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General Discussion => Essentially Flyertalk => Topic started by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 10:41:46 AM

Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 10:41:46 AM
Side shot from the General Advice thread.... See below for ben ji's investing advice.

1. Contribute at least the max that your employer will match to your company 401k....Does not matter how poor you are or how much student debt you have, this is free money.

2. Once you have contributed to enough to get the full match to your company 401k and you still have more money to invest you have some options. You can keep putting more money in the 401k or you can open a Roth IRA.

But ben ji, why put it in a roth ira and not keep it in the 401k?

Well....

1. Roth IRA is after tax money and will not be taxed when you take it in retirement. If you are just starting out you will probably be a lower tax rate now than when you retire.

2. You have more investment options with an IRA. This allows you to find funds with lower expense ratio's and more targeted investing than your 401k Options.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 0.42 on April 16, 2013, 10:42:28 AM
buy low, sell high
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 10:45:40 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 10:47:41 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

General trading account?  Wife and I been maxing the Roth IRA contribution the last few years and now we wish we would have been doing just a general trading account for the purpose of pulling out cash to buy a new house.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 'taterblast on April 16, 2013, 10:48:38 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 10:49:19 AM
I need to invest money in stocks. What's my best route here... Scottrade? I kinda just want someone to take my money and then just tell me when I'm a millionaire. I know nothing about stocks and don't really have the time to pay a whole lot of attention to them.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 10:49:41 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

you are pissing away some good tax breaks broseph
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 10:50:24 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?

depends how much "wealth" you have. normally that would be way too much in cash.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 'taterblast on April 16, 2013, 10:51:16 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?

depends how much "wealth" you have. normally that would be way too much in cash.

yeah it's not that much so i'm probably ok.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 10:51:18 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

you are pissing away some good tax breaks broseph

Depends.  Probably a safe assumption tax rates when we retire will be higher.  Better to pay the income tax up front and not pay it later.  At least that's my way of looking at it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 10:52:15 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

you are pissing away some good tax breaks broseph

Depends.  Probably a safe assumption tax rates when we retire will be higher.  Better to pay the income tax up front and not pay it later.  At least that's my way of looking at it.

it doesn't depend at all. he can either put it in a roth or contribute more than his employers match to his 401k until he hits his personal max. either way it's a tax break over buying stocks (not taking into account potential gain/loss). he would be losing liquidity if that is a factor.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 10:57:55 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

you are pissing away some good tax breaks broseph

Depends.  Probably a safe assumption tax rates when we retire will be higher.  Better to pay the income tax up front and not pay it later.  At least that's my way of looking at it.

it doesn't depend at all. he can either put it in a roth or contribute more than his employers match to his 401k until he hits his personal max. either way it's a tax break over buying stocks with after tax money and getting hit again when he sells them.

Well a Roth is an after tax contribution.  So no tax break there.  You might be thinking of a traditional IRA?

Agree on the 401k, although mine won't let me purchase anything other than the two dozen funds they offer (Prudential).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 10:58:32 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

you are pissing away some good tax breaks broseph

Depends.  Probably a safe assumption tax rates when we retire will be higher.  Better to pay the income tax up front and not pay it later.  At least that's my way of looking at it.

it doesn't depend at all. he can either put it in a roth or contribute more than his employers match to his 401k until he hits his personal max. either way it's a tax break over buying stocks with after tax money and getting hit again when he sells them.

Well a Roth is an after tax contribution.  So no tax break there.  You might be thinking of a traditional IRA?

Agree on the 401k, although mine won't let me purchase anything other than the two dozen funds they offer (Prudential).

I'm not 100% certain you understand how a Roth works (I'm actually 100% certain you don't).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 11:00:01 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

General trading account?  Wife and I been maxing the Roth IRA contribution the last few years and now we wish we would have been doing just a general trading account for the purpose of pulling out cash to buy a new house.

Yeah, I use TD Ameritrade. I basically had the same idea, that it would be nice to be able to just take out money whenever I wanted for major purchases, while I still have my tax-exempt account that I can't touch until I'm 65. I really just do that because I enjoy it, though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:00:20 AM
I need to invest money in stocks. What's my best route here... Scottrade? I kinda just want someone to take my money and then just tell me when I'm a millionaire. I know nothing about stocks and don't really have the time to pay a whole lot of attention to them.

Just get a roth IRA, its very simple. I have mine through fidelity and it took about 10 minutes to set up. No minimum starting amount if you set up direct deposit every month.

If you want something where you just invest it and forget it just buy an index fund.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:01:26 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

General trading account?  Wife and I been maxing the Roth IRA contribution the last few years and now we wish we would have been doing just a general trading account for the purpose of pulling out cash to buy a new house.

You do realize you can pull the principal(not any interest earned) from your roth IRA at anytime.....
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 11:01:47 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

you are pissing away some good tax breaks broseph

Depends.  Probably a safe assumption tax rates when we retire will be higher.  Better to pay the income tax up front and not pay it later.  At least that's my way of looking at it.

it doesn't depend at all. he can either put it in a roth or contribute more than his employers match to his 401k until he hits his personal max. either way it's a tax break over buying stocks with after tax money and getting hit again when he sells them.

Well a Roth is an after tax contribution.  So no tax break there.  You might be thinking of a traditional IRA?

Agree on the 401k, although mine won't let me purchase anything other than the two dozen funds they offer (Prudential).

I'm not 100% certain you understand how a Roth works (I'm actually 100% certain you don't).

I'm saying your contributions are not tax deductible.  So you pay income tax.  However your disbursements are not taxed as income, nor are there capital gains/losses. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 11:02:10 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

General trading account?  Wife and I been maxing the Roth IRA contribution the last few years and now we wish we would have been doing just a general trading account for the purpose of pulling out cash to buy a new house.

You do realize you can pull the principal(not any interest earned) from your roth IRA at anytime.....

No penalty?  Was not aware of that.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 11:02:50 AM
I need to invest money in stocks. What's my best route here... Scottrade? I kinda just want someone to take my money and then just tell me when I'm a millionaire. I know nothing about stocks and don't really have the time to pay a whole lot of attention to them.

Just get a roth IRA, its very simple. I have mine through fidelity and it took about 10 minutes to set up. No minimum starting amount if you set up direct deposit every month.

If you want something where you just invest it and forget it just buy an index fund.

Link me, bro
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 16, 2013, 11:02:53 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

you are pissing away some good tax breaks broseph

Depends.  Probably a safe assumption tax rates when we retire will be higher.  Better to pay the income tax up front and not pay it later.  At least that's my way of looking at it.

it doesn't depend at all. he can either put it in a roth or contribute more than his employers match to his 401k until he hits his personal max. either way it's a tax break over buying stocks with after tax money and getting hit again when he sells them.

Well a Roth is an after tax contribution.  So no tax break there.  You might be thinking of a traditional IRA?

Agree on the 401k, although mine won't let me purchase anything other than the two dozen funds they offer (Prudential).

I'm not 100% certain you understand how a Roth works (I'm actually 100% certain you don't).

This is the new to investing thread, steve. Take it easy and spell it out for people who are new to investing.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:03:01 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

General trading account?  Wife and I been maxing the Roth IRA contribution the last few years and now we wish we would have been doing just a general trading account for the purpose of pulling out cash to buy a new house.

You do realize you can pull the principal(not any interest earned) from your roth IRA at anytime.....

No penalty?  Was not aware of that.

No penalty, you already paid tax on it. You can pull out as much principal as you want at any time.

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 16, 2013, 11:04:18 AM
I need to invest money in stocks. What's my best route here... Scottrade? I kinda just want someone to take my money and then just tell me when I'm a millionaire. I know nothing about stocks and don't really have the time to pay a whole lot of attention to them.

Just get a roth IRA, its very simple. I have mine through fidelity and it took about 10 minutes to set up. No minimum starting amount if you set up direct deposit every month.

If you want something where you just invest it and forget it just buy an index fund.

Link me, bro

www.google.com (http://www.google.com)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 16, 2013, 11:05:26 AM
I need to invest money in stocks. What's my best route here... Scottrade? I kinda just want someone to take my money and then just tell me when I'm a millionaire. I know nothing about stocks and don't really have the time to pay a whole lot of attention to them.

Just get a roth IRA, its very simple. I have mine through fidelity and it took about 10 minutes to set up. No minimum starting amount if you set up direct deposit every month.


Link me, bro

tell me more
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:05:36 AM
I need to invest money in stocks. What's my best route here... Scottrade? I kinda just want someone to take my money and then just tell me when I'm a millionaire. I know nothing about stocks and don't really have the time to pay a whole lot of attention to them.

Just get a roth IRA, its very simple. I have mine through fidelity and it took about 10 minutes to set up. No minimum starting amount if you set up direct deposit every month.

If you want something where you just invest it and forget it just buy an index fund.

Link me, bro

https://www.fidelity.com/open-account/overview

I also have a general trading account seperate from my Roth IRA but it only has $500 in it and I just use it to screw around in.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on April 16, 2013, 11:05:55 AM
invest 10-15% of your salary every year and no more. if you have leftover money, do not invest it but instead immediately spend it on life experience types of things and not things like super nice cars and new couches.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 11:05:56 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?
Depends on how much wealth you have. My available cash is only 4%.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 11:06:21 AM
I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

General trading account?  Wife and I been maxing the Roth IRA contribution the last few years and now we wish we would have been doing just a general trading account for the purpose of pulling out cash to buy a new house.

You do realize you can pull the principal(not any interest earned) from your roth IRA at anytime.....

No penalty?  Was not aware of that.

No penalty, you already paid tax on it. You can pull out as much principal as you want at any time.

While I am  :thumbs: about learning this, it's going to end up costing me more money, so like eff you and your helpfulness!  :shakesfist:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 11:08:58 AM
If you have the option at your place of employment, invest in the Roth 401(k), not the traditional 401(k).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:12:05 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?

Not really, as a general rule you should have around 3 months expenses in a emergency fund. The rest should be in tax advantaged accounts like a 401k or an IRA.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 'taterblast on April 16, 2013, 11:14:02 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?

Not really, as a general rule you should have around 3 months expenses in a emergency fund. The rest should be in tax advantaged accounts like a 401k or an IRA.

i'm good to go then.

i have a 401k, employer match (employer's stock is BITB), all of that..

should i open a Roth IRA too?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 16, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
401k to employer match (in an index or target fund if available) than a Roth ira investing in a vanguard target retirement find.

you get a tax break on the Roth, you just see it when you retire instead of now. combining this with the 401k is hedging your bets on future tax rates. Not real sure what Steve Dave is talking about regarding Roth's.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 16, 2013, 11:15:49 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?

Not really, as a general rule you should have around 3 months expenses in a emergency fund. The rest should be in tax advantaged accounts like a 401k or an IRA.

i'm good to go then.

i have a 401k, employer match (employer's stock is BITB), all of that..

should i open a Roth IRA too?

Yes.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 11:16:42 AM
401k to employer match (in an index or target fund if available) than a Roth ira investing in a vanguard target retirement find.

you get a tax break on the Roth, you just see it when you retire instead of now. combining this with the 401k is hedging your bets on future tax rates. Not real sure what Steve Dave is talking about regarding Roth's.

that is exactly what I was talking about re. Roths
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:18:15 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?

Not really, as a general rule you should have around 3 months expenses in a emergency fund. The rest should be in tax advantaged accounts like a 401k or an IRA.

i'm good to go then.

i have a 401k, employer match (employer's stock is BITB), all of that..

should i open a Roth IRA too?

Dont invest more than 5/10% of your 401k in your company stock, way to much risk.

If your company has great 401k investment options then sure keep it in the 401k but most companies 401k providers have between 10-15 funds for everyone and their expense ratios tend to be higher than what you can get through an IRA.

The difference in expense ratio's of .9 and 1.3 can add up to alot of money by the time you retire. 

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:19:22 AM
of all the "wealth" i have to my name currently, a little less than 20% of it is actual cash that i could spend right now.

is this bad?

Not really, as a general rule you should have around 3 months expenses in a emergency fund. The rest should be in tax advantaged accounts like a 401k or an IRA.

i'm good to go then.

i have a 401k, employer match (employer's stock is BITB), all of that..

should i open a Roth IRA too?

Dont invest more than 5/10% of your 401k in your company stock, way to much risk.

If your company has great 401k investment options then sure keep it in the 401k but most companies 401k providers have between 10-15 funds for everyone and their expense ratios tend to be higher than what you can get through an IRA.

The difference in expense ratio's of .9 and 1.3 can add up to alot of money by the time you retire.

Not to mention the whole not taxed on retirement advantage as well.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 11:20:40 AM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 16, 2013, 11:21:05 AM
Diversification
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 11:22:50 AM
I do not care who you work for, do not be over invest in that company's stock. If they have an ESPP (employee stock purchase plan) where you can buy stock at a discount, do it, but then seel the stock when you can if the overall amount in your ESPP is out of balance with the rest of your investments. Additionally, do not own large amounts of company stock in your 401(k).

The reason for the above is diversity. You are already relying on your job and your company 100% for your income, do not rely on your company's performance for your retirement.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 0.42 on April 16, 2013, 11:23:01 AM
charge what the market will bear
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:23:16 AM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CNS on April 16, 2013, 11:23:29 AM
I do not care who you work for, do not be over invested in that company's stock. If they have an ESPP (employee stock purchase plan) where you can buy stock at a discount, do it, but then seel the stock when you can if the overall amount in your ESPP is out of balance with the rest of your investments. Additionally, do not own large amounts of company stock in your 401(k).

The reason for the above is diversity. You are already relying on your job and your company 100% for your income, do not rely on your company's performance for your retirement.

See Enron.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 16, 2013, 11:23:54 AM
Buy and sell options
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 11:24:13 AM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: treysolid on April 16, 2013, 11:24:21 AM
well, before you start investing for retirement, you should put together your emergency fund. whatever you could live on for 6 months if you were to lose your job should just be sitting in a money-market account, ready to use whenever crap goes sideways.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 11:24:57 AM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

you can borrow from most retirement accounts for stuff like this.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 0.42 on April 16, 2013, 11:25:45 AM
use the laffer curve
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:25:55 AM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.

You are confusing a 401k and a roth IRA...there is some way to pull money out of a 401k for your first home but I dont know much about that.

With a roth IRA you can pull out your principal at any time with no penalty because you have already paid taxes on this money.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 11:27:32 AM
well, before you start investing for retirement, you should put together your emergency fund. whatever you could live on for 6 months if you were to lose your job should just be sitting in a money-market account, ready to use whenever crap goes sideways.

This varies per person and situation. At 24, no spouse, no kids, I wouldn't worry so much about 6 months. Start out with a couple of months and then start investing, but continue to add a little more to your emergency fund until you get to three months or more if you want to.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 11:30:34 AM
If you have the option at your place of employment, invest in the Roth 401(k), not the traditional 401(k).
Hey elites, the people that are new to investing will not take my advice unless one of you agrees to it. This is a simple and easy step, but I know a lot of people freak out when they see "Roth 410(k)" and just select the traditional. Could one of you elites please agree with this statement so all of the young college grads will not make the mistake of passing on their new employer's Roth 401(k).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:33:49 AM
If you have the option at your place of employment, invest in the Roth 401(k), not the traditional 401(k).
Hey elites, the people that are new to investing will not take my advice unless one of you agrees to it. This is a simple and easy step, but I know a lot of people freak out when they see "Roth 410(k)" and just select the traditional. Could one of you elites please agree with this statement so all of the young college grads will not make the mistake of passing on their new employer's Roth 401(k).

most places dont have roth 401k's and I dont know much about them.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slucat on April 16, 2013, 11:34:38 AM
Good tips, I second getting a Roth IRA
For online trading I use sharebuider from capitol one 360 (formerly ING Direct), cheap trades with some decent research tools. If you have an online savings account through them, money is moved instantly.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: scottwildcat on April 16, 2013, 11:36:32 AM
hmm are benji and Scott Hendrix the same person  :sdeek:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 'taterblast on April 16, 2013, 11:37:22 AM
just opened a Roth. minimal contributions to start out with, but still. thanks guys.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 16, 2013, 11:37:41 AM
401k to employer match (in an index or target fund if available) than a Roth ira investing in a vanguard target retirement find.

you get a tax break on the Roth, you just see it when you retire instead of now. combining this with the 401k is hedging your bets on future tax rates. Not real sure what Steve Dave is talking about regarding Roth's.

that is exactly what I was talking about re. Roths


yeah. I was walking/tapatalking and misread.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 11:38:08 AM
If you have the option at your place of employment, invest in the Roth 401(k), not the traditional 401(k).
Hey elites, the people that are new to investing will not take my advice unless one of you agrees to it. This is a simple and easy step, but I know a lot of people freak out when they see "Roth 410(k)" and just select the traditional. Could one of you elites please agree with this statement so all of the young college grads will not make the mistake of passing on their new employer's Roth 401(k).


most places dont have roth 401k's and I dont know much about them.
They are just like IRA vs. Roth IRA. In the Roth 401(k), your money is taxed prior to being invested. Comes out tax free. The bet in either scenario is that if you are in a higher tax bracket when you retire, you come out ahead. If you are 25 and you think you are in a higher tax bracket now than what you will be in when you retire, then you are not being ambitious enough.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:39:43 AM
hmm are benji and Scott Hendrix the same person  :sdeek:

FIII-nance
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: puniraptor on April 16, 2013, 11:41:29 AM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: TheHamburglar on April 16, 2013, 11:42:22 AM
hmm are benji and Scott Hendrix the same person  :sdeek:

Is BenJi the Fitz of the college of business?  I hope not.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 11:44:03 AM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

you can only contribute $5,500 a year
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 11:44:36 AM
just opened a Roth. minimal contributions to start out with, but still. thanks guys.

'blast I just opened a Roth IRA too!  :excited:

Also, I just found out we're gonna be playing softball together this summer  :excited:  :excited:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 'taterblast on April 16, 2013, 11:45:56 AM
 :dance:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:46:52 AM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

you can only contribute $5,500 a year

And if you are constantly pulling out the principal it really defeats the purpose of using it as a retirement account.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 11:48:19 AM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

I really don't understand why anybody would have a savings account.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 11:49:47 AM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

I really don't understand why anybody would have a savings account.

I dont think you understand investing
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 11:52:37 AM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

I really don't understand why anybody would have a savings account.

I dont think you understand investing

Savings accounts pay less than 1% interest. Why would you put your money into a savings account when you could just make extra contributions to your 401k, pay extra on the mortgage, buy stocks, etc? Really just about anything you do with your money will be better than just letting it sit in a savings account.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 12:05:30 PM
Alright, next step, you guys...

Have a 401K brewing with the maximum match and just opened a Roth IRA. What else? Wouldn't mind playing the market a little bit at a time. What's the best way to do that? Does goEMAW.com have stock? I know a good investment when I see one.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 12:13:49 PM
KKK and others, don't try to time the market. Invest long term.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Stupid Fitz on April 16, 2013, 12:17:24 PM
401k to employer match (in an index or target fund if available) than a Roth ira investing in a vanguard target retirement find.

you get a tax break on the Roth, you just see it when you retire instead of now. combining this with the 401k is hedging your bets on future tax rates. Not real sure what Steve Dave is talking about regarding Roth's.

that is exactly what I was talking about re. Roths

Do this or buy bit coin and solar stocks.  Whichever is good. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 12:17:31 PM
RE: pulling from retirement account for a house

I generally agree that it's a bad idea, but with interest rates as low as they are, I'm starting to see the house as a real form of investment (savings account).  I'd rather pull money from a Roth now to buy a house that I could live in until the kids are gone (20 years), as opposed to skimping now and then having to upgrade later (at a higher interest rate).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Stupid Fitz on April 16, 2013, 12:21:12 PM
RE: pulling from retirement account for a house

I generally agree that it's a bad idea, but with interest rates as low as they are, I'm starting to see the house as a real form of investment (savings account).  I'd rather pull money from a Roth now to buy a house that I could live in until the kids are gone (20 years), as opposed to skimping now and then having to upgrade later (at a higher interest rate).

Unless you have 9 dollars in your retirement account this is a terrible idea
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 12:23:36 PM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

I really don't understand why anybody would have a savings account.

I dont think you understand investing

Savings accounts pay less than 1% interest. Why would you put your money into a savings account when you could just make extra contributions to your 401k, pay extra on the mortgage, buy stocks, etc? Really just about anything you do with your money will be better than just letting it sit in a savings account.

Saving Accounts are liquid...If your car/ac/heater breaks down or you lose your job etc etc etc you dont want to have to make withdrawls from your 401k or sell stocks at a loss to cover your expenses.

You should not use your roth IRA like a saving account because you are not taking full advantage of compounding interest when you keep withdrawing your principal. You can only contribute 5500 a year to it and if you pull out 3k every year for some emergency you can never put that 3k back in, you will still only be able to contribute 5500.

Also dont pay extra on your mortgage unless your are paying PMI...If your mortgage rate is 4% and the market returns an average of 7% you are losing money.There is some psychological advantage but no financial advantage.


Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
RE: pulling from retirement account for a house

I generally agree that it's a bad idea, but with interest rates as low as they are, I'm starting to see the house as a real form of investment (savings account).  I'd rather pull money from a Roth now to buy a house that I could live in until the kids are gone (20 years), as opposed to skimping now and then having to upgrade later (at a higher interest rate).

Unless you have 9 dollars in your retirement account this is a terrible idea

Well let's say I pull $10k from it on the basis it will put me in a house I'd want to live in for 20 years, the other side being that if I didn't I'd want to move again in 5 years.  I think that's worth it.  :dunno:   We can make up that $10k pretty quickly.

I guess the alternative would be to get a second mortgage, which I dunno seems like a bad idea. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 12:31:01 PM
Alright, next step, you guys...

Have a 401K brewing with the maximum match and just opened a Roth IRA. What else? Wouldn't mind playing the market a little bit at a time. What's the best way to do that? Does goEMAW.com have stock? I know a good investment when I see one.

As a general rule you should max out your tax benefit accounts(401k, roth ira) before you do any investing that has no tax benefits.

Like I said earlier I have a couple hundred I use to screw around in the market with but thats just for fun. When you have to pay 7 bucks for each trade and you only have a couple hundred buck that $7 can add up to a pretty good percent of your profit.

We had an investing thread earlier where SD said something I thought was really smart, it was something to the effect of "Invest in companies that are in your industry/a field you are familiar with" AKA if your company has a vendor and they have their crap together and are a pleasure to work with you might look to invest in that company.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 12:31:15 PM
RE: pulling from retirement account for a house

I generally agree that it's a bad idea, but with interest rates as low as they are, I'm starting to see the house as a real form of investment (savings account).  I'd rather pull money from a Roth now to buy a house that I could live in until the kids are gone (20 years), as opposed to skimping now and then having to upgrade later (at a higher interest rate).

Unless you have 9 dollars in your retirement account this is a terrible idea

Well let's say I pull $10k from it on the basis it will put me in a house I'd want to live in for 20 years, the other side being that if I didn't I'd want to move again in 5 years.  I think that's worth it.  :dunno:   We can make up that $10k pretty quickly.

I guess the alternative would be to get a second mortgage, which I dunno seems like a bad idea.

If you already own a home, pulling out $10k for a payment on a new home is an even worse idea. Just get a second mortgage, and you will be paying a much lower rate on that than the $10k in your 401k will be earning.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 12:34:50 PM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

I really don't understand why anybody would have a savings account.

I dont think you understand investing

Savings accounts pay less than 1% interest. Why would you put your money into a savings account when you could just make extra contributions to your 401k, pay extra on the mortgage, buy stocks, etc? Really just about anything you do with your money will be better than just letting it sit in a savings account.

Saving Accounts are liquid...If your car/ac/heater breaks down or you lose your job etc etc etc you dont want to have to make withdrawls from your 401k or sell stocks at a loss to cover your expenses.

You should not use your roth IRA like a saving account because you are not taking full advantage of compounding interest when you keep withdrawing your principal. You can only contribute 5500 a year to it and if you pull out 3k every year for some emergency you can never put that 3k back in, you will still only be able to contribute 5500.

Also dont pay extra on your mortgage unless your are paying PMI...If your mortgage rate is 4% and the market returns an average of 7% you are losing money.There is some psychological advantage but no financial advantage.

Checking accounts are also liquid.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 12:35:46 PM
RE: pulling from retirement account for a house

I generally agree that it's a bad idea, but with interest rates as low as they are, I'm starting to see the house as a real form of investment (savings account).  I'd rather pull money from a Roth now to buy a house that I could live in until the kids are gone (20 years), as opposed to skimping now and then having to upgrade later (at a higher interest rate).

Unless you have 9 dollars in your retirement account this is a terrible idea

Well let's say I pull $10k from it on the basis it will put me in a house I'd want to live in for 20 years, the other side being that if I didn't I'd want to move again in 5 years.  I think that's worth it.  :dunno:   We can make up that $10k pretty quickly.

I guess the alternative would be to get a second mortgage, which I dunno seems like a bad idea.

If you already own a home, pulling out $10k for a payment on a new home is an even worse idea. Just get a second mortgage, and you will be paying a much lower rate on that than the $10k in your 401k will be earning.

It's a Roth, but whatevs.  Don't really see how the current home comes into play. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 12:43:41 PM
RE: pulling from retirement account for a house

I generally agree that it's a bad idea, but with interest rates as low as they are, I'm starting to see the house as a real form of investment (savings account).  I'd rather pull money from a Roth now to buy a house that I could live in until the kids are gone (20 years), as opposed to skimping now and then having to upgrade later (at a higher interest rate).

Unless you have 9 dollars in your retirement account this is a terrible idea

Well let's say I pull $10k from it on the basis it will put me in a house I'd want to live in for 20 years, the other side being that if I didn't I'd want to move again in 5 years.  I think that's worth it.  :dunno:   We can make up that $10k pretty quickly.

I guess the alternative would be to get a second mortgage, which I dunno seems like a bad idea.

If you already own a home, pulling out $10k for a payment on a new home is an even worse idea. Just get a second mortgage, and you will be paying a much lower rate on that than the $10k in your 401k will be earning.

It's a Roth, but whatevs.  Don't really see how the current home comes into play.

It only comes into play because you have an asset that you can sell and use as a down payment for your new home. You don't need additional cash, and interest rates are less than 4%, so there really isn't much incentive to put extra down. It looks like you are losing your ass on mortgage interest every month, but you need to be building a base on your retirement account so that by the time you retire, your account will be earning more interest than you are currently paying on your mortgage. In the long run, the Roth IRA should completely demolish any short term gains you achieve by paying extra up front on the house.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Brock Landers on April 16, 2013, 12:44:16 PM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.

You are confusing a 401k and a roth IRA...there is some way to pull money out of a 401k for your first home but I dont know much about that.

With a roth IRA you can pull out your principal at any time with no penalty because you have already paid taxes on this money.


Withdrawal from 401k for first home purchase is considered to be a "hardship" condition.  You're still taxed, penalized, and can't contribute for 6 months.  Forget it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 16, 2013, 12:45:24 PM
Haven't read a single post in this thread.  Index funds.  Enjoy your retirement!  go cats
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 12:54:16 PM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.

You are confusing a 401k and a roth IRA...there is some way to pull money out of a 401k for your first home but I dont know much about that.

With a roth IRA you can pull out your principal at any time with no penalty because you have already paid taxes on this money.


Withdrawal from 401k for first home purchase is considered to be a "hardship" condition.  You're still taxed, penalized, and can't contribute for 6 months.  Forget it.

you can take a loan from your 401k without any of that. but, with mortage rates at essentially zero I don't know why you would.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 01:02:19 PM
Seems hard to invest a ton of money in retirement from my seat at age 20-something. I have very few monthly expenses... pretty much just student loans and rent, but I feel like watching all that money pile up in my checking account is a bad idea. Guys, what if I have to buy a wedding ring or something in 2 years? Should I be paying my student loans off at a higher rate? Seems silly, they are ridiculously high as is. Oh that leads me to another question... wtf is consolidating student loans? Should I do that? Will it lower my payments? GUYS!!!!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: puniraptor on April 16, 2013, 01:03:59 PM
Seems hard to invest a ton of money in retirement from my seat at age 20-something. I have very few monthly expenses... pretty much just student loans and rent, but I feel like watching all that money pile up in my checking account is a bad idea. Guys, what if I have to buy a wedding ring or something in 2 years? Should I be paying my student loans off at a higher rate? Seems silly, they are ridiculously high as is. Oh that leads me to another question... wtf is consolidating student loans? Should I do that? Will it lower my payments? GUYS!!!!

not federal loans. if you have multiple private loans, you can consolidate them and save money.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 16, 2013, 01:05:58 PM
I'm not really worried about my student loans. Low interest, low monthly payment, long time to pay it off.
I am paying way over my monthly payment on my car loan since that is a rapidly depreciating asset.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 01:11:09 PM
Also dont pay extra on your mortgage unless your are paying PMI...If your mortgage rate is 4% and the market returns an average of 7% you are losing money.There is some psychological advantage but no financial advantage.

I generally agree with this, but there is some financial advantage in paying extra on your mortgage if you don't plan on living at your current house for an extended period of time. When rates go back up, you will have to get a new mortgage at the higher rate when you move and having a larger amount of the value of your current home paid off will reduce the amount you have to borrow at the higher rate. There are better investments out there, but paying extra on the mortgage is better than letting your money sit in a savings or checking account.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 01:14:40 PM
Seems hard to invest a ton of money in retirement from my seat at age 20-something. I have very few monthly expenses... pretty much just student loans and rent, but I feel like watching all that money pile up in my checking account is a bad idea. Guys, what if I have to buy a wedding ring or something in 2 years? Should I be paying my student loans off at a higher rate? Seems silly, they are ridiculously high as is. Oh that leads me to another question... wtf is consolidating student loans? Should I do that? Will it lower my payments? GUYS!!!!

Pay off anything greater than 7% interest(Student loans, CC, etc) before you start plowing all your money into retirement savings.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Stupid Fitz on April 16, 2013, 01:15:40 PM
Haven't read a single post in this thread.  Index funds.  Enjoy your retirement!  go cats

Makes me laugh when people make it more complicated than this.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Big Train on April 16, 2013, 01:39:37 PM
I always invest about $10 in lottery tickets when the jackpot gets in the 100's of millions, seems like a pretty good investment.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 01:41:18 PM
I always invest about $10 in lottery tickets when the jackpot gets in the 100's of millions, seems like a pretty good investment.
Very sound advice. Anyone that buys lottery tickets when it is only at $30 or $40 million is a fool. :cheers:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 01:51:46 PM
I think it's gotta be over $450M for it to make mathematical sense. 
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 8manpick on April 16, 2013, 01:58:53 PM
I think it's gotta be over $450M for it to make mathematical sense.
There is a point where the expected rate of return becomes higher than the cost of a ticket. There was some study, maybe posted on here, about that a couple years ago. That was when it was only $1 a ticket though and your number was about right.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: bubbles4ksu on April 16, 2013, 02:04:16 PM
I think it's gotta be over $450M for it to make mathematical sense.
There is a point where the expected rate of return becomes higher than the cost of a ticket. There was some study, maybe posted on here, about that a couple years ago. That was when it was only $1 a ticket though and your number was about right.

it's a different number for every lottery game, of course. an australian investment firm once bought something like 5 million of 7 million possible numbers for the virginia state lottery because the odds were great. they won and pocketed a few million.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: lopakman on April 16, 2013, 02:07:46 PM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

I really don't understand why anybody would have a savings account.

