people talk about atheletes and student loan stuff

[Stevesie60]

Should have stayed out of this thread. You guys are way too smart for me. But I am glad that the conversation moved from if we should pay them to logistics of paying them.

[kostakio]

The decoupling thing isn't going to happen. That would be the point where they would fail to be college sports at all and you'd lose the things that people like about college sports in the first place.  You'd lose the charade of amatuerism that allow people to feel good about their donations.  You'd also probably lose tax favored status for both the programs and their donars. Essentially you'd be turning college football and bball into minor league sports and people don't like minor league sports.  You think somebody is going to donate millions of dollars to some minor league team loosely affiliated with a school? 

[Alpinist]

Give all SAs $5-8/hour (flexible here, I'm not going to run the math on it) for hours they're mandated to be doing athlete stuff (maybe all including games/travel, maybe just the practice times, I don't know) that they could otherwise be working jobs or enjoying college.

this seems as logical as any solution.

[Belvis Noland]

The decoupling thing isn't going to happen. That would be the point where they would fail to be college sports at all and you'd lose the things that people like about college sports in the first place.  You'd lose the charade of amatuerism that allow people to feel good about their donations.  You'd also probably lose tax favored status for both the programs and their donars. Essentially you'd be turning college football and bball into minor league sports and people don't like minor league sports.  You think somebody is going to donate millions of dollars to some minor league team loosely affiliated with a school?

This.  Hence the pretextual arguments for not paying athletes. They conclude that they don't want the current product (which is awesome btw) to change and then rationalize a hundred reasons to support the conclusion.  Instead of weighing all of the facts and then reaching a conclusion. 

[Katpappy]

There is absolutely no way that there is enough revenue for every D1 school to simultaneously maintain compliance with Title IX and pay revenue sport athletes.  We are already at the point of no return with the arms race on facilities.  The decoupling of basketball and football from the rest of the university will save athletic depts. and universities from the financial doom that is knocking at their doorstep.

The automatic qualifier schools can. Basketball and football cannot and will not be decoupled from anything. What is most likely to happen, and the wheels are already in motion for this, is for a fourth subdivision to be added to Division 1. The fourth subdivision will be the subdivision that will offer full cost of living.

This is what I have been saying. 

[star seed 7]

Katdaddy has owned this thread harder than marcus foster has owned andrew wiggins at college basketball.

[Katpappy]

Katdaddy has owned this thread harder than marcus foster has owned andrew wiggins at college basketball.

[EMAWmeister]

I think the unionization at Northwestern is interesting.  From what I can tell, they are just looking to be represented at the table when decisions on things like concussion protocol are discussed, and I think that is more than fair.

[Benja]

Just watched "Schooled: The price of college sports". It's pretty good and it's on netflix. Would recommend to anyone still on the fence.

Also didn't know Bill Self has said we should pay players stipends multiple times. Kinda wish LHCBS would say the same, would be funny to gauge tucks reactions.

[Benja]

Also, this is a very strange thread title. You're strange, katdaddy.

[Katpappy]

Also, this is a very strange thread title. You're strange, katdaddy.

You can thank the MODS for the thread title. 

[Clevey 2 Times]

This is a tough debate, with valid points on either side, but can we all agree that one argument that is absolutely stupid is the 4 thousand versions of: "Why don't they do what I did, take out some loans and live beyond my means."

Because the system under which the majority of us had to get our college education is so great as is, let's compel some others to take on massive debt, that the government profits from, so they can find themselves some meddling job to pay the bills. Great plan. These are morally bankrupt political arguments.

[Katpappy]

This is a tough debate, with valid points on either side, but can we all agree that one argument that is absolutely stupid is the 4 thousand versions of: "Why don't they do what I did, take out some loans and live beyond my means."

Because the system under which the majority of us had to get our college education is so great as is, let's compel some others to take on massive debt, that the government profits from, so they can find themselves some meddling job to pay the bills. Great plan. These are morally bankrupt political arguments.

It's just plain ole jealousy, Cleveland. 

[EMAWmeister]

Is this the place where we talk about the ridiculous OU pasta thing?

I hope the NCAA sees right through their bullshit and finds real violations

[bones129]

Is this the place where we talk about the ridiculous OU pasta thing?

I hope the NCAA sees right through their bullshit and finds real violations

 

[star seed 7]

Give me some 'tails

[bones129]

Give me some 'tails

 

[HerrSonntag]

i guess theres a NCAA rule defining how much food you can serve a person before you're crossing into "impermissible benefits"

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10484741/oklahoma-sooners-penalized-three-student-athletes-eating-too-much-pasta

OU self reported a violation of this rule, the NCAA waved it as not being an actual violation, but that hasn't stopped the rattling heads from doing double-barrel-rolls all over the place with snark.

Add the end of the day, the NCAA is a huge bureaucratic institution, so its lousy with stupid rules and regulations.

