Last 7 games - Jake Waters

[Deez Nutz]

Outside of the Sams fumble (that hurt), I honestly thought both QB's performed well. Even Sams should had that passing TD, the one where somehow, Lockett dropped it, and that pass was right on the money.

I honestly, thought that this game, they played the QB's strengths perfectly.

You place commas in your sentences as if you are sprinkling raisins in your oatmeal.   

[1863]

Outside of the Sams fumble (that hurt), I honestly thought both QB's performed well. Even Sams should had that passing TD, the one where somehow, Lockett dropped it, and that pass was right on the money.

I honestly, thought that this game, they played the QB's strengths perfectly.

This exactly. I prefer Sams more, but you can't deny that Waters/ Lockett was great tonight. I still think that Sams has that throwing ability that is at or at least near Waters level, but if Waters plays this well I think he needs to stay under center for around half the snaps. But we also need to let Sams get those pass plays as well.

[WillieWatanabe]

People around here know the numbers of each QB fine, but I only go by trends and what this season showed us for who this staff built this offense for...



The use of Sams correlates with the games Lockett missed most of the snaps, though it would've been interesting to see the balance at OSU had Lockett not gotten hurt. IMHO Sams was initially a change of pace against OSU to start that game and once Lockett got hurt and it was clear that Waters without him was ineffective, they stuck with Sams. Then the staff stuck with that formula when Lockett was out against Baylor. However, the overall plan from the time Waters became the starter, this team was built for the Waters to Lockett connection. That staff deviated from that when Lockett was hurt and it worked well, but this offense was never built to be for Sams. The rest of the season the trend is clear and they gradually turned the reigns back over to Waters. Its possible that Sams might have gotten dinged as some have speculated down the stretch, but Waters was going to get most of the snaps once Lockett was healthy.

This is a Waters/Lockett team and now the key is figuring out how to use Sams and if the staff thinks they have a back-up QB they can trust to move Sams full time to another spot, likely receiver.

It just all seems pretty clear from looking at that to me.

dat graph.

[kso_FAN]

The final numbers:



FYI, Sams had the fewest attempts of any QB I left on the list at 53. The next fewest were Allen Webb at 94 and 105 in 04 and 05. Also, the list goes back to 93 for Snyder coached QBs.

[Powercat Posse]

Outside of the Sams fumble (that hurt), I honestly thought both QB's performed well. Even Sams should had that passing TD, the one where somehow, Lockett dropped it, and that pass was right on the money.

I honestly, thought that this game, they played the QB's strengths perfectly.

This exactly. I prefer Sams more, but you can't deny that Waters/ Lockett was great tonight. I still think that Sams has that throwing ability that is at or at least near Waters level, but if Waters plays this well I think he needs to stay under center for around half the snaps. But we also need to let Sams get those pass plays as well.

Did you watch us this year at all?   If Sams was at the same level as Waters in terms of throwing ability, then he would have been on the field a lot more.   Lockett 10 TDs in the final 7 games and Thompson ave over 17 yds per reception has a ton to do with Waters being able to get the ball down the field and stretch the defense.    Just like everyone else, I like Sams.   I want him involved next year, whether it be playing QB or playing QB/WR combo.   That said, Jake needs to be taking a majority of the snaps at QB unless something changes before late Aug

[catzacker]

I don't think you can say that Sams doesn't have the same throwing ability as Waters.  He wasn't given the same opportunities to draw that conclusion. 

[nicname]

It can't be said enough how lucky we are to have a guy like _FAN who provides an endless supply of data, numbers and graphics to aid in discussion.  Truly a #1Cat.

[wetwillie]

I don't think you can say that Sams doesn't have the same throwing ability as Waters.  He wasn't given the same opportunities to draw that conclusion. 

I think the sample size albeit limited showed he (sams)is more accurate overall. I think waters statistically probably has a good edge on balls thrown 15+ yards in the air. 

[Powercat Posse]

I don't think you can say that Sams doesn't have the same throwing ability as Waters.  He wasn't given the same opportunities to draw that conclusion.

Sams ran the ball 3 times for every pass he attempted.  Why do you think that is??   Even in 2011, when Klein was not a great passer and he carried the ball a ton.... he ran 317 times and attempted 281 passes.   

for most of the year, Sams was around or above 70%, but for some reason, Bill did not want him throwing much or throwing the ball all over the field. 

[Katpappy]

If Lockett catches that TD that SAMs put in his bread basket it's a different story.

Yea, this place would be a non-stop party of QB awesomeness.  Shame really

it was devastating to me.  I couldn't believe it.  then the fumble....

but hey, cats won the battle.

No, denied.  The Cats won the war; Sams lost a lone battle.

