Author Topic: Israel - Hamas peace process  (Read 113955 times)

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Offline bucket

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1575 on: February 17, 2025, 01:25:57 PM »
Dax criticized Biden for genocide and then proposes Trump engage in genocide? Did I get that right?

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1576 on: February 17, 2025, 01:29:04 PM »
Dax criticized Biden for genocide and then proposes Trump engage in genocide? Did I get that right?

Where's the genocide part to what Pete said, bucket?


Offline bucket

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1577 on: February 17, 2025, 02:05:41 PM »
Are we talking about kicking them out of Gaza or did I misinterpret you two?

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1578 on: February 17, 2025, 03:14:50 PM »
Are we talking about kicking them out of Gaza or did I misinterpret you two?
That’s the Trump plan. The Arab states are apparently trying to come up with an alternative.

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1579 on: February 17, 2025, 03:16:58 PM »
What is the Arab world going to do Pete?
I kinda doubt that they can agree on anything, but my guess would be maybe a coalition of Arab counties contributing to security forces in Gaza to maintain order and ostensibly “keep Hamas out.” which I’m certain that the conservative Jews would oppose.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1580 on: February 17, 2025, 03:48:32 PM »
Let the record show that bucket and lick consider living breathing Palestinians inhabiting other parts of the world besides Gaza as being on the same level as having 2000 pound bombs dropped on them in Gaza.

Thus in their very simple mind both are a “genocide”.

This is fascinating since both had no similar crocodile tears for say the people of Libya and Syria.  Two nations subjected to US backed regime change.


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Offline wetwillie

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1581 on: February 17, 2025, 05:52:34 PM »
If you don't let the original inhabitants back in after you clean it up but let other people in, that's mumped up. Not genocide but still real shitty policy/behavior.   Not something the US should do.
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Offline bucket

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1582 on: February 17, 2025, 05:56:53 PM »
If you don't let the original inhabitants back in after you clean it up but let other people in, that's mumped up. Not genocide but still real shitty policy/behavior.   Not something the US should do.

Ya, I overstepped. I shouldn't post while I'm working.

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1583 on: February 17, 2025, 07:02:15 PM »
Let the record show that bucket and lick consider living breathing Palestinians inhabiting other parts of the world besides Gaza as being on the same level as having 2000 pound bombs dropped on them in Gaza.

Thus in their very simple mind both are a “genocide”.

This is fascinating since both had no similar crocodile tears for say the people of Libya and Syria.  Two nations subjected to US backed regime change.


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Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous.

Offline Pete

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Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1584 on: February 17, 2025, 10:17:00 PM »
Let the record show that bucket and lick consider living breathing Palestinians inhabiting other parts of the world besides Gaza as being on the same level as having 2000 pound bombs dropped on them in Gaza.

Thus in their very simple mind both are a “genocide”.

This is fascinating since both had no similar crocodile tears for say the people of Libya and Syria.  Two nations subjected to US backed regime change.


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Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous.
Is it a spectrum, or are all types of ethnic cleansing equally as bad?

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1585 on: February 17, 2025, 10:21:02 PM »
Let the record show that bucket and lick consider living breathing Palestinians inhabiting other parts of the world besides Gaza as being on the same level as having 2000 pound bombs dropped on them in Gaza.

Thus in their very simple mind both are a “genocide”.

This is fascinating since both had no similar crocodile tears for say the people of Libya and Syria.  Two nations subjected to US backed regime change.


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Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous.
Is it a spectrum, or are all types of ethnic cleansing equally as bad?
And all are bad and shouldn’t be done. I’d rather be relocated than be starved and/or murdered tho.

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1586 on: February 17, 2025, 10:23:08 PM »
Let the record show that bucket and lick consider living breathing Palestinians inhabiting other parts of the world besides Gaza as being on the same level as having 2000 pound bombs dropped on them in Gaza.

Thus in their very simple mind both are a “genocide”.

This is fascinating since both had no similar crocodile tears for say the people of Libya and Syria.  Two nations subjected to US backed regime change.


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Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous.
Is it a spectrum, or are all types of ethnic cleansing equally as bad?