[Katpappy]

Sports Labor Attorney Jeffrey Kessler Files Suit Against NCAA
By Brian Leigh , Featured Columnist
Mar 17, 2014

One of the top sports labor lawyers in the world, Jeffrey Kessler, filed an antitrust claim against the NCAA and five conferences Monday in a New Jersey federal court, arguing on behalf of his clients—college basketball and football players—that an academic scholarship is unjust compensation for the excess of revenue they create.

Kessler explained his case to Tom Farrey of ESPN.com:

“The main objective is to strike down permanently the restrictions that prevent athletes in Division I basketball and the top tier of college football from being fairly compensated for the billions of dollars in revenues that they help generate. In no other business—and college sports is big business—would it ever be suggested that the people who are providing the essential services work for free. Only in big-time college sports is that line drawn.”
The plaintiffs in the lawsuit, which has been filed against the NCAA and its five power conferences—the SEC, Big Ten, Big 12, ACC and Pac-12—are four current college athletes: Rutgers senior basketball player J.J. Moore, Clemson junior defensive back Martin Jenkins, Cal tight end Bill Tyndall and UTEP tight end Kevin Perry.

This is a significant development. Farrey calls the filing "the most direct challenge yet to the NCAA's longstanding economic model," and it's not hard to see why. Kessler is one of the highest-profile lawyers in the field and called the case "a frontal attack on the basic unfairness of the system," according to George Schroeder of USA Today.

Per Farrey, a similar claim had been filed last month by a Seattle-based firm "on behalf of former West Virginia running back Shawne Alston." However, that case is less aggressive, does not have current athletes as its plaintiffs and is not being spearheaded by a legal shark like Kessler.

This move comes at a pioneering time for college football. In February, former Northwestern quarterback Kain Colter requested that the National Labor Relations Board declare student-athletes employees of the university. It's the first move toward starting a players' union for college athletes.

Kessler's legal team includes a former member of the NCAA, Tim Nevius. Formerly one of the organization's top rule-violations investigators—Nevius is the one former Ohio State head coach Jim Tressel admitted his wrongdoing to before getting fired—he might give the plaintiffs a valuable conduit regarding how the NCAA is run, where it might be vulnerable, where the bodies might be buried, etc.

Whether this claim is successful remains to be seen. Either way, cases like this, the Ed O'Bannon lawsuit and the Northwestern players' attempt to unionize show a clear trend toward rebellion against the status quo of the NCAA system.

As Andy Staples of Sports Illustrated puts it, the lawyers "smell blood (in the water)":

[The Big Train]

Can we like summarize this? So I dont have to read an article I am not interested about and just get the facts?

[ydarg2012]

I'm not sure if this is relevant. . but the above article made me think of it.  I currently work as a server at a restaurant.  The minimum wage for servers  ( $2.13/hr) has not gone up in close to ten years.  This wage essentially goes to cover taxes (which it doesnt.  my fellow employees and I pay in every year around this time.  One fellow employee who works full time at the restaurant payed $2000 in taxes this year.)  Now you could argue that the value of a restaurant is based on its food. I can agree.  But, without the servers peddling the food it wouldn't sell etc.  So invariably, these employees are working for free.  Their only profit comes from commission compensation that is determined by the customer.  So if the customer spends $50 they could tip $10 or they could tip $0 based off of the server's performance.  There is no guarantee of pay. 

Now how is this tied in to our current discussion? In both situations you have an "employee" who drives the revenue without getting paid by the institution.  The interesting comparison to me is that since the government recognizes this practice for restaurants as legal, why can't athletes be paid extra based upon their performance? If they work hard and put in the time to know the menu/playbook they will do better.  When they do better they are compensated better.  Yet at the end of the day the student athlete is guaranteed a meal plan and an education.  All a server is guaranteed is a chance to make money, maybe. 

Thoughts?

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

well, im guessing your restaurant friends make more than $2000 in cash tips they don't report to the IRS as their wages because they are cash tips.

[ydarg2012]

well, im guessing your restaurant friends make more than $2000 in cash tips they don't report to the IRS as their wages because they are cash tips.

Fair point.  It is a responsibility to save and pay those taxes.  But even without that as part of the discussion, they are not receiving a wage from the restaurant.  That is the comparison to student athletes that I was making. 

[EMAWmeister]

Didn't you go to college for like, seven years?

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

well, im guessing your restaurant friends make more than $2000 in cash tips they don't report to the IRS as their wages because they are cash tips.

Fair point.  It is a responsibility to save and pay those taxes.  But even without that as part of the discussion, they are not receiving a wage from the restaurant.  That is the comparison to student athletes that I was making.

yeah I didn't really read that I just thought id remind you that most people who receive tips don't report it if they are cash and thus I don't feel bad when the IRS is like hey you owe me some scrilla.