Author Topic: New To Investing Thread  (Read 330709 times)

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Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #275 on: April 17, 2013, 01:31:53 PM »
I'm sure there are hundreds of applicable links. 

Basic:  if you're holding your index fund, sell on (for this example) 180DMA crossver.  Riskier folks will also short at this time.  Cover on next 180DMA crossover.  Could buy back here, or if worried about getting shaken out then wait for 180DMA to turn positive and then buy.  Simple.

Follow those rules all the way back to before the Great Depression and you'll have like a bazillion more bitcoins than just buying and holding.  Plenty of room to make it waaaay more complicated if you're into that kind of stuff (used to be, not anymore).

Offline steve dave

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #276 on: April 17, 2013, 01:33:22 PM »
invest in Apple when it goes public

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #277 on: April 17, 2013, 01:35:53 PM »
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.

Congrats on getting hammered in 2008/9 then.   :thumbs:

do you understand the concept of long term investing? Do you want to?

I'm just saying, index is for sure the lazy way to do it.  It certainly isn't the only way, nor is it the best way.  Someone who bought one share of S&P 500 "index fund" or whatever and held till today would be up 44%.  Follow some very basic rules and with very little effort (4 trades in 9 years) the same person would be up 102%.   It's still long term, it's still lazy, however it's much more effective.

Earning 7% on index funds every year would put you up about 84% over a 9 year time frame, without as much risk as trying to time the market.

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #278 on: April 17, 2013, 01:44:47 PM »
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.

Congrats on getting hammered in 2008/9 then.   :thumbs:

do you understand the concept of long term investing? Do you want to?

I'm just saying, index is for sure the lazy way to do it.  It certainly isn't the only way, nor is it the best way.  Someone who bought one share of S&P 500 "index fund" or whatever and held till today would be up 44%.  Follow some very basic rules and with very little effort (4 trades in 9 years) the same person would be up 102%.   It's still long term, it's still lazy, however it's much more effective.

Earning 7% on index funds every year would put you up about 84% over a 9 year time frame, without as much risk as trying to time the market.

Okay, do what you want obviously.  But this isn't timing anything.  You're not guessing about bottoms or tops (I mean I guess it could get to that but you don't have to if you don't want to).  You're just validating market trends with simple indicators.  If anything at our age (assume you're not near retirement) we can assume some elevated risk, although I disagree it's riskier.  I personally think it's riskier to hold.  Anyway, all we have to go off of is historical data.  It can't be refuted that buying and holding isn't the best way to do it, although I agree it's the easiest.

Offline sys

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #279 on: April 17, 2013, 06:21:42 PM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #280 on: April 17, 2013, 06:41:50 PM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

I'll admit that I looked into his "system" a little more and it's more promising than I expected. It would definitely be interesting with a lump sum investment. I don't think it would be as simple or easy to manage as he implies, though.

Not sure how it would compare to dollar cost averaging, either.

Offline Pete

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New To Investing Thread
« Reply #281 on: April 17, 2013, 07:03:56 PM »
I don't personally care to do any better than meet the index that fund managers use as their targets.


I do not enjoy investing anymore, I merely do it for security reasons.

I want to not rough ridin' have to think/worry about it.  Ask me about this 15 years ago and you'd get a different answer.

To each his own.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 07:11:13 PM by Pete »

Offline Rams

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Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #282 on: April 17, 2013, 07:28:16 PM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

I'll admit that I looked into his "system" a little more and it's more promising than I expected. It would definitely be interesting with a lump sum investment. I don't think it would be as simple or easy to manage as he implies, though.

Not sure how it would compare to dollar cost averaging, either.
link?  everything I've ever learned has taught me that market timing is a fool's game, but I'm always open to new ideas.
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Offline steve dave

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New To Investing Thread
« Reply #283 on: April 17, 2013, 07:35:40 PM »
Market timing works well in hindsight

Offline Rams

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Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #284 on: April 17, 2013, 07:47:10 PM »
Market timing works well in hindsight
right. that's always been my thought. but if there's something that's consistently worked over the last 60 or so years you can't really just dismiss it. I'm clearly :dubious: but I wouldn't mind looking at the data.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #285 on: April 17, 2013, 07:47:20 PM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.