Like, try to not get to the position where you're doing the "less bad" ethnic cleansing

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1587 on: February 17, 2025, 10:23:26 PM »
My connection with the land of my birth is likely not as strong as theirs. It would be difficult to imagine, but I’d be willing to leave Kansas and move to Canada rather than suffering more in Kansas.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1588 on: February 17, 2025, 10:38:15 PM »
Pete I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that if things have gotten into “is this a genocide?” Territory then it doesn’t really matter if it’s a spectrum, you’re already deep into the bad end of that spectrum.

Philosophically, tho, you raise an interesting question. Like say for instance you have a serial killer. And he has killed 200 people and all of them are Jewish. Clearly he has a deep hatred in his heart for Jewish people. And for a single individual to murder 200 ppl would arguably make that person the most prolific serial killer of all time. But is 200 enough for things to be well on their way towards a genocide? Can we really put him in the same conversation with hitler? I mean I would guess that hitler did not personally fire 200 bullets into 200 skulls

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1589 on: February 18, 2025, 12:39:02 AM »
My connection with the land of my birth is likely not as strong as theirs. It would be difficult to imagine, but I’d be willing to leave Kansas and move to Canada rather than suffering more in Kansas.

I think it's a pretty bold assumption that life will be easier for Gazans if they leave Gaza. I mean, they might not be getting bombed every day but they weren't necessarily bombed every day in Gaza before October 6. And that's saying nothing about the community they might have had before and after displacement

And you kind of hint at this but I'm guessing you would feel differently if you weren't already living on stolen land. Like if you were Scottish and forced to move from Scotland to Canada, it would be way different than moving from Kansas
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 12:44:07 AM by michigancat »

Offline 114Hickory

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1590 on: February 18, 2025, 07:23:46 AM »
This is the accepted and ratified definition (criteria) used to identify genocide (the term coined by Rafael Lemkin):

DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE IN THE CONVENTION:

The current definition of Genocide is set out in Article II of the Genocide Convention: Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group; (c)
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The land and historical connection to a geographical region is woven into the cultural identity of some people groups (e.g. indigenous populations in North America, etc.).  Forced displacement can easily fit b or c (and potentially d depending on how children may be assimilated into another people group).  Much of what follows is written specfically with North American Indigenous populations in mind but I believe, historically, most Middle Eastern populations share many of the characteristics.

'Moreover such nonhuman actors are also potential participants in a group’s identity formation and therefore, in some cases, inseparable from the group itself. For example, the role of story in many Indigenous cultures is to connect identity to territory in a manner that makes any assault on the territory, or the stories that sustain the Indigenous group’s connection to territory, an assault upon the group itself" (Cruickshank, 1998).

Duncan Campbell Scott, in 1920 proclaimed, “Our objective is . . . to get rid of the Indian problem” (Titley,  1986).  It's not a reach to recognize this same sentiment regarding Israel-Hamas "our objective is . . . to get rid of the Palestinian problem."

Similarly, Richard Henry Pratt (superintendent of an "Indian" School) said “kill the Indian in him, and save the man.”  Again, this can easily be seen in the implied "kill the Palestinian in him, and save the man."  This is social engineering at it's finest!  As Bauman (1989) said "Modern genocide is an element of social engineering."

It's forced displacement and assimilation (ethnocide). The U.S. and Canada have our own histories with this and I see threads of this in how, politically at least, the horrors in Gaza are depicted and how the "solutions" are being crafted.

"Interestingly issues of territorial occupation and conquest were present in the very first formulation of genocide as provided by Raphael Lemkin."  He "wrote that genocide involves “two phases”: first, the destruction of the targeted group’s “national pattern” and second, “the imposition of the national pattern of the oppressor” on the territory of the former. This oft-quoted passage explicates that genocide may be deeply bound up with colonizing processes as a particular form of conquest and occupation" (Curthoys and Docker, 2008).

"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups" (Lemkin, 1944).

"Lemkin equates genocide not with physical extermination but with the destruction of the collective life, the 'national pattern' of the group. This means that when he writes of the destruction of a group by genocide, he means the destruction of the sociocultural existence of the group, and not necessarily the physical destruction of its members."

