Israel - Hamas peace process

[Dugout DickStone]

Did you know Israel is getting bombed? Did you know the Jews have been on the run for 2 centuries? Your rhetoric ignores the reality they've been living for hundreds of generations.

The rocket attacks are bad, no doubt about it.  They are also a huge improvement over the constant actual bombings during the second intifada.  The security wall has brought temporary peace, Iron Dome has brought some measure of relief, but it is ultimately a political problem that needs strategic political thinking.

Israel is not weak and Jews can make their home in the US or Israel and enjoy an incredibly free and open expression of their faith (voted most popular religious group by Pew poll respondents in 2014!).  There is no doubt that there are parts of Europe where you cannot say the same thing and anti-Semitism should absolutely be called out.  But I think it is counter productive to claim that Jewish people are currently "on the run" if that is what you are doing.

Says the guy who's not having rockets fired at his house. I guess that helps you be objective though.

I have not ever had a rocket fired at my house.  I also have never played professional baseball or had a #1 hit single but I still have opinions about those things too. 

Nice. I'd love to see a video of you going door to door in a settlement near Gaza (between rocket launches) telling Israelis that they need to be more strategic!

Sounds like the Israelis need to focus on stopping the palestinians from getting weapons instead of stifling commerce with blockades, inspections, etc. Evidently, the rockets are being grown organically in the converted greenhouses. Who knew?

You could say the same about going door to door and telling the Palestinians who are burying their kids, "just leave Israel alone and enjoy your greenhouse"

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Did you know Israel is getting bombed? Did you know the Jews have been on the run for 2 centuries? Your rhetoric ignores the reality they've been living for hundreds of generations.

The rocket attacks are bad, no doubt about it.  They are also a huge improvement over the constant actual bombings during the second intifada.  The security wall has brought temporary peace, Iron Dome has brought some measure of relief, but it is ultimately a political problem that needs strategic political thinking.

Israel is not weak and Jews can make their home in the US or Israel and enjoy an incredibly free and open expression of their faith (voted most popular religious group by Pew poll respondents in 2014!).  There is no doubt that there are parts of Europe where you cannot say the same thing and anti-Semitism should absolutely be called out.  But I think it is counter productive to claim that Jewish people are currently "on the run" if that is what you are doing.

Says the guy who's not having rockets fired at his house. I guess that helps you be objective though.

I have not ever had a rocket fired at my house.  I also have never played professional baseball or had a #1 hit single but I still have opinions about those things too. 

Nice. I'd love to see a video of you going door to door in a settlement near Gaza (between rocket launches) telling Israelis that they need to be more strategic!

Sounds like the Israelis need to focus on stopping the palestinians from getting weapons instead of stifling commerce with blockades, inspections, etc. Evidently, the rockets are being grown organically in the converted greenhouses. Who knew?

You could say the same about going door to door and telling the Palestinians who are burying their kids, "just leave Israel alone and enjoy your greenhouse"

The problem with doing that is I'd get my head lopped off for being a Jew-loving American. The palestinians can have peace with Israel whenever they want - but they don't want Israel period. That's the problem. You can't compromise with that.

[Emo EMAW]

The fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate.  That some of you side with a bunch of barbarians over an intelligent, educated, innovative people is appalling.  If 1) Israel is able to spend less on national defense, and 2) the subsidy for Hasidic Jews is terminated, they cure cancer before anyone else. 

[michigancat]

The fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate. 

it proves they have received a lot of foreign aid that helped them build a strong military, but I'm not sure it proves they are "right".

[Emo EMAW]

The fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate. 

it proves they have received a lot of foreign aid that helped them build a strong military, but I'm not sure it proves they are "right".

Oh c'mon, how many other democratic nations with a strong military have forced enlistment?  They have earned their military might (which is regional, at best, and only because the Arab states are laughably unorganized).  In a World Cup of strategic conflict, Israel might not even qualify for the tournament, and certainly doesn't make it past the group stage.  Either way, it's not like they hold some sort of leverage card that forces people to give them aid.  They have no natural resources or keystone industries.  It's just righteousness, brilliance, and innovation.  That's all they have, and kudos to them for defending it like a wolverine backed into a corner, which is essentially their predicament. 

