Author Topic: Responsible gun owner protects personal property (Read 123096 times)

sys · « **Reply #276 on:** July 25, 2014, 07:39:22 PM »

Quote from: 8manpick on July 25, 2014, 03:56:06 PM

If Adams goes away for murder that is really stupid, regardless of whether it is standard or not

are you one of the libtards that has argued that people should held responsible if their gun is used in a crime, involved in an accident, etc?

i know posters in this thread have, but i don't want to make assumptions. also don't want to go back and look.

8manpick · « **Reply #277 on:** July 25, 2014, 07:42:29 PM »

No. Adams is the other robber, right? He is a bad guy, and I get that, but he isn't a murderer. He wasn't part of planning a murder, and he didn't murder anyone, so he shouldn't be charged with murder.

sys · « **Reply #278 on:** July 25, 2014, 07:43:52 PM »

Quote from: 8manpick on July 25, 2014, 07:42:29 PM

No. Adams is the other robber, right? He is a bad guy, and I get that, but he isn't a murderer. He wasn't part of planning a murder, and he didn't murder anyone, so he shouldn't be charged with murder.

that's too bad, would have been a nice gotcha moment if you were one of them. oh well.

8manpick · « **Reply #279 on:** July 25, 2014, 07:59:51 PM »

Quote from: sys on July 25, 2014, 07:43:52 PM

Quote from: 8manpick on July 25, 2014, 07:42:29 PM
No. Adams is the other robber, right? He is a bad guy, and I get that, but he isn't a murderer. He wasn't part of planning a murder, and he didn't murder anyone, so he shouldn't be charged with murder.

that's too bad, would have been a nice gotcha moment if you were one of them. oh well.

Ha, that's fair

SdK · « **Reply #280 on:** July 25, 2014, 08:09:18 PM »

Quote from: sys on July 25, 2014, 07:39:22 PM

Quote from: 8manpick on July 25, 2014, 03:56:06 PM
If Adams goes away for murder that is really stupid, regardless of whether it is standard or not

are you one of the libtards that has argued that people should held responsible if their gun is used in a crime, involved in an accident, etc?

i know posters in this thread have, but i don't want to make assumptions. also don't want to go back and look.

I was one those people and I don't see how my thinking with one has to do with thinking Adams shouldn't be held responsible for the murder of the girl.

I would agree that if the girl had shot the old man, Adams should he held accountable for murder though.

sys · « **Reply #281 on:** July 25, 2014, 08:19:20 PM »

Quote from: Sundance»¤«Kid on July 25, 2014, 08:09:18 PM

I was one those people and I don't see how my thinking with one has to do with thinking Adams shouldn't be held responsible for the murder of the girl.

responsibility for consequences of one's decisions. regardless of intent or probability of the result.

SdK · « **Reply #282 on:** July 25, 2014, 08:25:17 PM »

Quote from: sys on July 25, 2014, 08:19:20 PM

Quote from: Sundance»¤«Kid on July 25, 2014, 08:09:18 PM
I was one those people and I don't see how my thinking with one has to do with thinking Adams shouldn't be held responsible for the murder of the girl.

responsibility for consequences of one's decisions. regardless of intent or probability of the result.

With no separation between the group you are with and the group you are not with? I can agree with consequences for the group you associated with but cannot see being punished for a mishap that befalls a comrade.

Should friends of a girl/guy who gets raped at a party they are all at also be charged as rapists for merely attending the party where rape is possible?

SdK · « **Reply #283 on:** July 25, 2014, 08:26:51 PM »

To speak to this, on the flip side, I have stopped many a guy from intentionally getting a girl wasted with the intent of sleeping with her, had I not I feel like I'd be aiding in a rape.

sys · « **Reply #284 on:** July 25, 2014, 08:47:27 PM »

Quote from: Sundance»¤«Kid on July 25, 2014, 08:25:17 PM

With no separation between the group you are with and the group you are not with? I can agree with consequences for the group you are not associated with but cannot see being punished for a mishap that befalls a comrade.

that distinction was not made with the responsibility of gun owners for their guns.

SdK · « **Reply #285 on:** July 25, 2014, 09:04:17 PM »

Quote from: sys on July 25, 2014, 08:47:27 PM

Quote from: Sundance»¤«Kid on July 25, 2014, 08:25:17 PM
With no separation between the group you are with and the group you are not with? I can agree with consequences for the group you are not associated with but cannot see being punished for a mishap that befalls a comrade.

that distinction was not made with the responsibility of gun owners for their guns.