I dont think you understand investing

Savings accounts pay less than 1% interest. Why would you put your money into a savings account when you could just make extra contributions to your 401k, pay extra on the mortgage, buy stocks, etc? Really just about anything you do with your money will be better than just letting it sit in a savings account.

Let me ask you this, what will you do if you lose your job?  That's why you have savings.  You don't have to put it in a "savings account"  There are short term CD's, money markets that pay more than 1%
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 02:08:30 PM
if you put money in a cd I'll punch you in the face
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 02:11:08 PM
you can take principal out of the roth whenever you want? how have they not put savings accounts right out of business?

I really don't understand why anybody would have a savings account.

I dont think you understand investing

Savings accounts pay less than 1% interest. Why would you put your money into a savings account when you could just make extra contributions to your 401k, pay extra on the mortgage, buy stocks, etc? Really just about anything you do with your money will be better than just letting it sit in a savings account.

Let me ask you this, what will you do if you lose your job?  That's why you have savings.  You don't have to put it in a "savings account"  There are short term CD's, money markets that pay more than 1%

I keep extra money in my checking account, which earns more than 2% interest. Also, if I lose my job, I just find a new one. It's not that hard.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: lopakman on April 16, 2013, 02:17:18 PM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.

You are confusing a 401k and a roth IRA...there is some way to pull money out of a 401k for your first home but I dont know much about that.

With a roth IRA you can pull out your principal at any time with no penalty because you have already paid taxes on this money.


Withdrawal from 401k for first home purchase is considered to be a "hardship" condition.  You're still taxed, penalized, and can't contribute for 6 months.  Forget it.

you can take a loan from your 401k without any of that. but, with mortage rates at essentially zero I don't know why you would.

No you can't.  If you take money from your 401k you are penalized.  You can roll your 401k over to an IRA to avoid the penalties but you'd be paying a higher interest rate.  Mortgage rates are not near zero, they're slightly below 4% for those with excellent credit who would never need to do this in the first place.  If you need to borrow against your 401k for a house then do it but it's going to cost you more in the long run.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: lopakman on April 16, 2013, 02:20:47 PM
if you put money in a cd I'll punch you in the face

I've been laddering 40k in CD's for 10 years.  It's our six months living expenses.  I don't see the problem with this. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 02:21:45 PM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.

You are confusing a 401k and a roth IRA...there is some way to pull money out of a 401k for your first home but I dont know much about that.

With a roth IRA you can pull out your principal at any time with no penalty because you have already paid taxes on this money.


Withdrawal from 401k for first home purchase is considered to be a "hardship" condition.  You're still taxed, penalized, and can't contribute for 6 months.  Forget it.

you can take a loan from your 401k without any of that. but, with mortage rates at essentially zero I don't know why you would.

No you can't.  If you take money from your 401k you are penalized.  You can roll your 401k over to an IRA to avoid the penalties but you'd be paying a higher interest rate.  Mortgage rates are not near zero, they're slightly below 4% for those with excellent credit who would never need to do this in the first place.  If you need to borrow against your 401k for a house then do it but it's going to cost you more in the long run.

you are wrong, dumbass.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/02/401k-loan-borrowing-pf-education-in_rw_0902investopedia_inl.html
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 16, 2013, 02:22:40 PM
if you put money in a cd I'll punch you in the face

SD tell me if this is an accurate description of a typical CD:

I could put $2000 into a 2-year 1.8% CD right now and walk away after 2 years of not touching that money with a cool $2036  :gocho:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 02:23:17 PM
if you put money in a cd I'll punch you in the face

I've been laddering 40k in CD's for 10 years.  It's our six months living expenses.  I don't see the problem with this.

not surprised by this at all
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 02:24:20 PM
if you put money in a cd I'll punch you in the face

SD tell me if this is an accurate description of a typical CD:

I could put $2000 into a 2-year 1.8% CD right now and walk away after 2 years of not touching that money with a cool $2036  :gocho:

You would earn more than $36. It would be closer to $100.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 02:29:18 PM
if you put money in a cd I'll punch you in the face

SD tell me if this is an accurate description of a typical CD:

I could put $2000 into a 2-year 1.8% CD right now and walk away after 2 years of not touching that money with a cool $2036  :gocho:

You would earn more than $36. It would be closer to $100.

about $70. let's not send mocat out to put down a payment on a lambo just yet.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 16, 2013, 02:30:59 PM
if you put money in a cd I'll punch you in the face

SD tell me if this is an accurate description of a typical CD:

I could put $2000 into a 2-year 1.8% CD right now and walk away after 2 years of not touching that money with a cool $2036  :gocho:

You would earn more than $36. It would be closer to $100.

about $70. let's not send mocat out to put down a payment on a lambo just yet.

CDs seem like a legal and socially accepted form of Nigerian Prince'ing people  :confused:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 02:32:30 PM
if you put money in a cd I'll punch you in the face

SD tell me if this is an accurate description of a typical CD:

I could put $2000 into a 2-year 1.8% CD right now and walk away after 2 years of not touching that money with a cool $2036  :gocho:

You would earn more than $36. It would be closer to $100.

about $70. let's not send mocat out to put down a payment on a lambo just yet.

CDs seem like a legal and socially accepted form of Nigerian Prince'ing people  :confused:

If you are already like 70 years old, and have enough money to reasonably live on until you die, they aren't a horrible idea because there is no risk of taking a loss like there is with a good investment.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: lopakman on April 16, 2013, 02:34:00 PM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.

You are confusing a 401k and a roth IRA...there is some way to pull money out of a 401k for your first home but I dont know much about that.

With a roth IRA you can pull out your principal at any time with no penalty because you have already paid taxes on this money.


Withdrawal from 401k for first home purchase is considered to be a "hardship" condition.  You're still taxed, penalized, and can't contribute for 6 months.  Forget it.

you can take a loan from your 401k without any of that. but, with mortage rates at essentially zero I don't know why you would.

No you can't.  If you take money from your 401k you are penalized.  You can roll your 401k over to an IRA to avoid the penalties but you'd be paying a higher interest rate.  Mortgage rates are not near zero, they're slightly below 4% for those with excellent credit who would never need to do this in the first place.  If you need to borrow against your 401k for a house then do it but it's going to cost you more in the long run.

you are wrong, dumbass.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/02/401k-loan-borrowing-pf-education-in_rw_0902investopedia_inl.html

Guess there's two sides to every story huh?

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/eightreasons401k.asp (http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/eightreasons401k.asp)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 16, 2013, 02:34:08 PM
Also dont pay extra on your mortgage unless your are paying PMI...If your mortgage rate is 4% and the market returns an average of 7% you are losing money.There is some psychological advantage but no financial advantage.

I generally agree with this, but there is some financial advantage in paying extra on your mortgage if you don't plan on living at your current house for an extended period of time. When rates go back up, you will have to get a new mortgage at the higher rate when you move and having a larger amount of the value of your current home paid off will reduce the amount you have to borrow at the higher rate. There are better investments out there, but paying extra on the mortgage is better than letting your money sit in a savings or checking account.

Paying a mortgage off early is maybe slightly better then letting it sit in a savings or checking account. However, I don't follow your logic on the having to borrow less if you move part.  Sure you'll have more equity in your current house but even after you sell it you will not have more liquid worth to put towards the purchase of a new house unless of course you took that extra money and lost it.

I don't recomend paying off your house early under almost any circumstance.  For one you want to stay liquid as much as possible and homes are not liquid.  Two you want to diversify and invest in things other then real estate.  You already own the home and will bear 100% of the value fluctuations.  No reason top tie up any more capital in it then required to avoid PMI.  Even with money sitting in savings you have to take into account interest will likely go up at some point and could easily eclipse the 3% and change mortage rate you can get right now.  I'm not advocating letting the money sit in savings but if the choice were to sit in savings or pay the mortage early I'd probably choose savings right now.   
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 16, 2013, 02:37:16 PM
I'd take the advice of Jim Cramer over Steve Dave on these sort of things guys
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: lopakman on April 16, 2013, 02:38:32 PM
Also dont pay extra on your mortgage unless your are paying PMI...If your mortgage rate is 4% and the market returns an average of 7% you are losing money.There is some psychological advantage but no financial advantage.

I generally agree with this, but there is some financial advantage in paying extra on your mortgage if you don't plan on living at your current house for an extended period of time. When rates go back up, you will have to get a new mortgage at the higher rate when you move and having a larger amount of the value of your current home paid off will reduce the amount you have to borrow at the higher rate. There are better investments out there, but paying extra on the mortgage is better than letting your money sit in a savings or checking account.

Paying a mortgage off early is maybe slightly better then letting it sit in a savings or checking account. However, I don't follow your logic on the having to borrow less if you move part.  Sure you'll have more equity in your current house but even after you sell it you will not have more liquid worth to put towards the purchase of a new house unless of course you took that extra money and lost it.

I don't recomend paying off your house early under almost any circumstance.  For one you want to stay liquid as much as possible and homes are not liquid.  Two you want to diversify and invest in things other then real estate.  You already own the home and will bear 100% of the value fluctuations.  No reason top tie up any more capital in it then required to avoid PMI.  Even with money sitting in savings you have to take into account interest will likely go up at some point and could easily eclipse the 3% and change mortage rate you can get right now.  I'm not advocating letting the money sit in savings but if the choice were to sit in savings or pay the mortage early I'd probably choose savings right now.

If you want to pay extra on mortgage make on extra payment a year and that will knock off 5-7 years of your loan depending on interest rate.  If you have enough money in savings to pay off your mortgate then probably Steve Dave and I could both agree you have too much cash on hand. 

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 02:38:39 PM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.

You are confusing a 401k and a roth IRA...there is some way to pull money out of a 401k for your first home but I dont know much about that.

With a roth IRA you can pull out your principal at any time with no penalty because you have already paid taxes on this money.


Withdrawal from 401k for first home purchase is considered to be a "hardship" condition.  You're still taxed, penalized, and can't contribute for 6 months.  Forget it.

you can take a loan from your 401k without any of that. but, with mortage rates at essentially zero I don't know why you would.

No you can't.  If you take money from your 401k you are penalized.  You can roll your 401k over to an IRA to avoid the penalties but you'd be paying a higher interest rate.  Mortgage rates are not near zero, they're slightly below 4% for those with excellent credit who would never need to do this in the first place.  If you need to borrow against your 401k for a house then do it but it's going to cost you more in the long run.

you are wrong, dumbass.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/02/401k-loan-borrowing-pf-education-in_rw_0902investopedia_inl.html

Guess there's two sides to every story huh?

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/eightreasons401k.asp (http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/eightreasons401k.asp)

lol, an article about why it's stupid to do it is not a refutation of the ability to do it  :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 02:42:33 PM
Hey lopakman, take a lap and let the big boys hand out the good advice.

I dont want KSC or any other youngsters coming in here and accidentally taking your advice
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 02:44:24 PM
Hey lopakman, take a lap and let the big boys hand out the good advice.

I dont want KSC or any other youngsters coming in here and accidentally taking your advice

Someone just take all my moneys and make like 2-3% every year except for the moneys I need to buy stuff and live on. Is that too much to ask for? Also when I retire at age 65 or whatever make sure I'm not a poor.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 02:45:43 PM
Hey lopakman, take a lap and let the big boys hand out the good advice.

I dont want KSC or any other youngsters coming in here and accidentally taking your advice

Someone just take all my moneys and make like 2-3% every year except for the moneys I need to buy stuff and live on. Is that too much to ask for? Also when I retire at age 65 or whatever make sure I'm not a poor.

Just buy an index fund and you will make 7% every year.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 02:50:01 PM
Hey lopakman, take a lap and let the big boys hand out the good advice.

I dont want KSC or any other youngsters coming in here and accidentally taking your advice

Someone just take all my moneys and make like 2-3% every year except for the moneys I need to buy stuff and live on. Is that too much to ask for? Also when I retire at age 65 or whatever make sure I'm not a poor.

Just buy an index fund and you will make 7% every year over the long run.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: lopakman on April 16, 2013, 02:52:01 PM
Can't you pull from your Roth IRA for your first house or something of that nature?

You never want to pull any money out of your retirement fund, bad habit....but yes.

Say your have a Roth IRA and you have 20k in it. 15k of that is principal that you put in....You could pull out all 15k if you wanted and use that to pay for a house or any other emergency that may pop up.

Well I thought it was no penalty. I understand that you can always pull it out but you get taxed like crazy. Just thought there was an exception for your first home.

You are confusing a 401k and a roth IRA...there is some way to pull money out of a 401k for your first home but I dont know much about that.

With a roth IRA you can pull out your principal at any time with no penalty because you have already paid taxes on this money.


Withdrawal from 401k for first home purchase is considered to be a "hardship" condition.  You're still taxed, penalized, and can't contribute for 6 months.  Forget it.

you can take a loan from your 401k without any of that. but, with mortage rates at essentially zero I don't know why you would.

No you can't.  If you take money from your 401k you are penalized.  You can roll your 401k over to an IRA to avoid the penalties but you'd be paying a higher interest rate.  Mortgage rates are not near zero, they're slightly below 4% for those with excellent credit who would never need to do this in the first place.  If you need to borrow against your 401k for a house then do it but it's going to cost you more in the long run.

you are wrong, dumbass.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/02/401k-loan-borrowing-pf-education-in_rw_0902investopedia_inl.html

Guess there's two sides to every story huh?

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/eightreasons401k.asp (http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/eightreasons401k.asp)

lol, an article about why it's stupid to do it is not a refutation of the ability to do it  :lol:

I didn't say you couldn't do it, I said you shouldn't do it.  We obviously have different investing strategies.  I'm 37 and have two kids, I choose not to be as aggressive as I was when I graduated fifteen years ago.  What I'm doing is working out well for me and my family.  Our house will be paid off by the time my 5 year old goes to college and our 529 IRA will cover all college expenses for both of our kids.  By the time my two year old graduates from college we'll be retired.  That's my definition of success. 

I hope you get everything you want out of your investment strategy and I consider this matter closed.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 02:53:53 PM
Hey lopakman, take a lap and let the big boys hand out the good advice.

I dont want KSC or any other youngsters coming in here and accidentally taking your advice

Someone just take all my moneys and make like 2-3% every year except for the moneys I need to buy stuff and live on. Is that too much to ask for? Also when I retire at age 65 or whatever make sure I'm not a poor.

Just buy an index fund and you will make 7% every year.

Link? I know absolutely nothing about index funds.

Also I want KSU Cats season tickets for football. Pretty simple budget here, folks. Who wants to be my personal finance manager?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 16, 2013, 02:55:25 PM
It's almost like KSC and I are the same person here dames and gents
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 02:58:49 PM
It's almost like KSC and I are the same person here dames and gents

wanna just combine our money so we would only need 1 personal finance manager?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: lopakman on April 16, 2013, 02:58:57 PM
Hey lopakman, take a lap and let the big boys hand out the good advice.

I dont want KSC or any other youngsters coming in here and accidentally taking your advice

Someone just take all my moneys and make like 2-3% every year except for the moneys I need to buy stuff and live on. Is that too much to ask for? Also when I retire at age 65 or whatever make sure I'm not a poor.

Just buy an index fund and you will make 7% every year.

You mean you could achieve an average return of 7% every year BASED on Histoical Annual Returns data.  Cause if you're saying you'll make 7% every year that would just be ridiculous.   May want to rephrase before sharing your "big boy" advice.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 16, 2013, 03:03:21 PM
OH crap! Butthurt is starting to come out. Don't get offended when someone says your ideas are stupid (maybe your ideas are stupid?).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 03:10:22 PM
I didn't say you couldn't do it, I said you shouldn't do it.......I consider this matter closed.

of course you want it closed, because you said this:

Withdrawal from 401k for first home purchase is considered to be a "hardship" condition.  You're still taxed, penalized, and can't contribute for 6 months.  Forget it.

you can take a loan from your 401k without any of that. but, with mortage rates at essentially zero I don't know why you would.

No you can't.  If you take money from your 401k you are penalized.  You can roll your 401k over to an IRA to avoid the penalties but you'd be paying a higher interest rate. 

it has nothing to do with investing strategy. it has to do with me saying you can take a loan without being taxed, paying a penalty, etc. and you saying you couldn't.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 03:11:38 PM
Hey lopakman, take a lap and let the big boys hand out the good advice.

I dont want KSC or any other youngsters coming in here and accidentally taking your advice

Someone just take all my moneys and make like 2-3% every year except for the moneys I need to buy stuff and live on. Is that too much to ask for? Also when I retire at age 65 or whatever make sure I'm not a poor.

Just buy an index fund and you will make 7% every year.

Link? I know absolutely nothing about index funds.

Also I want KSU Cats season tickets for football. Pretty simple budget here, folks. Who wants to be my personal finance manager?

I dont know enough about index funds to recommend an particular one, ask pete or something. All my funds are currently in more aggressive investments since I am just a youngster.

I have been reading about Index funds and will probably add them to the portfolio at some point. Index funds are basically just mutual funds that are built to track the stock market tit for tat. The dow goes up 10% in a year then your portfolio goes up 10% for the year. Their expense ratio's are also very low which is a good thing.

They are great for people who want to put minimal effort into investing and still build a nice retirement fund.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 03:13:52 PM
Congrats, ben ji, you're hired! Just bring your cute ass puppy to our meetings and we'll get along just great. Also don't spend all my money on fishing stuff cuz I'm gonna need it at some point.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 03:15:49 PM
Hey lopakman, take a lap and let the big boys hand out the good advice.

I dont want KSC or any other youngsters coming in here and accidentally taking your advice

Someone just take all my moneys and make like 2-3% every year except for the moneys I need to buy stuff and live on. Is that too much to ask for? Also when I retire at age 65 or whatever make sure I'm not a poor.

Just buy an index fund and you will make 7% every year.

Link? I know absolutely nothing about index funds.

Also I want KSU Cats season tickets for football. Pretty simple budget here, folks. Who wants to be my personal finance manager?

open your IRA, throw it all into whichever one of these you fit into:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/TargetRetirementList
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: SabiNation on April 16, 2013, 03:16:46 PM
I want a finance manager too!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 03:18:36 PM

open your IRA, throw it all into whichever one of these you fit into:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/TargetRetirementList

thanks super awesome life planner steve dave!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 03:26:48 PM

open your IRA, throw it all into whichever one of these you fit into:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/TargetRetirementList

thanks super awesome life planner steve dave!

Yeah, the one thing about Index funds is that most(at least mine) 401k's dont offer them so you will have to get an IRA first.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 03:27:39 PM
Congrats, ben ji, you're hired! Just bring your cute ass puppy to our meetings and we'll get along just great. Also don't spend all my money on fishing stuff cuz I'm gonna need it at some point.

No meeting neccesary, just ask questions here and send me 1 fishing pole a year as payment.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Whale on April 16, 2013, 03:30:56 PM
investing tips for new grads:

At least make sure you invest enough to get the complete company match coming out of school.

Consider upping your retirement % with each raise.  4% raise -- try to add 1-2% to retirement.   

Since you'll eventually be hitting the 401k max, figure out how your company does matching.  Some may only match X% every paycheck that you actually contribute at least X%.  So if you hit the yearly max in October and shut off contributions, you may be leaving money on the table.

Don't invest much (if any) in company stock.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
investing tips for new grads:

At least make sure you invest enough to get the complete company match coming out of school.

Consider upping your retirement % with each raise.  4% raise -- try to add 1-2% to retirement.   

Since you'll eventually be hitting the 401k max, figure out how your company does matching.  Some may only match X% every paycheck that you actually contribute at least X%.  So if you hit the yearly max in October and shut off contributions, you may be leaving money on the table.

Don't invest much (if any) in company stock.

ben ji! should i listen to this guy?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: tdaver on April 16, 2013, 03:34:10 PM
I changed jobs a couple years ago and still haven't done anything with my old 401k.  It's all in one of those age-based retirement funds except for maybe 1% in the old company stock.

Should I leave it, roll-over to new 401k, roll-over IRA?  I'm already maxing out Roth and current 401k up to match.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 03:34:51 PM

open your IRA, throw it all into whichever one of these you fit into:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/TargetRetirementList

thanks super awesome life planner steve dave!

Yeah, the one thing about Index funds is that most(at least mine) 401k's dont offer them so you will have to get an IRA first.

Our company's 401k is through Vanguard so we have about 20 different Vanguard funds to choose from as well as all their target retirement funds. It's pretty baller. We also have a Roth 401k option. 100% match to 6%. Also a pension. Yep, a pension. In 2013. If I quit today I already get like $500 a month starting at age 65.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 03:36:10 PM
I changed jobs a couple years ago and still haven't done anything with my old 401k.  It's all in one of those age-based retirement funds except for maybe 1% in the old company stock.

Should I leave it, roll-over to new 401k, roll-over IRA?  I'm already maxing out Roth and current 401k up to match.

Since you already have an IRA you should prolly just roll it over into the current IRA. More for ease of use than anything.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 03:36:28 PM
Since you'll eventually be hitting the 401k max, figure out how your company does matching.  Some may only match X% every paycheck that you actually contribute at least X%.  So if you hit the yearly max in October and shut off contributions, you may be leaving money on the table.

good tip here
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 03:40:20 PM
Also, max individual contribution to Roth IRA is (right now) $5000.  Why do I, ever year, contribute $5200 thinking that is max?  I don't know folks.  So like learn from my mistake here young folks.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 16, 2013, 03:41:09 PM
Also, max individual contribution to Roth IRA is (right now) $5000.  Why do I, ever year, contribute $5200 thinking that is max?  I don't know folks.  So like learn from my mistake here young folks.

$5500 (unless you are old balls and then it's more)

1998–2001 $2,000
2002–2004 $3,000
2005 $4,000
2006–2007 $4,000
2008–2012 $5,000
2013 $5,500
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 16, 2013, 03:42:27 PM
Also, max individual contribution to Roth IRA is (right now) $5000.  Why do I, ever year, contribute $5200 thinking that is max?  I don't know folks.  So like learn from my mistake here young folks.

$5000 for 2012 $5500 for 2013.

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics-IRA-Contribution-Limits (http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics-IRA-Contribution-Limits)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 16, 2013, 03:44:18 PM

open your IRA, throw it all into whichever one of these you fit into:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/TargetRetirementList

thanks super awesome life planner steve dave!

Yeah, the one thing about Index funds is that most(at least mine) 401k's dont offer them so you will have to get an IRA first.

Our company's 401k is through Vanguard so we have about 20 different Vanguard funds to choose from as well as all their target retirement funds. It's pretty baller. We also have a Roth 401k option. 100% match to 6%. Also a pension. Yep, a pension. In 2013. If I quit today I already get like $500 a month starting at age 65.

I just checked my 401(k) options and there are 2 options for Contribution Rate: Pre-tax, and Roth. Do i switch to Roth?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 03:44:40 PM
Also, max individual contribution to Roth IRA is (right now) $5000.  Why do I, ever year, contribute $5200 thinking that is max?  I don't know folks.  So like learn from my mistake here young folks.

$5500 (unless you are old balls and then it's more)

1998–2001 $2,000
2002–2004 $3,000
2005 $4,000
2006–2007 $4,000
2008–2012 $5,000
2013 $5,500

I meant for 2012.  But good to hear it went up!  :thumbs:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 03:47:29 PM
investing tips for new grads:

At least make sure you invest enough to get the complete company match coming out of school.

Consider upping your retirement % with each raise.  4% raise -- try to add 1-2% to retirement.   

Since you'll eventually be hitting the 401k max, figure out how your company does matching.  Some may only match X% every paycheck that you actually contribute at least X%.  So if you hit the yearly max in October and shut off contributions, you may be leaving money on the table.

Don't invest much (if any) in company stock.

ben ji! should i listen to this guy?

Good advice here. Only difference I have is that I would invest into your 401k just enough to get the full match. Some companies will match X amount with no limit but most companies will only match the first 6% or 50% of the first 10% etc.

Say your compay will only match the first 5% you invest but you want to invest 15% of your income. Put the first 5% in your 401k to get the company match and then put the remaining 10%(after tax) in your roth ira to get access to more fund choices. If you max out your IRA and still have some of that 10% left then throw it back in the 401k.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Brock Landers on April 16, 2013, 03:50:21 PM

open your IRA, throw it all into whichever one of these you fit into:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/TargetRetirementList

thanks super awesome life planner steve dave!

Yeah, the one thing about Index funds is that most(at least mine) 401k's dont offer them so you will have to get an IRA first.

Our company's 401k is through Vanguard so we have about 20 different Vanguard funds to choose from as well as all their target retirement funds. It's pretty baller. We also have a Roth 401k option. 100% match to 6%. Also a pension. Yep, a pension. In 2013. If I quit today I already get like $500 a month starting at age 65.


My company discontinued their pension plan to new associates like 6 weeks before I started   :curse:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 03:53:18 PM
investing tips for new grads:

At least make sure you invest enough to get the complete company match coming out of school.

Consider upping your retirement % with each raise.  4% raise -- try to add 1-2% to retirement.   

Since you'll eventually be hitting the 401k max, figure out how your company does matching.  Some may only match X% every paycheck that you actually contribute at least X%.  So if you hit the yearly max in October and shut off contributions, you may be leaving money on the table.

Don't invest much (if any) in company stock.

ben ji! should i listen to this guy?

Good advice here. Only difference I have is that I would invest into your 401k just enough to get the full match. Some companies will match X amount with no limit but most companies will only match the first 6% or 50% of the first 10% etc.

Say your compay will only match the first 5% you invest but you want to invest 15% of your income. Put the first 5% in your 401k to get the company match and then put the remaining 10%(after tax) in your roth ira to get access to more fund choices. If you max out your IRA and still have some of that 10% left then throw it back in the 401k.

Yeah, so I should be putting money into my Roth IRA every month? I basically just made a (semi) large contribution this morning, it has more money in it than my 401k does right now, about double actually. My company matches up to a certain percent and then a partial match up to another percent. I should be putting in as much as they will match even part of it, right?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 03:55:44 PM

open your IRA, throw it all into whichever one of these you fit into:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/TargetRetirementList

thanks super awesome life planner steve dave!

Yeah, the one thing about Index funds is that most(at least mine) 401k's dont offer them so you will have to get an IRA first.

Our company's 401k is through Vanguard so we have about 20 different Vanguard funds to choose from as well as all their target retirement funds. It's pretty baller. We also have a Roth 401k option. 100% match to 6%. Also a pension. Yep, a pension. In 2013. If I quit today I already get like $500 a month starting at age 65.

A PENSION  :sdeek:, thats crazy talk.

I just checked my 401k options with American Funds and they have like 10 not counting the Target date funds. Only 4 are "Growth" funds.

I havent made up my mind on target date funds, have about 30% of my 401k in one though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 03:58:41 PM
investing tips for new grads:

At least make sure you invest enough to get the complete company match coming out of school.

Consider upping your retirement % with each raise.  4% raise -- try to add 1-2% to retirement.   

Since you'll eventually be hitting the 401k max, figure out how your company does matching.  Some may only match X% every paycheck that you actually contribute at least X%.  So if you hit the yearly max in October and shut off contributions, you may be leaving money on the table.

Don't invest much (if any) in company stock.

ben ji! should i listen to this guy?

Good advice here. Only difference I have is that I would invest into your 401k just enough to get the full match. Some companies will match X amount with no limit but most companies will only match the first 6% or 50% of the first 10% etc.

Say your compay will only match the first 5% you invest but you want to invest 15% of your income. Put the first 5% in your 401k to get the company match and then put the remaining 10%(after tax) in your roth ira to get access to more fund choices. If you max out your IRA and still have some of that 10% left then throw it back in the 401k.

Yeah, so I should be putting money into my Roth IRA every month? I basically just made a (semi) large contribution this morning, it has more money in it than my 401k does right now, about double actually. My company matches up to a certain percent and then a partial match up to another percent. I should be putting in as much as they will match even part of it, right?

Correct, even if you get a partial match its free money.

Just figure out how much you need to contribute each month for max out your IRA((5500-amount you just put in)/9) and just have it automatically deducted each month and have it put into whatever fund you want it in.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 04:02:22 PM
 :sdeek: im not made of money, ben ji. you should know that you're my personal finance manager.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Whale on April 16, 2013, 04:04:56 PM
Our company's 401k is through Vanguard so we have about 20 different Vanguard funds to choose from as well as all their target retirement funds. It's pretty baller. We also have a Roth 401k option. 100% match to 6%. Also a pension. Yep, a pension. In 2013. If I quit today I already get like $500 a month starting at age 65.

100% match to 6% WITH the pension?

 :sdeek:

Gotta figure eventually the pension will be bought out, but still...
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 16, 2013, 04:15:07 PM
Our company's 401k is through Vanguard so we have about 20 different Vanguard funds to choose from as well as all their target retirement funds. It's pretty baller. We also have a Roth 401k option. 100% match to 6%. Also a pension. Yep, a pension. In 2013. If I quit today I already get like $500 a month starting at age 65.

our companies have identical retirement benefits  :thumbs:

though idk really about the roth 401 option.  I get the 6% and a pension though.

WAIT MAYBE WE WORK AT THE SAME PLACE
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 04:17:46 PM
:sdeek: im not made of money, ben ji. you should know that you're my personal finance manager.

Okay well take 10/15%(whichever you prefer) of your salary.

x= amount you want to save
Y= amount you contribute  to 401k to get any type of match
z= amount you contribute to IRA

X-Y=Z

Once you figure out what Z is just divide it by 12 and have it automatically withdrawn each month on a certain date.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 04:20:27 PM
:sdeek: im not made of money, ben ji. you should know that you're my personal finance manager.

Okay well take 10/15%(whichever you prefer) of your salary.

x= amount you want to save
Y= amount you contribute  to 401k to get any type of match
z= amount you contribute to IRA

X-Y=Z

Once you figure out what Z is just divide it by 12 and have it automatically withdrawn each month on a certain date.

 :thumbs: you got it, boss.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 16, 2013, 04:20:45 PM
if I work for this company until I'm 55 I get 967.68 a month until I die.  or a bunch of other silly options that are all like 900 a month or so.  or I can take 1879.52 for 10 years.  or I can get a lump sum of 197,519.20.  that's pretty cool I guess.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 04:23:34 PM
if I work for this company until I'm 55 I get 967.68 a month until I die.  or a bunch of other silly options that are all like 900 a month or so.  or I can take 1879.52 for 10 years.  or I can get a lump sum of 197,519.20.  that's pretty cool I guess.

are you looking for advice? ask ben ji, he handles that kind of stuff for me
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CNS on April 16, 2013, 04:26:24 PM
if I work for this company until I'm 55 I get 967.68 a month until I die.  or a bunch of other silly options that are all like 900 a month or so.  or I can take 1879.52 for 10 years.  or I can get a lump sum of 197,519.20.  that's pretty cool I guess.

