Israel - Hamas peace process

[sonofdaxjones]

Don't always agree with what Israel does.   But they're pretty much the only bastion of democracy, a semblance of religious freedom and equal rights (by and large) in the Middle East .   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

There is a definite military and strategic reason for the Israeli offensive into Gaza. They are attempting to destroy weapons and an elaborate tunnel network used to shelter the weapons, leaders, and infiltrate Israel.

And in addition to not firing rockets into Israel, the Gazan palestinians should probably also not elect a terrorist organization to lead them.

[Emo EMAW]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

There is a definite military and strategic reason for the Israeli offensive into Gaza. They are attempting to destroy weapons and an elaborate tunnel network used to shelter the weapons, leaders, and infiltrate Israel.

And in addition to not firing rockets into Israel, the Gazan palestinians should probably also not elect a terrorist organization to lead them.

Do you think they expect it will be successful?  Do you think it will be successful?

[Kat Kid]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

Agreed.  What about the ones that don't?  What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.

As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?

[Kat Kid]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

There is a definite military and strategic reason for the Israeli offensive into Gaza. They are attempting to destroy weapons and an elaborate tunnel network used to shelter the weapons, leaders, and infiltrate Israel.

And in addition to not firing rockets into Israel, the Gazan palestinians should probably also not elect a terrorist organization to lead them.

Right.  Just like Americans should not have elected Obama (TWICE!), but we did and that means everyone there implicitly supports the government because they live there and haven't left.

[Emo EMAW]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

Agreed.  What about the ones that don't?  What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.

As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?

They are unfortunate collateral damage.  I don't think Israel wants to kill civilians (I don't think you think that, either).  When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there. 

As for the rest, yes, I do.  Unless there is some strong international pressure, presence, U.N., something like that, nothing will change, and Israel can't by themselves change that.  That's why I think they're trying to rile up the international community with this action. 

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

There is a definite military and strategic reason for the Israeli offensive into Gaza. They are attempting to destroy weapons and an elaborate tunnel network used to shelter the weapons, leaders, and infiltrate Israel.

And in addition to not firing rockets into Israel, the Gazan palestinians should probably also not elect a terrorist organization to lead them.

Right.  Just like Americans should not have elected Obama (TWICE!), but we did and that means everyone there implicitly supports the government because they live there and haven't left.

As much as I dislike Obama and his policies, I think comparing him to Hamas is a bit of a stretch. I think it's bad enough that a majority of palestinians support Hamas, even if not all of them do. And again, I'm simply answering your question about what the palestinians should do. Maybe before the next election, enough palestinians will say "Damn, I'm tired of living in squallor and getting bombed. Maybe I should stop voting for terrorists." That is, if they're not too busy talking about how proud they are of their "martyred" children.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

Agreed.  What about the ones that don't?  What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.

As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?

They are unfortunate collateral damage.  I don't think Israel wants to kill civilians (I don't think you think that, either).  When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there. 

As for the rest, yes, I do.  Unless there is some strong international pressure, presence, U.N., something like that, nothing will change, and Israel can't by themselves change that.  That's why I think they're trying to rile up the international community with this action.

[Kat Kid]

Speaking of terrible strategic thinking:

CNN Breaking News ?@cnnbrk  2h
FAA bans U.S. airlines from flying to or from Israel's Ben Gurion Airport for 24 hours, after nearby rocket. http://cnn.it/1ryoCzn

It is not Hamas' strong suit.

[felix rex]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

[Kat Kid]

Back to Israel for another depressing instance of what I'm talking about.  How is this at all helpful to the stated goal of deterring Palestinian radicalization?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html

HEBRON, West Bank — Said Kawasmeh received the order from Israel’s military last week. His two-story house was to be demolished, and his large family had 48 hours to leave.

Their crime: Kawasmeh’s son is a key suspect in the brutal kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers whose fates helped reignite the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

The son, Marwan, has disappeared. So Israel has zeroed in on his family.

“I built this house, and I own it,” lamented Kawasmeh, seated on a chair inside his empty house. Outside, the family’s possessions lay in boxes and shopping bags, or scattered on the ground. “Why do they want to punish me?”
....
The policy — different from Israel’s ongoing practice of destroying Palestinian structures it claims are unauthorized or built without valid permits — had been abandoned nine years ago because the military deemed it an ineffective deterrent against the Palestinian militancy.

[Emo EMAW]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

Unfortunate collateral damage

[Panjandrum]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

Agreed.  What about the ones that don't?  What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.

As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?

They are unfortunate collateral damage.  I don't think Israel wants to kill civilians (I don't think you think that, either).  When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there. 

As for the rest, yes, I do.  Unless there is some strong international pressure, presence, U.N., something like that, nothing will change, and Israel can't by themselves change that.  That's why I think they're trying to rile up the international community with this action.

