Unsettled Waters

[ChiComCat]

I thought Sams took a clear lead in the race against OSU and Baylor.

Agreed.  Also, if Sams' chances came against OSU and Baylor and Waters gets UT and 4 puds, its not really a level playing field.  I blame the Baylor loss on Snyder's play calling, putting Sams out there to chuck it downfield with over 4 minutes left and down by 3.  If you really want to chuck it downfield, Waters should have been in.  If you really want to win, Sams should've been allowed to add to his insane rushing total with the occasional short pass.

[Belvis Noland]

I completely agree with this, and I don't really mind both playing as long as they're used right. My only problem is that it seems like its pretty obvious that when Waters makes a poor throw he carries it over and he enters a mini slump. At those points he's pretty much worthless for the next 4-5 drives. The coaches seem to be waiting about 2-3 drives longer than they should to make the switch.

So, you completely agree that Waters deserves more credit than he's getting.  Then, in the next breath, you concede Jake's "mini" slumps that last the next 4-5 drives.  what in the world? 

What do we typically have, like 12-15 drives in any given game?  more or less?  and about 30-40% of those are led by Sams?  So, in other words, Jake is pretty much worthless whenever he's on the field. 

[MakeItRain]

By no means do I imply that Waters is great or should be the starter, but he is much better than he is made out to be on this board. He made bad throws and was bailed out several times, but he made some decent throws too. Both quarterbacks played decent games and neither separated from the other. Both will continue to play.

Just as Waters had a chance to take a lead in the race yesterday, Sams had a chance against both OSU and Baylor. Both are just average QBs right now that make good and bad plays. Neither has given Snyder a reason to declare one or other the starter.

I didn't say he was horrible but he absolutely had a bad day throwing the ball yesterday. If he was brought in to be a passer and he has a game like that halfway through his junior year you should be able to say he had a bad day passing without guilt. That over-thrown fade to Thompson is a perfect example, it is a tough pass but he needs to make a better throw there. He was billed as this amazing passer, he needs to be held to a higher standard. I feel like he is being graded on the Kevin Lopina curve.

[eastcat]

Sams took the lead vs. oSu? 3 really bad interceptions.

Like it or not Sams has 4 interceptions on 400 yards passing. Jake has 5 interceptions on 1,400 yards passing. It's not even close.

[kso_FAN]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

[kso_FAN]

By no means do I imply that Waters is great or should be the starter, but he is much better than he is made out to be on this board. He made bad throws and was bailed out several times, but he made some decent throws too. Both quarterbacks played decent games and neither separated from the other. Both will continue to play.

Just as Waters had a chance to take a lead in the race yesterday, Sams had a chance against both OSU and Baylor. Both are just average QBs right now that make good and bad plays. Neither has given Snyder a reason to declare one or other the starter.

I didn't say he was horrible but he absolutely had a bad day throwing the ball yesterday. If he was brought in to be a passer and he has a game like that halfway through his junior year you should be able to say he had a bad day passing without guilt. That over-thrown fade to Thompson is a perfect example, it is a tough pass but he needs to make a better throw there. He was billed as this amazing passer, he needs to be held to a higher standard. I feel like he is being graded on the Kevin Lopina curve.

Both guys are graded on ridiculous curves depending on the situation.

[michigancat]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

Well he did lead the most productive offensive performances (at that point) against the two best teams we played. And once we got our good receivers back we decided to throw less with him again. It's kind of strange.

What "free pass" has he been given?

[wabash909]

Quote from Sams on the pass to Tramaine

"I was getting flushed out of the pocket and I just have tremendous faith in both of those guys," Sams said. "I saw it was really two-on-two and honestly, I was going to Lockett, but it went to Tramaine somehow."

This quote is an example of why I don't think Sams ever beats out Waters outright for the starting spot. Great play by Thompson saved an ill-advised throw, and Sams' his fifth int. on the season. Love Sams, but his decision making HAS to get better before he is trusted to run an offense. I'm sure this play with continue to bother Snyder for the remainder of the season. To me, Waters seems as if he is beginning to turn the corner, and is gaining confidence in his abilities to run the offense.

Either way, I'm hopeful that one of the two QB's takes the job outright next season. If Waters takes the spot, I like the rest of the K-State faithful, would like to see Sams move to WR and run occasional wildcat plays. Kid is a freak athlete, and we can't afford to keep him on the sidelines for half of the game.

Going to be interesting to see how both of these guys play once competition increases next week against Tech and OU in a few weeks.

EMAW!

[MakeItRain]

By no means do I imply that Waters is great or should be the starter, but he is much better than he is made out to be on this board. He made bad throws and was bailed out several times, but he made some decent throws too. Both quarterbacks played decent games and neither separated from the other. Both will continue to play.

Just as Waters had a chance to take a lead in the race yesterday, Sams had a chance against both OSU and Baylor. Both are just average QBs right now that make good and bad plays. Neither has given Snyder a reason to declare one or other the starter.

I didn't say he was horrible but he absolutely had a bad day throwing the ball yesterday. If he was brought in to be a passer and he has a game like that halfway through his junior year you should be able to say he had a bad day passing without guilt. That over-thrown fade to Thompson is a perfect example, it is a tough pass but he needs to make a better throw there. He was billed as this amazing passer, he needs to be held to a higher standard. I feel like he is being graded on the Kevin Lopina curve.

Both guys are graded on ridiculous curves depending on the situation.

Right, but I'm talking about Waters, specifically yesterday. Yesterday Waters threw the ball poorly, last week he threw the ball well.  I don't think I've mentioned Sams once in this thread.

[kso_FAN]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

Well he did lead the most productive offensive performances (at that point) against the two best teams we played. And once we got our good receivers back we decided to throw less with him again. It's kind of strange.

What "free pass" has he been given?