1. Lump sum
2. craps thread
3. profit
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 04:27:55 PM
I dont know anything about pensions, dont have one  :frown:.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Fedor on April 16, 2013, 04:31:23 PM
Let's talk student loans, and not those pud undergrad ones with 1.9% interest.  I am talking grown ass man grad school student loans with the terrible interest rates.  Is there any way to consolidate with a better rate or term?   
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 16, 2013, 04:37:03 PM
Let's talk student loans, and not those pud undergrad ones with 1.9% interest.  I am talking grown ass man grad school student loans with the terrible interest rates.  Is there any way to consolidate with a better rate or term?

Also answer this for married couple, can combine?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 04:41:24 PM
Let's talk student loans, and not those pud undergrad ones with 1.9% interest.  I am talking grown ass man grad school student loans with the terrible interest rates.  Is there any way to consolidate with a better rate or term?

What rate are you paying? Maybe you could refinance your house and use that money to pay off the student loans. It really kind of depends on your situation.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Fedor on April 16, 2013, 04:44:41 PM
Let's talk student loans, and not those pud undergrad ones with 1.9% interest.  I am talking grown ass man grad school student loans with the terrible interest rates.  Is there any way to consolidate with a better rate or term?

What rate are you paying? Maybe you could refinance your house and use that money to pay off the student loans. It really kind of depends on your situation.
Planning on moving soon, so that hampers things a bit.  Paying 6.7% on a 10-yr term,  :barf:.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ChiCat on April 16, 2013, 04:45:44 PM
I dont know anything about pensions, dont have one  :frown:.

Don't you have to work somewhere like 10 years to get a pension?  I don't think its some retirement thing that you can just throw money at.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: hemmy on April 16, 2013, 04:46:53 PM
I always just max out my roth IRA contribution in January each year.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mancattanite on April 16, 2013, 05:27:08 PM
Let's talk student loans, and not those pud undergrad ones with 1.9% interest.  I am talking grown ass man grad school student loans with the terrible interest rates.  Is there any way to consolidate with a better rate or term?

What rate are you paying? Maybe you could refinance your house and use that money to pay off the student loans. It really kind of depends on your situation.
Planning on moving soon, so that hampers things a bit.  Paying 6.7% on a 10-yr term,  :barf:.

I always thought consolidation was more to lengthen the term and lower the monthly payment, not really to help with the rate...  :frown:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 16, 2013, 05:36:33 PM
if I work for this company until I'm 55 I get 967.68 a month until I die.  or a bunch of other silly options that are all like 900 a month or so.  or I can take 1879.52 for 10 years.  or I can get a lump sum of 197,519.20.  that's pretty cool I guess.

1. Lump sum
2. craps thread
3. profit

hmm, good idea. or I could live off my 401 and take my 900 a month and just go play craps with it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: jmlynch1 on April 16, 2013, 05:48:11 PM
I'm just planning on living really hard and hoping science stalls.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Fedor on April 16, 2013, 06:04:22 PM
Let's talk student loans, and not those pud undergrad ones with 1.9% interest.  I am talking grown ass man grad school student loans with the terrible interest rates.  Is there any way to consolidate with a better rate or term?

What rate are you paying? Maybe you could refinance your house and use that money to pay off the student loans. It really kind of depends on your situation.
Planning on moving soon, so that hampers things a bit.  Paying 6.7% on a 10-yr term,  :barf:.

I always thought consolidation was more to lengthen the term and lower the monthly payment, not really to help with the rate...  :frown:
Well, you guys are really stumped on this one...
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: reidrolled on April 16, 2013, 06:38:10 PM
2 things have become painfully obvious in this thread.

#1 stevedave actually works in the finance industry and has for a while.
       1a. there are a couple who like to think they could work in the finance industry.

#2 this entire thread would only be one, maybe two pages if the posters referenced in 1a knew how to work google.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 16, 2013, 06:53:02 PM
are index funds good?  that's what my 401 is. am I smart?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 16, 2013, 07:12:09 PM
2 things have become painfully obvious in this thread.

#1 stevedave actually works in the finance industry and has for a while.
       1a. there are a couple who like to think they could work in the finance industry.
       1b. reidrolled is a hater who doesnt like it when friends give advice to friends

#2 this entire thread would only be one, maybe two pages if the posters referenced in 1a knew how to work google.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 16, 2013, 07:27:40 PM
Seems hard to invest a ton of money in retirement from my seat at age 20-something. I have very few monthly expenses... pretty much just student loans and rent, but I feel like watching all that money pile up in my checking account is a bad idea. Guys, what if I have to buy a wedding ring or something in 2 years? Should I be paying my student loans off at a higher rate? Seems silly, they are ridiculously high as is. Oh that leads me to another question... wtf is consolidating student loans? Should I do that? Will it lower my payments? GUYS!!!!

not federal loans. if you have multiple private loans, you can consolidate them and save money.

I consolidated all my fed loans except Perkins. was that dumb?  crap!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EMAWmeister on April 16, 2013, 07:46:56 PM
Alright, next step, you guys...

Have a 401K brewing with the maximum match and just opened a Roth IRA. What else? Wouldn't mind playing the market a little bit at a time. What's the best way to do that? Does goEMAW.com have stock? I know a good investment when I see one.

Give me your money, KSC. I'll be sure that your money makes money.  I was thinking about Herbalife or this one startup that takes precious metals out of all the poor countries in Africa and moves them to Belgium.

Send me a PM
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 16, 2013, 07:51:22 PM
are index funds good?  that's what my 401 is. am I smart?

Yeah index finds are good because they have lower fees and most actively managed funds don't beat their indexes anyway.


Lots of people are touting Roths and they are good but the problem is you can phase out of them pretty easily especially if you are married and both you and your spouse have good jobs.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 16, 2013, 07:56:27 PM
are index funds good?  that's what my 401 is. am I smart?

Yeah index finds are good because they have lower fees and most actively managed funds don't beat their indexes anyway.


Lots of people are touting Roths and they are good but the problem is you can phase out of them pretty easily especially if you are married and both you and your spouse have good jobs.

most of my fiancées income is going toward building a pool full of gold coins for me to swim in like Scrooge McDuck, but after that what should I invest her income in?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 16, 2013, 08:10:11 PM
are index funds good?  that's what my 401 is. am I smart?

Yeah index finds are good because they have lower fees and most actively managed funds don't beat their indexes anyway.


Lots of people are touting Roths and they are good but the problem is you can phase out of them pretty easily especially if you are married and both you and your spouse have good jobs.

most of my fiancées income is going toward building a pool full of gold coins for me to swim in like Scrooge McDuck, but after that what should I invest her income in?

Well the good news is gold is tanking lately and is well off it's highs so you're going to save some money on that pool.  Once you get that built id probably stuck with the index funds.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 09:04:37 PM
My student loans are 6.8%  :goodbyecruelworld:

Might move to Canada...
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 16, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
Our company's 401k is through Vanguard so we have about 20 different Vanguard funds to choose from as well as all their target retirement funds. It's pretty baller. We also have a Roth 401k option. 100% match to 6%.

pretty nice.  i can't complain about my 401k, except that the self-invest options suck ass.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 16, 2013, 09:47:49 PM
also, someone rename this thread as personal finance for recent grads and start an investment thread.  in that thread, someone explain bonds to me.  not like i'm a six year old, like i'm really smart.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Dugout DickStone on April 16, 2013, 09:53:58 PM
My advisor has averaged close to 10% for 3 years, is this a ponzi?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 16, 2013, 09:57:09 PM
also, someone rename this thread as personal finance for recent grads and start an investment thread.  in that thread, someone explain bonds to me.  not like i'm a six year old, like i'm really smart.

Bonds, or bond funds?  Very different.

Lot of people who just buy bonds look at "par" values and rates of return and that stuff, but that's missing the point.

Bond fund mangers focus on what they call "credit tear downs."   They focus all of their energy on trying to figure out if a given debtor can pay their bills.  Their goal is to find firms who are regarded as credit risks by the general public, but who actually have the cash/assets to pay their bills and service their debt.

So, if you want to really understand bonds, you need to under stand balance sheets and credit tear downs....just like the bond fund guys do.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 16, 2013, 09:59:14 PM
My advisor has averaged close to 10% for 3 years, is this a ponzi?

Two years ago, maybe....now, not unlikely.  Cash out, and buy an S&P index fund.  Pay super low (next to none) fees, and "match" the market every year.  Retire happy and play botche ball with me and drink little old man beers.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: scottwildcat on April 16, 2013, 10:01:14 PM
My advisor has averaged close to 10% for 3 years, is this a ponzi?

Two years ago, maybe....now, not unlikely.  Cash out, and buy an S&P index fund.  Pay super low (next to none) fees, and "match" the market every year.  Retire happy and play botche ball with me and drink little old man beers.

Pete gets it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 16, 2013, 10:04:45 PM
my 401 is in a vanguard target fund, vfifx. it's done really well for me, especially over the last year (13.44%).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Dugout DickStone on April 16, 2013, 10:05:40 PM
My advisor has averaged close to 10% for 3 years, is this a ponzi?

Two years ago, maybe....now, not unlikely.  Cash out, and buy an S&P index fund.  Pay super low (next to none) fees, and "match" the market every year.  Retire happy and play botche ball with me and drink little old man beers.

New question, how do I maximize my safe harbor  match?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 16, 2013, 10:08:04 PM
also, someone rename this thread as personal finance for recent grads and start an investment thread.  in that thread, someone explain bonds to me.  not like i'm a six year old, like i'm really smart.

Bonds, or bond funds?  Very different.

Lot of people who just buy bonds look at "par" values and rates of return and that stuff, but that's missing the point.

Bond fund mangers focus on what they call "credit tear downs."   They focus all of their energy on trying to figure out if a given debtor can pay their bills.  Their goal is to find firms who are regarded as credit risks by the general public, but who actually have the cash/assets to pay their bills and service their debt.

So, if you want to really understand bonds, you need to under stand balance sheets and credit tear downs....just like the bond fund guys do.

bond funds.  i'm pretty overconfident, but not so much that i'm going to invest in distressed credit by myself.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Dugout DickStone on April 16, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
Lots of investing iq here, glad I pay someone to do this for me.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 16, 2013, 10:17:30 PM
My advisor has averaged close to 10% for 3 years, is this a ponzi?

Two years ago, maybe....now, not unlikely.  Cash out, and buy an S&P index fund.  Pay super low (next to none) fees, and "match" the market every year.  Retire happy and play botche ball with me and drink little old man beers.

New question, how do I maximize my safe harbor  match?

I can't help you on that one.

However, to reiterate my belief in index funds, the smartest guy I have ever met told me that the worst thing that his finance/accounting people could do was to try and make him richer...instead just match the market at super low fees.  He said he'll focus on getting rich on doing what he knows how to do (focusing on his occupation).

A mutual friend of LSOC and I who now owns a private equity fund was once a HUGE disciple of John Bogle, founder of Vangaurd who wrote "Truth about Mutual Funds." http://www.amazon.com/Bogle-Mutual-Funds-Perspectives-Intelligent/dp/0440506824

This friend was ADAMANT that the best way to realize a healthy return was index funds..........


......but then, he decided to create his own fund.  He joined the other side....and he now reaps the rewards.


He interviewed for a Wall Street analyst job once, for an equity fund, and the portfolio manger told him that he decided to be a fund manger because he couldn't sing (couldn't be a rock star) and wasn't an athlete (couldn't play pro ball), so managing funds was the next most profitable gig.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 16, 2013, 10:21:06 PM
also, someone rename this thread as personal finance for recent grads and start an investment thread.  in that thread, someone explain bonds to me.  not like i'm a six year old, like i'm really smart.

Bonds, or bond funds?  Very different.

Lot of people who just buy bonds look at "par" values and rates of return and that stuff, but that's missing the point.

Bond fund mangers focus on what they call "credit tear downs."   They focus all of their energy on trying to figure out if a given debtor can pay their bills.  Their goal is to find firms who are regarded as credit risks by the general public, but who actually have the cash/assets to pay their bills and service their debt.

So, if you want to really understand bonds, you need to under stand balance sheets and credit tear downs....just like the bond fund guys do.

bond funds.  i'm pretty overconfident, but not so much that i'm going to invest in distressed credit by myself.

Good.

Here is the catch.  You need to rule out the cowboys.  Most of them are cowboys. They all want to be the "smart" one who is the leader in finding the gems.  I worked for a mutual fund company for a time, in corporate accounting, so we saw all the blood and guts of what happened when those guys mumped up.

eff that.

Find the fund mangers who have the most consistent returns. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 16, 2013, 10:33:36 PM
Find the fund mangers who have the most consistent returns.

i need more basic than that.  like why/when would i want to put money in bonds instead of stocks?  why are returns so variable if the underlying securities return fixed %s?  i just don't understand the whole market.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 10:39:30 PM
I've always been told that bond prices rise when interest rates fall.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on April 16, 2013, 10:40:03 PM
I've always been told that bond prices rise when interest rates fall.

So if interest rates are at all time lows....
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 16, 2013, 10:41:41 PM
I've always been told that bond prices rise when interest rates fall.

So if interest rates are at all time lows....

Yeah, seems like a bad investment, if true.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 16, 2013, 10:46:06 PM
my 401 is in a vanguard target fund, vfifx. it's done really well for me, especially over the last year (13.44%).

I think my Roth is on the same fund, but i literally had no idea how it was performing until you posted that. I mean, I knew it was growing, but i had no idea on the percentage.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 16, 2013, 10:49:19 PM
All this big boy investment talk has my head spinning. Ben ji, you're not doing anything too. Crazy with my money right?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 16, 2013, 10:51:47 PM
Find the fund mangers who have the most consistent returns.

i need more basic than that.  like why/when would i want to put money in bonds instead of stocks?  why are returns so variable if the underlying securities return fixed %s?  i just don't understand the whole market.

Several things can impact the price of bonds but mostly they flucuate with the movement of interest rates and with the credit ratings of the companies that issued them.  A simplified rule of thumb is you want to be in bonds when interest rates are higher and in stocks when they are lower.   Bonds move the opposite direction of interest rates so now really isn't a good time to be in them because there is pretty much only one way for rates to move and that is up.  When that happens bond values will fall and already have started to in anticipation of this.  Low interest rate environments are generally good for stocks because the cost of capital is low and margins tend to be high.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EMAWmeister on April 16, 2013, 10:52:32 PM
Find the fund mangers who have the most consistent returns.

i need more basic than that.  like why/when would i want to put money in bonds instead of stocks? 

The nutshell answer is that investing in debt is safer than investing in equity. Worst case scenario, you recoup some of your original investment. Best case scenario you get a fairly low % of steady growth over the life of the bond.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 16, 2013, 11:07:23 PM
A simplified rule of thumb is you want to be in bonds when interest rates are higher and in stocks when they are lower.

i get that, but i think it is overly simplified.  some guys seem to make money (in bonds) in all markets.
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 17, 2013, 06:57:06 AM
A simplified rule of thumb is you want to be in bonds when interest rates are higher and in stocks when they are lower.

i get that, but i think it is overly simplified.  some guys seem to make money (in bonds) in all markets.

Again, it's all about the credit worthiness of the debtor.  They make money in all markets only when they can pay their bills.  Most bonds are a fixed percentage for the life of the bond, so you are guaranteed that return as long as the debtor doesn't go bankrupt.

If you don't need your money for quite a while, I wouldn't invest in bonds. 

Look at the historical returns.  Large cap equities are at around 10% since WW2, and bonds are maybe 6% or lower, IIRC.

I know I sound like a broken record, but buy an S&P index fund and sleep well.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 07:25:28 AM
sddad is, like, a railroad gambler on commodities.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 07:26:15 AM
also, Pete is like the most smart investment market understander guy I know.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 08:19:32 AM
For finance based calculations, what do you guys figure for rate of appreciation for residential real-estate in a upper middle class Johnson County neighborhood?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 08:26:21 AM
For finance based calculations, what do you guys figure for rate of appreciation for residential real-estate in a upper middle class Johnson County neighborhood?

somewhere around 0%
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 17, 2013, 08:28:21 AM
All this big boy investment talk has my head spinning. Ben ji, you're not doing anything too. Crazy with my money right?

Got a great opportunity now, you may need to double down on original investment. Will PM more deets.

Posted from my Fishing Yacht "Strung up and out" in The Cayman Islands
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 17, 2013, 08:40:49 AM
All this big boy investment talk has my head spinning. Ben ji, you're not doing anything too. Crazy with my money right?

Got a great opportunity now, you may need to double down on original investment. Will PM more deets.

Posted from my Fishing Yacht "Strung up and out" in The Cayman Islands

 :excited:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 17, 2013, 08:41:58 AM
Also, I'd like to note that much like insider information with K-State football, this is a safe place to PM steve dave insider trading information.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 08:48:55 AM
My advisor has averaged close to 10% for 3 years, is this a ponzi?

Two years ago, maybe....now, not unlikely.  Cash out, and buy an S&P index fund.  Pay super low (next to none) fees, and "match" the market every year.  Retire happy and play botche ball with me and drink little old man beers.

New question, how do I maximize my safe harbor  match?
it depends.  the basic match is 100% up to 3% and 50% from 3% to 5%.  but they could be using an enhanced matching formula.  it all depends on how the plan was designed.

edit: go to your hr person and ask for a "summary plan description" of the 401k.  the match rules are outlined in that in pretty plain language.  or just ask your hr person how to max out your match.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CNS on April 17, 2013, 08:56:29 AM
my 401 is in a vanguard target fund, vfifx. it's done really well for me, especially over the last year (13.44%).

Everything has done really well over the last yr.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 17, 2013, 09:03:50 AM
A simplified rule of thumb is you want to be in bonds when interest rates are higher and in stocks when they are lower.

i get that, but i think it is overly simplified.  some guys seem to make money (in bonds) in all markets.

yeah that goes back to knowing the credit risks.  Bond ratings are very public and easy to obtain the guys that consistently outperform are the guys that have better information then the ratings bureaus.  It can be done but not easily, so it's something I would stay away from worrying about. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 17, 2013, 09:10:31 AM
For finance based calculations, what do you guys figure for rate of appreciation for residential real-estate in a upper middle class Johnson County neighborhood?

somewhere around 0%

good answer it's nice if your home goes up in value but I don't think you ever want to be in a situation where you are expecting/counting on it. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on April 17, 2013, 09:13:00 AM
sys the market is inefficient. theories are just that.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 17, 2013, 09:14:34 AM
For finance based calculations, what do you guys figure for rate of appreciation for residential real-estate in a upper middle class Johnson County neighborhood?

somewhere around 0%

good answer it's nice if your home goes up in value but I don't think you ever want to be in a situation where you are expecting/counting on it.

The biggest flaw with counting on home value increasing as an investment is that you need a place to live.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CNS on April 17, 2013, 09:22:08 AM
Any finance guys deal with American Funds?  My guy is trying to get me in them now. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:23:03 AM
Any finance guys deal with American Funds?  My guy is trying to get me in them now.

because they pay him well. a good pro-tip is not to have "a guy".
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CNS on April 17, 2013, 09:23:46 AM
Any finance guys deal with American Funds?  My guy is trying to get me in them now.

because they pay him well

Yeah, they seem to have a pretty high expense ratio.  Like, really high. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:25:57 AM
Any finance guys deal with American Funds?  My guy is trying to get me in them now.

because they pay him well

Yeah, they seem to have a pretty high expense ratio.  Like, really high.

I edited my post above but in almost every situation it's best not to have "a guy" because of this.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 17, 2013, 09:26:53 AM
Any finance guys deal with American Funds?  My guy is trying to get me in them now.

because they pay him well

Yeah, they seem to have a pretty high expense ratio.  Like, really high.

My 401k is through american funds and the expense ratio's are all very high. I would assume "Having a guy" would make that even higher.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:27:02 AM
never buy whole life
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:28:33 AM
Any finance guys deal with American Funds?  My guy is trying to get me in them now.

because they pay him well

Yeah, they seem to have a pretty high expense ratio.  Like, really high.

My 401k is through american funds and the expense ratio's are all very high. I would assume "Having a guy" would make that even higher.

no, it would be the same...unless you're paying him for some reason. in almost all instances the guy just gets a kickback for selling whatever product.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:30:42 AM
that's why "the guy" is a stupid waste of time and detrimental to your investments in almost every situation. he has a clear conflict of interest because he gets a larger kickback from some products than others. because of this he will want you to purchase those products.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 17, 2013, 09:32:29 AM
that's why "the guy" is a stupid waste of time and detrimental to your investments in almost every situation. he has a clear conflict of interest because he gets a larger kickback from some products than others. because of this he will want you to purchase those products.

So people shouldn't use financial advisors?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 09:38:32 AM
never buy whole life

Oh man.  Had a old friend hounding me on this stuff for months.  Had to be blunt.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 17, 2013, 09:38:35 AM
Any finance guys deal with American Funds?  My guy is trying to get me in them now.

because they pay him well. a good pro-tip is not to have "a guy".
Agree. Disagree.

If you have an idiot guy, then I'd agree. I'd just make certain I knew why my guy was wanting me to do what he wants me to do. Always make certain you know how much money your guys is making. If you are paying him, you need to know how much you are paying him. How do you find out? Ask him. See how that compares to what it costs to invest on your own. If your guy doesn't bring anything more to the table than, "Hey, I think you should invest in American Funds," then you need a different guy.

Now, for several of you on here, I will agree that it is fine to go it alone, but you still need to make certain you know what your long term goals are and you have to stick to your plan.

Further advice, when crap looks the worst, invest more and if your plan is good and if your cheese has not moved drastically, invest in the same crap. Lots of dumbasses in my office moved their money to safety in Jan-Mar 2009. Some of them just moved it back into growth investments over the last year. They lost a lot of opportunity.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:39:24 AM
that's why "the guy" is a stupid waste of time and detrimental to your investments in almost every situation. he has a clear conflict of interest because he gets a larger kickback from some products than others. because of this he will want you to purchase those products.

So people shouldn't use financial advisors?

sometimes they should. there are definitely good ones out there. the problem is that no matter how good they are their profession has built in conflicts of interest. plus, 98% of the population would do better just contributing to their 401(k), starting an IRA and investing in broad index funds with anything they have left over.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:40:14 AM
never buy whole life

Oh man.  Had a old friend hounding me on this stuff for months.  Had to be blunt.

because it pays him well. it's one of the worst "investments" you can make.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 09:43:33 AM
never buy whole life

Oh man.  Had a old friend hounding me on this stuff for months.  Had to be blunt.

because it pays him well. it's one of the worst "investments" you can make.

He was new to it (taking over for an old guy), trying to build his own base.  I doubt he's doing that well with it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 09:44:54 AM
re: american funds

garbage.  stay away.  they used to be great (a long time ago) but they're sort of a victim of their own success because they're just so big. also their managers are crap now. double whammy.  sd is right though, lots of shitty "advisors" still push them because they give lots of perks and kickbacks

re: having an advisor

never pay a commission (A share or B share mutual funds)...ever.  if you don't have enough money to meet the minimum for a wrap fee account, do it yourself and buy a couple of basic index etfs in a fidelity/etrade/schwab account.  if you really don't feel comfortable doing it yourself, demand C share mutual funds and never pay over 1% in a wrap fee account.  ask lots of questions and make sure you understand exactly why you own each and every investment.

re: whole life

yes. in most situations whole life is a waste of money (and pays the guy selling it to you a huge commission).  it's a pretty good tool for estate planning and very high income earners, but in most cases you should just buy term.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:47:00 AM
pro-tip: home business tax shelter. everyone should have one.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 09:47:27 AM
FYI, E*Trade is EMAW. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:48:21 AM
FYI, E*Trade is EMAW.

ameritrade owns the cubs
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on April 17, 2013, 09:52:39 AM
pro-tip: home business tax shelter. everyone should have one.

like self proprietor or llc? what would my benefits be? should i make one? why?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 09:53:24 AM
pro-tip: home business tax shelter. everyone should have one.
that's pretty aggressive.  just make sure it's at least mostly legit.  you're begging for an audit.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 09:57:03 AM
What about old home in LLC being rented?  LLC would likely also include some farm ground.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 09:59:03 AM
pro-tip: home business tax shelter. everyone should have one.
that's pretty aggressive.  just make sure it's at least mostly legit.  you're begging for an audit.

I didn't say fake home business.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 10:00:23 AM
What about old home in LLC being rented?  LLC would likely also include some farm ground.
holy crap yes.  any rentals should be in an llc immediately.  like yesterday.  single member llc's are really easy to set up yourself in kansas.  and yeah you can lump in the farm ground too.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 10:03:34 AM
pro-tip: home business tax shelter. everyone should have one.
that's pretty aggressive.  just make sure it's at least mostly legit.  you're begging for an audit.

I didn't say fake home business.
you just weren't very clear.  not everyone has the circumstances to create a home business but a lot of people do so just to get the tax benefits.  it's an audit red flag and you should just be careful.  that's all I was saying.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 10:03:59 AM
also, someone rename this thread as personal finance for recent grads and start an investment thread.

I think the title is appropriate. Most people that are like, "Hey, I think I'd like to invest some money", aren't aware of 401k's or Roth IRA's.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 17, 2013, 10:04:20 AM
ben ji this is why we need to have meetings with your puppy. i have no idea what these dorks are talking about
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 10:06:29 AM
pro-tip: home business tax shelter. everyone should have one.
that's pretty aggressive.  just make sure it's at least mostly legit.  you're begging for an audit.

I didn't say fake home business.
you just weren't very clear.  not everyone has the circumstances to create a home business but a lot of people do so just to get the tax benefits.  it's an audit red flag and you should just be careful.  that's all I was saying.

 :rolleyes:

almost everyone does something on the side or could potentially do something on the side. people should realize that the benefits of this go well beyond whatever income you think you can generate.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: puniraptor on April 17, 2013, 10:06:52 AM
is there a way to compare roth IRA's from different providers to see which is the best? are all roths ira's basically the same and the differences in providers just customer service stuff and available funds?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 10:08:17 AM
is there a way to compare roth IRA's from different providers to see which is the best? are all roths ira's basically the same and the differences in providers just customer service stuff and available funds?

rules are set by the gov. there isn't a lot of difference between the major players.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 10:08:18 AM
What about old home in LLC being rented?  LLC would likely also include some farm ground.
holy crap yes.  any rentals should be in an llc immediately.  like yesterday.  single member llc's are really easy to set up yourself in kansas.  and yeah you can lump in the farm ground too.

Some family currently does some rentals, buying/fixing up/flipping homes in the winter when farming is slow (no cattle).  Been pretty successful at it for a few years now.  Thinking about doing something similar, or throwing my current house into his LLC and bringing some additional stuff in trade for interest in farm ground.  I don't really want to have to do the "administration" part of renting a house but he's happy to do that for me.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 10:10:05 AM
is there a way to compare roth IRA's from different providers to see which is the best? are all roths ira's basically the same and the differences in providers just customer service stuff and available funds?

Go with Vanguard because they have the lowest fees. You can look around, but I'm guessing Vanguard will always win out.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 17, 2013, 10:12:26 AM
If you don't need your money for quite a while, I wouldn't invest in bonds. 

Look at the historical returns.  Large cap equities are at around 10% since WW2, and bonds are maybe 6% or lower, IIRC.

I know I sound like a broken record, but buy an S&P index fund and sleep well.

hmm.  i still think it's more complicated than that.  i mean, these fund managers aren't always holding to maturity are they?  and even if they are, if you're in the bond fund for a short to moderate time frame, you can't expect the fund price to appreciate at the same rate as the returns of the bonds in the fund.

but, i'll take your advice to continue ignoring bonds.  at least for now.  that's easier for me anyways.

not just going to dump everything in a domestic index though.  too boring.  stock/sector picking is fun to me.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 10:13:10 AM
is there a way to compare roth IRA's from different providers to see which is the best? are all roths ira's basically the same and the differences in providers just customer service stuff and available funds?

Go with Vanguard because they have the lowest fees. You can look around, but I'm guessing Vanguard will always win out.

What's the interface like?  Like I have E*trade and set up another in Scottrade for lower fees but that interface sucks and I hate it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 17, 2013, 10:15:11 AM
is there a way to compare roth IRA's from different providers to see which is the best? are all roths ira's basically the same and the differences in providers just customer service stuff and available funds?

Go with Vanguard because they have the lowest fees. You can look around, but I'm guessing Vanguard will always win out.
Don't forget the keys to the winery!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 10:15:27 AM
is there a way to compare roth IRA's from different providers to see which is the best? are all roths ira's basically the same and the differences in providers just customer service stuff and available funds?

Go with Vanguard because they have the lowest fees. You can look around, but I'm guessing Vanguard will always win out.

What's the interface like?  Like I have E*trade and set up another in Scottrade for lower fees but that interface sucks and I hate it.

I really don't know. I set up an automatic investment and never touch it. You really probably shouldn't know what it's like unless you are increasing your automatic investment.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 17, 2013, 10:18:22 AM
is there a way to compare roth IRA's from different providers to see which is the best? are all roths ira's basically the same and the differences in providers just customer service stuff and available funds?

Go with Vanguard because they have the lowest fees. You can look around, but I'm guessing Vanguard will always win out.

What's the interface like?  Like I have E*trade and set up another in Scottrade for lower fees but that interface sucks and I hate it.

vanguard has a great website.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 17, 2013, 10:21:12 AM
is there a way to compare roth IRA's from different providers to see which is the best? are all roths ira's basically the same and the differences in providers just customer service stuff and available funds?

Go with Vanguard because they have the lowest fees. You can look around, but I'm guessing Vanguard will always win out.

What's the interface like?  Like I have E*trade and set up another in Scottrade for lower fees but that interface sucks and I hate it.

vanguard has a great website.
:thumbsup:Some pretty good financial tools on that site.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 17, 2013, 10:25:58 AM
ben ji this is why we need to have meetings with your puppy. i have no idea what these dorks are talking about

I only have a rudimentary understanding of what they are saying. You really dont need to worry about bonds until you get closer to retirement age unless you are a very active investor.

You are young, put your money into growth/index funds and you will have 20+ years to figure out what they are talking about.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 17, 2013, 10:31:47 AM
If you invest in facebook let me know so I can slap you in the face for being an idiot
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 10:32:52 AM
For the index funders, do you guys sell off on like 180 day crossovers or just ride everything out?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 10:35:25 AM
For the index funders, do you guys sell off on like 180 day crossovers or just ride everything out?

do you watch cramer or some stupid crap?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 10:43:33 AM
For the index funders, do you guys sell off on like 180 day crossovers or just ride everything out?

do you watch cramer or some stupid crap?

"Hey, I'm going to post in an investment thread for advice and just completely ignore every rough ridin' investment advice previously posted".
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on April 17, 2013, 10:47:46 AM
For the index funders, do you guys sell off on like 180 day crossovers or just ride everything out?

do you watch cramer or some stupid crap?

"Hey, I'm going to post in an investment thread for advice and just completely ignore every rough ridin' investment advice previously posted".