[michigancat]

uh, ok 

[felix rex]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are both pretty much dicks.

[Panjandrum]

The fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate. 

it proves they have received a lot of foreign aid that helped them build a strong military, but I'm not sure it proves they are "right".

Oh c'mon, how many other democratic nations with a strong military have forced enlistment?  They have earned their military might (which is regional, at best, and only because the Arab states are laughably unorganized).  In a World Cup of strategic conflict, Israel might not even qualify for the tournament, and certainly doesn't make it past the group stage.  Either way, it's not like they hold some sort of leverage card that forces people to give them aid.  They have no natural resources or keystone industries. It's just righteousness, brilliance, and innovation.  That's all they have, and kudos to them for defending it like a wolverine backed into a corner, which is essentially their predicament.

You serious, Clark?

[Panjandrum]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are both pretty much dicks.

That wouldn't fit the established narrative.

Duh.

[michigancat]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are both pretty much dicks.

seems reasonable

[Kat Kid]

Emo certainly has a lot of feels and most times that is good enough for foreign policy absolutes.

[Emo EMAW]

Emo certainly has a lot of feels and most times that is good enough for foreign policy absolutes.

Lobbing judgement from 20,000 miles away is preferred, I guess.  Go look see sometime.

[Kat Kid]

No, I concede.  You clearly know way more about it.  How can I argue with someone that has actually been there and has taken a 5 minute Dennis Prager online YouTube university class?

[Emo EMAW]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

[michigancat]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.

Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?

[Emo EMAW]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.

Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?

Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.

[Kat Kid]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

[Kat Kid]

I'm not being sarcastic either.  I think those are the really important questions.

[michigancat]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.

Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?

Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.

why are you such an bad person sometimes?

[Rage Against the McKee]

Sometimes?

Just kidding Emo. Well, mostly.

[Emo EMAW]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I don't have any pre-reqs.  I just am evaluating the opinions as given.  I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.

I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone.  I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes.  I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason.  I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them.  It will happen no matter what they do.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are both pretty much dicks.

I would be a massive dick towards the people constantly trying to blow me up.

[Emo EMAW]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.

Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?

Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.

why are you such an bad person sometimes?

It's really just a reflection of your bad person.  Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience.  I prefer to go and see myself, when practical.  I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care.  Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything. 

[michigancat]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.

Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?

Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.

why are you such an bad person sometimes?

It's really just a reflection of your bad person.  Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience.  I prefer to go and see myself, when practical.  I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care.  Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything. 

Interacting with a small group of Israelis doesn't make you an expert on the origin of the conflict. I thought maybe you'd done some sort of research on the subject that goes beyond the IDF talking points fed to you by coworkers. I mean, what if you worked with the Israeli equivalent of ednksu or K-S-U? Can you imagine?

And you're wrong, discussions like this change opinions all the time. Just because you're a stubborn bad person who can't reasonably consider new or conflicting information doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

[Emo EMAW]

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.

Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?

Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.

why are you such an bad person sometimes?

It's really just a reflection of your bad person.  Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience.  I prefer to go and see myself, when practical.  I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care.  Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything. 

Interacting with a small group of Israelis doesn't make you an expert on the origin of the conflict. I thought maybe you'd done some sort of research on the subject that goes beyond the IDF talking points fed to you by coworkers.

And you're wrong, discussions like this change opinions all the time. Just because you're a stubborn bad person who can't reasonably consider new or conflicting information doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

I don't purport to be an expert on the origin of the conflict.  Do you?  Is actually going someplace and talking to people a valid way of perceiving the world?  If you don't think so, by all means hole up in your flat, put the kids to bed and read a book, and then remind everyone you know that their experiences and opinions are invalid because one time you read a book.  That doesn't make you an bad person at all.