Buy American

[Kat Kid]

Before I get started here: In every collective bargaining arrangement ever, there are two sides that come to an agreement.  Why are management's shitty negotiating skills never blamed?  How could you possibly blame stud union negotiators for getting themselves a good deal? 

That's not true with regard to the state. And that's a huge part of the problem with public-sector unions. Those government officials are elected by the same people they are supposedly negotiating with.

How is that not true?  There are all kinds of budgeting/hiring/firing authorities for different departments all over the place, but ultimately the government is accountable to the people.  Which you are apparently aware of.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

 

Hey KatKit, what's managements leverage in these so-called negotiations?  Close the business, or in this case the City?  You're rough ridin' clueless.

If I'm a tax payer in Detroit who has likely seen his job prospects evaporate along with the value of his real property, all under the City's watch, I'm telling City employees to jump in the bath with me.  And then I'd drown them for being so selfish.

Detroit is a microcosm of the lefts ideological economic state.  Its a huge rough ridin' loser, just like they are.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Also, gtfoo with these "upholding a contract" arguments.  They filed for BK you idiots.

Also, KSU is right the people they elected promised them this stuff paid for with opm (other peoples money). eff them and the social welfare state they created, which predictably imploaded.  Remember, "this is our govt."

[Kat Kid]

Hey KatKit, what's managements leverage in these so-called negotiations?  Close the business, or in this case the City?  You're rough ridin' clueless.

If I'm a tax payer in Detroit who has likely seen his job prospects evaporate along with the value of his real property, all under the City's watch, I'm telling City employees to jump in the bath with me.  And then I'd drown them for being so selfish.

Detroit is a microcosm of the lefts ideological economic state.  Its a huge rough ridin' loser, just like they are.

Well, not sure if you've heard, but cities close schools or offices or sell off government property all the time.  So while they cannot completely escape the responsibility of providing certain public services there is a pretty big sliding scale in terms of services provided.  For instance: the quality of police/fire services, the quality of public schools, the quality of roads, the quality of parks and rec depts. etc.

Well, there are a bunch of examples of how the state can exercise leverage.  The state could just refuse to enforce the contract (as they are doing in this case and many others), the state could make it illegal for state workers to strike, lay off workers or enforce pay cuts in the form of furloughs.  But those are all corrective measures.  The entire point I was making was that better budgeting and hiring decisions should've been made on the front end.

[Kat Kid]

Also, gtfoo with these "upholding a contract" arguments.  They filed for BK you idiots.

Also, KSU is right the people they elected promised them this stuff paid for with opm (other peoples money). eff them and the social welfare state they created, which predictably imploaded.  Remember, "this is our govt."

You mean like a CEO's salary getting paid by shareholders?  What kind of asinine concept of ownership do you have?  Take a lap dumbass.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

A simple, "thanks for pointing out the fatal fallacy in my argument" would have sufficed, katkid.

Also the BOD sets CEO compensation, Dumbass.

[Kat Kid]

A simple, "thanks for pointing out the fatal fallacy in my argument" would have sufficed, katkid.

Also the BOD sets CEO compensation, Dumbass.

With OSM (other shareholder's money)!!!11 ZOMG!11

[Kat Kid]

How can the BOD even negotiate salaries when they are just elected by the shareholders and promise the CEO a ponzi scheme salary with OPM?  Such B.S.

[Kat Kid]

Paid a kid to paint my address on the curb.  Thought it was a great example of entrepreneurship....Little did I know, he was just lazily getting rich off OPM.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Dammit, there are too many acronyms flying around here. Knock it off.

And as for the government being accountable to the public for the deals it makes with public sector unions, that's a bit of a stretch. See, that only works if there are grownups in charge of the government (e.g., Scott Walker). Public sector unions spend a lot of money to make sure that doesn't happen, and they can spend their members' dues on electioneering because the people they vote into office are only too glad to spend our money on funding a good chunk of the benefits! And the cycle continues...

Not saying the cycle can't be broken (e.g., Scott Walker), it's just really, really hard. It obviously hasn't happened in Detroit, with disastrous consequences, and the same crap is happening in California. Moreover, as the situation gets worse and worse, more conservatives jump ship, which leaves a bigger and bigger majority of liberals, who continue to vote liberals into power, who continue to spend irresponsibly... again, it's a vicious cycle. Ultimately, the liberal majority devours itself, but they also destroy anything they govern in the process.

[CNS]

Hold the phone!!!!

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-order/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Court says, nope!

[Tobias]

Hold the phone!!!!

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-order/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Court says, nope!

a fella can't even go bankrupt without it being unconstitutional.

OBAMA! 

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Love it. Lifelong democrat circuit judge says filing bankruptcy (a matter of federal jurisdiction) is unconstitutional. "Der, ok judge!  We'll just pretend we're not broke!" 