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 17, 2013, 10:50:21 AM
Nothing like a financial discussion to bring out the prick in everyone.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 17, 2013, 10:51:30 AM
ben ji this is why we need to have meetings with your puppy. i have no idea what these dorks are talking about

I only have a rudimentary understanding of what they are saying. You really dont need to worry about bonds until you get closer to retirement age unless you are a very active investor.

You are young, put your money into growth/index funds and you will have 20+ years to figure out what they are talking about.

k cool thx. will post back in this thread when im like 50. hopefully youre not retired from being my personal finance director by then  :crossfingers:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 10:51:36 AM
For the index funders, do you guys sell off on like 180 day crossovers or just ride everything out?

do you watch cramer or some stupid crap?

No idea who cramer is.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 17, 2013, 11:01:56 AM
For the index funders, do you guys sell off on like 180 day crossovers or just ride everything out?

do you watch cramer or some stupid crap?

No idea who cramer is.

(http://www.nbcuniversalstore.com/img/product/resized/298/00011482-022298_catl_600.jpg?k=dff96bbd&pid=11482&s=catl&sn=nbcuniversalstore)

Watch TV, Get Rich!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on April 17, 2013, 11:02:23 AM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 11:04:09 AM
Anyway, the let it ride may be the easiest but it's not the best, FWIW.  Even a dolt could get a much better return with a small incremental time increase.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Whale on April 17, 2013, 11:05:29 AM
never buy whole life

If you have a spouse or kids, get a long term life policy while still young and healthy.*


* On The Whale's list of things to do for the year -- I've been going year to year with employer offered policy.  It's eventually going to get expensive  :frown:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 11:10:22 AM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 11:26:05 AM
Anyway, the let it ride may be the easiest but it's not the best, FWIW.  Even a dolt could get a much better return with a small incremental time increase.

sounds like you've got it all figured out. probably all your other dumbfuckery in this thread are the outliers.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 17, 2013, 11:36:50 AM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EMAWmeister on April 17, 2013, 11:38:20 AM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

Because every man alive tries to be Gordan Gekko when talking about investments.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/40/Gordon_Gekko.jpg/220px-Gordon_Gekko.jpg)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 11:42:23 AM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 11:48:21 AM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

-if you are smarter than everyone... make sure they know it...but make sure they don't know you are making sure they know it.
sd seems really insecure about the first part of that quote, really awesome at the second part, and just really rough ridin' terrible at the third part.  :dunno:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 12:02:11 PM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.

Congrats on getting hammered in 2008/9 then.   :thumbs:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 17, 2013, 01:03:18 PM
Let's talk student loans, and not those pud undergrad ones with 1.9% interest.  I am talking grown ass man grad school student loans with the terrible interest rates.  Is there any way to consolidate with a better rate or term?

What rate are you paying? Maybe you could refinance your house and use that money to pay off the student loans. It really kind of depends on your situation.
Planning on moving soon, so that hampers things a bit.  Paying 6.7% on a 10-yr term,  :barf:.

I would still take the time to talk to somebody at your bank. It is very possible that they would allow you to refinance and then just carry your mortgage over to the new property, as long as you buy a home that is worth at least as much as your current dwelling. I can't really give good advice without knowing all the details of your debt, but your bank absolutely can.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 17, 2013, 01:10:39 PM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.

Totally agree.  Never heard of anyone beating Vanguard.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 17, 2013, 01:13:09 PM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.

Totally agree.  Never heard of anyone beating Vanguard.

I just checked fidelity and they have some at .07...Minimum investment of 10k though.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 01:13:27 PM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.

Congrats on getting hammered in 2008/9 then.   :thumbs:

do you understand the concept of long term investing? Do you want to?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 01:16:25 PM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.

Totally agree.  Never heard of anyone beating Vanguard.

I just checked fidelity and they have some at .07...Minimum investment of 10k though.

which funds?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 17, 2013, 01:18:29 PM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.

Totally agree.  Never heard of anyone beating Vanguard.

I just checked fidelity and they have some at .07...Minimum investment of 10k though.

Ya, I think Vangaurd may be a minimum of $2K, don't recall.  Don't sweat it.  Just open an E-Trade account and select an index fund as your investment.  You'll be doing better than the vast majority of investors just by doing that.  You can make it a Roth or a traditional IRA, or whatever you want.

Half the battle is won as soon as you chose an index fund, don't beat yourself up on the difference between the providers.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 17, 2013, 01:18:46 PM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.

Totally agree.  Never heard of anyone beating Vanguard.

I just checked fidelity and they have some at .07...Minimum investment of 10k though.

which funds?

Spartan® Extended Market Index Fund - Fidelity Advantage Class


Morningstar Category  Mid-Cap Blend
Fund Inception  11/5/1997
NAV
4/16/2013 $43.94
Exp Ratio (Gross)
5/4/2012 0.07%
($0.70 per $1000)
Exp Ratio (Net)
5/4/2012 0.07%
($0.70 per $1000)
Redemption Fee  0.75%
Redemption Period  90 days
Minimum to Invest  $10,000.00
($10,000.00 for IRA) 
Turnover Rate
8/31/2012 10%
Net Assets ($M)
3/31/2013 $7,721.59 
12 Month Low-High
3/31/2013 $35.74 - $45.15

Chart Fund Price (NAV)
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 01:19:17 PM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.

Congrats on getting hammered in 2008/9 then.   :thumbs:

do you understand the concept of long term investing? Do you want to?

I'm just saying, index is for sure the lazy way to do it.  It certainly isn't the only way, nor is it the best way.  Someone who bought one share of S&P 500 "index fund" or whatever and held till today would be up 44%.  Follow some very basic rules and with very little effort (4 trades in 9 years) the same person would be up 102%.   It's still long term, it's still lazy, however it's much more effective.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 17, 2013, 01:20:33 PM
Redemption fee:  .75%   :sdeek:
Title: Re: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 01:24:09 PM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.

Congrats on getting hammered in 2008/9 then.   :thumbs:

do you understand the concept of long term investing? Do you want to?

I'm just saying, index is for sure the lazy way to do it.  It certainly isn't the only way, nor is it the best way.  Someone who bought one share of S&P 500 "index fund" or whatever and held till today would be up 44%.  Follow some very basic rules and with very little effort (4 trades in 9 years) the same person would be up 102%.   It's still long term, it's still lazy, however it's much more effective.

link?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 17, 2013, 01:26:34 PM
Also, just looked and the Vanguard 500 Index Admiral Fund ($10,000+) has an expense ratio of .05%.  So in about a year I am going to reallocate and move a chunk over there.  Pretty much the only things they have redemption fees on are their international stuff to discourage trading in and out of them.  Some funds they will lock you out of re-investing for a period of time (through their site, you could always buy/sell at will through a 3rd party but you are defeating most of the point because of transaction fees).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 17, 2013, 01:27:10 PM
Redemption fee:  .75%   :sdeek:

Didnt even see that. They do have others that are that low and dont show any redemption fee.

Spartan® 500 Index Fund - Fidelity Advantage Class

Morningstar Category  Large Blend
Fund Inception  2/17/1988
NAV
4/16/2013 $55.80
Exp Ratio (Gross)
1/1/2013 0.07%
($0.70 per $1000)
Exp Ratio (Net)
1/1/2013 0.05%
($0.50 per $1000)
Exp Cap (Dated) 5
1/1/2013 0.05%
($0.50 per $1000)
 
Minimum to Invest  $10,000.00
($10,000.00 for IRA) 
Turnover Rate
8/31/2012 3%
Net Assets ($M)
3/31/2013 $30,330.00 
12 Month Low-High
3/31/2013 $45.46 - $55.84

Chart Fund Price (NAV)
Title: Re: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 17, 2013, 01:28:50 PM
benji-

I just posted for vanguard the same rate.  It has to do with the amount you throw down.

emo-

even if you post a link, it is hindsight.  Timing the market for small time investors is probably not worth it just with fees attached to trades.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 01:31:53 PM
I'm sure there are hundreds of applicable links. 

Basic:  if you're holding your index fund, sell on (for this example) 180DMA crossver.  Riskier folks will also short at this time.  Cover on next 180DMA crossover.  Could buy back here, or if worried about getting shaken out then wait for 180DMA to turn positive and then buy.  Simple.

Follow those rules all the way back to before the Great Depression and you'll have like a bazillion more bitcoins than just buying and holding.  Plenty of room to make it waaaay more complicated if you're into that kind of stuff (used to be, not anymore).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 01:33:22 PM
invest in Apple when it goes public
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 17, 2013, 01:35:53 PM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.

Congrats on getting hammered in 2008/9 then.   :thumbs:

do you understand the concept of long term investing? Do you want to?

I'm just saying, index is for sure the lazy way to do it.  It certainly isn't the only way, nor is it the best way.  Someone who bought one share of S&P 500 "index fund" or whatever and held till today would be up 44%.  Follow some very basic rules and with very little effort (4 trades in 9 years) the same person would be up 102%.   It's still long term, it's still lazy, however it's much more effective.

Earning 7% on index funds every year would put you up about 84% over a 9 year time frame, without as much risk as trying to time the market.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 01:44:47 PM
Why do you guys keep bringing the fangs out in this thread? Yikes. This is the trust tree you guys. This is a safe place.

I don't want people that are looking for good advice to come here and get shitty advice.

Congrats on getting hammered in 2008/9 then.   :thumbs:

do you understand the concept of long term investing? Do you want to?

I'm just saying, index is for sure the lazy way to do it.  It certainly isn't the only way, nor is it the best way.  Someone who bought one share of S&P 500 "index fund" or whatever and held till today would be up 44%.  Follow some very basic rules and with very little effort (4 trades in 9 years) the same person would be up 102%.   It's still long term, it's still lazy, however it's much more effective.

Earning 7% on index funds every year would put you up about 84% over a 9 year time frame, without as much risk as trying to time the market.

Okay, do what you want obviously.  But this isn't timing anything.  You're not guessing about bottoms or tops (I mean I guess it could get to that but you don't have to if you don't want to).  You're just validating market trends with simple indicators.  If anything at our age (assume you're not near retirement) we can assume some elevated risk, although I disagree it's riskier.  I personally think it's riskier to hold.  Anyway, all we have to go off of is historical data.  It can't be refuted that buying and holding isn't the best way to do it, although I agree it's the easiest.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 17, 2013, 06:21:42 PM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 06:41:50 PM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

I'll admit that I looked into his "system" a little more and it's more promising than I expected. It would definitely be interesting with a lump sum investment. I don't think it would be as simple or easy to manage as he implies, though.

Not sure how it would compare to dollar cost averaging, either.
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Pete on April 17, 2013, 07:03:56 PM
I don't personally care to do any better than meet the index that fund managers use as their targets.


I do not enjoy investing anymore, I merely do it for security reasons.

I want to not rough ridin' have to think/worry about it.  Ask me about this 15 years ago and you'd get a different answer.

To each his own.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 07:28:16 PM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

I'll admit that I looked into his "system" a little more and it's more promising than I expected. It would definitely be interesting with a lump sum investment. I don't think it would be as simple or easy to manage as he implies, though.

Not sure how it would compare to dollar cost averaging, either.
link?  everything I've ever learned has taught me that market timing is a fool's game, but I'm always open to new ideas.
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 17, 2013, 07:35:40 PM
Market timing works well in hindsight
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 07:47:10 PM
Market timing works well in hindsight
right. that's always been my thought. but if there's something that's consistently worked over the last 60 or so years you can't really just dismiss it. I'm clearly :dubious: but I wouldn't mind looking at the data.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 17, 2013, 07:47:20 PM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 07:57:53 PM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.
this is a really good point as well.
Title: Re: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 17, 2013, 09:41:43 PM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

I'll admit that I looked into his "system" a little more and it's more promising than I expected. It would definitely be interesting with a lump sum investment. I don't think it would be as simple or easy to manage as he implies, though.

Not sure how it would compare to dollar cost averaging, either.
link?  everything I've ever learned has taught me that market timing is a fool's game, but I'm always open to new ideas.

 http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27460

I haven't really looked at it in much detail. But there are some good points made in this thread.
Title: Re: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 17, 2013, 10:37:41 PM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

I'll admit that I looked into his "system" a little more and it's more promising than I expected. It would definitely be interesting with a lump sum investment. I don't think it would be as simple or easy to manage as he implies, though.

Not sure how it would compare to dollar cost averaging, either.
link?  everything I've ever learned has taught me that market timing is a fool's game, but I'm always open to new ideas.

 http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27460

I haven't really looked at it in much detail. But there are some good points made in this thread.
well, it's certainly interesting, but I'm not sold.  it's essentially a great limitation on huge downside risk, but also a great limitation on huge upside reward.  in other words, it seems to be just an expensive (trading costs and taxes) way of being conservative...which is much more efficiently done with a well diversified portfolio.  it really breaks down in extended bull markets (like the one we've been in for a while now).  this article makes some interesting points re the theory of overcrowding in one strategy and also intervention by central banks.

http://www.thereformedbroker.com/2012/12/27/mark-hanna-on-why-the-200-day-signal-is-broken/ (http://www.thereformedbroker.com/2012/12/27/mark-hanna-on-why-the-200-day-signal-is-broken/)

the one thing that would be interesting is to see if you could find a way to sort of contra-invest in this strategy by predicting massive inflows and outflows.  really this is the problem with finding "tricks" or "schemes" to outperform an index...once somebody realizes they've found something that works, the speed of information rules it ineffective before you can really take advantage of it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on April 17, 2013, 10:41:32 PM
I am a very gifted investor.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 17, 2013, 10:43:58 PM
look people, you're smart, you can figure this out.  this is not specific to the method emo proposed which i know absolutely nothing about, just to not blindly indexing (not saying there is anything wrong with indexing.  saying that it is stupid to attack someone for not indexing).

it's just a question of logic.  all of these various systems for timing the market rely on the idea that you can improve your overall return if you are able to predict with some degree of accuracy when the market is more likely to go up or down.  whether the predictive variable is technical, fundamental, macro, seasonal, whatever, it doesn't matter.  they are all derived from past market performance.  that is to say that people come up with each and every one of these systems by looking at the past and pulling out some correlate or group of correlates that is associated with periods in which the market behaves as desired.

here is the important part.  it is absolutely true that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.  and it is possible, even likely, that some of the relationships that people claim to be predictive are spurious.  however, these correlations are all based on the exact same data that all of you indexing acolytes are proclaiming as the path to sure 7% annual returns.  it is absolutely logically inconsistent to profess confidence that future market returns will approximate those of the past while scoffing at correlations among market performance based on the same data.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 17, 2013, 10:47:39 PM
Why dont you nerds go start an Advanced Investing Thread and stop making new investors think it is all too complicated and they should just keep buying CD's.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 17, 2013, 10:50:25 PM
DAY TRADING.  HELLO.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 17, 2013, 11:23:13 PM
Why dont you nerds go start an Advanced Investing Thread and stop making new investors think it is all too complicated and they should just keep buying CD's.

I tend to agree the market timing/technical trading stuff is probably not a good topic in a thread that is titled "new to investing". You will be better off then 90 % of people if you start contributing to your 401k at a young age and stay the course using low cost index funds.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 17, 2013, 11:45:15 PM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.

4 rough ridin' trades from 2004 to today.  4. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 18, 2013, 01:11:31 AM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.

schwab etf's are lower in cost that vanguard funds.  etf's in general are lower than mutual funds.  prolly doesn't matter if you're 401k investing.  i know my 401k has crap for selection, i assume that's standard.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 18, 2013, 01:41:47 AM
look people, you're smart, you can figure this out.  this is not specific to the method emo proposed which i know absolutely nothing about, just to not blindly indexing (not saying there is anything wrong with indexing.  saying that it is stupid to attack someone for not indexing).

it's just a question of logic.  all of these various systems for timing the market rely on the idea that you can improve your overall return if you are able to predict with some degree of accuracy when the market is more likely to go up or down.  whether the predictive variable is technical, fundamental, macro, seasonal, whatever, it doesn't matter.  they are all derived from past market performance.  that is to say that people come up with each and every one of these systems by looking at the past and pulling out some correlate or group of correlates that is associated with periods in which the market behaves as desired.

here is the important part.  it is absolutely true that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.  and it is possible, even likely, that some of the relationships that people claim to be predictive are spurious.  however, these correlations are all based on the exact same data that all of you indexing acolytes are proclaiming as the path to sure 7% annual returns.  it is absolutely logically inconsistent to profess confidence that future market returns will approximate those of the past while scoffing at correlations among market performance based on the same data.

yeah. A shorter version of this post on bogleheads got me. I mean proponents of lazy investing do so based on past results, but quickly ignore or dismiss the past results of this particular system.
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 05:59:05 AM
Why dont you nerds go start an Advanced Investing Thread.

Considering merging a lot of this into the POS stock market thread that turned into that one dumbass touting penny stocks for the last two pages
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 18, 2013, 06:45:32 AM
look people, you're smart, you can figure this out.  this is not specific to the method emo proposed which i know absolutely nothing about, just to not blindly indexing (not saying there is anything wrong with indexing.  saying that it is stupid to attack someone for not indexing).

it's just a question of logic.  all of these various systems for timing the market rely on the idea that you can improve your overall return if you are able to predict with some degree of accuracy when the market is more likely to go up or down.  whether the predictive variable is technical, fundamental, macro, seasonal, whatever, it doesn't matter.  they are all derived from past market performance.  that is to say that people come up with each and every one of these systems by looking at the past and pulling out some correlate or group of correlates that is associated with periods in which the market behaves as desired.

here is the important part.  it is absolutely true that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.  and it is possible, even likely, that some of the relationships that people claim to be predictive are spurious.  however, these correlations are all based on the exact same data that all of you indexing acolytes are proclaiming as the path to sure 7% annual returns.  it is absolutely logically inconsistent to profess confidence that future market returns will approximate those of the past while scoffing at correlations among market performance based on the same data.

Look, dumbass, there have been several people that made spurious claims "guaranteeing" an annual return.  I never did that bullshit and simply said that making trades in a brokerage account when you have less than $10,000 (which many "new" investors would be starting with) is idiotic.  I listed the reasons.  Look at the thread title.  Your situation seems to be significantly different, you also are a pretty smart guy, but don't resort to making arguments that dismiss points that several of the advocates for a strategy (for people that probably aren't you) didn't make.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 18, 2013, 07:00:38 AM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.

4 rough ridin' trades from 2004 to today.  4.

Can you lay this out a little bit more?  You have me curios now.  I was picturing a much more actively traded system and the little bit I read from the link someone else provided seemed to describe that as well.

If there were just four trades since 2004 can you list them and what triggered them?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 18, 2013, 07:07:13 AM
When looking at index funds what is a good range for the expense ratio?

Vanguard should be the benchmark. They're at like 0.17%. I don't think anyone beats that and don't know why you would go anywhere else unless you had absolutely no choice.

schwab etf's are lower in cost that vanguard funds.  etf's in general are lower than mutual funds.  prolly doesn't matter if you're 401k investing.  i know my 401k has crap for selection, i assume that's standard.

Again ETF's, because they can be actively traded, require a brokerage account and have additional fees associated with them.  For first time/small investors it can be pretty close to eating away at the entire point of having a "lower cost."
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 18, 2013, 07:08:50 AM
it's pretty funny that people that think they're smart are attacking emo for daring to introduce the concept of outperforming the mean.  you people sound brainwashed.

the concepts he is talking about are 1) more risky than he is selling them as 2) not really compatible with what 90% of the people seeking advice in this thread have for their situation.  I mean I would guess that a decent percent are not to $10,000 in their retirement accounts yet.  The fees for a brokerage account and each trade will quickly eat in to the profits that they may or may not realize through emo's strategy.  Sure we are being a little simplistic, but read the thread title, know the intended audience and provide advice accordingly.  I mean there are probably lots of more profitable investments than index funds, but I don't really think there are better options for someone that does not have a ton of capital, does not have a ton of expertise and does not have a ton of time.

4 rough ridin' trades from 2004 to today.  4.

Look, I mean just explain the system you are referring to at this point so people can judge it on its own merits.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 18, 2013, 07:33:15 AM
DEATHLY SERIOUS FINANCE INDOCTRINATION THREAD
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on April 18, 2013, 08:37:23 AM
I didn't really know which thread to post this in since he posts in so many, but I'm pretty Emo is the type of person a lot of people would want to punch in the face.  I'm not saying the information he posts is wrong. I have no idea on that, but he strikes me as the type of person who would always have to add his two cents in a conversation to try and prove he is the smartest man in the room.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CNS on April 18, 2013, 08:45:38 AM
I like Emo.   :dunno:

Not a comment on his investing strategy, but def wouldn't want to punch him in the face.   
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on April 18, 2013, 08:49:08 AM
I like Emo.   :dunno:

Not a comment on his investing strategy, but def wouldn't want to punch him in the face.

I'm not saying I would want to punch him in the face either. Just saying he strikes me as the type that could rub people the wrong way.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on April 18, 2013, 08:51:09 AM
#teamEMO.  Or #temo (#teamo?), if you will. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 18, 2013, 08:52:17 AM
I didn't really know which thread to post this in since he posts in so many, but I'm pretty Emo is the type of person a lot of people would want to punch in the face.  I'm not saying the information he posts is wrong. I have no idea on that, but he strikes me as the type of person who would always have to add his two cents in a conversation to try and prove he is the smartest man in the room.

Hey, more than one way to skin a cat.  Just trying to offer a different perspective.  I think we can agree that there is no ONE way to do most anything.  This board has a crap ton of groupthink and a really strong antibody response to different perspectives.  I think generally speaking people here are helpful, and I try to be as well.  But our experiences are diverse and there will be differing opinions.  Also, I'm pretty good at taking a punch to the face.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 18, 2013, 08:55:37 AM
#temo  :emawkid:

still not on board with market timing.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: puniraptor on April 18, 2013, 09:01:58 AM
I have a traditional ira left over from a 401k rollover from an old job. can I squeeze this into my pending new roth somehow? do I just have to pay taxes on it like I would have?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 18, 2013, 09:02:27 AM
I didn't really know which thread to post this in since he posts in so many, but I'm pretty Emo is the type of person a lot of people would want to punch in the face.  I'm not saying the information he posts is wrong. I have no idea on that, but he strikes me as the type of person who would always have to add his two cents in a conversation to try and prove he is the smartest man in the room.

Hey, more than one way to skin a cat.  Just trying to offer a different perspective.  I think we can agree that there is no ONE way to do most anything.  This board has a crap ton of groupthink and a really strong antibody response to different perspectives.  I think generally speaking people here are helpful, and I try to be as well.  But our experiences are diverse and there will be differing opinions.  Also, I'm pretty good at taking a punch to the face.
You just had to throw in  your $0.02. Makes me so want to punch you in the face.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 18, 2013, 09:03:18 AM
I have a traditional ira left over from a 401k rollover from an old job. can I squeeze this into my pending new roth somehow? do I just have to pay taxes on it like I would have?
yes
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 18, 2013, 09:07:45 AM
I have a traditional ira left over from a 401k rollover from an old job. can I squeeze this into my pending new roth somehow? do I just have to pay taxes on it like I would have?
yes
I'm not sure what dobber was saying yes to, and I'm not really sure what your question is, but you can't merge traditional and roth ira's.  you can convert the ira into a roth ira, but you still don't want to merge them into the same account because there are separate rules with regard to roth conversions and roth contributions. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 18, 2013, 09:15:16 AM
I have a traditional ira left over from a 401k rollover from an old job. can I squeeze this into my pending new roth somehow? do I just have to pay taxes on it like I would have?
yes
I'm not sure what dobber was saying yes to, and I'm not really sure what your question is, but you can't merge traditional and roth ira's.  you can convert the ira into a roth ira, but you still don't want to merge them into the same account because there are separate rules with regard to roth conversions and roth contributions.
I guess I misunderstood the "pending new roth." I at first thought that he meant he wanted to move it and start a new Roth IRA. Rams is correct. If you have already started a Roth IRA, you will want to roll your traditional IRA into a new-different- IRA. You can have more than one. If the tax hit is too large, at one time you were able to convert it over a three year period. I am not certain if that is still an option. Could probably google it and see if that is an option.

Also, if you are wondering, the annual contribution limit is based on total contributions to Roth IRA's, so having multiple IRA's does not allow you to contribute more. However, the conversion from traditional to Roth does not count as an IRA contribution.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 18, 2013, 09:21:58 AM
#temo  :emawkid:

still not on board with market timing.

It's not market timing!  :shakesfist:  ( :D)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: puniraptor on April 18, 2013, 09:23:12 AM
Also, if you are wondering, the annual contribution limit is based on total contributions to Roth IRA's, so having multiple IRA's does not allow you to contribute more.

I was wondering this, thanks!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 18, 2013, 09:24:40 AM
that's why "the guy" is a stupid waste of time and detrimental to your investments in almost every situation. he has a clear conflict of interest because he gets a larger kickback from some products than others. because of this he will want you to purchase those products.

So people shouldn't use financial advisors?

sometimes they should. there are definitely good ones out there. the problem is that no matter how good they are their profession has built in conflicts of interest. plus, 98% of the population would do better just contributing to their 401(k), starting an IRA and investing in broad index funds with anything they have left over.

SD, thinking about using "a guy" and he says he is fee only and never receives third party commissions. I thought I liked/trusted him. Is he lying about not taking the commissions?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 18, 2013, 09:30:12 AM
jfc, believe it or not some financial advisors actually do things that are in your best interest
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on April 18, 2013, 09:30:39 AM
Also, if you are wondering, the annual contribution limit is based on total contributions to all Traditional and Roth IRA's, so having multiple IRA's does not allow you to contribute more.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 09:30:47 AM
jfc, believe it or not some financial advisors actually do things that are in your best interest

believe it or not most don't
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 18, 2013, 09:34:10 AM
Hmm. Maybe i don't understand the comissions. If he's not getting comissions like he says, and is paid a percentage of my portfolio, isn't his incentive to push me into garbage eliminated, because he's losing too. Of course only a portion of what I'm losing.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 09:36:52 AM
Hmm. Maybe i don't understand the comissions. If he's not getting comissions like he says, and is paid a percentage of my portfolio, isn't his incentive to push me into garbage eliminated, because he's losing too. Of course only a portion of what I'm losing.

no, I misread what you posted originally. what does he charge? who processes the transactions?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 18, 2013, 09:40:34 AM
Up to 3%. Is that reasonable?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 09:42:30 AM
Up to 3%. Is that reasonable?

well, it is if he can beat the market by over 3% long term. it's not if he can't. I don't know much about fee only financial advisors. it removes a lot of the conflict of interest though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 18, 2013, 09:44:47 AM
I work for an independant financial advisor and we charge 1% for our fee-based accts
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 09:45:19 AM
I work for an independant financial advisor and we charge 1% for our fee-based accts

welp, sounds like a ripoff daddy
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 18, 2013, 09:46:13 AM
Since we're on the subject, Edward Jones is a piece of crap company and no one should ever use them
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 09:47:47 AM
what if we real life match maker'd daddy claxton and ell into an investor relationship?  :D
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 18, 2013, 09:47:53 AM
#temo  :emawkid:

still not on board with market timing.

It's not market timing!  :shakesfist:  ( :D)

it is absolutely market timing.

(I think people were dismissing this system not just because he isn't likeable, but also because he didn't seem to know what he was talking about.)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 18, 2013, 09:50:32 AM
Since we're on the subject, Edward Jones is a piece of crap company and no one should ever use them

Apparently Edward Jones is making new reps go door to door again....really ups the prestige of your company.

I was talking with one of my buddies the other day about investing and he was super proud to say he uses edward jones. I asked him what he had with them(IRA, Brokerage, etc) and he had no idea, he just gives them a check every month because his dad told him to use them.  :angry:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 18, 2013, 09:51:30 AM
Doubt he'd beat the market by 3% but would probably beat what I'd do on my own by more than 3%. I have too much of my employer's stock (unavoidable) and I am horrible at getting out of it properly and timely.

Thanks for the info ERiI. I have something to negotiate with. If not, i'll get your card
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 09:53:23 AM
Doubt he'd beat the market by 3% but would probably beat what I'd do on my own by more than 3%.

Matching the market is easy. That's essentially what the best tips in this thread have pointed to imo.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 18, 2013, 09:54:58 AM
I started out w/ EJ after college, went door to door a little here in mhk for practice then did their training program at the home office in St Louis. They've made some drastic changes recently and have really gone down hill. They push their advisors to put everything in "advisory solution" (fee-based) and just do nothing. When SteveDave says financial advisors don't do what's in your best interest, he's talking about Edward Jones
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 10:03:53 AM
I started out w/ EJ after college, went door to door a little here in mhk for practice then did their training program at the home office in St Louis. They've made some drastic changes recently and have really gone down hill. They push their advisors to put everything in "advisory solution" (fee-based) and just do nothing. When SteveDave says financial advisors don't do what's in your best interest, he's talking about Edward Jones

I'm talking about all of the large brokerages (and probably small as well though I don't have 1st hand knowledge). I know there are good people in the industry (you and Rams I'm sure are great) but you have to admit that the majority of advisors out there are trying to sell either garbage product or garbage service.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 18, 2013, 10:05:57 AM
I started out w/ EJ after college, went door to door a little here in mhk for practice then did their training program at the home office in St Louis. They've made some drastic changes recently and have really gone down hill. They push their advisors to put everything in "advisory solution" (fee-based) and just do nothing. When SteveDave says financial advisors don't do what's in your best interest, he's talking about Edward Jones

I'm talking about all of the large brokerages (and probably small as well though I don't have 1st hand knowledge). I know there are good people in the industry (you and Rams I'm sure are great) but you have to admit that the majority of advisors out there are trying to sell either garbage product or garbage service.


I agree. Case in point, we just transfered a client's portfolio over and her previous advisor must have caught wind the client was going to transfer so she bought 18 different mutual funds with the cash that was sitting in the account 2 days before the transfer
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 10:09:11 AM
I started out w/ EJ after college, went door to door a little here in mhk for practice then did their training program at the home office in St Louis. They've made some drastic changes recently and have really gone down hill. They push their advisors to put everything in "advisory solution" (fee-based) and just do nothing. When SteveDave says financial advisors don't do what's in your best interest, he's talking about Edward Jones

I'm talking about all of the large brokerages (and probably small as well though I don't have 1st hand knowledge). I know there are good people in the industry (you and Rams I'm sure are great) but you have to admit that the majority of advisors out there are trying to sell either garbage product or garbage service.


I agree. Case in point, we just transfered a client's portfolio over and her previous advisor must have caught wind the client was going to transfer so she bought 18 different mutual funds with the cash that was sitting in the account 2 days before the transfer

 :sdeek:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on April 18, 2013, 10:11:40 AM
I don't know anything about the work he does, but my friend works for EJ in Wichita and he makes an absurd amount of money for his age.  I tend to think he does good work, but I'm a bit biased obviously since he is a good friend.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 18, 2013, 10:13:56 AM
#temo  :emawkid:

still not on board with market timing.

It's not market timing!  :shakesfist:  ( :D)

it is absolutely market timing.

(I think people were dismissing this system not just because he isn't likeable, but also because he didn't seem to know what he was talking about.)