Offline Rams

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #286 on: April 17, 2013, 07:57:53 PM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.
this is a really good point as well.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #287 on: April 17, 2013, 09:41:43 PM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

I'll admit that I looked into his "system" a little more and it's more promising than I expected. It would definitely be interesting with a lump sum investment. I don't think it would be as simple or easy to manage as he implies, though.

Not sure how it would compare to dollar cost averaging, either.
link?  everything I've ever learned has taught me that market timing is a fool's game, but I'm always open to new ideas.

 http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27460

I haven't really looked at it in much detail. But there are some good points made in this thread.

Offline Rams

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Re: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #288 on: April 17, 2013, 10:37:41 PM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

I'll admit that I looked into his "system" a little more and it's more promising than I expected. It would definitely be interesting with a lump sum investment. I don't think it would be as simple or easy to manage as he implies, though.

Not sure how it would compare to dollar cost averaging, either.
link?  everything I've ever learned has taught me that market timing is a fool's game, but I'm always open to new ideas.

 http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27460

I haven't really looked at it in much detail. But there are some good points made in this thread.
well, it's certainly interesting, but I'm not sold.  it's essentially a great limitation on huge downside risk, but also a great limitation on huge upside reward.  in other words, it seems to be just an expensive (trading costs and taxes) way of being conservative...which is much more efficiently done with a well diversified portfolio.  it really breaks down in extended bull markets (like the one we've been in for a while now).  this article makes some interesting points re the theory of overcrowding in one strategy and also intervention by central banks.

http://www.thereformedbroker.com/2012/12/27/mark-hanna-on-why-the-200-day-signal-is-broken/

the one thing that would be interesting is to see if you could find a way to sort of contra-invest in this strategy by predicting massive inflows and outflows.  really this is the problem with finding "tricks" or "schemes" to outperform an index...once somebody realizes they've found something that works, the speed of information rules it ineffective before you can really take advantage of it.
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Offline kim carnes

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #289 on: April 17, 2013, 10:41:32 PM »
I am a very gifted investor.

Offline sys

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #290 on: April 17, 2013, 10:43:58 PM »
look people, you're smart, you can figure this out.  this is not specific to the method emo proposed which i know absolutely nothing about, just to not blindly indexing (not saying there is anything wrong with indexing.  saying that it is stupid to attack someone for not indexing).

it's just a question of logic.  all of these various systems for timing the market rely on the idea that you can improve your overall return if you are able to predict with some degree of accuracy when the market is more likely to go up or down.  whether the predictive variable is technical, fundamental, macro, seasonal, whatever, it doesn't matter.  they are all derived from past market performance.  that is to say that people come up with each and every one of these systems by looking at the past and pulling out some correlate or group of correlates that is associated with periods in which the market behaves as desired.

here is the important part.  it is absolutely true that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.  and it is possible, even likely, that some of the relationships that people claim to be predictive are spurious.  however, these correlations are all based on the exact same data that all of you indexing acolytes are proclaiming as the path to sure 7% annual returns.  it is absolutely logically inconsistent to profess confidence that future market returns will approximate those of the past while scoffing at correlations among market performance based on the same data.
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Offline ben ji

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #291 on: April 17, 2013, 10:47:39 PM »
Why dont you nerds go start an Advanced Investing Thread and stop making new investors think it is all too complicated and they should just keep buying CD's.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 10:53:08 PM by ben ji »

Offline chum1

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #292 on: April 17, 2013, 10:50:25 PM »
DAY TRADING.  HELLO.

Offline kostakio

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #293 on: April 17, 2013, 11:23:13 PM »
Why dont you nerds go start an Advanced Investing Thread and stop making new investors think it is all too complicated and they should just keep buying CD's.