TLDNR:  Genocide can, and has been, defined in ways that extend beyond the systematic, physical mass murder of a people group.  Forced displacement of Palestinians can, arguably, be considered another element demonstrating that what is happening in Gaza is indeed genocide.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 07:30:22 AM by 114Hickory »

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1591 on: February 18, 2025, 09:15:37 AM »
My connection with the land of my birth is likely not as strong as theirs. It would be difficult to imagine, but I’d be willing to leave Kansas and move to Canada rather than suffering more in Kansas.

I think it's a pretty bold assumption that life will be easier for Gazans if they leave Gaza. I mean, they might not be getting bombed every day but they weren't necessarily bombed every day in Gaza before October 6. And that's saying nothing about the community they might have had before and after displacement

And you kind of hint at this but I'm guessing you would feel differently if you weren't already living on stolen land. Like if you were Scottish and forced to move from Scotland to Canada, it would be way different than moving from Kansas

Isn't all land stolen land?  It is merely a question of recency, isn't it?

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1592 on: February 18, 2025, 09:21:25 AM »
Pete I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that if things have gotten into “is this a genocide?” Territory then it doesn’t really matter if it’s a spectrum, you’re already deep into the bad end of that spectrum.

Philosophically, tho, you raise an interesting question. Like say for instance you have a serial killer. And he has killed 200 people and all of them are Jewish. Clearly he has a deep hatred in his heart for Jewish people. And for a single individual to murder 200 ppl would arguably make that person the most prolific serial killer of all time. But is 200 enough for things to be well on their way towards a genocide? Can we really put him in the same conversation with hitler? I mean I would guess that hitler did not personally fire 200 bullets into 200 skulls

Lenient application of the word Genocide is a bit like the wider application of the word Racism.  I read the book White Fragility, and it was very good, but a common criticism of the book (which I share) is that they insist on using the word Racist/Racism to apply to every type of biased behavior across the entire spectrum of human behavior in this category and it feels unfair and even purposefully hurtful and counter to the goal of unity and fairness.  So, the same word used for holding your purse a bit tighter as it is for hanging someone.  That typically results in a very aggressive push back from those whose behaviors you are interested in amending.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1593 on: February 18, 2025, 09:30:05 AM »
Yeah, as hicks said, that's how I am seeing it, this is new age Indian removal policy all over. And I would say what we did as a country, whether it was an armed conflict or not, was to destroy native culture.
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Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1594 on: February 18, 2025, 09:36:39 AM »
As an American, I shudder to think of how many "genocides" my tax dollars have supported, and how many more I turned a blind eye to over my lifetime. 

I'd argue that the entirely of human history is one of these after the other, over and over again.  Just google extinct civilizations, cultures and religions. I say that to put this in perspective. Is this closer to a singularly horrible human act that will reverberate in history as a cautionary tale, or is it closer to being a crap situation where tough decisions had to be made given the long standing evidenced negative behavior of the parties involved and reasonable expectations for their continued behavior based on that history?

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1595 on: February 18, 2025, 09:43:33 AM »
My connection with the land of my birth is likely not as strong as theirs. It would be difficult to imagine, but I’d be willing to leave Kansas and move to Canada rather than suffering more in Kansas.

I think it's a pretty bold assumption that life will be easier for Gazans if they leave Gaza. I mean, they might not be getting bombed every day but they weren't necessarily bombed every day in Gaza before October 6. And that's saying nothing about the community they might have had before and after displacement

And you kind of hint at this but I'm guessing you would feel differently if you weren't already living on stolen land. Like if you were Scottish and forced to move from Scotland to Canada, it would be way different than moving from Kansas

Isn't all land stolen land?  It is merely a question of recency, isn't it?

I think different cultures value their homeland/property differently. It isn't as simple as recency IMO.

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1596 on: February 18, 2025, 10:23:12 AM »
My connection with the land of my birth is likely not as strong as theirs. It would be difficult to imagine, but I’d be willing to leave Kansas and move to Canada rather than suffering more in Kansas.

