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Wow this topic really zoomed!I don't hunt the federal land I used to hunt anymore on account of the wind development and the non-existent quail population there. FWIW, it's not just wind, oil and gas development, too. I can't believe some of you dumbasses think that quail fly into the turbines. The development hurts the population because it brings activity to areas where they like to nest and rear chicks. Birds are pushed out by the noise of the turbines, the activity from the service men and vehicles, etc. The lesser prairie chicken, recently added to the federal endangered list, won't nest within view of a tall structure. Some people believe it's because they are wary of potential roosting sites for raptors, but no one really knows. We do know that if you put up wind mills in lesser PC habitat it will force them out. Because their habitat is so fragmented it really means they are being extirpated from those areas, likely forever. A lot of the same is going on with regards to sage grouse in the west. O&G and wind pushing them out. Hunters do contribute more money to conserve habitat than all other special interest groups combined. It's not even close. Between hidden taxes, license fees, activity and donations in conservation groups, it really adds up. That's not even considering the commercial aspect. People pay big money for good bird hunting leases, too. Even at $12k a year I can't afford a good one. And that's why I spent 2 weeks a year out west where the public land is plentiful and development is fragmented. Although even up there in 5 years going we've lost spots to O&G. Places we used to move 5 coveys in an hour walk now maybe hold 10% of the birds they used to. Most of you probably don't care about some of these specific species that are affected. Even I am conflicted at times about some of them. But a precedent has been set (long ago) that it's okay to destroy public lands for the greater public good, and that's not right. Something to consider about wind energy...Denmark has really dove head first into it. Something like 30% of their power comes from wind. It's only a country of 5 million people, so not that big anyway, but still. Wind there enjoys a subsidy exceeding 30%. And it's been a massive failure to the citizenry. But companies have profited tons from the industry. It's basically been a way to funnel public funds to private companies. There is likely corruption, not unlike what we've seen here with O&G, cattle, etc. If it can't work in Denmark at something like 25 cents a kilowatt*hour, then it sure as crap won't work here at 10 cents a kilowatt*hour. But GE will certainly make money (and won't pay any taxes on it, either).
Quote from: Emo EMAW on May 08, 2014, 09:24:27 AMWow this topic really zoomed!I don't hunt the federal land I used to hunt anymore on account of the wind development and the non-existent quail population there. FWIW, it's not just wind, oil and gas development, too. I can't believe some of you dumbasses think that quail fly into the turbines. The development hurts the population because it brings activity to areas where they like to nest and rear chicks. Birds are pushed out by the noise of the turbines, the activity from the service men and vehicles, etc. The lesser prairie chicken, recently added to the federal endangered list, won't nest within view of a tall structure. Some people believe it's because they are wary of potential roosting sites for raptors, but no one really knows. We do know that if you put up wind mills in lesser PC habitat it will force them out. Because their habitat is so fragmented it really means they are being extirpated from those areas, likely forever. A lot of the same is going on with regards to sage grouse in the west. O&G and wind pushing them out. Hunters do contribute more money to conserve habitat than all other special interest groups combined. It's not even close. Between hidden taxes, license fees, activity and donations in conservation groups, it really adds up. That's not even considering the commercial aspect. People pay big money for good bird hunting leases, too. Even at $12k a year I can't afford a good one. And that's why I spent 2 weeks a year out west where the public land is plentiful and development is fragmented. Although even up there in 5 years going we've lost spots to O&G. Places we used to move 5 coveys in an hour walk now maybe hold 10% of the birds they used to. Most of you probably don't care about some of these specific species that are affected. Even I am conflicted at times about some of them. But a precedent has been set (long ago) that it's okay to destroy public lands for the greater public good, and that's not right. Something to consider about wind energy...Denmark has really dove head first into it. Something like 30% of their power comes from wind. It's only a country of 5 million people, so not that big anyway, but still. Wind there enjoys a subsidy exceeding 30%. And it's been a massive failure to the citizenry. But companies have profited tons from the industry. It's basically been a way to funnel public funds to private companies. There is likely corruption, not unlike what we've seen here with O&G, cattle, etc. If it can't work in Denmark at something like 25 cents a kilowatt*hour, then it sure as crap won't work here at 10 cents a kilowatt*hour. But GE will certainly make money (and won't pay any taxes on it, either).I'm on board with pretty much all you said here. My issue is the absurdity of attacking wind and solar while ignoring the ecological devastation wrought by the status quo.
