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Offline kstatefreak42

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #125 on: June 10, 2013, 05:47:31 PM »
So obviously 99.9% of people will never be directly affected by this. At least in the sense that Obama is not going to type in "Stevesie60" and see something I did on the internet or my phone that needed his attention. But if this is true, and they do have as much info stored as some have claimed, then what does that mean for the people who hold that information? That would be able to blackmail anyone in the US. That means they could play a heavy hand in elections or getting bills passed that benefited them, etc.
Orwelian Discrimination.
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Offline 0.42

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #126 on: June 10, 2013, 08:24:19 PM »
The moral of this whole story is that Chingon runs the NSA.

Offline Brock Landers

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #127 on: June 10, 2013, 08:43:44 PM »
Bluffdale Utah Data mining center. Holds up to 100yrs worth of communications.


Orwelian Discrimination

Hopefully the next 100 years, otherwise storing a bunch of old-timey telegrams seems silly

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #128 on: June 10, 2013, 10:07:37 PM »
The liberal police state Nazis showing no remorse in this thread.
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Offline felix rex

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #129 on: June 11, 2013, 01:54:54 AM »
And dlew, if it helps, no one is reading your emails. There's a huge difference between the ominous sounding "intercept" and actual "surveillance".

Imagine if the discovery phase in a case worked slightly different, and instead of requesting documents, you had access to a huge repository of potentially relevant data. But if you used your subpoena to access a document you weren't sure was discoverable and hadn't been vetted, you were thrown off the case, suspended without pay and faced possible termination and criminal charges (even if you discovered an unrelated crime and even if that crime was serious).

No one is haphazardly rooting through your stuff.
Yeah but that's not how discovery works and there's a reason for that and I think the reason is more than "we've never had the capacity to create a repository of potentially relevant data."

I understand that no one is reading through my email, but it's still troubling, right?

I'd be interested in hearing your take on whether or not this poses some 4th amendment problem and if so, to what degree?

My legal background consists of a year as a paralegal in business litigation, so I honestly don't feel qualified to say anything too intelligent on it (as my clumsy discovery analogy suggests).

The problem with the discovery analogy is that, in this case, the "other side" would never willingly hand over documents and would likely destroy existing evidence and adjust their communications to avoid creating new evidence if they were made aware of an inquiry.

And again, despite what Snowden says about being able to wiretap the president with a few clicks from his desk in Hawaii, the process doesn't work that way. Every person with access to or even tangential involvement in the system has to pass several tests each year displaying knowledge of the legal restrictions on accessing such information (and the ramifications of doing so incorrectly or irresponsibly). Requests go through layers of approval and authorization and constant oversight from people whose job (and primary incentive) is to detect errant use and discipline those responsible.

So, I guess my take is that the information is already out there. This system makes the info accessible to the relevant authorities but only after probable cause (and a "foreign factor") are established.

I'd be interested how people with your background view that regarding the fourth amendment. FWIW, in my experience our legal department has been very cautious in these sorts of issues (for instance, government agencies or their contractors absolutely cannot run analytics on social media site users, even for the ostensibly benign purpose of measuring the effectiveness of the engagement efforts of our embassies with foreign audiences).

But again, I am by no means an "insider". Maybe it's as Orwellian as kstatefreak and dax think it is. I'm just going by what little non-classified knowledge I have of the program coupled with what I think is an obvious analysis of the irrational statements made so far from Snowden himself, who doesn't strike me as a particularly reliable source. Of course, perhaps I'm casting Snowden as a Benjy Compson while ignoring my own role as Jason.
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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2013, 09:37:43 AM »
Comes down to whether you need a warrant to collect this type of information. Under constitutional law, whether you need a warrant depend upon whether it is a "search," and whether it is a "search" depends upon whether you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the information.

Without question, people definitely have a reasonable expectation of privacy regarding the content of phone calls, e-mails, etc. But what about the meta data associated with those communications? Anyone who understands how a phone call or e-mail works knows that in order to facilitate the communication, you have to share information with the phone company, ISP, etc.

