Author Topic: Time to raise the minimum wage again...  (Read 18942 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #100 on: September 10, 2013, 06:54:44 AM »
Would everyone be happy if we just raised minimum wage to $300/hour?  That would work for you guys... Right?  You'd be okay making the same amount as a burger flipper... And if not, why do you hate poor people so much?
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 7656
  • 1cat
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #101 on: September 10, 2013, 09:28:09 AM »
This issue is very real.  The minimum wage is so low that there's more incentive not to work than there is to work for minimum wage.  Low skilled workers should be able to work full-time and still live semi-uncomfortably.

FYP

Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to live comfortably on minimum wage.

The libs would like to make flipping burgers a career for the uneducated immigrant democrats.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #102 on: September 10, 2013, 09:44:02 AM »
I really do think that maybe there is some benefit to raising the minimum wage for migrant workers. It would make US citizens more competitive for those jobs and the workers who are good enough to deserve the wage would make a decent living.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #103 on: September 10, 2013, 12:32:16 PM »

I really do think that maybe there is some benefit to raising the minimum wage for migrant workers. It would make US citizens more competitive for those jobs and the workers who are good enough to deserve the wage would make a decent living.

If they're good enough employees, they should have no problem commanding higher wages with their work ethic.  Quality workforce is a commodity - and if employers don't see that as true, they won't be in business very long.  Wage legislation only rewards the unskilled, which eventually can only harm them when the cost of living increases.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline EMAWmeister

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 8957
  • Livin' it up
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #104 on: September 10, 2013, 12:46:14 PM »

I really do think that maybe there is some benefit to raising the minimum wage for migrant workers. It would make US citizens more competitive for those jobs and the workers who are good enough to deserve the wage would make a decent living.

If they're good enough employees, they should have no problem commanding higher wages with their work ethic.  Quality workforce is a commodity - and if employers don't see that as true, they won't be in business very long.  Wage legislation only rewards the unskilled, which eventually can only harm them when the cost of living increases.

Minimum wage jobs, IMO, should motivate you to go gain the skills and knowledge to earn higher wages.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #105 on: September 10, 2013, 12:52:04 PM »

I really do think that maybe there is some benefit to raising the minimum wage for migrant workers. It would make US citizens more competitive for those jobs and the workers who are good enough to deserve the wage would make a decent living.

If they're good enough employees, they should have no problem commanding higher wages with their work ethic.  Quality workforce is a commodity - and if employers don't see that as true, they won't be in business very long.  Wage legislation only rewards the unskilled, which eventually can only harm them when the cost of living increases.

Migrant workers don't have as many opportunities to move on from their shitty minimum wage job, though. Setting a higher wage for them would give some incentive for an employer to hire a US citizen who actually wants the job while rewarding the migrant worker for working a job below the market rate that qualified US citizens are willing to accept with a more reasonable wage.

Offline CNS

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 36786
  • I'm Athletes
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #106 on: September 10, 2013, 12:57:03 PM »

I really do think that maybe there is some benefit to raising the minimum wage for migrant workers. It would make US citizens more competitive for those jobs and the workers who are good enough to deserve the wage would make a decent living.

If they're good enough employees, they should have no problem commanding higher wages with their work ethic.  Quality workforce is a commodity - and if employers don't see that as true, they won't be in business very long.  Wage legislation only rewards the unskilled, which eventually can only harm them when the cost of living increases.

Migrant workers don't have as many opportunities to move on from their shitty minimum wage job, though. Setting a higher wage for them would give some incentive for an employer to hire a US citizen who actually wants the job while rewarding the migrant worker for working a job below the market rate that qualified US citizens are willing to accept with a more reasonable wage.

Being a US Citizen shouldn't be rewarded by being overpaid. 

Raising the min wage should be related to inflation.  If the govt wants to effect the poor, they should do so by other methods.

I mean, I think there are plenty of ppl out there that stopped flipping burgers and got a technical training cert, an associates, or something like that simply because they weren't earning enough as a burger flipper.  If you paid them 30k, they would remain flipping burgers.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #107 on: September 10, 2013, 01:06:49 PM »

I really do think that maybe there is some benefit to raising the minimum wage for migrant workers. It would make US citizens more competitive for those jobs and the workers who are good enough to deserve the wage would make a decent living.

If they're good enough employees, they should have no problem commanding higher wages with their work ethic.  Quality workforce is a commodity - and if employers don't see that as true, they won't be in business very long.  Wage legislation only rewards the unskilled, which eventually can only harm them when the cost of living increases.

