Kansas City things

[michigancat]

Yup, can't please everybody, just the 300 people who live in downtown's TDD who got a free toy train to look at!

I think it makes a lot of kc folks outside of that area feel better about their inferiority complex.

Ahhh the old inferiority complex angle. Always a favorite.

I mean, when a group of people scream that they need public transportation but are too snotty to demean themselves to ride a (gulp) bus...I don't know whether it's an inferiority complex but it's certainly something.

I think it ties back to them seeing white people riding trains in what they consider to be "real cities". Just a theory though.

[Phil Titola]

Almost everyone I know backing the streetcar rides the bus on the regular....the dorks that say they will ride the streetcar but never ride a bus are typically the hayseed immigrants from Western Kansas... And I'm all on board with saying they have some sort of weird complex.

[Phil Titola]

Yup, can't please everybody, just the 300 people who live in downtown's TDD who got a free toy train to look at!

I think it makes a lot of kc folks outside of that area feel better about their inferiority complex.

Ahhh the old inferiority complex angle. Always a favorite.

I mean, when a group of people scream that they need public transportation but are too snotty to demean themselves to ride a (gulp) bus...I don't know whether it's an inferiority complex but it's certainly something.

I think it ties back to them seeing white people riding trains in what they consider to be "real cities". Just a theory though.

I think that is a solid theory. Let's just not blanket the entire KC metro with it.

[DQ12]

Almost everyone I know backing the streetcar rides the bus on the regular....the dorks that say they will ride the streetcar but never ride a bus are typically the hayseed immigrants from Western Kansas... And I'm all on board with saying they have some sort of weird complex.

OK so it sounds like we're at least in agreement that the streetcar adds next to nothing to the existing public transportation -- at least nothing that a few more busses or routes wouldn't. 

It's a gimmick meant to spike development around the streetcar line. 

[Phil Titola]

Not one person has ever stated this 2 mile line alone is some sort of transit savior.

[pissclams]

Almost everyone I know backing the streetcar rides the bus on the regular....the dorks that say they will ride the streetcar but never ride a bus are typically the hayseed immigrants from Western Kansas... And I'm all on board with saying they have some sort of weird complex.

OK so it sounds like we're at least in agreement that the streetcar adds next to nothing to the existing public transportation -- at least nothing that a few more busses or routes wouldn't. 

It's a gimmick meant to spike development around the streetcar line. 

which is great because these guys can't stop talking about a main street - UMKC expansion
can't wait for the development to hit that underdeveloped area

[DQ12]

Not one person has ever stated this 2 mile line alone is some sort of transit savior.

I'm not saying it has to be a transit savior.  I'm saying that the streetcar, along with whatever other city-wide line (that may or may not happen), seems completely superfluous from a transportation perspective. 

[Phil Titola]

Not one person has ever stated this 2 mile line alone is some sort of transit savior.

I'm not saying it has to be a transit savior.  I'm saying that the streetcar, along with whatever other city-wide line (that may or may not happen), seems completely superfluous from a transportation perspective.

I'm not going to agree with terms like gimmicky and superfluous when it comes to building out a city wide fixed line that could include commuter rail from the east and Southwest along with streetcar lines South and over the river to the north. Nextrailkc.com would be where I'd point you for much more in depth info that I can give you if you are truly interested.

[wELLsculptedbrows]

Bitching about "hayseed immigrants from Western Kansas" is a pretty perfect example of the cowtown complex you're trying to deny.

[pissclams]

streetcar supporters keep conflating light rail and the streetcar.  no, the streetcar is not a piece of the greater public transportation system.

[Phil Titola]

streetcar supporters keep conflating light rail and the streetcar.  no, the streetcar is not a piece of the greater public transportation system.

Okay.
http://humantransit.org/2010/03/streetcars-vs-light-rail-is-there-a-difference.html

[pissclams]

streetcar supporters keep conflating light rail and the streetcar.  no, the streetcar is not a piece of the greater public transportation system.