[chum1]

I seriously don't understand how people think Sams is a much better runner and an equivalent passer when Waters gets so much more playing time.  It makes no sense.  But I guess that would explain why so many are so pissed off.

[kso_FAN]

I seriously don't understand how people think Sams is a much better runner and an equivalent passer when Waters gets so much more playing time.  It makes no sense.  But I guess that would explain why so many are so pissed off.

Because the coaches are stupid. Except when they aren't.

[kim carnes]

I seriously don't understand how people think Sams is a much better runner and an equivalent passer when Waters gets so much more playing time.  It makes no sense.  But I guess that would explain why so many are so pissed off.

I've seen it with my own eyes, chum.  The eyes don't lie.

[catzacker]

I don't think you can say that Sams doesn't have the same throwing ability as Waters.  He wasn't given the same opportunities to draw that conclusion.

Sams ran the ball 3 times for every pass he attempted.  Why do you think that is??   Even in 2011, when Klein was not a great passer and he carried the ball a ton.... he ran 317 times and attempted 281 passes.   

for most of the year, Sams was around or above 70%, but for some reason, Bill did not want him throwing much or throwing the ball all over the field.

the conclusion is the coaches think he doesn't have the same ability.  not that he doesn't have it.  and what? Klein was all of a sudden a great passer in '12? 

you can't say someone can't do something when they don't get the opportunity to do it, and in the limited opportunities he has done it, which is why the assertion the coaches'  have is, imo, misguided based on results on the game field. 

but Sams has done enough to not make him starting a definitive answer.  But it hasn't been a fair competition.

[catzacker]

I seriously don't understand how people think Sams is a much better runner and an equivalent passer when Waters gets so much more playing time.  It makes no sense.  But I guess that would explain why so many are so pissed off.

I think it's the idea that we haven't won a championship or been a successful team (i.e. 11+ wins) when we haven't had a dual threat QB.  We haven't had a passing QB since May (Kavanaugh?) and our defense isn't as good as it was then (nor will the offenses today let it be).  So, imo, it's hard to imagine that these coaches will figure out how to drive the porche (or whatever metaphoric car you want to use for a passing qb).  And if it's hard to imagine that (because we haven't really seen it consistently) then there is a natural desire to have a dual threat qb - i.e. Sams. 

So...imo, Sams' ability to run combined with his passing ability is greater than Water's ability to throw combined with his running ability.  (given the back drop of our coaches being apes trying to figure out fire).

[MakeItRain]

People around here know the numbers of each QB fine, but I only go by trends and what this season showed us for who this staff built this offense for...



The use of Sams correlates with the games Lockett missed most of the snaps, though it would've been interesting to see the balance at OSU had Lockett not gotten hurt. IMHO Sams was initially a change of pace against OSU to start that game and once Lockett got hurt and it was clear that Waters without him was ineffective, they stuck with Sams. Then the staff stuck with that formula when Lockett was out against Baylor. However, the overall plan from the time Waters became the starter, this team was built for the Waters to Lockett connection. That staff deviated from that when Lockett was hurt and it worked well, but this offense was never built to be for Sams. The rest of the season the trend is clear and they gradually turned the reigns back over to Waters. Its possible that Sams might have gotten dinged as some have speculated down the stretch, but Waters was going to get most of the snaps once Lockett was healthy.

This is a Waters/Lockett team and now the key is figuring out how to use Sams and if the staff thinks they have a back-up QB they can trust to move Sams full time to another spot, likely receiver.

It just all seems pretty clear from looking at that to me.

The decline of snaps for Sams also correlates with the decline of diversity of play calling. The most frustrating thing about the season for me was not the number of snaps he had, it was frustrating but not the most frustrating for me, but whatthe coaches did with his snaps. At some point, I think it was when tlbl came back, the coaches decided Sams was John Riggins and just battered him into the line with every run call. They decided out fastest, most elusive runner shouldn't run in space, he was best between the tackles. Ultra stupid.

[nicname]

One thing I've been wondering is how each quarterback stacks up with regards to performance in different areas of the field. Just a simple passing chart with the width of the field divided into thirds and length of passes categorized as 0-10 yards, 11-20 yards and 20+ yards.

It's obvious that the coaches want Waters in there to take pressure off of the run game, but more importantly to get it to the deep threats downfield. Is he markedly better over a large portion of the chart, or areas of the field in general? He should have to be to take most of the snaps, imo. We can't watch practice, so we can't judge there. And obviously the smallish sample size for Sams would yield skeptical results when looking at a passing chart.

You might even be able to say that generally Sams would be more ideal for a Snyder offense, but that with this particular group getting the ball to Lockett, and to a lesser extent, the other pass catchers Waters' skills are more valued.  That obviously does not settle the debate over whether or not Waters' passing game is actually that much better than Sams' is. I would wager to say that it probably is, I don't imagine that the coaches would deliberately put the wrong guy out there time after time. 