My favorite part was the judge's recommendation that her order be sent to President Obama because he said he wouldn't let this happen. 

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Yeah, that judge is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  Which appears to be KatKids new m.o. ITT.

[Kat Kid]

Yeah, that judge is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  Which appears to be KatKids new m.o. ITT.

You down with OPM?

[sys]

detroit may have rapacious public employees and may have incompetent and/or corrupt city mgmt.  i have no idea.

however, even if they had highly skilled labor willing to work for peanuts and efficient and scrupulous mgmt, they'd have an almost impossible problem.  their tax base has collapsed (i'm guessing about a third of their peak?  kk, do you know?) and they're charged with maintaining the infrastructure and services of a city twice it's current size.

it's kind of fascinating.  we have tons of examples of how a city can grow - both well and poorly.  there are few examples of how to successfully contract.  maybe no examples.

[p1k3]

I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.

I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal.

Do city employees make less than similarly educated private employees? I know they work a hell of a lot less hours.

Usually they have a lower base salary, but the benefits make their compensation competitive and often better than the private sector. I'm not really sure why that matters, though. Do you turn down a job because the pay is better than the average in your field?

Not necessarily, but by the same token, nobody forced them to join the ranks of the groaning bureaucracy, and one might have thought twice before taking a job paid for with tax dollars where a good chunk of the compensation is in the form of future payments from a ponzi-scheme pension fund. (I think this is the high-minded finger wagging to which KK refers. )

Right.  Also, no one forces any of the legislatures to actually fund what they promise.  You know who always funds what is legally required of them?  The workers.  Because it is withheld from their paychecks.  So I'd just like to see an America where contracts were held up by both sides.

It really is amazing how much Americans criticize the labor side in disputes like this and how little they demand of the capital/management side

It's because the Unions have management by the balls. A group of Thug Union Bosses walk into your facility and convince everyone they can get the workers higher wages and a pension till they die. Then they unionize and it's over. Management has to hold up their end for as long as they can but promising someone money till the day they die just doesn't work sometimes.

[p1k3]

I have personally dealt with UFCW Local 8. These guys are crooks. I mean this one guy makes $110,000/year to go around and talk to workers and drink coffee and sit in on grievance hearings twice a year. Check the LM2 filing with BLS. Unions don't actually produce anything, obviously, and therefore can't possibly help the economy. They just rob from businesses and their workers.

[Kat Kid]

detroit may have rapacious public employees and may have incompetent and/or corrupt city mgmt.  i have no idea.

however, even if they had highly skilled labor willing to work for peanuts and efficient and scrupulous mgmt, they'd have an almost impossible problem.  their tax base has collapsed (i'm guessing about a third of their peak?  kk, do you know?) and they're charged with maintaining the infrastructure and services of a city twice it's current size.

it's kind of fascinating.  we have tons of examples of how a city can grow - both well and poorly.  there are few examples of how to successfully contract.  maybe no examples.

good guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit

The population decline drying up the tax base is obviously an enormous problem.  The corrupt politicians and unresponsive public servants are just some of the reasons people left.  I have a hard time imagining a city where you would have a highly skilled workforce, diligent and honest civil servants, yada yada that had the problems Detroit has.

The other issue is that Detroit is not very dense (and the population at this point within metro Detroit is VERY unevenly distributed) with very little public transit so it is very unweildly to use a central governing model to cover all of the ground.  It needs to break up in to wards or just re-draw the city limits and let the abandoned areas re-constitute as their own townships or something.

[Kat Kid]

I have personally dealt with UFCW Local 8. These guys are crooks. I mean this one guy makes $110,000/year to go around and talk to workers and drink coffee and sit in on grievance hearings twice a year. Check the LM2 filing with BLS. Unions don't actually produce anything, obviously, and therefore can't possibly help the economy. They just rob from businesses and their workers.

Obviously.

[sys]

I mean this one guy makes $110,000/year to go around and talk to workers and drink coffee.

this describes at least 20 people at the job site where i've been working.  except a lot of them make way more than 110k and instead of just talking and drinking coffee, they also spend a lot of time talking and smoking.

[sys]

btw, pike's outrage about his sixfigga union boss is v. funny.

[Kat Kid]

btw, pike's outrage about his sixfigga union boss is v. funny.

Sounds like class warfare jealousy about a H.S. grad pulling himself up by his boot straps, working hard and carving out a piece of America for himself.

[wetwillie]

KK for mayor of detroit.

[Headinjun]

GM CEO: Auto industry had role in Detroit fiscal slide

It's simply a matter of macro-economics. The (auto) industry generally wasn't doing well. Many jobs were lost as the result of the restructuring, including our own, and the tax base in large measure evaporated," he said in an interview at USA TODAY headquarters in McLean, Va., today.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/07/19/gm-ceo-akerson-bankruptcy-detroit-competition/2568787/

This is the biggest variable.