Israel - Hamas peace process

[LickNeckey]

had only the god of the people of Abraham given some guidance about the folly of reciprocal justice...

oh well

[Pete]

And symbolically allowing Israeli conservatives to declare a victory of sorts and speed up negotiations for a cease fire.

Let's grant that.

What is the thing that will happen that will end this war?

Netanyahu/Israel have said
1) unilateral return of hostages
2) complete destruction of Hamas

Neither of those have proven possible after a year militarily. Israel has said in exchange for the hostages they will offer a "pause" in the fighting. I'm not 100% sure what the latest count is, but I don't think these facts are in dispute:

1) Israel has freed by far the most hostages through negotiations
2) Israel has killed more hostages than they've freed by force

If Israel wants to declare victory, I would welcome it!

There is zero evidence for that being imminent, other than some Western ally wish casting.

As for if this allows Israel to finally defeat Hamas, I guess I don't even know what that means or how Israel would define it. Gallant had a quote today saying Gaza will be occupied for years to come. Who will rule Gaza? Seems like the idea is to make it completely uninhabitable so that it can be ethnically cleansed. If anyone has a simpler explanation or any kind of plan that has been communicated by the Israelis, I'd love to hear it.

I will not argue with any of this. I agree with you.

[Pete]

There really is no “destruction” of Hamas or Hezbollah without direct war with Iran and toppling Iran’s government.  I’m definitely not in favor of that, because that would be highly likely to motivate other opportunistic invasions by China, North Korea, and Russia while the West was spread thin.

Israel needs to take the symbolic W and chill, but their conservatives do seem highly unlikely to agree.

[wetwillie]

Ultimately they will do what the US allows them to do

[Pete]

I’m really just in this thread to provide “YES, AND” POV, for what it’s worth. Yes it’s bad that so many have been harmed, and it’s good that Hamas and Hezbollah are paying a heavy price.

Let’s not be doltish, and acknowledge both can be true.

[Pete]

I don’t think KK is suggesting Israel should have done nothing in response to the Hamas attack. I do suspect MichiganCat thinks so.

My position is that given that Iran and their proxies have called for nothing short of the full destruction of Israel and Jews, there can be no peace without massive demonstrations of power and retaliation….AND a 2 state solution. Iran and their proxies behavior is only modified by opposition force.

[michigancat]

I don’t think KK is suggesting Israel should have done nothing in response to the Hamas attack. I do suspect MichiganCat thinks so.

I don't think that at all. I'm questioning a) their goals with the retaliation and b) if the way they are retaliating are achieving their goals.

My position is that given that Iran and their proxies have called for nothing short of the full destruction of Israel and Jews, there can be no peace without massive demonstrations of power and retaliation….AND a 2 state solution. Iran and their proxies behavior is only modified by opposition force.

How would we know this? Have they ever dealt with Palestinians with anything but force since Israel was established?

I will say an all out war with Iran is probably more likely to resolve things one way or another than whatever path they are going down now.

[Trim]

Use the technology we used to create a hurricane and create a giant god character a la burning bush to hover over that whole region and say something that appeals to all religions and orders them all to chill and worship him (or her!) in a very understated and non-violent way.

[wetwillie]

Mich advocating for all out war with Iran was not on my bingo card

[michigancat]

Mich advocating for all out war with Iran was not on my bingo card

I do not think it is a good idea! Just more likely to lead to a resolution

[Pete]

I don’t think KK is suggesting Israel should have done nothing in response to the Hamas attack. I do suspect MichiganCat thinks so.

I don't think that at all. I'm questioning a) their goals with the retaliation and b) if the way they are retaliating are achieving their goals.

My position is that given that Iran and their proxies have called for nothing short of the full destruction of Israel and Jews, there can be no peace without massive demonstrations of power and retaliation….AND a 2 state solution. Iran and their proxies behavior is only modified by opposition force.

How would we know this? Have they ever dealt with Palestinians with anything but force since Israel was established?

I will say an all out war with Iran is probably more likely to resolve things one way or another than whatever path they are going down now.

I referenced Iran and their proxies and not Palestinians, unless you are suggesting that they are one and the same, you are misquoting me and changing the premise of my statement.

[Pete]

Iran and their proxies have clearly stated that their goal is not simply a Palestinian state. It is also the eradication of Israel.

[michigancat]

I don%u2019t think KK is suggesting Israel should have done nothing in response to the Hamas attack. I do suspect MichiganCat thinks so.

I don't think that at all. I'm questioning a) their goals with the retaliation and b) if the way they are retaliating are achieving their goals.