I think it's a pretty bold assumption that life will be easier for Gazans if they leave Gaza. I mean, they might not be getting bombed every day but they weren't necessarily bombed every day in Gaza before October 6. And that's saying nothing about the community they might have had before and after displacement

And you kind of hint at this but I'm guessing you would feel differently if you weren't already living on stolen land. Like if you were Scottish and forced to move from Scotland to Canada, it would be way different than moving from Kansas

Isn't all land stolen land?  It is merely a question of recency, isn't it?

I think different cultures value their homeland/property differently. It isn't as simple as recency IMO.
I agree completely. Which, in a way, helps explain how no about of intervention seems to have worked around Israel. 

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1597 on: February 18, 2025, 10:28:34 AM »
As an American, I shudder to think of how many "genocides" my tax dollars have supported, and how many more I turned a blind eye to over my lifetime. 

I'd argue that the entirely of human history is one of these after the other, over and over again.  Just google extinct civilizations, cultures and religions. I say that to put this in perspective. Is this closer to a singularly horrible human act that will reverberate in history as a cautionary tale, or is it closer to being a crap situation where tough decisions had to be made given the long standing evidenced negative behavior of the parties involved and reasonable expectations for their continued behavior based on that history?

What is going on in Gaza is definitely the worst that I know much about in my lifetime. Maybe Rwanda was worse but I don't know much about it!

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1598 on: February 18, 2025, 11:25:25 AM »
As an American, I shudder to think of how many "genocides" my tax dollars have supported, and how many more I turned a blind eye to over my lifetime. 

I'd argue that the entirely of human history is one of these after the other, over and over again.  Just google extinct civilizations, cultures and religions. I say that to put this in perspective. Is this closer to a singularly horrible human act that will reverberate in history as a cautionary tale, or is it closer to being a crap situation where tough decisions had to be made given the long standing evidenced negative behavior of the parties involved and reasonable expectations for their continued behavior based on that history?

What is going on in Gaza is definitely the worst that I know much about in my lifetime. Maybe Rwanda was worse but I don't know much about it!
I would certainly rank the rape camps that Serbia deployed against Bosnia higher

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1599 on: February 18, 2025, 11:27:32 AM »
Quote

Over the past four decades, numerous egregious instances of genocide have occurred worldwide. Here are some of the most significant:
   1.   Rwandan Genocide (1994): In a span of approximately 100 days, an estimated 800,000 Tutsi and moderate Hutu were systematically slaughtered by extremist Hutu militias. The genocide was marked by widespread brutality and has been recognized as one of the most horrific mass murders in recent history. ?
   2.   Bosnian Genocide (1992–1995): During the Bosnian War, particularly in the Srebrenica massacre of July 1995, Bosnian Serb forces killed over 8,000 Bosniak men and boys. This atrocity has been labeled as genocide by international courts. ?
   3.   Darfur Genocide (2003–present): In the Darfur region of Sudan, the government and allied militias have engaged in a campaign against non-Arab populations, leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the displacement of millions. The conflict has been described as the first genocide of the 21st century. ?
   4.   Rohingya Genocide (2016–present): The Rohingya Muslim minority in Myanmar has faced systematic persecution, including mass killings, sexual violence, and forced displacement. These actions have been widely recognized as constituting genocide. ?
   5.   Yazidi Genocide (2014): The Islamic State (ISIS) targeted the Yazidi community in Iraq, committing mass killings, sexual enslavement, and forced conversions. This genocide led to significant loss of life and displacement. ?
   6.   Uyghur Genocide (2014–present): The Chinese government has been accused of committing genocide against the Uyghur Muslim minority in Xinjiang, involving mass detentions, forced labor, and cultural suppression. Several countries and human rights organizations have recognized these actions as genocidal. ?
   7.   Tigray Genocide (2020–present): In the Tigray region of Ethiopia, reports have emerged of mass killings, sexual violence, and forced displacement perpetrated by Ethiopian and allied forces against the Tigrayan population. These actions have been described as genocidal by various observers. ?

These events underscore the persistent and tragic recurrence of genocide in recent history, highlighting the critical need for international awareness and intervention to prevent such atrocities.