Migrant workers don't have as many opportunities to move on from their shitty minimum wage job, though. Setting a higher wage for them would give some incentive for an employer to hire a US citizen who actually wants the job while rewarding the migrant worker for working a job below the market rate that qualified US citizens are willing to accept with a more reasonable wage.

Being a US Citizen shouldn't be rewarded by being overpaid. 

Raising the min wage should be related to inflation.  If the govt wants to effect the poor, they should do so by other methods.

I mean, I think there are plenty of ppl out there that stopped flipping burgers and got a technical training cert, an associates, or something like that simply because they weren't earning enough as a burger flipper.  If you paid them 30k, they would remain flipping burgers.

I'm not suggesting they get overpaid. I want to keep the US citizens' pay the same and raise the wage of the migrant worker. If the US citizen wants a job, this allows him to undercut the migrant worker and find work. If the US citizen is still unwilling to work for less than the migrant minimum wage, then the migrant worker is still underpaid, but much better off than he is now. I'm not really sure what the problem would be.

I think the minimum wage should be higher for people over 30, too. If you are 30 and flipping burgers, and you aren't worth more than a 16 year old kid to your employer, then you should get laid off and the 16 year old kid should get a crack at building his/her resume.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #108 on: September 10, 2013, 01:32:00 PM »
I was trolling earlier, but I can see I should ask this as a serious question. If you think even having a minimum wage is a good idea; Why not raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour?
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #109 on: September 10, 2013, 01:35:49 PM »
I was trolling earlier, but I can see I should ask this as a serious question. If you think even having a minimum wage is a good idea; Why not raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour?

I don't like having the same minimum wage for everybody. I think it should vary based upon age and citizenship. A $100 minimum wage for people over 60 might not be such a bad idea.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #110 on: September 10, 2013, 01:37:26 PM »
You should really read some books on basic economics.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #111 on: September 10, 2013, 01:41:23 PM »
You should really read some books on basic economics.

Why? What do those books say about a tiered minimum wage structure?

Offline CNS

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 36786
  • I'm Athletes
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #112 on: September 10, 2013, 01:45:15 PM »
Hardly anyone wants to hire senior citizens now.  Making them like 10x more expensive won't help them at all.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #113 on: September 10, 2013, 01:48:04 PM »
Hardly anyone wants to hire senior citizens now.  Making them like 10x more expensive won't help them at all.

Who said anything about helping them? If they aren't better than the younger guy in a lower tier (and it's not like 50 yr olds would be eligible to work for $7.25 in this scenario) then they can hit the road.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 7656
  • 1cat
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #114 on: September 10, 2013, 01:54:45 PM »
The wage a company sets is should be reflected in what they expect from their employees, and they in turn hire the people they believe will fulfill that expectation.

In and Out is a perfect example.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #115 on: September 10, 2013, 02:13:27 PM »

You should really read some books on basic economics.

Why? What do those books say about a tiered minimum wage structure?

Nothing I've read about "tiered" minimum wage.  But depending on whether you prefer to read economist that suggest policy that's lead to the crap pile we're currently experiencing or reading the economists that have predicted every major financial collapse over the last 30 years; the message differs.

The laissez fair guys say any wage manipulation will have unintended consequences.  Specifically layoffs/unemployment and higher cost of living. They've been saying the same thing for 100 years...  But they must be wrong... because...  We haven't seen unemployment rise while cost of living has gone up... Have we? 

So what do you think would happen if everyone made $100 an hour?  The thought experiment is really no different than your tiered example: as you're forcing the market to produce something that it clearly would not arrive at naturally.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #116 on: September 10, 2013, 02:22:50 PM »
I think that regardless of minimum wage, most people perform services for goods, and if they cost of those goods goes up, the wage they demand for their services will go up accordingly. I don't really see raising base salaries having much of an impact on the economy, at least in the long term. A tiered structure would be different, though, because it wouldn't necessarily raise the cost of all goods. It would just be a good way for motivated young people to find work and propel themselves to successful lives. It would also provide incentive for people with crappy jobs to either do well enough to make themselves worth the incremental raise the minimum wage would dictate or further their education/trade skill so they can work for more than minimum wage anyway.

I really think that way too many people are looking at Walmart and fast food jobs as career paths rather than just temporary jobs to work until they can find something better.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #117 on: September 10, 2013, 03:03:12 PM »

I think that regardless of minimum wage, most people perform services for goods, and if they cost of those goods goes up, the wage they demand for their services will go up accordingly. I don't really see raising base salaries having much of an impact on the economy, at least in the long term. A tiered structure would be different, though, because it wouldn't necessarily raise the cost of all goods. It would just be a good way for motivated young people to find work and propel themselves to successful lives. It would also provide incentive for people with crappy jobs to either do well enough to make themselves worth the incremental raise the minimum wage would dictate or further their education/trade skill so they can work for more than minimum wage anyway.