Read Smith v Maryland. It's available in full online, or you can just read the Wiki summary:

Quote
Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the installation and use of the pen register was not a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, and hence no warrant was required. The pen register was installed on telephone company property at the telephone company's central offices. In the Majority opinion, Justice Blackmun rejected the idea that the installation and use of a pen registry constitutes a violation of the "legitimate expectation of privacy" since the numbers would be available to and recorded by the phone company anyway.
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Offline felix rex

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Verizon
« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2013, 09:41:19 AM »
So, Snowden's disappeared from his Hong Kong hotel. Staff, apparently, described him as good-natured, generous, and likeable. In three days no one could stand him.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2013, 09:55:17 AM »
Felix, what did you think of the Friesdorf piece? Do you think this surveillance saves a high number of American lives?

Offline sys

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2013, 10:00:07 AM »
Do you think this surveillance saves a high number of American lives?

how could it?  even if 100% successful, it is bounded by the number of lives at risk.
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Offline CNS

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2013, 10:25:53 AM »
So, Snowden's disappeared from his Hong Kong hotel. Staff, apparently, described him as good-natured, generous, and likeable. In three days no one could stand him.

Triads are Scrooge McDucking as we type.  Good for them, I guess.

Offline felix rex

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Verizon
« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2013, 11:30:48 AM »
Felix, what did you think of the Friesdorf piece? Do you think this surveillance saves a high number of American lives?

How many is high?
"How will I recruit to Manhattan? Well, distance. And the proud state of basketball. It start there, and then daily flights to Dallas, because I'm really good at going out. Like top five good. Ask my wife. She wants me to be happy."

Offline CNS

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2013, 11:34:08 AM »
Lots of things would save lives.  Too easy of a justification. 

Offline michigancat

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2013, 11:35:38 AM »
Felix, what did you think of the Friesdorf piece? Do you think this surveillance saves a high number of American lives?

How many is high?

1000/year?

10000/year?

Offline felix rex

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2013, 11:41:44 AM »
Felix, what did you think of the Friesdorf piece? Do you think this surveillance saves a high number of American lives?

How many is high?

1000/year?

10000/year?

Let's phrase it another way.

Do you think the loss of life is the only or most damaging consequence of terrorist attack, in terms of a country's overall well-being?
"How will I recruit to Manhattan? Well, distance. And the proud state of basketball. It start there, and then daily flights to Dallas, because I'm really good at going out. Like top five good. Ask my wife. She wants me to be happy."

Offline OregonSmock

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #139 on: June 11, 2013, 11:42:33 AM »
Most Liberals 7-8 years ago: "We've got Hitler in the White House"!!!  :curse:

Most Liberals today (after Patriot Act strengthening and multiple re-signings, after indefinite detention, after NDAA etc. etc. etc.):  "We must have these measures to protect American Lives".   "Why is anyone surprised that this is going on, it's been going on for years, this is just the ongoing fight against terrorism."



Conservatives 7-8 years ago:  "Anyone who doesn't support the Iraq war is un-American!"

Most conservatives today (after Patriot Act, Gitmo, abu ghraib, 9/11, NDAA, etc, etc):  "Obama is the worst President of all-time!  He makes Nixon look like a choir boy!  He must be impeached - NOW!!!"

Offline felix rex

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #140 on: June 11, 2013, 11:44:55 AM »
Felix, what did you think of the Friesdorf piece? Do you think this surveillance saves a high number of American lives?

How many is high?

1000/year?

10000/year?

To clarify, I'm trying to avoid "bait" questions like "would you be okay with the government reading your email if it saved 5 lives in another city?"
"How will I recruit to Manhattan? Well, distance. And the proud state of basketball. It start there, and then daily flights to Dallas, because I'm really good at going out. Like top five good. Ask my wife. She wants me to be happy."