I absolutely know what I'm talking about.  I went all OCD on this a while ago.  I'm having trouble explaining it and you guys understanding it because we don't have a common frame of reference and vocabulary.  Also the stimulus antibody response thing.  It's also text on a screen with no visual aids.  I'll add some VA, or just start a new thread on TA to prevent further mucking up this one.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 18, 2013, 10:14:38 AM
I started out w/ EJ after college, went door to door a little here in mhk for practice then did their training program at the home office in St Louis. They've made some drastic changes recently and have really gone down hill. They push their advisors to put everything in "advisory solution" (fee-based) and just do nothing. When SteveDave says financial advisors don't do what's in your best interest, he's talking about Edward Jones

I'm talking about all of the large brokerages (and probably small as well though I don't have 1st hand knowledge). I know there are good people in the industry (you and Rams I'm sure are great) but you have to admit that the majority of advisors out there are trying to sell either garbage product or garbage service.
yeah...and it's an overwhelmingly disgusting majority.  truth be told though, over half of those "advisors" are so stupid they actually think what they're doing is good for their client.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: puniraptor on April 18, 2013, 10:15:52 AM
are there index funds for penny stock markets?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 10:17:38 AM
are there index funds for penny stock markets?

haha, not yet
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 18, 2013, 10:24:19 AM
Look, dumbass, there have been several people that made spurious claims "guaranteeing" an annual return.  I never did that bullshit and simply said that making trades in a brokerage account when you have less than $10,000 (which many "new" investors would be starting with) is idiotic.  I listed the reasons.  Look at the thread title.  Your situation seems to be significantly different, you also are a pretty smart guy, but don't resort to making arguments that dismiss points that several of the advocates for a strategy (for people that probably aren't you) didn't make.

emo stated in his original post that with his strategy, he'd made a very limited number of trades over a moderate time frame.  you ignored his actual, real world results and attacked some strawman argument in your head, so i ignored your post and addressed the more relevant people misguidedly attacking emo.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 18, 2013, 10:35:18 AM
are there index funds for penny stock markets?

haha, not yet

The first guy who comes out with the pendex fund is going to be rich. I think that guy is going to be me. Does anybody have any suggestions on how I can get the ball rolling on this?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 10:37:33 AM
are there index funds for penny stock markets?

haha, not yet

The first guy who comes out with the pendex fund is going to be rich. I think that guy is going to be me. Does anybody have any suggestions on how I can get the ball rolling on this?

the fund will have to cost about 2 cents a share because a big part of penny stock investors enjoyment is the fact that they are so cheap (not relative to market cap or any other metric, just cash). you can throw whatever else you want in it and you will be good to go.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 18, 2013, 10:37:41 AM
Also, if you are wondering, the annual contribution limit is based on total contributions to all Traditional and Roth IRA's, so having multiple IRA's does not allow you to contribute more.
Isn't Gooch like one of the luckiest SOB's on the planet?
 :cheers:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 18, 2013, 10:41:16 AM
are there index funds for penny stock markets?

haha, not yet

The first guy who comes out with the pendex fund is going to be rich. I think that guy is going to be me. Does anybody have any suggestions on how I can get the ball rolling on this?

the fund will have to cost about 2 cents a share because a big part of penny stock investors enjoyment is the fact that they are so cheap (not relative to market cap or any other metric, just cash). you can throw whatever else you want in it and you will be good to go.

I will create the Pennies and Cents 500 and sell an index of that for $5 per share. Hopefully those penny investor guys can see the value of getting an index of 500 different stocks for $5. Just think of the growth potential.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 18, 2013, 10:43:14 AM
so my 401(k) is all in VFIFX and it's at around $15k after like 2.75 years with the company

I also have around $1200 in a schwab investor fund invested in SWDSX

am I doing anything stupid, and if so, what can I do that's smarter?  move the $1200 with schwab into a vanguard roth?  do roths have minimum investments?  my main thing is that represents a decent chunk of my current savings and I would like to keep it easily accessible in case I have a big financial emergency, so if a roth means I can't pull it out easily, I don't want to do that.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 10:43:51 AM
are there index funds for penny stock markets?

haha, not yet

The first guy who comes out with the pendex fund is going to be rich. I think that guy is going to be me. Does anybody have any suggestions on how I can get the ball rolling on this?

the fund will have to cost about 2 cents a share because a big part of penny stock investors enjoyment is the fact that they are so cheap (not relative to market cap or any other metric, just cash). you can throw whatever else you want in it and you will be good to go.

I will create the Pennies and Cents 500 and sell an index of that for $5 per share. Hopefully those penny investor guys can see the value of getting an index of 500 different stocks for $5. Just think of the growth potential.

it would have to go up to 10 to double their investment. won't work. if it's 2 cents it only has to go to 4 cents to double. think like a penny stock investor NK.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 18, 2013, 10:44:38 AM
Doubt he'd beat the market by 3% but would probably beat what I'd do on my own by more than 3%.

Matching the market is easy. That's essentially what the best tips in this thread have pointed to imo.
I could handle dumping all the cash into index funds. My problem is knowing when to sell the company stock for proper earnings and favorable tax treatment. Might be just my ignorance that scares me.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 18, 2013, 10:45:55 AM
Up to 3%. Is that reasonable?
not only is it unreasonable, I'm pretty sure it's illegal.  you have to be misunderstanding him.  I don't think you can legally charge over 2.5% per year for aum (not 100% sure on that though).  most RIA's I've seen set maximums around 2%.  the highest I've ever seen actually charged is 1.75% and you should never pay more than 1%.  I guess some strictly fee-only advisors charge based on total estate assets (house, land, etc.) so that might be the case.  I don't have a lot of experience with fee-only advisors.

but to answer your question, if he's advertising himself as fee-only then he absolutely cannot make commissions on anything he does unless he wants to lose his licenses and pay massive fines.  there are some good regulations in this industry.  not nearly enough, but there are some.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 18, 2013, 10:47:40 AM
so my 401(k) is all in VFIFX and it's at around $15k after like 2.75 years with the company

I also have around $1200 in a schwab investor fund invested in SWDSX

am I doing anything stupid, and if so, what can I do that's smarter?  move the $1200 with schwab into a vanguard roth?  do roths have minimum investments?  my main thing is that represents a decent chunk of my current savings and I would like to keep it easily accessible in case I have a big financial emergency, so if a roth means I can't pull it out easily, I don't want to do that.


My advice is to build up more of an emergency fund first so you dont have to worry about that $1200 then move that $1200 into a roth IRA and keep making contributions to the roth after maxing your employer match on the 401k.

But yes, in an emergency you can withdraw the principal of your roth IRA with no penalty.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 10:48:32 AM
Doubt he'd beat the market by 3% but would probably beat what I'd do on my own by more than 3%.

Matching the market is easy. That's essentially what the best tips in this thread have pointed to imo.
I could handle dumping all the cash into index funds. My problem is knowing when to sell the company stock for proper earnings and favorable tax treatment. Might be just my ignorance that scares me.

Why don't you just sell all of it whenever it becomes available to sell under the rules? like, set an annual date and unload however much you can.  or have you amassed a shitload of it? I'd talk to a CPA instead of some guy that's going to charge you 3% for the tax stuff.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 18, 2013, 10:53:43 AM
Doubt he'd beat the market by 3% but would probably beat what I'd do on my own by more than 3%.

Matching the market is easy. That's essentially what the best tips in this thread have pointed to imo.
I could handle dumping all the cash into index funds. My problem is knowing when to sell the company stock for proper earnings and favorable tax treatment. Might be just my ignorance that scares me.
wait, are you talking stock options or do you just have regular company stock?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 18, 2013, 11:18:29 AM
#temo  :emawkid:

still not on board with market timing.

It's not market timing!  :shakesfist:  ( :D)

it is absolutely market timing.

(I think people were dismissing this system not just because he isn't likeable, but also because he didn't seem to know what he was talking about.)

I absolutely know what I'm talking about.  I went all OCD on this a while ago.  I'm having trouble explaining it and you guys understanding it because we don't have a common frame of reference and vocabulary.  Also the stimulus antibody response thing.  It's also text on a screen with no visual aids.  I'll add some VA, or just start a new thread on TA to prevent further mucking up this one.

You also can't seem to come up with a good link explaining it. You also seem to just be making crap up and cherry picking dates to start and end with.

I'm guessing you're talking about doing something like this?

http://www.jobenjoy.com/using-simple-moving-averages-to-time-the-market/
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 18, 2013, 11:22:06 AM
#temo  :emawkid:

still not on board with market timing.

It's not market timing!  :shakesfist:  ( :D)

it is absolutely market timing.

(I think people were dismissing this system not just because he isn't likeable, but also because he didn't seem to know what he was talking about.)

I absolutely know what I'm talking about.  I went all OCD on this a while ago.  I'm having trouble explaining it and you guys understanding it because we don't have a common frame of reference and vocabulary.  Also the stimulus antibody response thing.  It's also text on a screen with no visual aids.  I'll add some VA, or just start a new thread on TA to prevent further mucking up this one.

You also can't seem to come up with a good link explaining it. You also seem to just be making crap up and cherry picking dates to start and end with.

I'm guessing you're talking about doing something like this?

http://www.jobenjoy.com/using-simple-moving-averages-to-time-the-market/

I didn't learn about it on the internet.  I'd hate to post a link I'm not familiar with and have you guys go all torch and pitchfork on it.  Willing to read a book?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 18, 2013, 11:39:14 AM
Is the book on Amazon?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Stupid Fitz on April 18, 2013, 12:41:28 PM
It amazes me how little people know about basic investing.

*Not talking about little people
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 18, 2013, 12:42:13 PM
It amazes me how little people know about basic investing.

*Not talking about little people

that's a good use of *
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Stupid Fitz on April 18, 2013, 01:10:56 PM
It amazes me how little people know about basic investing.

*Not talking about little people

that's a good use of *

 :D
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: tdaver on April 18, 2013, 02:46:44 PM
I started out w/ EJ after college, went door to door a little here in mhk for practice then did their training program at the home office in St Louis. They've made some drastic changes recently and have really gone down hill. They push their advisors to put everything in "advisory solution" (fee-based) and just do nothing. When SteveDave says financial advisors don't do what's in your best interest, he's talking about Edward Jones

An EJ guy has been bugging me to invest in "Advisory Solutions" for a couple years now.  There's an up front 4-5% fee and ~2% annually (1.35% EJ fee plus fund fees).

I'm glad I read this thread.  I feel much better about ignoring him all this time.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 18, 2013, 04:27:44 PM
I started out w/ EJ after college, went door to door a little here in mhk for practice then did their training program at the home office in St Louis. They've made some drastic changes recently and have really gone down hill. They push their advisors to put everything in "advisory solution" (fee-based) and just do nothing. When SteveDave says financial advisors don't do what's in your best interest, he's talking about Edward Jones

An EJ guy has been bugging me to invest in "Advisory Solutions" for a couple years now.  There's an up front 4-5% fee and ~2% annually (1.35% EJ fee plus fund fees).

I'm glad I read this thread.  I feel much better about ignoring him all this time.

Good lord that is a rip off.  It seems there is an EJ office on every corner in joco.  I gather they are one of the few full service places that goes after lower net worth type of clients.  The sad thing is I think they actually get quite a bit of that business around here. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 19, 2013, 08:28:02 AM
If you have $10k you can invest in Vanguard Admiral shares.

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/content/Funds/FundsAdmiralSharesOverviewJSP.jsp

They have lower expense ratios then the already low expense ratio Vanguard shares. I have an S&P index admiral fund (VFIAX) with them at 0.05%. If you just want to match the market it's pretty fool proof. And there are no purchase or redemption fees. Not really "new to investing" advice depending on what kind of money you are sitting on though.

EDIT: It's actually the fund Warren is whipping wall street's ass with right now:

http://blogs.barrons.com/focusonfunds/2013/01/25/buffett-wins-with-an-index-fund/?mod=yahoobarrons
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 19, 2013, 08:59:40 AM
Thanks for the tips, guys.  If 1% is the going rate for "a guy" (not edward jones of course) and the commissions are eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would mess with it themselves, unless you just enjoy it. Kinda seems like cutting your own hair though.

Also want to add that I would probably want to punch GC Hawk long before Emo if I met them both.  Plus, MIcat's character would not be complete w/o Emo
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: WonderMeal on April 19, 2013, 09:20:49 AM
Glad to hear my real-life friends Pete, SD, and Warren Buffet (known EMAW) tout the virtues of Index funds. No surprise they're  :kstategrad:.

This post is pretty DNR, so I'm going to bold the highlights.

For those of you new to investing--I'm a big proponent of using Charles Schwab. Their website gives you all the info you'll ever need to know,  but more importantly, their customer service is outstanding. Hold times are negligible, all customer service reps are happy, all call centers are based in Phoenix or Denver, and other banking products are free/outstanding.  Schwab really made a young WonderMeal feel comfortable with investing and answered all of my investor n00b questions, which is why I think they're great for new investors. (Note: I don't pay them for investing advice, since I'm just trying to match the market. I just ask them questions when I have old 401ks/403bs to roll over, etc.) I can't speak for other brokerage firms and I'm sure some others are great, but I've been with Schwab for almost a decade and don't see a need to see anyone else.

my 401 is in a vanguard target fund, vfifx. it's done really well for me, especially over the last year (13.44%).

That return is great, and 'grats, but I think the S&P500 grew by 16% in 2012. The expense ratio of the index fund SD and his Omaha friend use is .13% lower than VFIFX. However, the fact that target date funds become 'safer' near your retirement age makes the slightly higher expense ratio justifiable, and could be a good option for our real life friend KSC.

For investor n00bs who have been swayed by my Schwab sales pitch, I have had lots of success with SWPPX (tracks S&P 500, expense ratio of .08%) and SNFXX (tracks S&P plus the next-largest 500 companies, expense ratio of .29%). Almost every time I have tried to get cute and find mutual funds/stocks/ETFs to outperform these two guys, I have lost.

See you in a few years down at Del Boca Vista (ocean view), SD, Pete, and KSC!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 19, 2013, 09:25:54 AM
If you have $10k you can invest in Vanguard Admiral shares.

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/content/Funds/FundsAdmiralSharesOverviewJSP.jsp

They have lower expense ratios then the already low expense ratio Vanguard shares. I have an S&P index admiral fund (VFIAX) with them at 0.05%. If you just want to match the market it's pretty fool proof. And there are no purchase or redemption fees. Not really "new to investing" advice depending on what kind of money you are sitting on though.

EDIT: It's actually the fund Warren is whipping wall street's ass with right now:

http://blogs.barrons.com/focusonfunds/2013/01/25/buffett-wins-with-an-index-fund/?mod=yahoobarrons
that warren buffett bet was awesome...and fairly predictable. I'll never understand why seemingly intelligent (very wealthy successful people) continue to give money to hedge funds. a lot of them charge 2 and 20 which is rough ridin' criminal, but I heard on cnbc the other day that one of the most popular ones (can't remember the manager) charges 3 and 50!  :sdeek:  I mean I guess if they can legally steal from rich dumbfucks then good for them. :dunno:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 19, 2013, 09:29:30 AM
ben ji, im probably just going to invest most of my spare cash in gold and bury it in your backyard. cool?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 19, 2013, 09:31:54 AM
ben ji, im probably just going to invest most of my spare cash in gold and bury it in your backyard. cool?

Lady will just dig it all up and use the gold as chew toys but sure give it a shot.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 19, 2013, 09:53:17 AM
ben ji, im probably just going to invest most of my spare cash in gold and bury it in your backyard. cool?

Lady will just dig it all up and use the gold as chew toys but sure give it a shot.
LADY EATS GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!! :runaway: :runaway: :runaway:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 19, 2013, 09:55:03 AM
WonderMeal, great entrance. That was like the "Enter Sandman" of first posts in a thread
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 19, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
ben ji, im probably just going to invest most of my spare cash in gold and bury it in your backyard. cool?

Lady will just dig it all up and use the gold as chew toys but sure give it a shot.
LADY EATS GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!! :runaway: :runaway: :runaway:
You think I would let the neighbors see my dog with silver? Come on broooooo :kstategrad:
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 19, 2013, 10:08:50 AM
Thanks for the tips, guys.  If 1% is the going rate for "a guy" (not edward jones of course) and the commissions are eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would mess with it themselves, unless you just enjoy it. Kinda seems like cutting your own hair though.

are you serious? 1% is huge for doing something that isn't too hard. I mean I literally do nothing.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 19, 2013, 10:35:28 AM
Thanks for the tips, guys.  If 1% is the going rate for "a guy" (not edward jones of course) and the commissions are eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would mess with it themselves, unless you just enjoy it. Kinda seems like cutting your own hair though.

Also want to add that I would probably want to punch GC Hawk long before Emo if I met them both.  Plus, MIcat's character would not be complete w/o Emo

It takes as long to open an account and fund it with "a guy" as it does to open one on-line.  Once you've done that it takes about 10 seconds to buy one of the index funds people have recomended here.   Honestly it's probably more work to use a guy because you have to deal with him and his stupid assistant rather then just doing it yourself. 

There are quality financial advisors out there but you younger guys just starting out don't need one and the good ones don't want your business either.  You can always find one as you get older and your finances become more complex. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 19, 2013, 10:42:41 AM
Thanks for the tips, guys.  If 1% is the going rate for "a guy" (not edward jones of course) and the commissions are eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would mess with it themselves, unless you just enjoy it. Kinda seems like cutting your own hair though.

Also want to add that I would probably want to punch GC Hawk long before Emo if I met them both.  Plus, MIcat's character would not be complete w/o Emo

It takes as long to open an account and fund it with "a guy" as it does to open one on-line.  Once you've done that it takes about 10 seconds to buy one of the index funds people have recomended here.   Honestly it's probably more work to use a guy because you have to deal with him and his stupid assistant rather then just doing it yourself. 

There are quality financial advisors out there but you younger guys just starting out don't need one and the good ones don't want your business either.  You can always find one as you get older and your finances become more complex.

good advice, fwiw
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 19, 2013, 11:08:06 AM
For investor n00bs who have been swayed by my Schwab sales pitch, I have had lots of success with SWPPX (tracks S&P 500, expense ratio of .08%) and SNFXX (tracks S&P plus the next-largest 500 companies, expense ratio of .29%). Almost every time I have tried to get cute and find mutual funds/stocks/ETFs to outperform these two guys, I have lost.

I have about 1200 in Schwab in SWDSX but based on what you just said I am moving the majority of my shares over to SWPPX (all of them that can be moved without a redemption fee).  I have a checking/savings/investment account with Schwab and they have by far the best customer service of any financial company I have interacted with (which is most of them).

I sort of just picked SWDSX at random but this thread has completely sold me on indexes so I'm just going to move it all over there and set it and forget, then get a Roth in the next year or two when I have more available to invest (paying for a wedding right now).
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 19, 2013, 12:47:53 PM
Thanks for the tips, guys.  If 1% is the going rate for "a guy" (not edward jones of course) and the commissions are eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would mess with it themselves, unless you just enjoy it. Kinda seems like cutting your own hair though.

are you serious? 1% is huge for doing something that isn't too hard. I mean I literally do nothing.
If we're talking about a 10k account per thread parameters, the equivalent of picking up the bar tab doesn't seem 'huge' assuming 'the guy' providing something more than 'put it all in an index fund'.  I mean, if my barber pulled out a flow bee, i wouldn't go get my own flow bee; I'd get a new barber.

DISCLAIMER: before the fangs come out again, I'm here to GET info, not give advice. Don't take my statements as applicable in any way to your situation. I admit I'm clueless about this stuff.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 19, 2013, 01:19:11 PM
Thanks for the tips, guys.  If 1% is the going rate for "a guy" (not edward jones of course) and the commissions are eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would mess with it themselves, unless you just enjoy it. Kinda seems like cutting your own hair though.

are you serious? 1% is huge for doing something that isn't too hard. I mean I literally do nothing.
If we're talking about a 10k account per thread parameters, the equivalent of picking up the bar tab doesn't seem 'huge' assuming 'the guy' providing something more than 'put it all in an index fund'.  I mean, if my barber pulled out a flow bee, i wouldn't go get my own flow bee; I'd get a new barber.

DISCLAIMER: before the fangs come out again, I'm here to GET info, not give advice. Don't take my statements as applicable in any way to your situation. I admit I'm clueless about this stuff.

The problem with your barber comparison is that it's unlikely the advisor could show you a 1% improvement over an index or target retirement fund and will probably be more difficult and take up more of your time. other than that it's spot on. oh, and you didn't see my fangs, buddy. No siree. I only go "Central Texas" on folks when I'm angry.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on April 19, 2013, 01:30:42 PM
Never used a guy, so i have no idea what it would entail, but if it was more than 'here you go, send me a bill and wake me up when you have replaced my current income with what i just gave you" then I'd be less interested.

Wasn't referring to your fangs, but some others that were called out a few pages ago. Fangs are what you do; you're good at it.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 19, 2013, 01:43:27 PM
Thanks for the tips, guys.  If 1% is the going rate for "a guy" (not edward jones of course) and the commissions are eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would mess with it themselves, unless you just enjoy it. Kinda seems like cutting your own hair though.

are you serious? 1% is huge for doing something that isn't too hard. I mean I literally do nothing.
If we're talking about a 10k account per thread parameters, the equivalent of picking up the bar tab doesn't seem 'huge' assuming 'the guy' providing something more than 'put it all in an index fund'.  I mean, if my barber pulled out a flow bee, i wouldn't go get my own flow bee; I'd get a new barber.

DISCLAIMER: before the fangs come out again, I'm here to GET info, not give advice. Don't take my statements as applicable in any way to your situation. I admit I'm clueless about this stuff.

1% a year compunded over a number of years can add up to a lot of money.  It's unlikely the professional will be able to get you back that extra 1%.  Odds are if anything he's going to lose you money on top of that by putting you in actively managed funds that underperform the index and have higher fees.   See the previous post referencing the bet that Warren Buffett made against the hedge fund index.  These large hedge funds full of Ivy league MBA's are getting trounced by an index fund that anyone can buy for next to nothing. 

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 19, 2013, 01:58:37 PM
Thanks for the tips, guys.  If 1% is the going rate for "a guy" (not edward jones of course) and the commissions are eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would mess with it themselves, unless you just enjoy it. Kinda seems like cutting your own hair though.

are you serious? 1% is huge for doing something that isn't too hard. I mean I literally do nothing.
If we're talking about a 10k account per thread parameters, the equivalent of picking up the bar tab doesn't seem 'huge' assuming 'the guy' providing something more than 'put it all in an index fund'.  I mean, if my barber pulled out a flow bee, i wouldn't go get my own flow bee; I'd get a new barber.

DISCLAIMER: before the fangs come out again, I'm here to GET info, not give advice. Don't take my statements as applicable in any way to your situation. I admit I'm clueless about this stuff.

1% a year compunded over a number of years can add up to a lot of money.  It's unlikely the professional will be able to get you back that extra 1%.  Odds are if anything he's going to lose you money on top of that by putting you in actively managed funds that underperform the index and have higher fees.   See the previous post referencing the bet that Warren Buffett made against the hedge fund index.  These large hedge funds full of Ivy league MBA's are getting trounced by an index fund that anyone can buy for next to nothing. 



Yeah, the 1% is huge if you're investing for retirement (which any small time investor should be doing).

http://www.dinkytown.net/java/RegularIRA.html

A quick calculation shows $114k @7% vs. $81k @ 6%.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: WonderMeal on April 20, 2013, 01:59:10 PM
WonderMeal, great entrance.

 :cheers:  (Also, I have loved 'Tay since the second he stepped on campus. So  :cheers: x2.)

I think the best financial advice I could give to beginners is: don't have kids until later in life. I mean, kids are great and whatever, but they make the following things more expensive:

If you have kids young, that severely limits the advantages of compounding interest 40 years down the road. So save that cash now.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 20, 2013, 02:03:37 PM
If you have kids young, that severely limits the advantages of compounding interest 40 years down the road. So save that cash now.

This is something you don't hear. I've never considered it honestly. Great post.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 20, 2013, 02:10:16 PM
Or just don't have kids
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 20, 2013, 02:11:20 PM
Or just don't have kids

obviously, but I've not heard that particular argument for having kids late.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 20, 2013, 11:51:56 PM
I'll probably get divorced about the same time I retire. Like, if I don't get to get away from my (ex) wife for 40 hours a week anymore I don't think I'll be able to be married.

Might have to get a special prenup for that one?
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 21, 2013, 08:55:06 AM
Well, don't marry someone awful would be my advice
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: reidrolled on April 21, 2013, 10:49:38 AM
#temo  :emawkid:

still not on board with market timing.

It's not market timing!  :shakesfist:  ( :D)

it is absolutely market timing.

(I think people were dismissing this system not just because he isn't likeable, but also because he didn't seem to know what he was talking about.)

I absolutely know what I'm talking about.  I went all OCD on this a while ago.  I'm having trouble explaining it and you guys understanding it because we don't have a common frame of reference and vocabulary.  Also the stimulus antibody response thing.  It's also text on a screen with no visual aids.  I'll add some VA, or just start a new thread on TA to prevent further mucking up this one.

You also can't seem to come up with a good link explaining it. You also seem to just be making crap up and cherry picking dates to start and end with.

I'm guessing you're talking about doing something like this?

http://www.jobenjoy.com/using-simple-moving-averages-to-time-the-market/

I imagine this is what he is talking about.... more specifically the dual 50 and 200 day moving averages. This is something that I have been very seriously considering doing with the SPY (S&P index). Essentially you are using moving averages as market indicators as to when you want to go short or long, based on the shorter term average crossing above or below the longer term.

Where I find value is that this can allow you to make money on the downswings in the market as well, or at least not lose money.

tradingview.com is a very neat website that lets you customize charts and add whatever indicators you feel are relevant. i use the 20, 50, and 200 day moving average along with a few others that have been surprisingly good predictors over the past  couple of months that I have been following it.

Edit: before someone tees off on this, I am not doing this as a retirement strategy. Just something that I find interesting and want to get a feel for on more of a macro scale before I get into more specific investments.
Edit to my edit: I am not going to use this exclusively on a specific stock pick, I just think it is very important to have a technical idea of what the stock is doing before taking a position in it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 21, 2013, 11:06:16 AM
Warren laughs at gold "investors"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-17/buffett-mocking-gold-sidesteps-slump-as-he-bets-on-stocks.html
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 21, 2013, 11:20:13 AM
Warren laughs at gold "investors"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-17/buffett-mocking-gold-sidesteps-slump-as-he-bets-on-stocks.html

he's always hated gold.  I always use this buffett quote when clients come to me wanting to buy gold:

Quote
[Gold] gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head.

I'll never trust/understand anything with an inverted supply curve.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 21, 2013, 09:39:54 PM
before someone tees off on this...

you shouldn't feel like you have to justify yourself for trying to improve the return on your investment.  the posters that teed off on emo were being dumbasses.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 21, 2013, 10:00:47 PM
before someone tees off on this...

you shouldn't feel like you have to justify yourself for trying to improve the return on your investment.  the posters that teed off on emo were being dumbasses.

Bullshit. Reidrolled was being completely reasonable and went into far more detail than emo. Emo was being a dumbass and still doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 21, 2013, 10:45:58 PM
Bullshit. Reidrolled was being completely reasonable and went into far more detail than emo. Emo was being a dumbass and still doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

i didn't say anything about whether emo knew what he was talking about or not.  i do know that the posters that attacked him didn't know what the eff they were talking about.

to your credit, you looked for additional information on the issue, figured out you'd been a dumbass and admitted as much.  i don't think any of the other posters did that.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 21, 2013, 10:59:39 PM
no one attacked him.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 21, 2013, 11:13:30 PM
no one attacked him.

they did though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 09:32:18 AM
before someone tees off on this...

you shouldn't feel like you have to justify yourself for trying to improve the return on your investment.  the posters that teed off on emo were being dumbasses.

Bullshit. Reidrolled was being completely reasonable and went into far more detail than emo. Emo was being a dumbass and still doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Jesus man, get some perspective.  Impressing you or anyone else on here isn't a priority.  You come across as a reasonably intelligent person.  Using that perceived intelligence look at my post and do some basic research.  It's the hallmark of one of the two core philosophies of investing. It shouldn't be that hard to find information.  There are literally hundreds of books written about the subject.  But you're going to have to open your mind and put aside your bitterness over people odd/bold enough to expect to beat the market.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 22, 2013, 09:43:11 AM
I'd already opened my mind. I asked you about the specific market timing method YOU were talking about and you just replied with vague answers and a heavy dose of dickishness.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 09:44:33 AM
It was counter dickishness.  But like I said use the internet thingy and discover for yourself.  It will be more rewarding that way.  There's also like a hundred different opinions on it so some might suit you more than others.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 22, 2013, 09:54:37 AM
It was counter dickishness.  But like I said use the internet thingy and discover for yourself.  It will be more rewarding that way.  There's also like a hundred different opinions on it so some might suit you more than others.

I was trying to use the "internet thingy" to learn more about the methods a real life person supposedly used successfully.  I thought that may have been more valuable/rewarding.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 09:57:59 AM
It was counter dickishness.  But like I said use the internet thingy and discover for yourself.  It will be more rewarding that way.  There's also like a hundred different opinions on it so some might suit you more than others.

you should have used that internet thingy to figure out what a Roth was before you started giving bad advice on it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 09:59:58 AM
It was counter dickishness.  But like I said use the internet thingy and discover for yourself.  It will be more rewarding that way.  There's also like a hundred different opinions on it so some might suit you more than others.

you should have used that internet thingy to figure out what a Roth was before you started giving bad advice on it.

We were saying the same thing dumbass.  Go back and read. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 10:00:53 AM
It was counter dickishness.  But like I said use the internet thingy and discover for yourself.  It will be more rewarding that way.  There's also like a hundred different opinions on it so some might suit you more than others.

you should have used that internet thingy to figure out what a Roth was before you started giving bad advice on it.

We were saying the same thing dumbass.  Go back and read.

I contribute enough to my 401k to max out the employer match, and then I use the rest of my spare money purchasing stocks.

you are pissing away some good tax breaks broseph

Depends.  Probably a safe assumption tax rates when we retire will be higher.  Better to pay the income tax up front and not pay it later.  At least that's my way of looking at it.

it doesn't depend at all. he can either put it in a roth or contribute more than his employers match to his 401k until he hits his personal max. either way it's a tax break over buying stocks with after tax money and getting hit again when he sells them.

Well a Roth is an after tax contribution.  So no tax break there.  You might be thinking of a traditional IRA?

Agree on the 401k, although mine won't let me purchase anything other than the two dozen funds they offer (Prudential).