I really think that way too many people are looking at Walmart and fast food jobs as career paths rather than just temporary jobs to work until they can find something better.

If forcing employers to pay employees more doesn't raise all goods, then clearly you can acknowledge it raises the price of some goods - which in turn, somewhere down the line DOES affects all goods.   That's how it works.  Where do you expect that extra money to come from?

How does a tiered wage motivate people to better themselves?  Are they not smart enough to realize that there are jobs out there that pay better than Burger King without tiered minimum wages?  Isn't what you're proposing exactly like how the economy works naturally?  More skill has more pay?  Because if it didnt, who in the hell would work somewhere that required more skill if it didnt pay more?

 What exactly are you trying to accomplish by raising the minimum wage?  If you really think too many people look at Walmart and Burger King as careers, what's the problem?  Do you not like buying crappy things really cheap? Do you think these people are capable of commanding a higher wage, but don't for some reason? 

The truth is, some people and some jobs are only worth $1 an hour.  Which isn't actually all that bad, because it produces cheap products and people that are typically unproductive, because they're not skilled enough for minimum wage, can actually get a job - earn money and buy cheap crap.

It's win/win and it's exactly why so many companies outsource their labor to other countries.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #118 on: September 10, 2013, 03:24:03 PM »
Yes, HeinBallz, just about everybody is capable of developing a skillset beyond running a cash register at Walmart. It only takes motivation, and the threat of losing your job is better motivation than the allure of a better paying job that would require learning a new skillset while you already have a job that keeps you right at the poverty line.

Offline Institutional Control

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 14993
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #119 on: September 10, 2013, 03:31:18 PM »
I'm siding with the neotards here, raising the minimum wage only increases inflation.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #120 on: September 10, 2013, 07:22:47 PM »

Yes, HeinBallz, just about everybody is capable of developing a skillset beyond running a cash register at Walmart. It only takes motivation, and the threat of losing your job is better motivation than the allure of a better paying job that would require learning a new skillset while you already have a job that keeps you right at the poverty line.

Right... When you have no initiative to better yourself, losing your job is a great motivator. That's why we have an unprecedented level of people on food stamps. 

 :facepalm:
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37162
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #121 on: September 10, 2013, 11:37:03 PM »

Yes, HeinBallz, just about everybody is capable of developing a skillset beyond running a cash register at Walmart. It only takes motivation, and the threat of losing your job is better motivation than the allure of a better paying job that would require learning a new skillset while you already have a job that keeps you right at the poverty line.

Right... When you have no initiative to better yourself, losing your job is a great motivator. That's why we have an unprecedented level of people on food stamps. 

 :facepalm:

People on food stamps who work outnumber those without jobs by 3 to 1 so I'm really not seeing your point here.

Offline Bloodfart

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5663
  • I don't run out of gas.
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2013, 11:53:05 PM »

Yes, HeinBallz, just about everybody is capable of developing a skillset beyond running a cash register at Walmart. It only takes motivation, and the threat of losing your job is better motivation than the allure of a better paying job that would require learning a new skillset while you already have a job that keeps you right at the poverty line.

Right... When you have no initiative to better yourself, losing your job is a great motivator. That's why we have an unprecedented level of people on food stamps. 

 :facepalm:

People on food stamps who work outnumber those without jobs by 3 to 1 so I'm really not seeing your point here.

fraud

Offline hemmy

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6676
  • RIP The After Party
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #123 on: September 17, 2013, 11:02:05 AM »
You can make 60K on welfare?  damn

Offline slucat

  • GIRL ALERT, GIRL ALERT
  • Combo-Fan
  • **
  • Posts: 706
  • This SLU, not the city
    • View Profile
Re: Time to raise the minimum wage again...
« Reply #124 on: September 17, 2013, 12:43:04 PM »
With the loss of manufacturing for multiple reasons; overseas and tech based ones, most jobs-new jobs are low skilled.  The US has moved from a production society to a service based one.  There aren't a lot of other jobs to be had to WM and fast food are where the jobs are at.  The world needs ditch diggers-not everyone can hack college-just these days backhoes dig ditches faster than some joe-no collar.

Not sure of the solution, but the argument that someone should aim higher isn't the answer.  These days the target just isn't there.

<edited to correct spelling>
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 03:26:52 PM by slucat »