definitely Obamas fault. That and North Carolina.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Was he pointing out that it's absurd that he was forcibly arrested over such an absurd law? Because I agree with that.

You don't think drugs should be regulated?

[Dugout DickStone]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/03/officer-who-fatally-shot-tamir-rice-had-been-judged-unfit

dude just wanted more action

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Was he pointing out that it's absurd that he was forcibly arrested over such an absurd law? Because I agree with that.

You don't think drugs should be regulated?

That's cute - but let's maybe not be cute about this, ok? The dude wasn't dealing crack or even marijuana - he was selling tobacco in the form of "loose cigarettes" - which would ordinarily be legal except that it violated an ordinance designed to prevent people from dodging a hefty city sales tax. I'm simply pointing out that it seems absurd for someone to die over such an absurd infraction of an absurd law - and I think that may be Rand Paul's point also.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Was he pointing out that it's absurd that he was forcibly arrested over such an absurd law? Because I agree with that.

You don't think drugs should be regulated?

That's cute - but let's maybe not be cute about this, ok? The dude wasn't dealing crack or even marijuana - he was selling tobacco in the form of "loose cigarettes" - which would ordinarily be legal except that it violated an ordinance designed to prevent people from dodging a hefty city sales tax. I'm simply pointing out that it seems absurd for someone to die over such an absurd infraction of an absurd law - and I think that may be Rand Paul's point also.

I don't think it's ridiculous to arrest him. He didn't die over the infraction. He died because the murderer cop choked him out.

[Cartierfor3]

Was he pointing out that it's absurd that he was forcibly arrested over such an absurd law? Because I agree with that.

You don't think drugs should be regulated?

That's cute - but let's maybe not be cute about this, ok? The dude wasn't dealing crack or even marijuana - he was selling tobacco in the form of "loose cigarettes" - which would ordinarily be legal except that it violated an ordinance designed to prevent people from dodging a hefty city sales tax. I'm simply pointing out that it seems absurd for someone to die over such an absurd infraction of an absurd law - and I think that may be Rand Paul's point also.

I don't think it's ridiculous to arrest him. He didn't die over the infraction. He died because the murderer cop choked him out.

Good grief. Its ridiculous to over regulate anything and everything. Its ridiculous to harass a dude for pedaling cigarettes (what's his daily income on that? $200 on a good day?). And its criminal to choke him to death, and watch him die like a roadkill squirrel without assisting him at all.

RP is right that cops shouldn't have to deal with minor stuff like illegal cigarettes (who the eff cares). But the bigger issue is the license to kill that cops have. 

[Spracne]

The police officer's actions led to his death.  However, I don't think his actions were sufficient to cause the death of a normal, healthy individual.  There is no way his hold cut off the supply of oxygen to the brain long enough to cause death.  Not defending the cop.  Just breaking down the film.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Was he pointing out that it's absurd that he was forcibly arrested over such an absurd law? Because I agree with that.

You don't think drugs should be regulated?

That's cute - but let's maybe not be cute about this, ok? The dude wasn't dealing crack or even marijuana - he was selling tobacco in the form of "loose cigarettes" - which would ordinarily be legal except that it violated an ordinance designed to prevent people from dodging a hefty city sales tax. I'm simply pointing out that it seems absurd for someone to die over such an absurd infraction of an absurd law - and I think that may be Rand Paul's point also.

I don't think it's ridiculous to arrest him. He didn't die over the infraction. He died because the murderer cop choked him out.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Of course the overzealous cop was the most proximate cause of his death. The guy's severe obesity and asthma was undoubtedly another contributing factor. But I do think the arrest itself was ridiculous. It's a stupid law and a stupid waste of law enforcement to enforce that law. Rand Paul is right to point that out. He's not saying the cop had nothing to do with it, but the cop would never have been in that situation if not for a very stupid tax and law.

['taterblast]

The police officer's actions led to his death.  However, I don't think his actions were sufficient to cause the death of a normal, healthy individual.  There is no way his hold cut off the supply of oxygen to the brain long enough to cause death.  Not defending the cop.  Just breaking down the film.

it would be helpful if we had a video tape of the victim desperately telling the policeman he couldn't breathe numerous times

[Spracne]

The police officer's actions led to his death.  However, I don't think his actions were sufficient to cause the death of a normal, healthy individual.  There is no way his hold cut off the supply of oxygen to the brain long enough to cause death.  Not defending the cop.  Just breaking down the film.

it would be helpful if we had a video tape of the victim desperately telling the policeman he couldn't breathe numerous times

Why?

[Dugout DickStone]

The police officer's actions led to his death.  However, I don't think his actions were sufficient to cause the death of a normal, healthy individual.  There is no way his hold cut off the supply of oxygen to the brain long enough to cause death.  Not defending the cop.  Just breaking down the film.

I guess we will never know how the guy who was being choked aggressively died.  Could have been cancer I guess.  No need to perform an autopsy.

[Fedor]

The police officer's actions led to his death.  However, I don't think his actions were sufficient to cause the death of a normal, healthy individual.  There is no way his hold cut off the supply of oxygen to the brain long enough to cause death.  Not defending the cop.  Just breaking down the film.

I guess we will never know how the guy who was being choked aggressively died.  Could have been cancer I guess.  No need to perform an autopsy.

I though I heard somewhere that he had asthma.  Mrs. Fedor, who is an expert in such matters, commented "How did he die of from that?" when watching the video.  Also Mrs. Fedor stated that people with breathing issues are put in greater danger when handcuffed with their hands behind them and laying on their chest.