I'm not 100% certain you understand how a Roth works (I'm actually 100% certain you don't).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 10:11:09 AM
Sit down sd because I'm about to blow your mind:

Roth IRA:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements
Trading account:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 10:12:42 AM
Sit down sd because I'm about to blow your mind:

Roth IRA:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements
Trading account:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements

yeah, you may want to use that internet thingy to research the tax advantages of a roth
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 10:14:16 AM
Sit down sd because I'm about to blow your mind:

Roth IRA:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements
Trading account:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements

yeah, you may want to use that internet thingy to research the tax advantages of a roth

Only a dumbass would complain about paying capital gains.  Like that's the whole point of investing.  Seems like you'd be super interested to write off the losses, too.   :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 10:15:42 AM
Sit down sd because I'm about to blow your mind:

Roth IRA:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements
Trading account:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements

yeah, you may want to use that internet thingy to research the tax advantages of a roth

Only a dumbass would complain about paying capital gains.  Like that's the whole point of investing.  Seems like you'd be super interested to write off the losses, too.   :lol:

congrats on finally using that internet thingy to find out what a Roth is
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 10:18:02 AM
Sit down sd because I'm about to blow your mind:

Roth IRA:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements
Trading account:  funded by after-tax contributions; no income tax on disbursements

yeah, you may want to use that internet thingy to research the tax advantages of a roth

Only a dumbass would complain about paying capital gains.  Like that's the whole point of investing.  Seems like you'd be super interested to write off the losses, too.   :lol:

congrats on finally using that internet thingy to find out what a Roth is

Have known that all along.  Here's a tip sd:  just keep everything in that index fund and you won't have to worry about paying much capital gains.  :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 22, 2013, 10:26:39 AM
sounds like Emo could use ben ji's expertise
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 22, 2013, 12:53:45 PM
enough with the market timing fight.  anyone invest in individual stocks?  to me, that's the fun part.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 01:05:15 PM
anyone invest in individual stocks?  to me, that's the fun part.

I used to but not anymore.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on April 22, 2013, 01:07:50 PM
enough with the market timing fight.  anyone invest in individual stocks?  to me, that's the fun part.

I have a few. Mostly just for my own enjoyment, not really a way to strike it rich or anything unless I get lucky.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Stevesie60 on April 22, 2013, 01:09:55 PM
I'm not going to go through this thread, but someone should have mentioned by now to invest heavily in solar power systems by now. Just wanted to confirm that.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 01:41:24 PM
enough with the market timing fight.  anyone invest in individual stocks?  to me, that's the fun part.

Of course.  I think TA mostly applies to individual stocks and that's most of my experience, however did use the principles to convert 401k funds to GI fund and back in 08/09.

I don't like the stuff that gets lots of news coverage (like AAPL or FB).  I like a certain market cap and up and also like some amount of active trading because I like sell orders processed quickly.  Other than that I'm open to just about anything.  Almost everything I do is a stop/limit kind of order.  Everything I hold has a corresponding conditional sell order.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 22, 2013, 01:58:28 PM
enough with the market timing fight.  anyone invest in individual stocks?  to me, that's the fun part.

I have a few. Mostly just for my own enjoyment, not really a way to strike it rich or anything unless I get lucky.

This.

Currently own some YRC stock, Bought in over the summer for around $6.45 per share and it is currently at 6.75. Was up over 8.00 a share a couple weeks ago but has had some crazy fluctuations both good and bad.

Back in 2010 I read an atricle about Macau overtaking Vegas and the worldwide gambling capital. Looked up the companies that had casino's based in Macaua and its basically just Wynn and Las Vegas Sands. Was going to buy some LVS stock for $28 but I was a new grad and didnt have any money. LVS us currently over $50.  :(
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 22, 2013, 02:04:23 PM
I used to but not anymore.

why did you get out?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 22, 2013, 02:05:55 PM
Almost everything I do is a stop/limit kind of order.

me too, but i think it's just sort of an emotional crutch, prolly makes no real difference.

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 02:11:58 PM
I used to but not anymore.

why did you get out?

wasn't worth my time spent speculating
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 02:15:25 PM
Almost everything I do is a stop/limit kind of order.

me too, but i think it's just sort of an emotional crutch, prolly makes no real difference.

I don't think so.  I had some uranium miners when the tsunami hit Japan and those things tanked.  Saved my ass big time.  Only has to work once for you to use it every time.

Coincidentally I used to be into buying/shorting YRCW and EK back in the day.  They were such volatile movers it was fun.  Got really OCD on it for a while. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 22, 2013, 04:55:42 PM
wasn't worth my time spent speculating

if you're buying and holding, i don't see how the difference in time is terribly significant.  maybe you're super thorough with your research, but still.
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 05:04:29 PM
Do you buy and hold individual stocks sys? What's the average time you hold one?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 22, 2013, 05:09:07 PM
Do you buy and hold individual stocks sys? What's the average time you hold one?

usually until the reason i bought changes or my premise appears to have been falsified.  i have no idea what the mean time has been.  i've also sold a few things because i needed money or to reallocate.

i'd probably do better if i got out of stocks in times of market duress, but i've never done that.  maybe at some point in the future i'll try to incorporate some market timing.

Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 05:21:42 PM
Well, you wouldn't be the first person to try. Not really investing though. Godspeed.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 22, 2013, 05:26:40 PM
Not really investing though.

 :confused:
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 22, 2013, 05:39:38 PM
Not really investing though.

 :confused:

It's speculation.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 22, 2013, 05:43:44 PM
Not really investing though.

 :confused:

It's speculation.

 :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 22, 2013, 11:20:28 PM
Trading is certainly different than investing.  Mechanics of them are pretty similar though, IMO. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 22, 2013, 11:29:32 PM
Not really investing though.

 :confused:

It's speculation.

 :lol:

A true Omaha man if I've ever seen one.  I love you steve dave.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 23, 2013, 08:15:15 AM
love you too friend
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 23, 2013, 08:36:39 AM
Guys...  :facepalm:

I bought a mutual fund last night from my Roth IRA. Turns out it's NOT a good idea to just let the money sit there in a money market. Thanks for nothing, ben ji  :shakesfist:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 23, 2013, 08:44:55 AM
Turns out it's NOT a good idea to just let the money sit there in a money market. Thanks for nothing, ben ji  :shakesfist:

I think sys and emo may argue with you on this
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 23, 2013, 08:50:35 AM
Turns out it's NOT a good idea to just let the money sit there in a money market. Thanks for nothing, ben ji  :shakesfist:

I think sys and emo may argue with you on this

oh man burn  :lol: im totally laughing at this now because i understand the difference. good one, steve dave.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 23, 2013, 09:12:14 AM
Turns out it's NOT a good idea to just let the money sit there in a money market. Thanks for nothing, ben ji  :shakesfist:

I think sys and emo may argue with you on this

If, 1) you're an index funder, and 2) the market is in a downward tend, MM or GI funds are fine.  I short the market in those times though.  You can make money as long as the market is moving decidedly in one direction, which it usually is. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 23, 2013, 09:26:49 AM
KSC, have you thought of moving to Mexico?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12827752
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 23, 2013, 09:28:33 AM
you guys wanna play the guessing game on which mutual fund i bought? start with what you would do first and then work your way down to really rough ridin' stupid. ill let you know when you guess right. ok, go.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 23, 2013, 09:29:45 AM
Which institution? 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 23, 2013, 09:32:34 AM
Which institution?

whats with all the questions bro? just start guessing. fidelity...
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 23, 2013, 09:51:25 AM
JANIX
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on April 23, 2013, 09:54:02 AM
JANIX

I pick this. Ben Ji is your financial advisor after all.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 23, 2013, 10:01:00 AM
JANIX

nope. and the one im in has a short-term leaving penalty thingy so doesnt sound like im getting into this anytime soon
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 23, 2013, 11:03:47 AM
JANIX

nope. and the one im in has a short-term leaving penalty thingy so doesnt sound like im getting into this anytime soon

Spartan® Extended Market Index Fund - Investor Class
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 23, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
JANIX

nope. and the one im in has a short-term leaving penalty thingy so doesnt sound like im getting into this anytime soon

Spartan® Extended Market Index Fund - Investor Class

 :lol: nope. its a pretty safe one, very boring actually. i wanted to do a biotech one that was kicking ass but thought better of it...
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 23, 2013, 11:26:57 AM
JANIX

nope. and the one im in has a short-term leaving penalty thingy so doesnt sound like im getting into this anytime soon

Spartan® Extended Market Index Fund - Investor Class

 :lol: nope. its a pretty safe one, very boring actually. i wanted to do a biotech one that was kicking ass but thought better of it...

Just saw that one today but then I realized I know absolutely nothing about biotech.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 23, 2013, 11:38:33 AM
Just saw that one today but then I realized I know absolutely nothing about biotech.

Yeah, was up like 27% or something YTD. Biotech is pretty volatile so to start I have my money in small blend and mid-cap funds... I'll get more aggessive later.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 23, 2013, 12:17:02 PM
Currently holding both BIIB and GILD.  :gocho:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 23, 2013, 12:19:50 PM
I guess I should sell my Krispy Kreme stock since I don't know crap bout makin' donuts.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 24, 2013, 09:18:24 AM
The PBS Frontline last night was all about 401k's and retirement.

They basically said everything we said in this thread about shitty 401k choices and how high expense ratio's cheat you out of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the life of your investment. Also pointed out that alot of people are idiots who dont save anything or dip into their 401k's multiple times throughout their lives then bitch when they have to work longer because they dont have any savings left.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 24, 2013, 09:21:18 AM
The PBS Frontline last night was all about 401k's and retirement.

They basically said everything we said in this thread about shitty 401k choices and how high expense ratio's cheat you out of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the life of your investment. Also pointed out that alot of people are idiots who dont save anything or dip into their 401k's multiple times throughout their lives then bitch when they have to work longer because they dont have any savings left.

yeah. a lot of people are idiots.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on April 24, 2013, 09:34:59 AM
The PBS Frontline last night was all about 401k's and retirement.

They basically said everything we said in this thread about shitty 401k choices and how high expense ratio's cheat you out of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the life of your investment. Also pointed out that alot of people are idiots who dont save anything or dip into their 401k's multiple times throughout their lives then bitch when they have to work longer because they dont have any savings left.

yeah. a lot of people are idiots.

I've learned most people are idiots.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 24, 2013, 09:40:41 AM
Saw a FB post that said if you have no debt and $10 in our pocket then you're richer than 25% of Americans.   :sdeek:

So honestly if you're even doing 401k or any retirement planning or saving you're ahead of the curve.  I'd wager that the majority of friends my age don't even start thinking about this stuff until they start having kids.  Kinda scary.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 24, 2013, 09:45:33 AM
Almost everything I do is a stop/limit kind of order.

me too, but i think it's just sort of an emotional crutch, prolly makes no real difference.

I don't think so.  I had some uranium miners when the tsunami hit Japan and those things tanked.  Saved my ass big time.  Only has to work once for you to use it every time.

Coincidentally I used to be into buying/shorting YRCW and EK back in the day.  They were such volatile movers it was fun.  Got really OCD on it for a while.

Stops are good and all but they can't fully protect you. If the market gaps down a bunch at the open the stop isn't going to help you.  A lot of young traders think they are assued of getting out at their stop price and that isn't the case. 

I learned this lesson the hard way a couple of times back in the day.  One of the reasons I got out of activley trading stocks.  The big news that really moves a stock often doesn't happen during the neat little hours that the markets are open. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 24, 2013, 09:46:00 AM
Saw a FB post that said if you have no debt and $10 in our pocket then you're richer than 25% of Americans.   :sdeek:

So honestly if you're even doing 401k or any retirement planning or saving you're ahead of the curve.  I'd wager that the majority of friends my age don't even start thinking about this stuff until they start having kids.  Kinda scary.

I've got a buddy who's graduated a couple of years ago(masters in ME), just the other day he mentioned to me that he was going to start contributing to his 401k. I looked at him like  :surprised: :facepalm: :angry: and told him "Yeah, thats PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA"
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 24, 2013, 10:16:13 AM
Almost everything I do is a stop/limit kind of order.

me too, but i think it's just sort of an emotional crutch, prolly makes no real difference.

I don't think so.  I had some uranium miners when the tsunami hit Japan and those things tanked.  Saved my ass big time.  Only has to work once for you to use it every time.

Coincidentally I used to be into buying/shorting YRCW and EK back in the day.  They were such volatile movers it was fun.  Got really OCD on it for a while.

Stops are good and all but they can't fully protect you. If the market gaps down a bunch at the open the stop isn't going to help you.  A lot of young traders think they are assued of getting out at their stop price and that isn't the case. 

I learned this lesson the hard way a couple of times back in the day.  One of the reasons I got out of activley trading stocks.  The big news that really moves a stock often doesn't happen during the neat little hours that the markets are open.

Well yes that's true, gap downs are a bitch.  But for the most part when something gaps down I want out anyway.  You can always protect yourself against gap downs with buy/limit orders at prices where you're a buyer.  I don't do that, though.  FWIW, setting stops is much easier than watching the market 24/7.  It's the best option for working stiffs like myself.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: LilSmokyMcIntyre on April 24, 2013, 12:00:03 PM
I just read the first few pages if this and realized the finance 450 should be a requirement to graduate. These are simple life skills that all people should know.
Use your money in this order. If you have more, move to the next. Its pretty easy.

401k to the match and no more
Max out Roth IRA
If you get a Stock discount option use it
Speculative investing

If you are actually using info in this thread then only invest in index funds. If you think you can do better than approx 8% annually, speculate with stocks. Never speculate with stocks $ you can't afford to lose bec you can. That's all you need to know.

Retire in early 50s regardless of your income level.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 24, 2013, 12:35:48 PM
Better than 25% of Americans  :jerk:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 24, 2013, 01:04:28 PM
I don't think people that don't know about this stuff are idiots. Just not very educated. Our schools are terrible at educating people about retirement planning, and so are the corporations offering 401k's to their employees and the corporations administering 401k's for employers.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 24, 2013, 01:09:28 PM
Better than 25% of Americans  :jerk:

 :confused:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 24, 2013, 01:15:27 PM
I don't think people that don't know about this stuff are idiots. Just not very educated. Our schools are terrible at educating people about retirement planning, and so are the corporations offering 401k's to their employees and the corporations administering 401k's for employers.

Thats why gE is here to fill in the gaps!

But yes I agree with you. I took Finance classes at KSU but still had no real idea about how retirement investments worked in practice. I graduated, picked some funds from my 401k that looked like they had good returns and started contributing.

It wasn't until about a year ago that I started actually researching Roth IRA's/Index Funds/Exp ratio's etc and noticed that one of the 401k funds I was in had a 1.96 Exp ratio  :surprised:

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on April 24, 2013, 01:17:27 PM
Pro-tip:  invest with JW and Associates.  You're welcome. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 24, 2013, 01:21:52 PM
I don't think people that don't know about this stuff are idiots. Just not very educated. Our schools are terrible at educating people about retirement planning, and so are the corporations offering 401k's to their employees and the corporations administering 401k's for employers.
it's mind boggling to me that personal finance isn't part of every high school curriculum.  I can't tell you how many doctors and other "well educated" people I've come across that know absolutely nothing about how money works.  but if you think about it, if you do pre-med in college and then go onto med school you can complete your entire education without having ever taken a single course in basic finance. it's inexcusable.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 24, 2013, 01:23:53 PM
I don't think people that don't know about this stuff are idiots. Just not very educated. Our schools are terrible at educating people about retirement planning, and so are the corporations offering 401k's to their employees and the corporations administering 401k's for employers.
it's mind boggling to me that personal finance isn't part of every high school curriculum.  I can't tell you how many doctors and other "well educated" people I've come across that know absolutely nothing about how money works.  but if you think about it, if you do pre-med in college and then go onto med school you can complete your entire education without having ever taken a single course in basic finance. it's inexcusable.

that's kind of my point. I never took a personal finance class. I also didn't invest in my 401k at my first job because I really didn't know any better. It's insanely basic, but hard to know about unless you do something like seek out the best way to invest your money.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 24, 2013, 01:28:49 PM
I took "Intro to family finances" as a random elective my senior year.

Not once did we cover anything about 401k's or retirement saving besides the basic Time Value of Money equations which was about 1-2 weeks of class.

Spent most of the time going over how to make a budget and how CC's are bad.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 24, 2013, 01:29:29 PM
I took "Intro to family finances" as a random elective my senior year.

Not once did we cover anything about 401k's or retirement saving besides the basic Time Value of Money equations which was about 1-2 weeks of class.

Spent most of the time going over how to make a budget and how CC's are bad.

my god
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on April 24, 2013, 01:33:12 PM
I just read the first few pages if this and realized the finance 450 should be a requirement to graduate. These are simple life skills that all people should know.
Use your money in this order. If you have more, move to the next. Its pretty easy.

401k to the match and no more
Max out Roth IRA
If you get a Stock discount option use it
Speculative investing

If you are actually using info in this thread then only invest in index funds. If you think you can do better than approx 8% annually, speculate with stocks. Never speculate with stocks $ you can't afford to lose bec you can. That's all you need to know.

Retire in early 50s regardless of your income level.

Seems like a great summary
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 24, 2013, 01:35:39 PM
Better than 25% of Americans  :jerk:

 :confused:

 :kstategrad: bro. im already better than 99% of americans.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 24, 2013, 01:43:07 PM
I took "Intro to family finances" as a random elective my senior year.

Not once did we cover anything about 401k's or retirement saving besides the basic Time Value of Money equations which was about 1-2 weeks of class.

Spent most of the time going over how to make a budget and how CC's are bad.

my god

When you stop and think about who writes the textbooks you shudder a bit.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 24, 2013, 01:55:38 PM
I took "Intro to family finances" as a random elective my senior year.

Not once did we cover anything about 401k's or retirement saving besides the basic Time Value of Money equations which was about 1-2 weeks of class.

Spent most of the time going over how to make a budget and how CC's are bad.

my god

When you stop and think about who writes the textbooks you shudder a bit.

The class was taught by some a counselor/therapist or something, I dont think she was an actual professor. First day of class she tells us she wanted to teach this class because most divorces are due to money issues...I doubt she had any financial training.

The class was offered through the human scienes college, loaded with freshmen and soph girls  :D
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 24, 2013, 02:04:52 PM
I took "Intro to family finances" as a random elective my senior year.

Not once did we cover anything about 401k's or retirement saving besides the basic Time Value of Money equations which was about 1-2 weeks of class.

Spent most of the time going over how to make a budget and how CC's are bad.

my god

When you stop and think about who writes the textbooks you shudder a bit.

The class was taught by some a counselor/therapist or something, I dont think she was an actual professor. First day of class she tells us she wanted to teach this class because most divorces are due to money issues...I doubt she had any financial training.

The class was offered through the human scienes college, loaded with freshmen and soph girls  :D

So it might have been a good, informative class, except you had a boner the whole time. :fatty:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: LilSmokyMcIntyre on April 24, 2013, 02:23:02 PM
I took "Intro to family finances" as a random elective my senior year.

Not once did we cover anything about 401k's or retirement saving besides the basic Time Value of Money equations which was about 1-2 weeks of class.

Spent most of the time going over how to make a budget and how CC's are bad.

my god

I think I know the class you were talking about. Ksu offers some fshs major about personal finance. As a finance person myself, I asked my friend in this major what his major was about. It seemed odd to me that our majors sounded so similar but in completely opposite schools. Anyway he said in his major they cared about the people and not the numbers. I laughed at him. I guess I have a different perspective on finances. Numbers should probably be considered.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 24, 2013, 02:34:27 PM
Prerequisite for saving:  Having/realizing that you have money to save. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 24, 2013, 05:57:52 PM
Prerequisite for saving:  Having/realizing that you have money to save.

Aside from 401k, I think it was 3 years out of school before I realized I was blowing thousands of dollars on booze and whores. 
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 8manpick on April 24, 2013, 06:14:40 PM
Prerequisite for saving:  Having/realizing that you have money to save.

Aside from 401k, I think it was 3 years out of school before I realized I was blowing thousands of dollars on booze and whores.
The eff else would you spend it on?

*as a young single college grad
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Phil Titola on April 24, 2013, 09:25:20 PM
Hook yourself up with an HSA if at all possible.  True tax free in and out.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on April 24, 2013, 09:39:58 PM
Hook yourself up with an HSA if at all possible.  True tax free in and out.

I have one. Pretty cool. Once I got to over $2k I was able to put some of it into an index fund.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Whale on April 24, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
I took "Intro to family finances" as a random elective my senior year.

Not once did we cover anything about 401k's or retirement saving besides the basic Time Value of Money equations which was about 1-2 weeks of class.

Spent most of the time going over how to make a budget and how CC's are bad.

my god

I think I know the class you were talking about. Ksu offers some fshs major about personal finance. As a finance person myself, I asked my friend in this major what his major was about. It seemed odd to me that our majors sounded so similar but in completely opposite schools. Anyway he said in his major they cared about the people and not the numbers. I laughed at him. I guess I have a different perspective on finances. Numbers should probably be considered.

So they enroll them in Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University and pocket the difference in cost.  Sounds like a good plan for the 2025 initiative.
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 25, 2013, 06:03:19 AM
Hook yourself up with an HSA if at all possible.  True tax free in and out.

Yeah, I max that thing out every year. I can pick between about 20 funds to invest mine.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 06:25:12 AM
Hook yourself up with an HSA if at all possible.  True tax free in and out.

Yeah, I max that thing out every year. I can pick between about 20 funds to invest mine.
If you make serious bank, max it out and then pay your medical expenses out of pocket.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 25, 2013, 07:15:13 AM
Hook yourself up with an HSA if at all possible.  True tax free in and out.

Yeah, I max that thing out every year. I can pick between about 20 funds to invest mine.
If you make serious bank, max it out and then pay your medical expenses out of pocket.

hmmmm, explain this to me. I mean, I normally have very minimal medical expenses so this thing has just grown over the years. And I can only write off medical expenses over my 7.5% floor. So I'd be giving up the tax benefit of having an HSA now for more growth and benefit later? that does make sense.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 8manpick on April 25, 2013, 07:22:45 AM
My company's HSA is use it or lose it each year (by April 1 of next year)... Total scam right?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 25, 2013, 07:31:09 AM
My company's HSA is use it or lose it each year (by April 1 of next year)... Total scam right?

That's not an HSA, that's an FSA.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 25, 2013, 07:32:57 AM
My company's HSA is use it or lose it each year (by April 1 of next year)... Total scam right?

Yes, you have been the victim of a major scam.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on April 25, 2013, 07:34:29 AM
My company's HSA is use it or lose it each year (by April 1 of next year)... Total scam right?

Yes, you have been the victim of a major scam.

Chum why don't all businesses have HSA for their employees?

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 07:46:54 AM
Hook yourself up with an HSA if at all possible.  True tax free in and out.

Yeah, I max that thing out every year. I can pick between about 20 funds to invest mine.
If you make serious bank, max it out and then pay your medical expenses out of pocket.

hmmmm, explain this to me. I mean, I normally have very minimal medical expenses so this thing has just grown over the years. And I can only write off medical expenses over my 7.5% floor. So I'd be giving up the tax benefit of having an HSA now for more growth and benefit later? that does make sense.
sd...he'll ask you to explain something to him and then, four sentences later, he is all, "Never-mind. Okay, thanks bye."
Also, for those of you that don't make serious bank but are not married, or don't have any kids, or just don't spend crap on medical expenses, this works for you as well. I am just saying, you don't have to make sd type money to follow this advice.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 25, 2013, 07:48:48 AM
I talked it out to myself. still wanted confirmation that was what you meant.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 25, 2013, 07:55:06 AM
My company's HSA is use it or lose it each year (by April 1 of next year)... Total scam right?

Yes, you have been the victim of a major scam.

Chum why don't all businesses have HSA for their employees?

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

Not sure at the moment.  First stab is that it's just not a benefit they've chosen to offer.  Usually, they come with a company match like 401k.  I'll think about it some more.

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 25, 2013, 08:02:29 AM
Now I'm starting to think more clearly.  HSAs are only available for those enrolled in High Deductible Health Plans.  So, if an employer doesn't offer any HDHPs, they can't offer HSAs.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 25, 2013, 08:25:29 AM
I'm a bit confused here as well. HSAs are better for people with low medical bills because you are only paying for the cheapest of medical plans and then your money is gaining interest and if you get really sick you end up paying out of your HSA for that high deductible?

I just signed up for the most expensive medical plan with a low deductible because I didn't wanna risk it. The difference in price was pretty minimal since I don't have a family...
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 25, 2013, 08:37:12 AM
Now I'm starting to think more clearly.  HSAs are only available for those enrolled in High Deductible Health Plans.  So, if an employer doesn't offer any HDHPs, they can't offer HSAs.

I've worked for like five or six companies and none have offered hdhp's. I could get one on my own, but the premium would be way more than the regular deductible plans offered by my employer.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 25, 2013, 08:44:09 AM
I'm a bit confused here as well. HSAs are better for people with low medical bills because you are only paying for the cheapest of medical plans and then your money is gaining interest and if you get really sick you end up paying out of your HSA for that high deductible?

I just signed up for the most expensive medical plan with a low deductible because I didn't wanna risk it. The difference in price was pretty minimal since I don't have a family...

Premiums for HDHPs are way cheaper overall.  Almost always, if you're young and healthy,  the HDHP will cost you a lot less.  But if you can get a plan without a high deductible at the same cost, you should definitely do that.   
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 25, 2013, 08:47:20 AM
My HDHP is free for me and my entire family. My company also puts in $1k at the beginning of each year for the HSA and I can contribute up to a bit over $5k which I do. My wife also gets coverage under her job through BCBS which I think you aren't supposed to do but they've never busted us on it.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 25, 2013, 08:49:20 AM
Now I'm starting to think more clearly.  HSAs are only available for those enrolled in High Deductible Health Plans.  So, if an employer doesn't offer any HDHPs, they can't offer HSAs.

I've worked for like five or six companies and none have offered hdhp's. I could get one on my own, but the premium would be way more than the regular deductible plans offered by my employer.

Yeah, employers often pick up like 60-90% of the premium.  Paying all by yourself sucks. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 25, 2013, 08:56:02 AM
My HDHP is free for me and my entire family. My company also puts in $1k at the beginning of each year for the HSA and I can contribute up to a bit over $5k which I do. My wife also gets coverage under her job through BCBS which I think you aren't supposed to do but they've never busted us on it.

One recent trend is that health plans are starting to tack on additional fees if your spouse is eligible for coverage through their employer.  Fascinating info, huh?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 25, 2013, 08:57:04 AM
I only have an FSA, no HSA :(.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 09:00:55 AM
I talked it out to myself. still wanted confirmation that was what you meant.
I was just saying that you are smart.  :cheers:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 09:06:11 AM
I only have an FSA, no HSA :(.
Use it. Just don't put too much money in it. Up until a couple of years ago you could by over the counter medicine with your FSA. Back when my company only offered an FSA, Mrs. dobber and I went out one year in December and bought $150 worth of crap (vitamins, aspirin, tylenol, cold medicine) just so we didn't lose the money.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 25, 2013, 09:08:42 AM
I only have an FSA, no HSA :(.
Use it. Just don't put too much money in it. Up until a couple of years ago you could by over the counter medicine with your FSA. Back when my company only offered an FSA, Mrs. dobber and I went out one year in December and bought $150 worth of crap (vitamins, aspirin, tylenol, cold medicine) just so we didn't lose the money.

I put $200 in it last year but only used about $100 which was basically a couple dentists/eye doctor copays and some contacts.

I havent been to an actual doctor since I stopped playing high school sports :-/
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 8manpick on April 25, 2013, 09:14:29 AM
Okay, so FSAs seem kinda dumb. I put the minimum that I could in just to cover dentist and checkup type stuff.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: chum1 on April 25, 2013, 09:16:46 AM
It also used to be that you could use HSA money for OTC stuff.  So, like in SD's case, his company would be giving him $1000 each year to buy stuff at Walgreens that he would have purchased anyway.  That didn't last very long.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 25, 2013, 09:22:11 AM
It also used to be that you could use HSA money for OTC stuff.  So, like in SD's case, his company would be giving him $1000 each year to buy stuff at Walgreens that he would have purchased anyway.  That didn't last very long.

Yup, that ended about 3 years ago. My mom had a couple hundred on her card and pretty much cleaned walgreens out of tylenol and nyquil/dayquil. I still have boxes upon boxes that she gave me.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 25, 2013, 09:22:44 AM
I only have an FSA, no HSA :(.
Use it. Just don't put too much money in it. Up until a couple of years ago you could by over the counter medicine with your FSA. Back when my company only offered an FSA, Mrs. dobber and I went out one year in December and bought $150 worth of crap (vitamins, aspirin, tylenol, cold medicine) just so we didn't lose the money.

I put $200 in it last year but only used about $100 which was basically a couple dentists/eye doctor copays and some contacts.

I havent been to an actual doctor since I stopped playing high school sports :-/

Yeah, you shouldn't be using the FSA at all, then.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 09:30:31 AM
Basically, everyone on gE.c should probably be in the cheapest plan their company provides and if your company has a High Deductable HSA, do that. Even the cheap plans have a cap on out of pocket expenses. With the money you save, invest it in HSA, FSA, or Roth IRA. If you have previous serious medical issue, then this may not apply to you.

sd's company is awesome. We only get $800 starter money for the HSA each year. It costs me about $2100/year in premiums for the family. It has a 20% co-pay with an out of pocket max of $3600 as long as I stay in network. I think the max contributions for HSA's this year, which is set by the government, is $5,400.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on April 25, 2013, 09:33:57 AM
Okay, so FSAs seem kinda dumb. I put the minimum that I could in just to cover dentist and checkup type stuff.
I used to work with some fsa plans.  I've seen employees game the plan though.  like one time a guy calculated the price of lasic surgery, "withheld" that amount through the fsa, had it done the first month of the new plan year and then quit his job the next month, effectively having his company pay for most of his lasic. :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Whale on April 25, 2013, 09:39:31 AM
Okay, so FSAs seem kinda dumb. I put the minimum that I could in just to cover dentist and checkup type stuff.
I used to work with some fsa plans.  I've seen employees game the plan though.  like one time a guy calculated the price of lasic surgery, "withheld" that amount through the fsa, had it done the first month of the new plan year and then quit his job the next month, effectively having his company pay for most of his lasic. :lol:

I'm friends with someone who worked for a company that managed FSAs.  She dealt with companies calling about that specific issue all of the time. 

Company would be all:  :curse:

While the employee would be:   :eye:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 09:42:39 AM
Okay, so FSAs seem kinda dumb. I put the minimum that I could in just to cover dentist and checkup type stuff.
I used to work with some fsa plans.  I've seen employees game the plan though.  like one time a guy calculated the price of lasic surgery, "withheld" that amount through the fsa, had it done the first month of the new plan year and then quit his job the next month, effectively having his company pay for most of his lasic. :lol:
Awesome. I unintentionally did this. When I left my other job, the money in the FSA was mine (I had already spent it), even though I hadn't contributed it all. The company puts all of the money in the FSA at the beginning of the year, then they take it out of your paycheck over the course of the year. Is it still done that way?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on April 25, 2013, 09:45:28 AM
Okay, so FSAs seem kinda dumb. I put the minimum that I could in just to cover dentist and checkup type stuff.
I used to work with some fsa plans.  I've seen employees game the plan though.  like one time a guy calculated the price of lasic surgery, "withheld" that amount through the fsa, had it done the first month of the new plan year and then quit his job the next month, effectively having his company pay for most of his lasic. :lol:
Awesome. I unintentionally did this. When I left my other job, the money in the FSA was mine (I had already spent it), even though I hadn't contributed it all. The company puts all of the money in the FSA at the beginning of the year, then they take it out of your paycheck over the course of the year. Is it still done that way?