[chum1]

Sams can audible into passing plays.  He chooses not to.  He chooses to call his own number, what did they say during the bowl broadcast, 80% of the time?

[nicname]

NDSU - 6.2
ULL - 6.4
UMASS - 7.9
UT - 5.7
OSU - 5.1
BU - 5.6
WVU - 7.0
ISU   - 6.6
TTU - 6.6
TCU - 6.4
OU - 7.3
KU - 5.6
UM - 6.6

YPP in each game.

[chum1]

I seriously don't understand how people think Sams is a much better runner and an equivalent passer when Waters gets so much more playing time.  It makes no sense.  But I guess that would explain why so many are so pissed off.

I think it's the idea that we haven't won a championship or been a successfuol team (i.e. 11+ wins) when we haven't had a dual threat QB.  We haven't had a passing QB since May (Kavanaugh?) and our defense isn't as good as it was then (nor will the offenses today let it be).  So, imo, it's hard to imagine that these coaches will figure out how to drive the porche (or whatever metaphoric car you want to use for a passing qb).  And if it's hard to imagine that (because we haven't really seen it consistently) then there is a natural desire to have a dual threat qb - i.e. Sams. 

So...imo, Sams' ability to run combined with his passing ability is greater than Water's ability to throw combined with his running ability.  (given the back drop of our coaches being apes trying to figure out fire).

People think we would have won 11 games with Sams playing QB full time?  I guess that's further explanation for why so many are so pissed.

[kso_FAN]

If you want to just look at offensive and defensive numbers the biggest problem with this year's team is simple; turnovers. (Both QBs had their share of problems with turnovers.)



I have neglected to share it, but in my chart of KSU career QB numbers one of the stats that I didn't point out is that Sams had the highest INT% (7.5%) of any quarterback that has played a significant number of snaps going back to 1993. Dunn's 7.1% in '01 is the only other Snyder QB over 6%.

That also might have contributed to who played QB and who didn't.

[michigancat]

I don't think you can say that Sams doesn't have the same throwing ability as Waters.  He wasn't given the same opportunities to draw that conclusion.

Sams ran the ball 3 times for every pass he attempted.  Why do you think that is?? 

Well, he is clearly the best running QB Snyder has ever had, which could have something to do with it.

[catzacker]

I seriously don't understand how people think Sams is a much better runner and an equivalent passer when Waters gets so much more playing time.  It makes no sense.  But I guess that would explain why so many are so pissed off.

I think it's the idea that we haven't won a championship or been a successfuol team (i.e. 11+ wins) when we haven't had a dual threat QB.  We haven't had a passing QB since May (Kavanaugh?) and our defense isn't as good as it was then (nor will the offenses today let it be).  So, imo, it's hard to imagine that these coaches will figure out how to drive the porche (or whatever metaphoric car you want to use for a passing qb).  And if it's hard to imagine that (because we haven't really seen it consistently) then there is a natural desire to have a dual threat qb - i.e. Sams. 

So...imo, Sams' ability to run combined with his passing ability is greater than Water's ability to throw combined with his running ability.  (given the back drop of our coaches being apes trying to figure out fire).

People think we would have won 11 games with Sams playing QB full time?  I guess that's further explanation for why so many are so pissed.

No.  Will win.

[chum1]

I seriously don't understand how people think Sams is a much better runner and an equivalent passer when Waters gets so much more playing time.  It makes no sense.  But I guess that would explain why so many are so pissed off.

I think it's the idea that we haven't won a championship or been a successfuol team (i.e. 11+ wins) when we haven't had a dual threat QB.  We haven't had a passing QB since May (Kavanaugh?) and our defense isn't as good as it was then (nor will the offenses today let it be).  So, imo, it's hard to imagine that these coaches will figure out how to drive the porche (or whatever metaphoric car you want to use for a passing qb).  And if it's hard to imagine that (because we haven't really seen it consistently) then there is a natural desire to have a dual threat qb - i.e. Sams. 

So...imo, Sams' ability to run combined with his passing ability is greater than Water's ability to throw combined with his running ability.  (given the back drop of our coaches being apes trying to figure out fire).

People think we would have won 11 games with Sams playing QB full time?  I guess that's further explanation for why so many are so pissed.

No.  Will win.

The offense with Klein was way different than the offense with Roberson, though, right? 

[kso_FAN]

The offense with Klein was way different than the offense with Roberson, though, right? 

I'd say there are significant differences in our option game between now and then. Likely some differences in the passing game. College football has changed quite a bit in the last decade.