The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread

[sys]

Sys I'm curious if, let's say there's some finite amount of energy in the wind over some area or control volume.  I assume that must be the case.  What if we were harvest a significant amount of that wind?  I'm not sure what that amount is, but let's just assume we could and would want to harvest as much as possible.  Couldn't that create some change of some sort?  I assume it could.

where is that energy going without wind power?  eventually it hits something and is transferred, right?  so it's just a matter of what it hits and where.  i can see some local effects, and changes in weather distribution but i don't see a mechanism for any net change in global energy flow.

[Gooch]

Has anyone stopped to consider what would happen if we harvested a significant amount of energy from the wind?  Might that change climate too?  How much square footage of solar panels would it take to power my house?  I would guess more than the size of my lot.  No idea tho.

My mom was looking at a development of normal 2br houses that are all fully powered by solar panels on the roof

I'm hoping by the time I need to replace the roof on my new house I can get those new shingles that Elon Musk and Tesla are going in on together. The are supposed to cost the equivalent to clay tiles. I just worry about hail from all the super storms we seem to be having now that have zero to do with climate change according to the Dax's of the world.

[sys]

6000 sq ft.

i'll assume somewhere with medium insolation, and i'll assume you want decent panels.  probably in the realm of 1200 sq feet = 40 panels.

[Emo EMAW]

Sys I'm curious if, let's say there's some finite amount of energy in the wind over some area or control volume.  I assume that must be the case.  What if we were harvest a significant amount of that wind?  I'm not sure what that amount is, but let's just assume we could and would want to harvest as much as possible.  Couldn't that create some change of some sort?  I assume it could.

where is that energy going without wind power?  eventually it hits something and is transferred, right?  so it's just a matter of what it hits and where.  i can see some local effects, and changes in weather distribution but i don't see a mechanism for any net change in global energy flow.

Well what creates wind?  There must be energy in some form that is turned into wind, yes?  What if there is some sort of catalytic feedback loop where wind begets more wind?  And then we build all these turbines and harvest all the wind out of the air?  Well now they're worthless, and we have no wind to do some very essential things for life to exist. 

[Emo EMAW]

6000 sq ft.

i'll assume somewhere with medium insolation, and i'll assume you want decent panels.  probably in the realm of 1200 sq feet = 40 panels.

That was my parents house.  I would never build such a monstrosity, even if I had a score of Berkshire Class A shares.

But, basically you're saying in a KS climate the area of my roof may be enough to power my house?  That is very exciting.

[Emo EMAW]

Has anyone stopped to consider what would happen if we harvested a significant amount of energy from the wind?  Might that change climate too?  How much square footage of solar panels would it take to power my house?  I would guess more than the size of my lot.  No idea tho.

My mom was looking at a development of normal 2br houses that are all fully powered by solar panels on the roof

I'm hoping by the time I need to replace the roof on my new house I can get those new shingles that Elon Musk and Tesla are going in on together. The are supposed to cost the equivalent to clay tiles. I just worry about hail from all the super storms we seem to be having now that have zero to do with climate change according to the Dax's of the world.

Those look awesome.  Insurance might be high but who cares. 

[sys]

But, basically you're saying in a KS climate the area of my roof may be enough to power my house?  That is very exciting.

oh, for sure, space isn't an issue unless you're in like a five story house or something.


where you live makes a huge difference.  move to the southwest and your panels are like twice as good.  i don't know if solar pays off in eastern kansas.

[sys]

Well what creates wind?  There must be energy in some form that is turned into wind, yes?  What if there is some sort of catalytic feedback loop where wind begets more wind?  And then we build all these turbines and harvest all the wind out of the air?  Well now they're worthless, and we have no wind to do some very essential things for life to exist.

wind is created by air pressure.


this is an interesting idea.  i'm going to have to google this crap for a while unless chingon pops in and settles the issue.

[Emo EMAW]

Sys will you come to my annual HOA meeting next January?

[sys]

actually, that didn't take long.  this satisfies me.

Ultimately, pretty much all energy in the wind ends up as low-grade heat. And that's regardless of whether or not it gets there via a wind turbine or not. If not, it will eventually dissipate due to friction, where it becomes ambient low-grade heat. If it is, then it will get converted into electricity, then some energy service (e.g. lighting), and then ambient low-grade heat.

So deploying lots of wind turbines just moves where that energy gets taken out of the wind, but not how much.

[sys]

Sys will you come to my annual HOA meeting next January?

you should move, hoa's are the devil.

[star seed 7]

Has anyone stopped to consider what would happen if we harvested a significant amount of energy from the wind?  Might that change climate too?  How much square footage of solar panels would it take to power my house?  I would guess more than the size of my lot.  No idea tho.

My mom was looking at a development of normal 2br houses that are all fully powered by solar panels on the roof

What is a normal 2br house?  Have never heard of such a thing.  Like my parents built a 6000 sq ft 2br house but that also does not seem normal.  Even PV is all 3br and those things are closets.