That's how mine works.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on April 25, 2013, 09:45:40 AM
where do unused fsa contributions go?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 09:53:11 AM
where do unused fsa contributions go?
Back to the employer is what I always understood.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: LilSmokyMcIntyre on April 25, 2013, 09:58:50 AM
My HDHP is free for me and my entire family. My company also puts in $1k at the beginning of each year for the HSA and I can contribute up to a bit over $5k which I do. My wife also gets coverage under her job through BCBS which I think you aren't supposed to do but they've never busted us on it.

Be careful with that. If you get audited they will bust you. Plus if the IRS auditor is a cat fan then he knows you know it's wrong and would get double busted.

Also, I do not believe health expenses that are paid for by an hsa are eligible for the 7.5% tax floor. You get the tax benefit upfront so you don't get it on the back end. Could be wrong but I don't think I am.

If you're young, relatively healthy then an hsa is great. Tax benefits and the fact that it will be used before you die plus you get investment options on it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 25, 2013, 10:01:13 AM
Also, I do not believe health expenses that are paid for by an hsa are eligible for the 7.5% tax floor. You get the tax benefit upfront so you don't get it on the back end. Could be wrong but I don't think I am.

I know, our discussion was about putting the money in the HSA long term and paying health costs OOP which would bring in the 7.5% tax floor (which I have never gotten close to meeting) so I wouldn't be able to deduct them.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on April 25, 2013, 10:03:29 AM
I only have an FSA, no HSA :(.
Use it. Just don't put too much money in it. Up until a couple of years ago you could by over the counter medicine with your FSA. Back when my company only offered an FSA, Mrs. dobber and I went out one year in December and bought $150 worth of crap (vitamins, aspirin, tylenol, cold medicine) just so we didn't lose the money.

I put $200 in it last year but only used about $100 which was basically a couple dentists/eye doctor copays and some contacts.

I havent been to an actual doctor since I stopped playing high school sports :-/

Yeah, you shouldn't be using the FSA at all, then.

You can buy sunglasses with your FSA as long as they are "prescription ready" even if you don't actually get prescription lenses.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on April 25, 2013, 10:03:53 AM
i can only change my health plan once a year so can we freeze this thread cuz ill forget next year when i wanna change it
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 10:04:49 AM
Also, I do not believe health expenses that are paid for by an hsa are eligible for the 7.5% tax floor. You get the tax benefit upfront so you don't get it on the back end. Could be wrong but I don't think I am.

I know, our discussion was about putting the money in the HSA long term and paying health costs OOP which would bring in the 7.5% tax floor (which I have never gotten close to meeting) so I wouldn't be able to deduct them.
Even excluding the 7.5% tax floor, I still believe paying out of pocket now and allowing the HSA to grow tax free is a good plan when you have small annual out of pocket expenses.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: LilSmokyMcIntyre on April 25, 2013, 10:10:06 AM
Also, I do not believe health expenses that are paid for by an hsa are eligible for the 7.5% tax floor. You get the tax benefit upfront so you don't get it on the back end. Could be wrong but I don't think I am.

I know, our discussion was about putting the money in the HSA long term and paying health costs OOP which would bring in the 7.5% tax floor (which I have never gotten close to meeting) so I wouldn't be able to deduct them.
Even excluding the 7.5% tax floor, I still believe paying out of pocket now and allowing the HSA to grow tax free is a good plan when you have small annual out of pocket expenses.

Completely agree. Another bonus...if you do not max out your hsa and come tax time you realize that you could use a tax deduction (bec you know, you're a cat fan and its tough to track the gobs of $ you make), then you can put more into your hsa and count it as prior year contribution until April 15. Thus lowering the tax you owe Uncle Sam on your return.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on April 25, 2013, 10:16:06 AM
where do unused fsa contributions go?
Back to the employer is what I always understood.

my company donates the money to charity.  Not sure if they are allowed to keep it or not. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Fedor on April 25, 2013, 11:29:58 AM
My HDHP is free for me and my entire family. My company also puts in $1k at the beginning of each year for the HSA and I can contribute up to a bit over $5k which I do. My wife also gets coverage under her job through BCBS which I think you aren't supposed to do but they've never busted us on it.

Be careful with that. If you get audited they will bust you. Plus if the IRS auditor is a cat fan then he knows you know it's wrong and would get double busted.

Also, I do not believe health expenses that are paid for by an hsa are eligible for the 7.5% tax floor. You get the tax benefit upfront so you don't get it on the back end. Could be wrong but I don't think I am.

If you're young, relatively healthy then an hsa is great. Tax benefits and the fact that it will be used before you die plus you get investment options on it.
Please elaborate, this fund would be several hundred thousand dollars at retirement if you max out the contributions every year.  You can't pay premiums w/ it and most will likely have insurance even after retirement.  I am having a hard time seeing how someone could spend all this money given the restrictions.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 25, 2013, 11:43:45 AM
My HDHP is free for me and my entire family. My company also puts in $1k at the beginning of each year for the HSA and I can contribute up to a bit over $5k which I do. My wife also gets coverage under her job through BCBS which I think you aren't supposed to do but they've never busted us on it.

Be careful with that. If you get audited they will bust you. Plus if the IRS auditor is a cat fan then he knows you know it's wrong and would get double busted.

Also, I do not believe health expenses that are paid for by an hsa are eligible for the 7.5% tax floor. You get the tax benefit upfront so you don't get it on the back end. Could be wrong but I don't think I am.

If you're young, relatively healthy then an hsa is great. Tax benefits and the fact that it will be used before you die plus you get investment options on it.
Please elaborate, this fund would be several hundred thousand dollars at retirement if you max out the contributions every year.  You can't pay premiums w/ it and most will likely have insurance even after retirement.  I am having a hard time seeing how someone could spend all this money given the restrictions.

You can draw on it like any other investment after the age of 65. You don't have to use it for medical expenses. It essentially becomes an IRA.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: LilSmokyMcIntyre on April 25, 2013, 11:44:13 AM
My HDHP is free for me and my entire family. My company also puts in $1k at the beginning of each year for the HSA and I can contribute up to a bit over $5k which I do. My wife also gets coverage under her job through BCBS which I think you aren't supposed to do but they've never busted us on it.

Be careful with that. If you get audited they will bust you. Plus if the IRS auditor is a cat fan then he knows you know it's wrong and would get double busted.

Also, I do not believe health expenses that are paid for by an hsa are eligible for the 7.5% tax floor. You get the tax benefit upfront so you don't get it on the back end. Could be wrong but I don't think I am.

If you're young, relatively healthy then an hsa is great. Tax benefits and the fact that it will be used before you die plus you get investment options on it.
Please elaborate, this fund would be several hundred thousand dollars at retirement if you max out the contributions every year.  You can't pay premiums w/ it and most will likely have insurance even after retirement.  I am having a hard time seeing how someone could spend all this money given the restrictions.

Unless you're a super human you (or your family) will have health issues that will require out of pocket expenses. But if you are super human and you die with a healthy hsa then your spouse/beneficiary can use it. I'm not sure of the hsa rules regarding beneficiaries so it may even be able to be used for non health expenses/general purchases at that point. Wouldn't shock me.

FYI, health expenses are only going to increase. Furthermore there's no guarantees that hsa will be around forever. Just like there's no guarantees that Roth IRAs will be around forever.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on April 25, 2013, 11:49:22 AM
My HDHP is free for me and my entire family. My company also puts in $1k at the beginning of each year for the HSA and I can contribute up to a bit over $5k which I do. My wife also gets coverage under her job through BCBS which I think you aren't supposed to do but they've never busted us on it.

Be careful with that. If you get audited they will bust you. Plus if the IRS auditor is a cat fan then he knows you know it's wrong and would get double busted.

Also, I do not believe health expenses that are paid for by an hsa are eligible for the 7.5% tax floor. You get the tax benefit upfront so you don't get it on the back end. Could be wrong but I don't think I am.

If you're young, relatively healthy then an hsa is great. Tax benefits and the fact that it will be used before you die plus you get investment options on it.
Please elaborate, this fund would be several hundred thousand dollars at retirement if you max out the contributions every year.  You can't pay premiums w/ it and most will likely have insurance even after retirement.  I am having a hard time seeing how someone could spend all this money given the restrictions.


You don't know how much nursing home care costs, do you. Either way, it doesn't matter:

Fromhttp://www.hsaconnect.com/irs-and-treasury-hsa-publications/hsa-basics/what-happens-to-my-hsa-when-I-die.php (http://www.hsaconnect.com/irs-and-treasury-hsa-publications/hsa-basics/what-happens-to-my-hsa-when-I-die.php)
Quote
If your spouse becomes the owner of the account, your spouse can use it as if it were their own HSA. If you are not married, the account will no longer be treated as an HSA upon your death. The account will pass to your beneficiary or become part of your estate (and be subject to any applicable taxes).
There isn't much bad that can be found in investing in an HSA.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 26, 2013, 09:44:50 AM
So I was thinking about the increasing popularity of Index funds the other day and have some questions....

Index funds are basically a collection of stocks meant to mimic the movement of the a certain index(SP500, Dow, etc) correct?

Lets say right now only 10%(Completely made up percent) of individual investors actually buy Index funds now but the gospel is spreading and soon 50% of individual investors are buying index funds instead of mutual funds.

Wouldnt this lead to the stocks in the index funds being overvalued(and then crashing) compared to other stocks not included in the Index's?

Do Index funds adjust for this?

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 26, 2013, 09:48:23 AM
So I was thinking about the increasing popularity of Index funds the other day and have some questions....

Index funds are basically a collection of stocks meant to mimic the movement of the a certain index(SP500, Dow, etc) correct?

Lets say right now only 10%(Completely made up percent) of individual investors actually buy Index funds now but the gospel is spreading and soon 50% of individual investors are buying index funds instead of mutual funds.

Wouldnt this lead to the stocks in the index funds being overvalued(and then crashing) compared to other stocks not included in the Index's?

Do Index funds adjust for this?

my initial response is "wut?" but the short answer is "no"
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 26, 2013, 09:50:27 AM
So I was thinking about the increasing popularity of Index funds the other day and have some questions....

Index funds are basically a collection of stocks meant to mimic the movement of the a certain index(SP500, Dow, etc) correct?

Lets say right now only 10%(Completely made up percent) of individual investors actually buy Index funds now but the gospel is spreading and soon 50% of individual investors are buying index funds instead of mutual funds.

Wouldnt this lead to the stocks in the index funds being overvalued(and then crashing) compared to other stocks not included in the Index's?

Do Index funds adjust for this?

my initial response is "wut?" but the short answer is "no"

No they dont adjust for this or No this though process makes no sense?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 26, 2013, 09:57:12 AM
So I was thinking about the increasing popularity of Index funds the other day and have some questions....

Index funds are basically a collection of stocks meant to mimic the movement of the a certain index(SP500, Dow, etc) correct?

Lets say right now only 10%(Completely made up percent) of individual investors actually buy Index funds now but the gospel is spreading and soon 50% of individual investors are buying index funds instead of mutual funds.

Wouldnt this lead to the stocks in the index funds being overvalued(and then crashing) compared to other stocks not included in the Index's?

Do Index funds adjust for this?

my initial response is "wut?" but the short answer is "no"

No they dont adjust for this or No this though process makes no sense?

in your scenario people are moving from mutual funds to index funds. the same securities in those mutual funds are held in the index funds. they just aren't actively managed and charged.

index funds hold groups of stocks across all ranges, industries, markets, etc. and not just stocks. bonds, real estate investments, etc. the investors moving into them are moving away from either individually owning these assets or owning them in another fund of some sort.

I guess I still don't 100% understand what you are asking but I'm pretty confident the answer is "no".
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on April 26, 2013, 10:02:17 AM
Ben ji, when one company is dropped from the DJIA it's common to see a drop in share price and also trade volume.  Opposite is true when a company is added to the DJIA. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on April 26, 2013, 10:03:30 AM
and most of the individual stocks or other assets that make up those funds are held institutionally and if the price gets driven up artificially by some random market rush by the personal retirement investor (which isn't really feasible) the market will correct for it pretty fast.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 26, 2013, 10:45:23 AM
Thanks friends!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on May 03, 2013, 10:11:42 AM
enough with the market timing fight.  anyone invest in individual stocks?  to me, that's the fun part.

I have a few. Mostly just for my own enjoyment, not really a way to strike it rich or anything unless I get lucky.

This.

Currently own some YRC stock, Bought in over the summer for around $6.45 per share and it is currently at 6.75. Was up over 8.00 a share a couple weeks ago but has had some crazy fluctuations both good and bad.

Back in 2010 I read an atricle about Macau overtaking Vegas and the worldwide gambling capital. Looked up the companies that had casino's based in Macaua and its basically just Wynn and Las Vegas Sands. Was going to buy some LVS stock for $28 but I was a new grad and didnt have any money. LVS us currently over $50.  :(

 :D
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on May 11, 2013, 04:31:34 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/strategy-lab/value-investing/want-to-beat-the-pros-and-thrash-the-market-index-hire-a-robotic-monkey/article11559550/
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on May 11, 2013, 05:32:08 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/strategy-lab/value-investing/want-to-beat-the-pros-and-thrash-the-market-index-hire-a-robotic-monkey/article11559550/

stud market timing monkey robot
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ChiCat on May 11, 2013, 05:40:07 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/strategy-lab/value-investing/want-to-beat-the-pros-and-thrash-the-market-index-hire-a-robotic-monkey/article11559550/

stud market timing monkey robot

But what are the fees of this stud market timing monkey robot?  The article just assumes you get them for free
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on May 11, 2013, 07:12:13 PM
Hmmm, monkey now less stud
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on May 12, 2013, 05:38:41 PM
the robot monkeys are an index.  whether they'd be cheaper or more expensive than the fees of a fund would depend on how you carried out the monkeys' trade orders and how much you had invested.

too lazy to try and calculate it, but i'd guess the break even point on fees would be somewhere around 50k.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on May 13, 2013, 02:19:13 PM
I have an hsa. My company gives me $500 every year, $1000 once I have a family. It's pretty boss. I spend like $100 a year on health care so it's up to like $3k. My hdhp carries a $2500 deductible and costs like $11 a paycheck.

My fiancée is a pt so once we're married I'll just hop onto whatever ridiculous healthcare plan the hospital she gets a job at offers.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on May 13, 2013, 02:40:20 PM
i checked into the hsa, and i don't think it makes sense for me (prolly would if my wife wasn't getting insurance through me).  i was pretty bummed.  the company i work for apparently goes out of their way to incentive the low deductable plans instead of the hsa eligible plans.

i mean it's close, but the benefit it pretty measly compared to the risk of spending more.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Phil Titola on May 13, 2013, 06:59:42 PM
Anybody trying this?

https://www.lendingclub.com
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on May 13, 2013, 09:53:29 PM
did anyone mention http://betterment.com itt?  I used it for a year or so with good results before moving all my investments over to Schwab. really good for your first time as there are no minimums and it's super easy, just set your aggressiveness and they do the rest. also cheap.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on May 13, 2013, 10:03:17 PM
Anybody trying this?

https://www.lendingclub.com


Not legal in KS, I'm sure you can get around it but probably a pain.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on May 13, 2013, 10:04:05 PM
did anyone mention http://betterment.com itt?  I used it for a year or so with good results before moving all my investments over to Schwab. really good for your first time as there are no minimums and it's super easy, just set your aggressiveness and they do the rest. also cheap.

If its so great why did you stop using it?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GoodForAnother on May 13, 2013, 10:33:33 PM
did anyone mention http://betterment.com itt?  I used it for a year or so with good results before moving all my investments over to Schwab. really good for your first time as there are no minimums and it's super easy, just set your aggressiveness and they do the rest. also cheap.

If its so great why did you stop using it?

just decided to move everything to one place.  it's not very flexible really either and I like knowing where my money actually is. but it was good for just starting off.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: GCJayhawker on May 15, 2013, 09:15:45 AM
Which one of you crazy guys/gals wrote this story? It reads like it was stole straight from gE and this thread.

http://lifehacker.com/pay-off-student-loans-or-start-investing-whats-the-be-505698915
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on May 15, 2013, 09:40:37 AM
Ole ben ji's dad has always fancied himself as an ivestment guy/day trader. When I was growing up he would always ask me and my siblings if we wanted to invest some money in the stocks he was buying but they were all stupid penny stock stuff and I stopped after losing a couple hundred dollars. The only stock I can actually remember him buying was for a new TV network call "Queer TV" in the early 2000's, never knew if it was an actually company but it does strike me as strange that a right wing rush limbaugh devotee would invest in "Queer TV"

Anyways he works in IT and usually works from home spending alot of his time daytrading. 

So yesterday I stop by my parents house on the way to work to grab some stuff and start talking to him. He tells me to keep an eye on a certain stock, forgot the name, and that it was up 15cents on pretrading. I ask him how much he has invested in it and he tells me "Alot of my retirement money", all in this one stock I ask, "Yep".

I called him an idiot and told him that a 55yr old man shouldnt be putting that much emphasis on one stock. He looked at me with puppy dog eyes and said "But its up 15cents on pretrading"
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 15, 2013, 09:43:53 AM
The ben ji's are risk takers, that much is evident.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on May 15, 2013, 11:39:08 AM
Ole ben ji's dad has always fancied himself as an ivestment guy/day trader. When I was growing up he would always ask me and my siblings if we wanted to invest some money in the stocks he was buying but they were all stupid penny stock stuff and I stopped after losing a couple hundred dollars. The only stock I can actually remember him buying was for a new TV network call "Queer TV" in the early 2000's, never knew if it was an actually company but it does strike me as strange that a right wing rush limbaugh devotee would invest in "Queer TV"

Anyways he works in IT and usually works from home spending alot of his time daytrading. 

So yesterday I stop by my parents house on the way to work to grab some stuff and start talking to him. He tells me to keep an eye on a certain stock, forgot the name, and that it was up 15cents on pretrading. I ask him how much he has invested in it and he tells me "Alot of my retirement money", all in this one stock I ask, "Yep".

I called him an idiot and told him that a 55yr old man shouldnt be putting that much emphasis on one stock. He looked at me with puppy dog eyes and said "But its up 15cents on pretrading"

In a couple years Ben ji is going to start a thread about having your parents move in with you because they lost all their retirement money trading penny stocks. T's and p's Ben ji!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slucat on May 23, 2013, 09:50:55 AM
looks like a 5-10% seasonal drop in the market is coming, planning on holding onto my stocks, but thinking of dumping my index fund...is now the time?  :dunno:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on May 23, 2013, 10:00:31 AM
looks like a 5-10% seasonal drop in the market is coming, planning on holding onto my stocks, but thinking of dumping my index fund...is now the time?  :dunno:

short everything.   :runaway:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: scottwildcat on May 23, 2013, 10:01:23 AM
looks like a 5-10% seasonal drop in the market is coming, planning on holding onto my stocks, but thinking of dumping my index fund...is now the time?  :dunno:
:dubious:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on May 23, 2013, 10:02:39 AM
well, the s&p is up like 7% in the last month alone
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 23, 2013, 10:05:06 AM
S&P at a near record for EPS.  :dunno:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on May 23, 2013, 10:07:22 AM
Thanks Obama
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slucat on May 23, 2013, 10:10:37 AM
Yes I realize things are at record highs…I’ve made some $$ while riding this for the last several months, however, typically the market pulls back in the summer and is due for a correction.  As I understood it from this thread and other information, index funds go with the market, no reason to buy and hold and ride it back down.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on May 23, 2013, 10:15:49 AM
Sell every stock you own and never buy one again. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slucat on May 23, 2013, 10:18:42 AM
Sell every stock you own and never buy one again.

 :dubious:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 23, 2013, 10:38:35 AM
Yes I realize things are at record highs…I’ve made some $$ while riding this for the last several months, however, typically the market pulls back in the summer and is due for a correction.  As I understood it from this thread and other information, index funds go with the market, no reason to buy and hold and ride it back down.

I'm probably one of the only ones in this thread that is fervently against the buy and hold strategy.  But others are certainly right about timing.  You can get shaken out of positions pretty easily if your stops are too tight.

Will we see enough movement to warrant selling with a plan to buy back?  Right now the S&P is 6% over 90DMA, and 10% over 180DMA.  Seems too soon to sell stuff, especially considering the fundamentals.  Maybe thin positions you want out of anyway and wait for a good buy point on stuff you want.  I'm wait and see and moving up stops.  But if we get down to 150 or 180DMA, I'm shorting a bunch of stuff.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on May 23, 2013, 10:44:16 AM
Opened my roth IRA about a year ago, everything is in 1 mutual fund and I've been meaning to redistribute some of it into an ETF(Looking at ITOT). Finally got around to selling half the mutual fund yesterday, waiting until at least next week to reinvest it in a ETF, maybe longer if the market keeps going down. 

Not really trying to time anything, just something I've been meaning to do for a while.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slucat on May 23, 2013, 10:45:03 AM
Yes I realize things are at record highs…I’ve made some $$ while riding this for the last several months, however, typically the market pulls back in the summer and is due for a correction.  As I understood it from this thread and other information, index funds go with the market, no reason to buy and hold and ride it back down.

I'm probably one of the only ones in this thread that is fervently against the buy and hold strategy.  But others are certainly right about timing.  You can get shaken out of positions pretty easily if your stops are too tight.

Will we see enough movement to warrant selling with a plan to buy back?  Right now the S&P is 6% over 90DMA, and 10% over 180DMA.  Seems too soon to sell stuff, especially considering the fundamentals.  Maybe thin positions you want out of anyway and wait for a good buy point on stuff you want.  I'm wait and see and moving up stops.  But if we get down to 150 or 180DMA, I'm shorting a bunch of stuff.

Thanks, of course I'll reinvest, but it would be nice to cash in...take my profit and put in again this summer after the pull back...I'll keep all my stocks, they are paying dividends after all.  This is just my play account, not my retirement. I'll wait to see if the market does another run up before I sell off the index fund; I'm up over 40% on it...I can afford a small pull back and still come out ahead.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on May 23, 2013, 07:41:42 PM
slu, if you're going to try to time the market, pick a system that has a track record and stick to it.  doing it by hunch or emotion is not a proven system.

and, if you're doing this in a taxable account, you're going to have to hurdle the taxes you create for yourself before you even get back to even.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 23, 2013, 07:49:34 PM
Question:  is doing anything other than buying and holding considered "timing the market?"
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on May 23, 2013, 08:05:20 PM
Question:  is doing anything other than buying and holding considered "timing the market?"

if you buy or sell because you're trying to time the market, then it is.  if not, then it's not.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on May 28, 2013, 10:18:58 AM
Random investing story I heard this weekend from my bro down at the Ozarks.

His family is from Versailles and his gpa was one of the original developers of the Ozarks. Back in the day old Bud Walton(Brother of sam) was going door to door in Versailles selling walmart stock/raising capital, knocked on his gpa's door and gave him the pitch but got shot down.

Apparently Bud's widow still lives in a non descript house in versailles despite being worth hundreds of millions. 

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: lopakman on June 12, 2013, 04:44:21 PM
Sold a couple pud stocks and just put a buy order in for 100 shares of ConocoPhillips to hold onto longterm.  Great p/e ratio at just over 10 and currently paying over 4% yearly dividend.  Hope it doesn't tank when all cars run on corn.

 :crossfingers:
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on June 12, 2013, 09:45:32 PM
Random investing story I heard this weekend from my bro down at the Ozarks.

His family is from Versailles and his gpa was one of the original developers of the Ozarks. Back in the day old Bud Walton(Brother of sam) was going door to door in Versailles selling walmart stock/raising capital, knocked on his gpa's door and gave him the pitch but got shot down.

Apparently Bud's widow still lives in a non descript house in versailles despite being worth hundreds of millions.
I love stories like that. I had a great uncle who was a hermit, no wife, no kids, but apparently he was an investing guru. The guy was so cheap he wore clothes with holes in them. My grandparents tell a story about when he got new carpet in his house he just had the carpet layers put the new carpet directly over the old carpet so he didn't have to buy a new carpet pad. The guy died with millions and left it all to the local public library.
Title: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on June 12, 2013, 09:53:18 PM
I love stories like that. I had a great uncle who was a hermit, no wife, no kids, but apparently he was an investing guru. The guy was so cheap he wore clothes with holes in them. My grandparents tell a story about when he got new carpet in his house he just had the carpet layers put the new carpet directly over the old carpet so he didn't have to buy a new carpet pad. The guy died with millions and left it all to the local public library.

you don't need outsized returns if you don't spend your income.
Title: Re: Re: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on June 12, 2013, 10:04:15 PM
I love stories like that. I had a great uncle who was a hermit, no wife, no kids, but apparently he was an investing guru. The guy was so cheap he wore clothes with holes in them. My grandparents tell a story about when he got new carpet in his house he just had the carpet layers put the new carpet directly over the old carpet so he didn't have to buy a new carpet pad. The guy died with millions and left it all to the local public library.

you don't need outsized returns if you don't spend your income.
Don't ruin a childhood folk hero for me sys, ok?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on June 12, 2013, 10:18:08 PM
didn't mean to.  plus, he left his money to a public library, so he was a great man.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on June 12, 2013, 10:32:44 PM
didn't mean to.  plus, he left his money to a public library, so he was a great man.

 :thumbs:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 26, 2013, 03:01:48 PM
i just learned this.  should be of interest to you low-cost index investors.


https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/etf/etfs-tax-efficiency
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on July 26, 2013, 04:38:17 PM
i just learned this.  should be of interest to you low-cost index investors.


https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/etf/etfs-tax-efficiency

That is true but probably misleading.  Most of the investors in this thread are exclusively investing in tax sheltered accounts (401k, 403b or IRAs).  For the few that aren't, they should run the numbers on the cost of opening and maintaining a brokerage account in the first place.  They may well exceed any potential tax benefits that would be gained by investing in ETF.  For example, Vanguard requires you to have a brokerage account to buy/sell ETF's with them.  Now they don't charge a commission but there are fees associated with each trade and the opening and maintenance of the brokerage account. 

So if you are taking a buy and hold strategy in a taxable investing account (and you already max your 401k past employer match AND your IRA AND you don't have a good HSA to stash this cash or have maxed that out) then it might be a better option assuming you have enough to make the fees a smaller concern than the tax liability.

Proceed with caution friends.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 26, 2013, 05:27:33 PM
it's not misleading.  it should be obvious to anyone looking at it that tax efficiency isn't a concern if all of your investments are in tax advantaged accounts.

transaction costs (including any account maintenance fees) are usually equal or lower for etfs vs mutual funds.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 26, 2013, 05:57:55 PM
on a semi-related note - does anyone have a discount brokerage they'd recommend for fees and flexibility?  i've been toying with opening an ib account for options and foreign markets, but i'm not sure i'd be active enough to justify the maintenance fees (actually, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't be). 
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on July 26, 2013, 08:45:12 PM
on a semi-related note - does anyone have a discount brokerage they'd recommend for fees and flexibility?  i've been toying with opening an ib account for options and foreign markets, but i'm not sure i'd be active enough to justify the maintenance fees (actually, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't be).

Yeah see my post above.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 26, 2013, 09:06:18 PM
Yeah see my post above.

i didn't see any recommendos in your post.
Title: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on July 26, 2013, 09:39:31 PM
sys, I think commodities are where it's at
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 26, 2013, 09:43:00 PM
sys, I think commodities are where it's at

not for me.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kostakio on July 26, 2013, 11:02:13 PM
on a semi-related note - does anyone have a discount brokerage they'd recommend for fees and flexibility?  i've been toying with opening an ib account for options and foreign markets, but i'm not sure i'd be active enough to justify the maintenance fees (actually, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't be).

Fidelity doesn't charge any fees to open or maintain an account. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 26, 2013, 11:59:15 PM
Fidelity doesn't charge any fees to open or maintain an account. 

that's the only viable alternative to ib for access to foreign markets that i've seen.  ib has lower trading fees, but if you don't hit the volume marks, you have the maintenance fees.  fidelity has higher fees and isn't as flexible, but no maintenance fees.

fidelity probably makes more sense for me right now.  gotta admit, ib would feed my ego a little.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: hemmy on July 27, 2013, 12:08:49 AM
i just learned this.  should be of interest to you low-cost index investors.


https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/etf/etfs-tax-efficiency

That is true but probably misleading.  Most of the investors in this thread are exclusively investing in tax sheltered accounts (401k, 403b or IRAs).  For the few that aren't, they should run the numbers on the cost of opening and maintaining a brokerage account in the first place.  They may well exceed any potential tax benefits that would be gained by investing in ETF.  For example, Vanguard requires you to have a brokerage account to buy/sell ETF's with them.  Now they don't charge a commission but there are fees associated with each trade and the opening and maintenance of the brokerage account. 

So if you are taking a buy and hold strategy in a taxable investing account (and you already max your 401k past employer match AND your IRA AND you don't have a good HSA to stash this cash or have maxed that out) then it might be a better option assuming you have enough to make the fees a smaller concern than the tax liability.

Proceed with caution friends.

With Scottrade, its $7 per trade, and the only fees are the fees charged by the funds themselves. There is no cost to having a brokerage account, you just lose out on the tax benefits.  My Roth IRA & brokerage account are both through Scottrade and the two accounts are basically identical - access to tons of ETFs should you so choose.

My investments are quite different though across the two, and in my IRA I make the max contribution in January and invest then, and then leave it alone pretty much.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 27, 2013, 01:02:50 AM
With Scottrade, its $7 per trade, and the only fees are the fees charged by the funds themselves. There is no cost to having a brokerage account.

i use scottrade currently.  no complaints, it's just too limited for some things i want to invest in the future.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on July 27, 2013, 09:47:38 AM
i just learned this.  should be of interest to you low-cost index investors.


https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/etf/etfs-tax-efficiency

That is true but probably misleading.  Most of the investors in this thread are exclusively investing in tax sheltered accounts (401k, 403b or IRAs).  For the few that aren't, they should run the numbers on the cost of opening and maintaining a brokerage account in the first place.  They may well exceed any potential tax benefits that would be gained by investing in ETF.  For example, Vanguard requires you to have a brokerage account to buy/sell ETF's with them.  Now they don't charge a commission but there are fees associated with each trade and the opening and maintenance of the brokerage account. 

So if you are taking a buy and hold strategy in a taxable investing account (and you already max your 401k past employer match AND your IRA AND you don't have a good HSA to stash this cash or have maxed that out) then it might be a better option assuming you have enough to make the fees a smaller concern than the tax liability.

Proceed with caution friends.

With Scottrade, its $7 per trade, and the only fees are the fees charged by the funds themselves. There is no cost to having a brokerage account, you just lose out on the tax benefits.  My Roth IRA & brokerage account are both through Scottrade and the two accounts are basically identical - access to tons of ETFs should you so choose.

My investments are quite different though across the two, and in my IRA I make the max contribution in January and invest then, and then leave it alone pretty much.