Okay.
http://humantransit.org/2010/03/streetcars-vs-light-rail-is-there-a-difference.html

lol at a blog written by jarrett walker (is this the appropriate way to dismiss the article?)

[AppleJack]

what about a party streetcar. Is that something everyone can get behind?

[Emo EMAW]

what about a party streetcar. Is that something everyone can get behind?

As long as we can keep the homeless off it.

[DQ12]

Not one person has ever stated this 2 mile line alone is some sort of transit savior.

I'm not saying it has to be a transit savior.  I'm saying that the streetcar, along with whatever other city-wide line (that may or may not happen), seems completely superfluous from a transportation perspective.

I'm not going to agree with terms like gimmicky and superfluous when it comes to building out a city wide fixed line that could include commuter rail from the east and Southwest along with streetcar lines South and over the river to the north.

Right.  But your post makes several assumptions, namely:

1.  That the broader city lines will be built;
2.  That enough people will use them so that it can be considered actually useful; and if 1 and 2 are true
3.  That a similar bus system, if implemented, would fail (for whatever reason)

I don't think any one of those things are true, and all three of them must be true for this thing to be anything other than superfluous, imho.

Now, if it is superfluous, and it's mainly aimed at increasing development around the line or lines, then fine.  I get that.  But if that's the case, then I think the streetcar is less about transportation, and more about having a fun (albeit risky) gimmick to spur business. 

[Phil Titola]

Streetcars have been known to focus development and that was one of the benefits touted of the KC line. Just not the only benefit.

There is one sure fire way to ensure a city wide system doesn't get built, that is to never start it. This is the beginning of hopefully many expansions.

[DQ12]

Streetcars have been known to focus development and that was one of the benefits touted of the KC line. Just not the only benefit.

There is one sure fire way to ensure a city wide system doesn't get built, that is to never start it. This is the beginning of hopefully many expansions.

There's also one sure fire way to ensure that a city doesn't blow millions of dollars on what may be a really stupid idea, that is to never start it.

You still haven't explained to me the transportation benefits of a streetcar that a bus doesn't offer. 

[michigancat]

Would downtown KC ever have the mass that would require commuter rail, or even make it useful? Hard to imagine with the availability of cheap land and municipalities and states poaching large employers from other parts of the metro.

[pissclams]

what about a party streetcar. Is that something everyone can get behind?

the party trolley car has gone out of business, twice.  maybe just not enough development along its lines.

[Phil Titola]

Streetcars have been known to focus development and that was one of the benefits touted of the KC line. Just not the only benefit.

There is one sure fire way to ensure a city wide system doesn't get built, that is to never start it. This is the beginning of hopefully many expansions.

There's also one sure fire way to ensure that a city doesn't blow millions of dollars on what may be a really stupid idea, that is to never start it.

You still haven't explained to me the transportation benefits of a streetcar that a bus doesn't offer.

Feel free to google fix rail vs bus... I'm obviously not going to convince you as I'm in no way a transit expert.

[Phil Titola]

Would downtown KC ever have the mass that would require commuter rail, or even make it useful? Hard to imagine with the availability of cheap land and municipalities and states poaching large employers from other parts of the metro.

That is a big question given kc past after the original streetcar line was removed. A fixed commuter line would begin to focus suburban development too... Instead of this shotgun approach kc metro suburbs have now.

[michigancat]

I'm in no way a transit expert.

You kind of talk down to people opposed to the streetcar like you are.

['taterblast]

last night me and ms. blast met some friends at the opera house in the city market and commented on how it would have been perfect for the streetcar. so thank you to everyone who is chipping in for this thing that i will eventually use occasionally.

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

im no civil engineer or city planning expert (i work in investment banking) but i have a close friend who is a civil engineer and works at a transportation firm and he says just about everyone at his office thinks the street car is a gigantic waste of money.

[Phil Titola]

Apologize if I come off that way to actual valid questions vs "streetcar is dumb" comments. Not my intent.