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #141 on: June 11, 2013, 11:45:15 AM »
Most Liberals 7-8 years ago: "We've got Hitler in the White House"!!!  :curse:

Most Liberals today (after Patriot Act strengthening and multiple re-signings, after indefinite detention, after NDAA etc. etc. etc.):  "We must have these measures to protect American Lives".   "Why is anyone surprised that this is going on, it's been going on for years, this is just the ongoing fight against terrorism."



Conservatives 7-8 years ago:  "Anyone who doesn't support the Iraq war is un-American!"

Most conservatives today (after Patriot Act, Gitmo, abu ghraib, 9/11, NDAA, etc, etc):  "Obama is the worst President of all-time!  He makes Nixon look like a choir boy!  He must be impeached - NOW!!!"

That wasn't just conservatives, FWIW.

Offline OregonSmock

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #142 on: June 11, 2013, 11:47:12 AM »
Most Liberals 7-8 years ago: "We've got Hitler in the White House"!!!  :curse:

Most Liberals today (after Patriot Act strengthening and multiple re-signings, after indefinite detention, after NDAA etc. etc. etc.):  "We must have these measures to protect American Lives".   "Why is anyone surprised that this is going on, it's been going on for years, this is just the ongoing fight against terrorism."



Conservatives 7-8 years ago:  "Anyone who doesn't support the Iraq war is un-American!"

Most conservatives today (after Patriot Act, Gitmo, abu ghraib, 9/11, NDAA, etc, etc):  "Obama is the worst President of all-time!  He makes Nixon look like a choir boy!  He must be impeached - NOW!!!"

That wasn't just conservatives, FWIW.


Yes it was, FWIW.

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #143 on: June 11, 2013, 11:51:52 AM »
Nope sorry. 

Offline OregonSmock

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #144 on: June 11, 2013, 11:54:31 AM »
beems:  "The Earth revolves around the Sun."

emo:  "Nope, sorry."

Offline michigancat

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #145 on: June 11, 2013, 12:29:03 PM »
Felix, what did you think of the Friesdorf piece? Do you think this surveillance saves a high number of American lives?

How many is high?

1000/year?

10000/year?

Let's phrase it another way.

Do you think the loss of life is the only or most damaging consequence of terrorist attack, in terms of a country's overall well-being?

Probably. But the resultant sacrifice of liberties may be worse. Quite the pickle.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #146 on: June 11, 2013, 12:32:55 PM »
And dlew, if it helps, no one is reading your emails. There's a huge difference between the ominous sounding "intercept" and actual "surveillance".

Imagine if the discovery phase in a case worked slightly different, and instead of requesting documents, you had access to a huge repository of potentially relevant data. But if you used your subpoena to access a document you weren't sure was discoverable and hadn't been vetted, you were thrown off the case, suspended without pay and faced possible termination and criminal charges (even if you discovered an unrelated crime and even if that crime was serious).

No one is haphazardly rooting through your stuff.
Yeah but that's not how discovery works and there's a reason for that and I think the reason is more than "we've never had the capacity to create a repository of potentially relevant data."

I understand that no one is reading through my email, but it's still troubling, right?

I'd be interested in hearing your take on whether or not this poses some 4th amendment problem and if so, to what degree?

My legal background consists of a year as a paralegal in business litigation, so I honestly don't feel qualified to say anything too intelligent on it (as my clumsy discovery analogy suggests).

The problem with the discovery analogy is that, in this case, the "other side" would never willingly hand over documents and would likely destroy existing evidence and adjust their communications to avoid creating new evidence if they were made aware of an inquiry.

And again, despite what Snowden says about being able to wiretap the president with a few clicks from his desk in Hawaii, the process doesn't work that way. Every person with access to or even tangential involvement in the system has to pass several tests each year displaying knowledge of the legal restrictions on accessing such information (and the ramifications of doing so incorrectly or irresponsibly). Requests go through layers of approval and authorization and constant oversight from people whose job (and primary incentive) is to detect errant use and discipline those responsible.

So, I guess my take is that the information is already out there. This system makes the info accessible to the relevant authorities but only after probable cause (and a "foreign factor") are established.