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems many of his INTs are dismissed because "he shouldn't have been allowed to throw", yet early in the year everyone (including myself) was clamoring that he be allowed to throw.

[The Whale]

Don't have the game tivo'd to rewatch, but did SAMs make the right read on the Rose touchdown?  Watching it live, I thought SAMs would have walked into the endzone had he kept it.  Instead of following the blocking, Rose had to cutback into the lane that SAMs would've gone through.


Meanwhile, Waters completed a few big plays, but plays that would have gone for much more yardage had they been better throws. 

[kso_FAN]

Right, but I'm talking about Waters, specifically yesterday. Yesterday Waters threw the ball poorly, last week he threw the ball well.  I don't think I've mentioned Sams once in this thread.

You haven't and I agree that he was off yesterday. But our fans comparing him to Meier or Lopina is laughable.

[michigancat]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

Well he did lead the most productive offensive performances (at that point) against the two best teams we played. And once we got our good receivers back we decided to throw less with him again. It's kind of strange.

What "free pass" has he been given?

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems many of his INTs are dismissed because "he shouldn't have been allowed to throw", yet early in the year everyone (including myself) was clamoring that he be allowed to throw.

you are wrong, or at least creating a straw man.

[kso_FAN]

Okay.

[ChiComCat]

Sams took the lead vs. oSu? 3 really bad interceptions.

Like it or not Sams has 4 interceptions on 400 yards passing. Jake has 5 interceptions on 1,400 yards passing. It's not even close.

Waters has 6 fumbles on 238 rushing yards and Sams has 3 on 600.  What's your point?

[kougar24]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

If they're even, Sams should be given the job full time. He's younger and has a far higher ceiling. It makes no sense to waste this extremely valuable practice time on Waters, who is at his ceiling already.

[kso_FAN]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

If they're even, Sams should be given the job full time. He's younger and has a far higher ceiling. It makes no sense to waste this extremely valuable practice time on Waters, who is at his ceiling already.

I get this, but more so next year. With Lockett and Thompson I think the desire to make Waters work is a bit more appealing to the staff.

[wazucat]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

If they're even, Sams should be given the job full time. He's younger and has a far higher ceiling. It makes no sense to waste this extremely valuable practice time on Waters, who is at his ceiling already.

This    Similar to Carson Sr. Season after Klein thumped Texas, why not make the switch permanent 

[ChiComCat]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

Well he did lead the most productive offensive performances (at that point) against the two best teams we played. And once we got our good receivers back we decided to throw less with him again. It's kind of strange.

What "free pass" has he been given?

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems many of his INTs are dismissed because "he shouldn't have been allowed to throw", yet early in the year everyone (including myself) was clamoring that he be allowed to throw.

I think it was evident in the OSU game that Sams is a very capable passer up to about 15 yards.  Unless he has a guy about 5 yards clear downfield, he shouldn't chuck it deep.  Sams also has to take some blame for this as far as decision making.

[kougar24]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

If they're even, Sams should be given the job full time. He's younger and has a far higher ceiling. It makes no sense to waste this extremely valuable practice time on Waters, who is at his ceiling already.

I get this, but more so next year. With Lockett and Thompson I think the desire to make Waters work is a bit more appealing to the staff.

That makes no sense. Lockett and Thompson benefit Sams as much as they do Waters. Why wouldn't you let them help accelerate Sams' passing development? Our future with Waters is forgettable at best.

[kso_FAN]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

If they're even, Sams should be given the job full time. He's younger and has a far higher ceiling. It makes no sense to waste this extremely valuable practice time on Waters, who is at his ceiling already.

I get this, but more so next year. With Lockett and Thompson I think the desire to make Waters work is a bit more appealing to the staff.

That makes no sense. Lockett and Thompson benefit Sams as much as they do Waters. Why wouldn't you let them help accelerate Sams' passing development? Our future with Waters is forgettable at best.

Sams hasn't shown the ability to make the throws where Lockett and Thompson are difference makers, specifically deep post routes and fades down the sidelines. I appreciate Sams ability to throw underneath routes with accuracy, but not throwing those vertical routes really limits the offense when he is in the game.

[star seed 7]

the constant over/under throws of under 15 yard routes by waters is way more frustrating and troubling to me than sams not being able to throw the deep ball.

[kougar24]

I get this board likes Sams and I really do also. But given the last 4 games I don't think he has separated himself. And frankly many this board gives him free passes that I've never seen them give any other K-State player or coach.

If they're even, Sams should be given the job full time. He's younger and has a far higher ceiling. It makes no sense to waste this extremely valuable practice time on Waters, who is at his ceiling already.

I get this, but more so next year. With Lockett and Thompson I think the desire to make Waters work is a bit more appealing to the staff.

That makes no sense. Lockett and Thompson benefit Sams as much as they do Waters. Why wouldn't you let them help accelerate Sams' passing development? Our future with Waters is forgettable at best.

Sams hasn't shown the ability to make the throws where Lockett and Thompson are difference makers, specifically deep post routes and fades down the sidelines. I appreciate Sams ability to throw underneath routes with accuracy, but not throwing those vertical routes really limits the offense when he is in the game.

Now is when Sams needs to work on that, in a season that is already lost. So he is better at it in a year that matters.

[kso_FAN]

the constant over/under throws of under 15 yard routes by waters is way more frustrating and troubling to me than sams not being able to throw the deep ball.

His most frustrating throws are high throws on out routes.

[eastcat]

Sams took the lead vs. oSu? 3 really bad interceptions.

Like it or not Sams has 4 interceptions on 400 yards passing. Jake has 5 interceptions on 1,400 yards passing. It's not even close.

Waters has 6 fumbles on 238 rushing yards and Sams has 3 on 600.  What's your point?

A QB's job is to throw.