My position is that given that Iran and their proxies have called for nothing short of the full destruction of Israel and Jews, there can be no peace without massive demonstrations of power and retaliation%u2026.AND a 2 state solution. Iran and their proxies behavior is only modified by opposition force.

How would we know this? Have they ever dealt with Palestinians with anything but force since Israel was established?

I will say an all out war with Iran is probably more likely to resolve things one way or another than whatever path they are going down now.

I referenced Iran and their proxies and not Palestinians, unless you are suggesting that they are one and the same, you are misquoting me and changing the premise of my statement.

I mean in the case of Gaza and southern lebanon it seems like Israel considers them one and the same, but I get your point. My general point was that I don't think the proxies have nearly as much influence with Palestinians if Israel didn't treat Palestinians so terribly. But we'll probably never know. Both the chicken and the egg are out of the bag along with the cat or something.

[Pete]

I don%u2019t think KK is suggesting Israel should have done nothing in response to the Hamas attack. I do suspect MichiganCat thinks so.

I don't think that at all. I'm questioning a) their goals with the retaliation and b) if the way they are retaliating are achieving their goals.

My position is that given that Iran and their proxies have called for nothing short of the full destruction of Israel and Jews, there can be no peace without massive demonstrations of power and retaliation%u2026.AND a 2 state solution. Iran and their proxies behavior is only modified by opposition force.

How would we know this? Have they ever dealt with Palestinians with anything but force since Israel was established?

I will say an all out war with Iran is probably more likely to resolve things one way or another than whatever path they are going down now.

I referenced Iran and their proxies and not Palestinians, unless you are suggesting that they are one and the same, you are misquoting me and changing the premise of my statement.

I mean in the case of Gaza and southern lebanon it seems like Israel considers them one and the same, but I get your point. My general point was that I don't think the proxies have nearly as much influence with Palestinians if Israel didn't treat Palestinians so terribly. But we'll probably never know. Both the chicken and the egg are out of the bag along with the cat or something.

I agree with you and love you.

[michigancat]

I don%u2019t think KK is suggesting Israel should have done nothing in response to the Hamas attack. I do suspect MichiganCat thinks so.

I don't think that at all. I'm questioning a) their goals with the retaliation and b) if the way they are retaliating are achieving their goals.

My position is that given that Iran and their proxies have called for nothing short of the full destruction of Israel and Jews, there can be no peace without massive demonstrations of power and retaliation%u2026.AND a 2 state solution. Iran and their proxies behavior is only modified by opposition force.

How would we know this? Have they ever dealt with Palestinians with anything but force since Israel was established?

I will say an all out war with Iran is probably more likely to resolve things one way or another than whatever path they are going down now.

I referenced Iran and their proxies and not Palestinians, unless you are suggesting that they are one and the same, you are misquoting me and changing the premise of my statement.

I mean in the case of Gaza and southern lebanon it seems like Israel considers them one and the same, but I get your point. My general point was that I don't think the proxies have nearly as much influence with Palestinians if Israel didn't treat Palestinians so terribly. But we'll probably never know. Both the chicken and the egg are out of the bag along with the cat or something.

I agree with you and love you.

Love you too and appreciate the dialogue

[steve dave]

https://x.com/atrupar/status/1847354656273334780?s=46


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[Pete]

https://x.com/atrupar/status/1847354656273334780?s=46


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This is counter to what Dax says he would do. Misprint?

[sonofdaxjones]

What did I say Trump would do, Pete?

[sonofdaxjones]

Has Ben read the sternly written letter, yet?

[Pete]

What did I say Trump would do, Pete?

I thought you at least implied that Trump would be less likely to engage in furthering foreign unrest and risk of our involvement.

[nicname]

had only the god of the people of Abraham given some guidance about the folly of reciprocal justice...

oh well

 

[nicname]

Mich advocating for all out war with Iran was not on my bingo card

I do not think it is a good idea! Just more likely to lead to a resolution

Dick Cheney, and the ghosts of Don Rumsfeld and John McCain


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[sonofdaxjones]

Israel requesting a second THAAD battery . . . still wouldn't be in a combat zone, tho (Kamala Harris)

World at War: The Harris-Biden Years

[Pete]

Israel requesting a second THAAD battery . . . still wouldn't be in a combat zone, tho (Kamala Harris)

World at War: The Harris-Biden Years

Trump stated that Biden/Harris were not going far enough in blessing Israel’s targets for retaliation against Iran, so it looks like you’ll have to either change your mind or get use to even more of it if Trump wins.

[wetwillie]

World at War: The Trump-Vance years has a nice ring to it.