Quote from: puniraptor on May 08, 2014, 09:44:49 AMQuote from: Emo EMAW on May 08, 2014, 09:24:27 AMWow this topic really zoomed!I don't hunt the federal land I used to hunt anymore on account of the wind development and the non-existent quail population there. FWIW, it's not just wind, oil and gas development, too. I can't believe some of you dumbasses think that quail fly into the turbines. The development hurts the population because it brings activity to areas where they like to nest and rear chicks. Birds are pushed out by the noise of the turbines, the activity from the service men and vehicles, etc. The lesser prairie chicken, recently added to the federal endangered list, won't nest within view of a tall structure. Some people believe it's because they are wary of potential roosting sites for raptors, but no one really knows. We do know that if you put up wind mills in lesser PC habitat it will force them out. Because their habitat is so fragmented it really means they are being extirpated from those areas, likely forever. A lot of the same is going on with regards to sage grouse in the west. O&G and wind pushing them out. Hunters do contribute more money to conserve habitat than all other special interest groups combined. It's not even close. Between hidden taxes, license fees, activity and donations in conservation groups, it really adds up. That's not even considering the commercial aspect. People pay big money for good bird hunting leases, too. Even at $12k a year I can't afford a good one. And that's why I spent 2 weeks a year out west where the public land is plentiful and development is fragmented. Although even up there in 5 years going we've lost spots to O&G. Places we used to move 5 coveys in an hour walk now maybe hold 10% of the birds they used to. Most of you probably don't care about some of these specific species that are affected. Even I am conflicted at times about some of them. But a precedent has been set (long ago) that it's okay to destroy public lands for the greater public good, and that's not right. Something to consider about wind energy...Denmark has really dove head first into it. Something like 30% of their power comes from wind. It's only a country of 5 million people, so not that big anyway, but still. Wind there enjoys a subsidy exceeding 30%. And it's been a massive failure to the citizenry. But companies have profited tons from the industry. It's basically been a way to funnel public funds to private companies. There is likely corruption, not unlike what we've seen here with O&G, cattle, etc. If it can't work in Denmark at something like 25 cents a kilowatt*hour, then it sure as crap won't work here at 10 cents a kilowatt*hour. But GE will certainly make money (and won't pay any taxes on it, either).I'm on board with pretty much all you said here. My issue is the absurdity of attacking wind and solar while ignoring the ecological devastation wrought by the status quo.I am assuming the purpose of this thread is to point out the hypocrisy of the left. They will go to great extremes to stop an oil or gas well from being drilled because a lizard lives around it somewhere, yet they will fill the skies with eagle and condor execution machines.
Quote from: Emo EMAW on May 08, 2014, 09:24:27 AMWow this topic really zoomed!I don't hunt the federal land I used to hunt anymore on account of the wind development and the non-existent quail population there. FWIW, it's not just wind, oil and gas development, too. I can't believe some of you dumbasses think that quail fly into the turbines. The development hurts the population because it brings activity to areas where they like to nest and rear chicks. Birds are pushed out by the noise of the turbines, the activity from the service men and vehicles, etc. The lesser prairie chicken, recently added to the federal endangered list, won't nest within view of a tall structure. Some people believe it's because they are wary of potential roosting sites for raptors, but no one really knows. We do know that if you put up wind mills in lesser PC habitat it will force them out. Because their habitat is so fragmented it really means they are being extirpated from those areas, likely forever. A lot of the same is going on with regards to sage grouse in the west. O&G and wind pushing them out. Hunters do contribute more money to conserve habitat than all other special interest groups combined. It's not even close. Between hidden taxes, license fees, activity and donations in conservation groups, it really adds up. That's not even considering the commercial aspect. People pay big money for good bird hunting leases, too. Even at $12k a year I can't afford a good one. And that's why I spent 2 weeks a year out west where the public land is plentiful and development is fragmented. Although even up there in 5 years going we've lost spots to O&G. Places we used to move 5 coveys in an hour walk now maybe hold 10% of the birds they used to. Most of you probably don't care about some of these specific species that are affected. Even I am conflicted at times about some of them. But a precedent has been set (long ago) that it's okay to destroy public lands for the greater public good, and that's not right. Something to consider about wind energy...Denmark has really dove head first into it. Something like 30% of their power comes from wind. It's only a country of 5 million people, so not that big anyway, but still. Wind there enjoys a subsidy exceeding 30%. And it's been a massive failure to the citizenry. But companies have profited tons from the industry. It's basically been a way to funnel public funds to private companies. There is likely corruption, not unlike what we've seen here with O&G, cattle, etc. If it can't work in Denmark at something like 25 cents a kilowatt*hour, then it sure as crap won't work here at 10 cents a kilowatt*hour. But GE will certainly make money (and won't pay any taxes on it, either).Don't you and your wife live in a four bedroom house with acreage in the exurbs?
The birds and hunters won't have to worry about the birds running into turbines when climate change kills all the grain that they eat here in the midwest.
My point was you shouldn't get all sanctimonious about ruining your precious hunting ground when you consume way more electricity, gasoline, and land than you need to.
Quote from: michigancat on May 08, 2014, 02:25:48 PMMy point was you shouldn't get all sanctimonious about ruining your precious hunting ground when you consume way more electricity, gasoline, and land than you need to.It's no worse than demanding electricity without knowing where it came from or what harm had been done to create it in the first place.
Quote from: Emo EMAW on May 08, 2014, 02:50:33 PMQuote from: michigancat on May 08, 2014, 02:25:48 PMMy point was you shouldn't get all sanctimonious about ruining your precious hunting ground when you consume way more electricity, gasoline, and land than you need to.It's no worse than demanding electricity without knowing where it came from or what harm had been done to create it in the first place. No, it's definitely worse.
"Oil and gas, bad! Wind and solar, good!"
Quote from: Emo EMAW on May 08, 2014, 02:56:07 PM"Oil and gas, bad! Wind and solar, good!"You've got it.
i'm actually working out here right now. funny to see it make goEMAW.
Quote from: sys on May 07, 2014, 06:58:08 PMi'm actually working out here right now. funny to see it make goEMAW.i was kinda hoping someone would ask for deets.