I'd be interested how people with your background view that regarding the fourth amendment. FWIW, in my experience our legal department has been very cautious in these sorts of issues (for instance, government agencies or their contractors absolutely cannot run analytics on social media site users, even for the ostensibly benign purpose of measuring the effectiveness of the engagement efforts of our embassies with foreign audiences).

But again, I am by no means an "insider". Maybe it's as Orwellian as kstatefreak and dax think it is. I'm just going by what little non-classified knowledge I have of the program coupled with what I think is an obvious analysis of the irrational statements made so far from Snowden himself, who doesn't strike me as a particularly reliable source. Of course, perhaps I'm casting Snowden as a Benjy Compson while ignoring my own role as Jason.

I think the oversight is perfunctory with regard to consideration of privacy concerns.

Quote
A quick search through the Electronic Privacy Information Center’s nice table on FISA court applications submitted, accepted, and rejected shows that this is no more than a kangaroo court. Between 1979 and 2012, 33,942 applications were submitted. Of those, a mere 11 were rejected. (The difference between applications proposed and accepted is only 7, but I decided to go with the upper bound they report in their ‘Applications Rejected’ column to give the government the benefit of the doubt.) So the government has a whooping 99.967% batting average in these courts.

http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #147 on: June 11, 2013, 12:49:46 PM »
Most Liberals 7-8 years ago: "We've got Hitler in the White House"!!!  :curse:

Most Liberals today (after Patriot Act strengthening and multiple re-signings, after indefinite detention, after NDAA etc. etc. etc.):  "We must have these measures to protect American Lives".   "Why is anyone surprised that this is going on, it's been going on for years, this is just the ongoing fight against terrorism."



Conservatives 7-8 years ago:  "Anyone who doesn't support the Iraq war is un-American!"

Most conservatives today (after Patriot Act, Gitmo, abu ghraib, 9/11, NDAA, etc, etc):  "Obama is the worst President of all-time!  He makes Nixon look like a choir boy!  He must be impeached - NOW!!!"

The first sentence is not even debately, of course that was the case. 

But this was the administration of Hope and Change remember?


Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #148 on: June 11, 2013, 12:53:18 PM »
Oh and the current VP and the previous SOS were two of the biggest advocates for the second Iraq War, and Bill Clinton tried like hell to drum up another war with Iraq with Gore, Berger and Albright traveling the world telling everyone how dangerous Saddam's WMD's were (all the while they were apparently being dismantled) and how Saddam had to be stopped.   But that's utterly immaterial to the current administrations onslaught on Civil Liberties.




Offline mortons toe

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Re: Verizon
« Reply #149 on: June 11, 2013, 01:01:52 PM »
Oh and the current VP and the previous SOS were two of the biggest advocates for the second Iraq War, and Bill Clinton tried like hell to drum up another war with Iraq with Gore, Berger and Albright traveling the world telling everyone how dangerous Saddam's WMD's were (all the while they were apparently being dismantled) and how Saddam had to be stopped.   But that's utterly immaterial to the current administrations onslaught on Civil Liberties.
and don't forget that the current VP drafted what would become known as the Patriot Act.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/politics/rhetorical-question#

Quote
In the wake of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, Biden did, in fact, champion an anti-terrorism bill similar to the one now before Congress (though it was, as he complains, badly watered down by anti-government conservatives and leftist civil libertarians). And Biden doesn't let you forget it. "I introduced the terrorism bill in '94 that had a lot of these things in it," he bragged to NBC's Tim Russert on September 30. When I spent the day with him later that week, Biden mentioned the legislation to me, and to several other reporters he encountered, no fewer than seven times. "When I was chairman in '94 I introduced a major antiterrorism bill--back then," he says in the morning, flashing a knowing grin and pausing for effect. (Never mind that he's gotten the year wrong.) Back in his office later that afternoon, he brings it up yet again. "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill." You don't say.

 Hey Beems, whacha say?