I think giving a gun to someone falls into the who you associate category thus making you culpable. Just like I said if the girl had shot the old man, Adams should be tried for the murder.

SdK · « **Reply #286 on:** July 25, 2014, 09:05:15 PM »

Are you saying giving someone the opportunity to get shot is the same as giving someone the opportunity to kill? I disagree with that.

sys · « **Reply #287 on:** July 25, 2014, 09:26:08 PM »

i think if you are going to argue that legally owning a gun can make you criminally responsible for unintended deaths that may occur through use of that gun by others, then it should also make perfect sense that a person is criminally responsible for deaths that resulted during (and due to) the commission of a felony, even when those deaths are also unintended and/or caused by others.

SdK · « **Reply #288 on:** July 25, 2014, 09:27:33 PM »

Ok. Agree to disagree.

sys · « **Reply #289 on:** July 25, 2014, 09:34:58 PM »

Quote from: Sundance»¤«Kid on July 25, 2014, 09:27:33 PM

Ok. Agree to disagree.

no, explain the logic behind your opinions.

michigancat · « **Reply #290 on:** July 25, 2014, 09:42:49 PM »

I think both a criminal whose accomplice was killed during the crime and a gun owner whose gun was used to kill someone should be charged with a crime less severe than murder.

sys · « **Reply #291 on:** July 25, 2014, 09:50:02 PM »

Quote from: michigancat on July 25, 2014, 09:42:49 PM

I think both a criminal whose accomplice was killed during the crime and a gun owner whose gun was used to kill someone should be charged with a crime less severe than murder.

sure, that's fair. i mean there's a lot of grey, so i'm not drawing a line in the sand, but i tend to lean to the side of a person is only responsible for the concrete, foreseeable and probable consequences of one's voluntary actions myself.

SdK · « **Reply #292 on:** July 25, 2014, 09:52:02 PM »

I already have.

sys · « **Reply #293 on:** July 25, 2014, 10:00:10 PM »

the thing about "whose side" the person who dies is on?

think that one through. are you saying that the gunowner shouldn't be responsible if it's his/her own kid that gets killed? what about third parties in the case of felons? a robber initiates a felony and in the course of events a bystander is struck and killed by a police officer's bullet. is the robber responsible or not?

SdK · « **Reply #294 on:** July 25, 2014, 10:07:24 PM »

There are no absolutes. I'm not trying to draft a law. I make my decisions on a case by case basis.

Spracne · « **Reply #295 on:** July 25, 2014, 10:33:05 PM »

Criminally responsible, yes, but I don't see how his actions satisfy the mens rea component of murder.

sys · « **Reply #296 on:** July 25, 2014, 10:42:10 PM »

Quote from: Spracne on July 25, 2014, 10:33:05 PM

Criminally responsible, yes, but I don't see how his actions satisfy the mens rea component of murder.

not a lawyer, but i think a lot of states have laws that state something like a death that results during the commission of a felony is murder. maybe some it's just armed felonies or violent felonies or something like that.

steve dave · « **Reply #297 on:** July 25, 2014, 10:48:59 PM »

Quote from: michigancat on July 25, 2014, 09:42:49 PM

I think both a criminal whose accomplice was killed during the crime and a gun owner whose gun was used to kill someone should be charged with a crime less severe than murder.

I as well

eastcat · « **Reply #298 on:** July 26, 2014, 12:22:40 AM »

Quote from: steve dave on July 25, 2014, 10:48:59 PM

Quote from: michigancat on July 25, 2014, 09:42:49 PM
I think both a criminal whose accomplice was killed during the crime and a gun owner whose gun was used to kill someone should be charged with a crime less severe than murder.

I as well

If I steal your car and run a family off the road do you get charged as well?

michigancat · « **Reply #299 on:** July 26, 2014, 01:14:52 AM »

Quote from: eastcat on July 26, 2014, 12:22:40 AM

Quote from: steve dave on July 25, 2014, 10:48:59 PM

Quote from: michigancat on July 25, 2014, 09:42:49 PM
I think both a criminal whose accomplice was killed during the crime and a gun owner whose gun was used to kill someone should be charged with a crime less severe than murder.

I as well

If I steal your car and run a family off the road do you get charged as well?

No, and if a gun owner reports their gun stolen or lost as soon as they know it's stolen or lost, I don't think they should be charged with a crime, either.