Jesus, dude.  There are kids dying.

Where do you propose these folks go?

[Panjandrum]

That is, if they're not too busy talking about how proud they are of their "martyred" children.

I think that's a pretty gross generalization of how the majority of folks feel.

[Emo EMAW]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

Agreed.  What about the ones that don't?  What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.

As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?

They are unfortunate collateral damage.  I don't think Israel wants to kill civilians (I don't think you think that, either).  When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there. 

As for the rest, yes, I do.  Unless there is some strong international pressure, presence, U.N., something like that, nothing will change, and Israel can't by themselves change that.  That's why I think they're trying to rile up the international community with this action.

Jesus, dude.  There are kids dying.

Where do you propose these folks go?

If you're suggesting this is a humanitarian issue then I would urge international involvement.  Israel has the right to defend itself.  I don't see how that can be argued.

[felix rex]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

Unfortunate collateral damage

can't decide if parody so am disengaging

[Emo EMAW]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

Unfortunate collateral damage

can't decide if parody so am disengaging

Before disengage suggest an alternative?

[michigancat]

It's really just a reflection of your bad person.  Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience.  I prefer to go and see myself, when practical.  I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care.  Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything. 

Interacting with a small group of Israelis doesn't make you an expert on the origin of the conflict. I thought maybe you'd done some sort of research on the subject that goes beyond the IDF talking points fed to you by coworkers.

And you're wrong, discussions like this change opinions all the time. Just because you're a stubborn bad person who can't reasonably consider new or conflicting information doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

I don't purport to be an expert on the origin of the conflict.

When you post things like this, it definitely seems like you're trying to claim to be an expert on the situation:

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

[felix rex]

Back to Israel for another depressing instance of what I'm talking about.  How is this at all helpful to the stated goal of deterring Palestinian radicalization?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html

HEBRON, West Bank — Said Kawasmeh received the order from Israel’s military last week. His two-story house was to be demolished, and his large family had 48 hours to leave.

Their crime: Kawasmeh’s son is a key suspect in the brutal kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers whose fates helped reignite the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

The son, Marwan, has disappeared. So Israel has zeroed in on his family.

“I built this house, and I own it,” lamented Kawasmeh, seated on a chair inside his empty house. Outside, the family’s possessions lay in boxes and shopping bags, or scattered on the ground. “Why do they want to punish me?”
....
The policy — different from Israel’s ongoing practice of destroying Palestinian structures it claims are unauthorized or built without valid permits — had been abandoned nine years ago because the military deemed it an ineffective deterrent against the Palestinian militancy.

On a side note, Palestinians are posting this same article as an example of pro-Israel bias in the US press:



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Kat Kid]

Yes!  The constant headline butthurt is very annoying on twitter.

[Spracne]

Trying unsuccessfully to get into this thread makes me realize I just don't care all that much about Israel/Gaza.

[felix rex]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

Unfortunate collateral damage

can't decide if parody so am disengaging

Before disengage suggest an alternative?

"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

Unfortunate collateral damage

can't decide if parody so am disengaging

Before disengage suggest an alternative?

"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).

They could take cover in a bomb shelter or tunnel. Oh wait, Hamas is too busy spending it's money on tunnels to build any bomb shelter, and the tunnels are strictly for Hamas business (stashing weapons, hiding Hamas, and infiltrating Israel).

In fact, Hamas encourages palestinains not to take cover. They want the collateral damage. Israel tries to minimize collateral damage by dropping leaflets and warning charges (roof knockers, I think they're called) before bombing. In response, Hamas posts things like this:

"Answering the occupation's [Israel's] calls will merely aid it in carrying out its plans to weaken the [Palestinian] home front and to destroy property and homes as soon as you leave them. We call on all our people who have left their homes to return to them immediately."

Facebook page of Hamas Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum

[felix rex]

If you didn't watch the IDF video, just say so. Sheesh.

[Kat Kid]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

Unfortunate collateral damage

can't decide if parody so am disengaging

Before disengage suggest an alternative?

"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).

They could take cover in a bomb shelter or tunnel. Oh wait, Hamas is too busy spending it's money on tunnels to build any bomb shelter, and the tunnels are strictly for Hamas business (stashing weapons, hiding Hamas, and infiltrating Israel).

In fact, Hamas encourages palestinains not to take cover. They want the collateral damage. Israel tries to minimize collateral damage by dropping leaflets and warning charges (roof knockers, I think they're called) before bombing. In response, Hamas posts things like this:

"Answering the occupation's [Israel's] calls will merely aid it in carrying out its plans to weaken the [Palestinian] home front and to destroy property and homes as soon as you leave them. We call on all our people who have left their homes to return to them immediately."

Facebook page of Hamas Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum

Wait, so then what are they supposed to do?