I tend to agree the market timing/technical trading stuff is probably not a good topic in a thread that is titled "new to investing". You will be better off then 90 % of people if you start contributing to your 401k at a young age and stay the course using low cost index funds.

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #294 on: April 17, 2013, 11:45:15 PM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.

4 rough ridin' trades from 2004 to today.  4. 

Offline sys

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #295 on: April 18, 2013, 01:11:31 AM »
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.

schwab etf's are lower in cost that vanguard funds.  etf's in general are lower than mutual funds.  prolly doesn't matter if you're 401k investing.  i know my 401k has crap for selection, i assume that's standard.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #296 on: April 18, 2013, 01:41:47 AM »
look people, you're smart, you can figure this out.  this is not specific to the method emo proposed which i know absolutely nothing about, just to not blindly indexing (not saying there is anything wrong with indexing.  saying that it is stupid to attack someone for not indexing).

it's just a question of logic.  all of these various systems for timing the market rely on the idea that you can improve your overall return if you are able to predict with some degree of accuracy when the market is more likely to go up or down.  whether the predictive variable is technical, fundamental, macro, seasonal, whatever, it doesn't matter.  they are all derived from past market performance.  that is to say that people come up with each and every one of these systems by looking at the past and pulling out some correlate or group of correlates that is associated with periods in which the market behaves as desired.

here is the important part.  it is absolutely true that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.  and it is possible, even likely, that some of the relationships that people claim to be predictive are spurious.  however, these correlations are all based on the exact same data that all of you indexing acolytes are proclaiming as the path to sure 7% annual returns.  it is absolutely logically inconsistent to profess confidence that future market returns will approximate those of the past while scoffing at correlations among market performance based on the same data.

yeah. A shorter version of this post on bogleheads got me. I mean proponents of lazy investing do so based on past results, but quickly ignore or dismiss the past results of this particular system.

Offline steve dave

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New To Investing Thread
« Reply #297 on: April 18, 2013, 05:59:05 AM »
Why dont you nerds go start an Advanced Investing Thread.

Considering merging a lot of this into the POS stock market thread that turned into that one dumbass touting penny stocks for the last two pages

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #298 on: April 18, 2013, 06:45:32 AM »
look people, you're smart, you can figure this out.  this is not specific to the method emo proposed which i know absolutely nothing about, just to not blindly indexing (not saying there is anything wrong with indexing.  saying that it is stupid to attack someone for not indexing).

it's just a question of logic.  all of these various systems for timing the market rely on the idea that you can improve your overall return if you are able to predict with some degree of accuracy when the market is more likely to go up or down.  whether the predictive variable is technical, fundamental, macro, seasonal, whatever, it doesn't matter.  they are all derived from past market performance.  that is to say that people come up with each and every one of these systems by looking at the past and pulling out some correlate or group of correlates that is associated with periods in which the market behaves as desired.

here is the important part.  it is absolutely true that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.  and it is possible, even likely, that some of the relationships that people claim to be predictive are spurious.  however, these correlations are all based on the exact same data that all of you indexing acolytes are proclaiming as the path to sure 7% annual returns.  it is absolutely logically inconsistent to profess confidence that future market returns will approximate those of the past while scoffing at correlations among market performance based on the same data.

Look, dumbass, there have been several people that made spurious claims "guaranteeing" an annual return.  I never did that bullshit and simply said that making trades in a brokerage account when you have less than $10,000 (which many "new" investors would be starting with) is idiotic.  I listed the reasons.  Look at the thread title.  Your situation seems to be significantly different, you also are a pretty smart guy, but don't resort to making arguments that dismiss points that several of the advocates for a strategy (for people that probably aren't you) didn't make.

Offline kostakio

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Re: New To Investing Thread
« Reply #299 on: April 18, 2013, 07:00:38 AM »
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.

4 rough ridin' trades from 2004 to today.  4.

Can you lay this out a little bit more?  You have me curios now.  I was picturing a much more actively traded system and the little bit I read from the link someone else provided seemed to describe that as well.

If there were just four trades since 2004 can you list them and what triggered them?