Trying to converse with you is such a beating sometimes

[Mrs. Gooch]

According to this article, wind farms do not alter climate. I haev not done extensive research though.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/myth-debunked-wind-farms-dont-alter-climate-180949701/

[Tobias]

fun mental image of Emo spending months strategizing how to wear down the HOA president with questions at the annual meeting to the point where he's permitted to spell out "YETI" in solar panels on his roof

[Emo EMAW]

actually, that didn't take long.  this satisfies me.

Ultimately, pretty much all energy in the wind ends up as low-grade heat. And that's regardless of whether or not it gets there via a wind turbine or not. If not, it will eventually dissipate due to friction, where it becomes ambient low-grade heat. If it is, then it will get converted into electricity, then some energy service (e.g. lighting), and then ambient low-grade heat.

So deploying lots of wind turbines just moves where that energy gets taken out of the wind, but not how much.

Well don't some important life processes happen along the way?  Even if the end (low grade heat) may be the same, the journey is different.

[Emo EMAW]

Has anyone stopped to consider what would happen if we harvested a significant amount of energy from the wind?  Might that change climate too?  How much square footage of solar panels would it take to power my house?  I would guess more than the size of my lot.  No idea tho.

My mom was looking at a development of normal 2br houses that are all fully powered by solar panels on the roof

What is a normal 2br house?  Have never heard of such a thing.  Like my parents built a 6000 sq ft 2br house but that also does not seem normal.  Even PV is all 3br and those things are closets.

Trying to converse with you is such a beating sometimes

Sorry.  Sys is much more succinct in his responses.  You should try that.

[halfEmpty]

Sys I'm curious if, let's say there's some finite amount of energy in the wind over some area or control volume.  I assume that must be the case.  What if we were harvest a significant amount of that wind?  I'm not sure what that amount is, but let's just assume we could and would want to harvest as much as possible.  Couldn't that create some change of some sort?  I assume it could.

where is that energy going without wind power?  eventually it hits something and is transferred, right?  so it's just a matter of what it hits and where.  i can see some local effects, and changes in weather distribution but i don't see a mechanism for any net change in global energy flow.

Well what creates wind?  There must be energy in some form that is turned into wind, yes?  What if there is some sort of catalytic feedback loop where wind begets more wind?  And then we build all these turbines and harvest all the wind out of the air?  Well now they're worthless, and we have no wind to do some very essential things for life to exist.

Air pressure creates wind in a nutshell.  Low pressure sucks air in and up (hence why low pressure is usually attributed to rain), high pressure blows it out.  Pressure gradients are caused by uneven surface heating across the globe and other localized factors.

[CHONGS]

Hint: emo isn't asking questions to get answers.

[Emo EMAW]

My point is that we ought to be aware of unintended consequences.  Many years ago hippies were hailing the construction of hydroelectric dams, now they are championing their removal.  Strange bunch.

[CHONGS]

See

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

According to this article, wind farms do not alter climate. I haev not done extensive research though.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/myth-debunked-wind-farms-dont-alter-climate-180949701/

That's amazing considered the amount of fossil fuels, steel and concrete it takes to make the parts, and the tens of thousands of acres each farm consumes. Meanwhile, anyone who drives a car is warming the earth.

[sonofdaxjones]

According to this article, wind farms do not alter climate. I haev not done extensive research though.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/myth-debunked-wind-farms-dont-alter-climate-180949701/

That's amazing considered the amount of fossil fuels, steel and concrete it takes to make the parts, and the tens of thousands of acres each farm consumes. Meanwhile, anyone who drives a car is warming the earth.

Massive wind farms are hell on birds, particularly birds of prey.   But oh well, it's inefficient (and expensive) "green energy" after all.

[camKSU]

According to this article, wind farms do not alter climate. I haev not done extensive research though.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/myth-debunked-wind-farms-dont-alter-climate-180949701/

That's amazing considered the amount of fossil fuels, steel and concrete it takes to make the parts, and the tens of thousands of acres each farm consumes. Meanwhile, anyone who drives a car is warming the earth.

Massive wind farms are hell on birds, particularly birds of prey.   But oh well, it's inefficient (and expensive) "green energy" after all.

Daxipad/FSD... Try not be such knuckle-draggers. A decentralized sustainable (aka... virtually infinite) energy grid benefits the planet for decades, if not hundreds, of years into the future. You build it and maintain it and it collects energy FOREVER. Versus say dig it up, burn it, drill down, burn it, create earthquakes, burn it.... You know the old, inefficient, dirty way of producing finite fossil fuel energy. Its negative impacts (messing with birds of prey or migratory birds, etc), while unfortunate and something that should be studied and if possible addressed, are vastly outweighed by it's potential in the market and potential to offset our impact on the planet's climate.

Untuck your rough ridin' shirts, pull the stick out your asses, read a rough ridin' book, and get with times.

[sonofdaxjones]

Not an effing soul on here has said don't develop alternative energy sources.   

But once again, decisions are being driven by bad data and politics.   

But it appears the greenies prefer seeing people living in energy poverty, which is a growing problem in developed countries who are going all-in on alternative (inefficient) energy.   

[wELLsculptedbrows]

My point is that we ought to be aware of unintended consequences.  Many years ago hippies were hailing the construction of hydroelectric dams, now they are championing their removal.  Strange bunch.

Yep, hippies loved dams.