That is good info.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 27, 2013, 12:34:01 PM
kat kid, almost all of the online discount brokers have no fees to open or maintain an account.  ib is the only one i've seen that does.


if you transfer in a significant amount of money, a lot will pay you to open and maintain an account.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 27, 2013, 05:17:28 PM
With Scottrade, its $7 per trade, and the only fees are the fees charged by the funds themselves. There is no cost to having a brokerage account.

i use scottrade currently.  no complaints, it's just too limited for some things i want to invest in the future.

Is the interface still complete crap?  Maybe that was First Trade.  One of those with two t's in the middle.  My brokerage account is with e*trade and it's lke $10 per trade, no other fees.  Kinda high but I don't trade a lot unless things are really volatile, more investing. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on July 27, 2013, 05:29:59 PM
I have an IRA and some index funds with a vanguard account and a trading account with tdameritrade. $10 a trade as well. their HQ is right down the street from my office which is probably the reason I use them which is admittedly not a good reason.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 27, 2013, 05:32:53 PM
Better then "I use e*trade because it was started by an EMAW and the baby commercials are cute."  (Which is my reason.)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: hemmy on July 27, 2013, 05:36:49 PM
E trade was a complete bitch trying to get my account activated so I just gave up and used scottrade because there is a scottrade office like 2 blocks from where I live, lol.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 28, 2013, 12:39:18 AM
Is the interface still complete crap?

honestly, it isn't likely that i'd notice any difference between a complete crap interface and one that's completely badass.  it's been easy for me to do whatever i've wanted to do that that is possible to do with their accounts, if that gives you any info on their interface quality.

if you're thinking of switching your whole account, i'd prolly just go bonus hunting.  i haven't looked at competing bonuses, but fidelity will give you decent cash or miles.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: WonderMeal on July 29, 2013, 11:21:44 PM
Sys, I'm no herpetologist, but I think you should try Schwab.

If there's two things WonderMeal defends wholeheartedly, it's the KSU Cats Purple University and the choice to use Schwab for all banking/investments.

Especially if you're new to investing (which I know Sys is not), Schwab's customer service is superb at taking you from pud to stud.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 29, 2013, 11:49:47 PM
thanks, wonder.  i've seen a lot of positive opinion re. schwab, and i imagine they are a little less handholdey on options than scottrade.  but, they offer significantly less ability to trade in foreign markets than fidelity or ib, and that's probably the main reason i'd open another account.

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: WonderMeal on September 17, 2013, 07:23:09 AM
TTHOTUC, Ben ji, et al-

This post on the Washington Post's Wonkblog is pretty much all you need. All the financial advice you'll ever need on a note card!

Full article below the pic.
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/pollack-card-800x600.jpg)

Quote from: Wonkblog

Think managing your finances has to be complicated? Wonkblog contributor (and UC Chicago social scientist) Harold Pollack doesn't. After a talk with personal finance expert Helaine Olen, Pollack managed to write down pretty much everything you need to know on a 4x6 index card. And it would probably fit on a 3x5 index card if you really crammed (that last point, for instance, is probably not strictly necessary for managing your money). He explains:

The card came out of an RBC chat I had with Helaine Olen regarding what I view as the financial industry’s basic dilemma: The best investment advice fits on an index card. A commenter, Alex M, asked for the actual index card. Although I was originally speaking in metaphor, I grabbed a pen and one of my daughter's note cards, scribbled this out in maybe three minutes, snapped a picture with my iPhone, and the rest was history. (Here's the picture and post.)

Pollack's right. Follow these principles and you'll be in much, much, much better shape than most Americans — or most anyone. And all it will cost you is $2.20 for a pack of index cards — and you'll have 99 of them left over.
It's really hard to be poor (see Pollack's amazing interview on how being poor changes the way people think for more on that). But the lesson here is that once you have an income that you can live off of and save a little bit besides, managing your finances shouldn't be all that hard. The people making it complicated are often trying to make money off of you.


:kstategrad:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on September 17, 2013, 07:28:34 AM
I can destroy that guy's card by using one half of one line of a card

Quote
put $50k in the bank er' month
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ksucrcoop on September 17, 2013, 09:08:47 AM
TTHOTUC, Ben ji, et al-

This post on the Washington Post's Wonkblog is pretty much all you need. All the financial advice you'll ever need on a note card!

Full article below the pic.
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/pollack-card-800x600.jpg)

Quote from: Wonkblog

Think managing your finances has to be complicated? Wonkblog contributor (and UC Chicago social scientist) Harold Pollack doesn't. After a talk with personal finance expert Helaine Olen, Pollack managed to write down pretty much everything you need to know on a 4x6 index card. And it would probably fit on a 3x5 index card if you really crammed (that last point, for instance, is probably not strictly necessary for managing your money). He explains:

The card came out of an RBC chat I had with Helaine Olen regarding what I view as the financial industry’s basic dilemma: The best investment advice fits on an index card. A commenter, Alex M, asked for the actual index card. Although I was originally speaking in metaphor, I grabbed a pen and one of my daughter's note cards, scribbled this out in maybe three minutes, snapped a picture with my iPhone, and the rest was history. (Here's the picture and post.)

Pollack's right. Follow these principles and you'll be in much, much, much better shape than most Americans — or most anyone. And all it will cost you is $2.20 for a pack of index cards — and you'll have 99 of them left over.
It's really hard to be poor (see Pollack's amazing interview on how being poor changes the way people think for more on that). But the lesson here is that once you have an income that you can live off of and save a little bit besides, managing your finances shouldn't be all that hard. The people making it complicated are often trying to make money off of you.


:kstategrad:

most mutual fund are crap. some arent, but you can balance risk just as good as a mutual fund on your own - without the fees associated and without paying taxes each yr on any gains.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on September 17, 2013, 09:37:55 AM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on September 17, 2013, 09:39:49 AM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO

oh, good plan dumbass.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on September 17, 2013, 09:45:27 AM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO

oh, good plan dumbass.

I'm talking like every cent to my name plus a loan from my grandma.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on September 17, 2013, 10:07:39 AM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO

oh, good plan dumbass.

I'm talking like every cent to my name plus a loan from my grandma.
Grandmother hater outed.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on September 17, 2013, 10:08:50 AM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO

oh, good plan dumbass.

I'm talking like every cent to my name plus a loan from my grandma.
#doit #surething
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on September 17, 2013, 10:12:42 AM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO

oh, good plan dumbass.

I'm talking like every cent to my name plus a loan from my grandma.

Short it for the first month, then buy as much as you can. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on September 17, 2013, 10:13:46 AM
Also, real estate
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on September 17, 2013, 11:26:49 AM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO

oh, good plan dumbass.

I'm talking like every cent to my name plus a loan from my grandma.

Short it for the first month, then buy as much as you can.
yes because it's guaranteed to follow the same trajectory as facebook.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on September 17, 2013, 11:31:18 AM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO

oh, good plan dumbass.
yes because it's guaranteed to follow the same trajectory as facebook.

I'm talking like every cent to my name plus a loan from my grandma.

Short it for the first month, then buy as much as you can.
in theory thats a great idea. in reality you are both dumbasses
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EMAWmeister on September 17, 2013, 11:39:43 AM
Are most financial advisors not held to a fiduciary standard?  :confused:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on September 17, 2013, 11:41:44 AM
in theory thats a great idea. in reality you are both dumbasses

lol
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on September 17, 2013, 11:43:37 AM
Are most financial advisors not held to a fiduciary standard?  :confused:
people tend to look out for there best interest.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on September 17, 2013, 11:50:06 AM
Quote from: stevedave
New to investing? Just put $50,000 into your bank account every month!

 :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EMAWmeister on September 17, 2013, 11:51:53 AM
Are most financial advisors not held to a fiduciary standard?  :confused:
people tend to look out for there best interest.

Seems to me like the best interest of an advisor would be to do what is best for the client, thus keeping the client's business.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on September 17, 2013, 11:52:24 AM
Are most financial advisors not held to a fiduciary standard?  :confused:
they aren't.  and it's something that needs to change.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on September 17, 2013, 11:57:37 AM
Are most financial advisors not held to a fiduciary standard?  :confused:
people tend to look out for there best interest.

Seems to me like the best interest of an advisor would be to do what is best for the client, thus keeping the client's business.
It would seem that way. But when it comes to sales is it really that way?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EMAWmeister on September 17, 2013, 11:59:14 AM
Are most financial advisors not held to a fiduciary standard?  :confused:
people tend to look out for there best interest.

Seems to me like the best interest of an advisor would be to do what is best for the client, thus keeping the client's business.
It would seem that way. But when it comes to sales is it really that way?

I mean unless you were desperate for immediate funds, it should be.  You're going to make more money off of a repeat customer than off of a larger commission.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on September 17, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
Are most financial advisors not held to a fiduciary standard?  :confused:
people tend to look out for there best interest.

Seems to me like the best interest of an advisor would be to do what is best for the client, thus keeping the client's business.
It would seem that way. But when it comes to sales is it really that way?

I mean unless you were desperate for immediate funds, it should be.  You're going to make more money off of a repeat customer than off of a larger commission.
yeah, that wasn't your question though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on September 17, 2013, 12:06:13 PM
Are most financial advisors not held to a fiduciary standard?  :confused:
people tend to look out for there best interest.

Seems to me like the best interest of an advisor would be to do what is best for the client, thus keeping the client's business.

lol
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on September 17, 2013, 12:24:12 PM
I might go all-in on Twitter's IPO

oh, good plan dumbass.

I'm talking like every cent to my name plus a loan from my grandma.

Short it for the first month, then buy as much as you can.
yes because it's guaranteed to follow the same trajectory as facebook.

it probably will
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on September 17, 2013, 12:33:13 PM
definitely re-iterates rams being one of the dumbest people on the board
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slucat on September 17, 2013, 12:56:09 PM
$6 trades with CapOne. Transfer funds instantly from CapOne Savings/Banking (used to be ING direct and used to have incredible savings account rates). Still an easy online bank and cheap trade thingy.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on September 17, 2013, 12:59:25 PM
definitely re-iterates rams being one of the dumbest people on the board
I can't tell if you:

A: missed my sarcasm
B: got my sarcasm but disagree with me
C: are just being an bad person for no reason :don'tcare:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on September 17, 2013, 02:22:19 PM
definitely re-iterates rams being one of the dumbest people on the board
I can't tell if you:

A: missed my sarcasm
B: got my sarcasm but disagree with me
C: are just being an bad person for no reason :don'tcare:

definitely re-iterates rams being one of the dumbest people on the board
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on September 19, 2013, 07:02:10 AM
Quote from:  fed
we're going to push back the easing by, like, a month

Quote from:  er'one
BUY ER'THING!

 :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on October 03, 2013, 04:33:50 PM
Quote
Here's what we now know about Twitter and its impending initial public offering:

It will trade under the symbol TWTR
The IPO will raise $1 billion
Jack Dorsey owns 4.9 percent of the company, Ev Williams 12 percent, and CEO Dick Costolo 1.6 percent. Poor Dick! Just kidding, that's still a lot.
Twitter is not profitable. It lost almost $80 million in the first six months of 2013, and has never been profitable
Twitter currently has 215 million monthly active users—less than expected.
CEO Dick Costolo draws an annual salary of $200,000, though it was just reduced to $14,000 this summer—he also made about $10 million in stock, so good deal overall.
None of Twitter's executives wrote a letter in the S-1 indicating why anyone should care.
Twitter claims only 5% of its accounts are fake, which seems very, very low.


Woooooooooof! Never mind, I'll take my monies elsewhere.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Catchacold on October 04, 2013, 12:56:45 PM
Ima buy sum that tweeter stock, mhhmm. all the kids talkin bout it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on October 04, 2013, 01:34:06 PM
johnny dubs, am i like gonna be so rich soon i wont have to worry about this stuff?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on October 04, 2013, 09:47:37 PM
heard on marketplace that some bankrupt stock, twtrq, was up 600% today.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on October 04, 2013, 11:49:49 PM
johnny dubs, am i like gonna be so rich soon i wont have to worry about this stuff?

Embrace the grind.  And invest as much as you possibly can.  And take my advice from after fattyfest.   
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on October 17, 2013, 10:42:24 PM
http://www.horizonkinetics.com/docs/Q3_2013_Commentary.pdf
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on October 18, 2013, 07:26:00 AM
http://www.horizonkinetics.com/docs/Q3_2013_Commentary.pdf

that's a pretty fun read
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on October 18, 2013, 09:09:22 AM
http://www.horizonkinetics.com/docs/Q3_2013_Commentary.pdf
the turnover ratio comparison on the first page is horribly flawed at best and totally misleading at worst.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on October 18, 2013, 09:10:08 AM
http://www.horizonkinetics.com/docs/Q3_2013_Commentary.pdf
the turnover ratio comparison on the first page is horribly flawed at best and totally misleading at worst.

yeah, that was stupid. could have been targetting that poriton of the write up at complete dumbasses though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on October 18, 2013, 09:12:58 AM
the stuff about the country specific index funds was pretty interesting though. not really surprising I guess. and the general tone of the piece was great. I mean, ultimately they are just shilling for their fund.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on October 18, 2013, 09:23:28 AM
the stuff about the country specific index funds was pretty interesting though. not really surprising I guess. and the general tone of the piece was great.
I thought there were a couple good points they made and I certainly agree with parts of it, but in the end, it's just like any quarterly commentary that comes from an investment company that's trying to sell you something: it's mostly biased and misleading.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on October 18, 2013, 09:23:46 AM
the stuff about the country specific index funds was pretty interesting though. not really surprising I guess. and the general tone of the piece was great. I mean, ultimately they are just shilling for their fund.

It was  a very interesting article, thank you for posting Steve Dave.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on October 18, 2013, 09:36:32 AM
the stuff about the country specific index funds was pretty interesting though. not really surprising I guess. and the general tone of the piece was great. I mean, ultimately they are just shilling for their fund.

It was  a very interesting article, thank you for posting Steve Dave.

you are welcome friend.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on October 18, 2013, 09:40:05 AM
I've accumulated some cash in my SIMPLE this year and want a stock that I know nothing about to invest in. Help me out here.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on October 18, 2013, 09:44:36 AM
I've accumulated some cash in my SIMPLE this year and want a stock that I know nothing about to invest in. Help me out here.

acot
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on October 18, 2013, 09:45:33 AM
just randomly pound out 4 letters (all the 3 or less letter ones will be boring) until you find one that is actually a valid symbol. apparently that one is some sort of indian cotton company or something. I say go for it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on October 18, 2013, 10:00:43 AM
Whenever I have extra cash I buy KSU.  All day err day.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Brock Landers on October 18, 2013, 10:36:42 AM
Whenever I have extra cash I buy KSU.  All day err day.

Dunno, they seem small-timey for a railroad stock.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQc1ipxfdHTWCJU2YlJfsgUQORn0uTzLr0hpSEcWEbhTQGR00Yz1g)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on October 18, 2013, 11:34:45 AM
Daily chart tho
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on October 19, 2013, 11:06:06 AM
the turnover ratio comparison on the first page is horribly flawed at best and totally misleading at worst.

yeah, that was stupid. could have been targetting that poriton of the write up at complete dumbasses though.

i don't know how you came to the conclusion that the ratio is flawed.  i didn't see any information on how that data were compiled or the ratio calculated, so i don't see how that conclusion could be derived based on the information within the pdf itself.

as regards to the dumbasses.  while far be it from me to suggest rich people and financial services providers can't be dumbasses, the investment vehicle is not readily available to small retail investors.  it designed for managed money and 1%ers (i accept, though, that the commentary is probably not intended solely, perhaps even principally, for their investors).

regarding the misleading, i don't think you understood the reason those data were presented.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on October 19, 2013, 11:50:50 AM
you can't compare the turnover ratio of individual equities to that of a fund.  the turnover ratio of a fund (mutual fund, etf, managed portfolios like Horizons, hedge funds, etc.) relates to how often the individual holdings in the portfolio itself are turned over.  in other words how frequently are they buying and selling stocks within the portfolio.  the turnover ratio of an individual equity, as it states in the commentary, is the proportion of outstanding shares traded each year.  comparing the 2 doesn't make any sense.  it's apples and oranges. furthermore, they seemed to have used the individual equity definition of turnover ratio and applied it to the etf's.  that's either incredibly stupid, thoroughly confusing, completely disingenuous, or all three. 

I suppose their analysis of international etfs hold water, but I'm not sure people invest in those funds thinking that they're participating specifically in the rise in local demand.  if that's the reason you're buying a country specific etf, then I guess that's good information.

The points they make on market-value weighted indices are good ones, but not ground-breaking.  the idea of equal-weight indices is as old as etfs themselves.

finally, the graph at the end comparing the performance of what I assume is their flagship investment strategy to that of the S&P 500 is laughable.  the S&P 500 is made of 500 of the largest, most widely held corporations in the U.S. their index appears to be made up of companies that have very large insider holdings.  while their are very good reasons to believe that closely held companies make for superior investments, they are also usually incredibly small (most likely micro-caps).  as companies grow larger, the proportion of insider ownership obviously declines.  I think this goes without saying, but obviously micro-cap companies in general are going to perform much better over a long period of time than larger corporations. they are, however, much more volatile in the short run...as you can clearly see from the graph.  a fair comparison would be their index vs. the most prominent index that contains stocks of equal market cap (russell 2000?)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on October 19, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
you can't compare the turnover ratio of individual equities to that of a fund.  the turnover ratio of a fund (mutual fund, etf, managed portfolios like Horizons, hedge funds, etc.) relates to how often the individual holdings in the portfolio itself are turned over.  in other words how frequently are they buying and selling stocks within the portfolio.  the turnover ratio of an individual equity, as it states in the commentary, is the proportion of outstanding shares traded each year.  comparing the 2 doesn't make any sense.  it's apples and oranges. furthermore, they seemed to have used the individual equity definition of turnover ratio and applied it to the etf's.  that's either incredibly stupid, thoroughly confusing, completely disingenuous, or all three.

they stated what they were comparing and why, so i don't see how it could be considered confusing or disingenuous.  stupid is in the eye of the beholder - it made sense to me.  without trying to be too condescending, i think you probably simply didn't realize the point being made, or it would have made sense to you as well.

if any part was confusing or extraneous, it was the inclusion of the "average domestic equity mutual fund" among the data.  the comparison of the etfs to the individual equities logically follows and supports the point being argued.



I suppose their analysis of international etfs hold water, but I'm not sure people invest in those funds thinking that they're participating specifically in the rise in local demand.  if that's the reason you're buying a country specific etf, then I guess that's good information.

The points they make on market-value weighted indices are good ones, but not ground-breaking.  the idea of equal-weight indices is as old as etfs themselves.

i don't think they ever present themselves as breaking new ground.



finally, the graph at the end comparing the performance of what I assume is their flagship investment strategy to that of the S&P 500 is laughable.  the S&P 500 is made of 500 of the largest, most widely held corporations in the U.S. their index appears to be made up of companies that have very large insider holdings.  while their are very good reasons to believe that closely held companies make for superior investments, they are also usually incredibly small (most likely micro-caps).  as companies grow larger, the proportion of insider ownership obviously declines.  I think this goes without saying, but obviously micro-cap companies in general are going to perform much better over a long period of time than larger corporations. they are, however, much more volatile in the short run...as you can clearly see from the graph.  a fair comparison would be their index vs. the most prominent index that contains stocks of equal market cap (russell 2000?)

the graph you're discussing doesn't present the results of any of their investment vehicles.  it present the results of an index (that they created, to be sure) of equities with high insider ownership vs the s&p 500.  certainly you could present it against other indices besides the s&p 500, but there is nothing deceitful in choosing a large cap index.  the avg weighted market cap of the equities in their index appears to be 17 billion.  in the s&p 500 it is 28 billion, in the russell 2000 it is 1.6 billion (not sure i pulled apples to apples numbers due to weighting, but i think the general size range is a fair comparison).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on October 19, 2013, 04:33:14 PM
was looking into the horizon kinetics people a little more and saw that they do offer mutual funds under a different subsidiary (or parent, dunno, seems pretty convoluted).  so, my point about how they don't market their ideas to retail investors was not accurate.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Catchacold on October 20, 2013, 11:11:34 AM
Whenever I have extra cash I buy KSU.  All day err day.

Dunno, they seem small-timey for a railroad stock.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQc1ipxfdHTWCJU2YlJfsgUQORn0uTzLr0hpSEcWEbhTQGR00Yz1g)

Up over 200% since I bought some.  :party:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on October 20, 2013, 12:42:36 PM
was looking into the horizon kinetics people a little more and saw that they do offer mutual funds under a different subsidiary (or parent, dunno, seems pretty convoluted).  so, my point about how they don't market their ideas to retail investors was not accurate.
I was just looking at their explanation of the ISE wealth index.  it seems to be an index they tout as as an "inside ownership" index.  but some of their sample holdings from the sales piece I saw listed companies like google, viacom and news corp...all of which have insider ownership at approximately 0% (when you round to the nearest percent).  so I'm not really sure what their angle or strategy is, but it seems to be that of investing in companies with very wealthy founders with recognizable names.  I certainly don't understand what the reasoning behind that is, but I guess everybody has their own weird strategy that they think works, so whatever.

also, you're right.  I clearly don't understand what their point was with the turnover ratio information.  they seem to be pointing out that high frequency trading is responsible for most of the pricing in the market (no crap) and that the largest etfs that track the s&p have the highest frequency of trading (again, no crap).  I just don't really understand what their point is. what point were they trying to make?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on October 20, 2013, 01:40:58 PM
what point were they trying to make?

that a significant, and growing, proportion of equity transactions are being driven by index tracking vehicles, in which transactions are driven by things like inflows, outflows, weighting, etc., and in which the underlying value of the equity being bought and sold is not a consideration for at least one party in the transaction.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rams on October 20, 2013, 03:04:59 PM
what point were they trying to make?

that a significant, and growing, proportion of equity transactions are being driven by index tracking vehicles, in which transactions are driven by things like inflows, outflows, weighting, etc., and in which the underlying value of the equity being bought and sold is not a consideration for at least one party in the transaction.
ok.  so what?  are they implying that equities held by large index funds (ie. companies in the s&p 500) are completely misvalued because of this?  if so, that's a pretty dumb argument.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on October 20, 2013, 03:09:44 PM
i own this fund that is co-managed by an EMAW stud.  50% return YTD.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=bufox&ei=GDhkUsjMMoyOlAPFqAE
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on October 20, 2013, 03:28:43 PM
ok.  so what?  are they implying that equities held by large index funds (ie. companies in the s&p 500) are completely misvalued because of this?  if so, that's a pretty dumb argument.

you are really reaching on trying to argue against their thesis.  they're just pointing out what they consider a potential source of distortion in the marketplace.  it doesn't have to lead to a "complete misvaluation" to be an interesting point to consider.

again, as regards to dumb, that's in the eye of the beholder.  i didn't find it to be dumb at all.  completely the opposite, in fact.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on October 20, 2013, 10:11:44 PM
ok.  so what?  are they implying that equities held by large index funds (ie. companies in the s&p 500) are completely misvalued because of this?  if so, that's a pretty dumb argument.

you are really reaching on trying to argue against their thesis.  they're just pointing out what they consider a potential source of distortion in the marketplace.  it doesn't have to lead to a "complete misvaluation" to be an interesting point to consider.

again, as regards to dumb, that's in the eye of the beholder.  i didn't find it to be dumb at all.  completely the opposite, in fact.

I agree and have thought of this myself.  It's important to remember that I'm considered a genius in some circles. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on December 27, 2013, 06:37:22 PM
http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayres/Life-Cycle%20Investing%20Working%20Paper.pdf
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 06wildcat on December 27, 2013, 07:19:23 PM
http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayres/Life-Cycle%20Investing%20Working%20Paper.pdf

The average working schlub can be bothered to take an hour or two a month to do retirement planning, especially in their 20s and 30s, they're never going to understand leverage let alone do it properly.

My mortgage broker had a hard time understanding why I put down 5 percent and took the PMI hit (they wouldn't allow a bridge loan) of about $650 per year when the other 15 percent could be parked in a medium-yield utility stock and earn about $1,000. And no, the added interest costs aren't really a factor since PMI will be retired in 3 years from principal payments and asset appreciation and the 30-year rate is low enough inflation will make any difference trivial by then.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on December 27, 2013, 07:31:25 PM
http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayres/Life-Cycle%20Investing%20Working%20Paper.pdf

The average working schlub can be bothered to take an hour or two a month to do retirement planning, especially in their 20s and 30s, they're never going to understand leverage let alone do it properly.

My mortgage broker had a hard time understanding why I put down 5 percent and took the PMI hit (they wouldn't allow a bridge loan) of about $650 per year when the other 15 percent could be parked in a medium-yield utility stock and earn about $1,000. And no, the added interest costs aren't really a factor since PMI will be retired in 3 years from principal payments and asset appreciation and the 30-year rate is low enough inflation will make any difference trivial by then.

lol, you showed them you sly son of a gun
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: WonderMeal on December 28, 2013, 09:09:53 PM
The Best Financial Advice I Ever Got (or Gave) by the WSJ:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304244904579276963442898436

For anyone new to investing, read the article linked above.

Quote from: John C. Bogle, founder of Vanguard Group
The best way to own stocks is to own an index fund.

Quote from: Jane Mendillo, chief executive of Harvard Management Co., the university's endowment

"Take the long-term view" was the best advice I ever received. If you take the long-term view, you will see things others miss. Nearly everyone thinks about next month, next quarter. Jack Meyer, who ran [the] Harvard endowment for 15 years, taught me that when you think about multiple years or even decades you see opportunities to create value others might not see, and you make different judgments today as a result.


Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 06wildcat on December 29, 2013, 06:39:22 PM
http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayres/Life-Cycle%20Investing%20Working%20Paper.pdf

The average working schlub can be bothered to take an hour or two a month to do retirement planning, especially in their 20s and 30s, they're never going to understand leverage let alone do it properly.

My mortgage broker had a hard time understanding why I put down 5 percent and took the PMI hit (they wouldn't allow a bridge loan) of about $650 per year when the other 15 percent could be parked in a medium-yield utility stock and earn about $1,000. And no, the added interest costs aren't really a factor since PMI will be retired in 3 years from principal payments and asset appreciation and the 30-year rate is low enough inflation will make any difference trivial by then.

lol, you showed them you sly son of a gun

My basic point is asking average investors to use leverage is theoretically a good idea, in practice it would not end well. Debt is a fantastic tool to build wealth with, it's also a good way to remain poor forever.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 02, 2014, 11:52:13 AM
Anyone have any suggestions on a Excel Template with most of the retirement planning formula's already embedded?

I usually use the different financial calculators on the web but it would be easiest to have everything in one place.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 02, 2014, 12:20:07 PM
like, what are you looking for?  i can't help you find one (and wouldn't, if i could), but i'm curious as to what you want.  i have a hard time imagining what use one could serve.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 02, 2014, 12:29:02 PM
Anyone have any suggestions on a Excel Template with most of the retirement planning formula's already embedded?

I usually use the different financial calculators on the web but it would be easiest to have everything in one place.

Quote from:  .xlsx
        A                    B              C
1 what I have / % to goal / what I need
-----------------------------------------
2 pud amount /  =A2/C2    / huge amount
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 02, 2014, 12:30:58 PM
what I have / % to goal / what I need
-----------------------------------------
pud amount /  =A2/C2    / huge amount
[/quote]

you still have to answer my question, benji.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 02, 2014, 12:33:18 PM
like, what are you looking for?  i can't help you find one (and wouldn't, if i could), but i'm curious as to what you want. 

 :lol: sys is an absolute treasure
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on January 02, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
how about excel.. I don't think it properly gets the credit it deserves.. what a tool!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 02, 2014, 12:36:24 PM
Anyone have any suggestions on a Excel Template with most of the retirement planning formula's already embedded?

I usually use the different financial calculators on the web but it would be easiest to have everything in one place.

Quote from:  .xlsx
        A                    B              C
1 what I have / % to goal / what I need
-----------------------------------------
2 pud amount /  =A2/C2    / huge amount

also, don't forget to format cell B2 to a % or you will need a math whiz to tell you what it says
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 02, 2014, 12:47:30 PM
Anyone have any suggestions on a Excel Template with most of the retirement planning formula's already embedded?

I usually use the different financial calculators on the web but it would be easiest to have everything in one place.

I made my own.  Simple enough. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 02, 2014, 01:38:41 PM



I made my own.  Simple enough. 

I started doing this but I figured there has got to be something out there I can download that has the formula's built in. 

like, what are you looking for?  i can't help you find one (and wouldn't, if i could), but i'm curious as to what you want.  i have a hard time imagining what use one could serve.

Looking for something that has inflation built in to the equation along with the ability to change contribution amounts over time. The basic ones on the web do not adjust the contribution amount for inflation, ie assumes you will invest 500 a month for 40 years but that $500 does not adjust for inflation.     

Basically, assuming 7% annual return/3% inflation, how much would I need invested at age 45 to quit my job and become a teacher. I want to run different variables that assume no more contributions after that date or different contribution amounts etc etc to see what the numbers look like.


Example- I want X amount of 2014 dollars a year in retirement starting in 2052. How much would I need saved by age 45 assuming no more contributions after age 45. How much would I need saved assuming $100 a month contribution after age 45 etc etc etc. The first part is pretty easy, I'm just looking for a formula that adjusts for changing contributions amounts over the time period.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 02, 2014, 01:40:12 PM
That's still pretty simple to do yourself.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on January 02, 2014, 01:41:19 PM
yeah, do you excel at anything other than fishing and owning adorable creatures?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: UCHADBRO on January 02, 2014, 01:46:19 PM
Excel is a magical tool.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 02, 2014, 01:51:31 PM
That's still pretty simple to do yourself.

Yeah, but it would prob save me about an hour if I could just download it. 

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on January 02, 2014, 01:51:45 PM
www.mint.com (http://www.mint.com)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 02, 2014, 01:54:31 PM
just invest as much as you can as early as you can, for maximum returns and/or maximum flexibility.  i don't see much use to the projections, given the arbitrariness of the input assumptions and the flexibility in the goals of the output.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 02, 2014, 01:55:55 PM
just invest as much as you can as early as you can, for maximum returns and/or maximum flexibility.  i don't see much use to the projections, given the arbitrariness of the input assumptions and the flexibility in the goals of the output.

this is pretty much my approach.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 02, 2014, 02:04:04 PM
Ben ji I just jpeg'd my sheet for you.

(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/1489337_10151861748557686_234897803_n.jpg?oh=2f1a34551b36ec9ee5979a4da9073025&oe=52C7E16F)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: mocat on January 02, 2014, 02:06:16 PM
love that background image emo
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 02, 2014, 02:10:04 PM
dolla dolla make you holla! 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 02, 2014, 02:17:35 PM
just invest as much as you can as early as you can, for maximum returns and/or maximum flexibility.  i don't see much use to the projections, given the arbitrariness of the input assumptions and the flexibility in the goals of the output.

This is currently my approach but I want something more detailed to set guidelines for how much I need to invest each month for various scenarios.

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: treysolid on January 02, 2014, 02:45:12 PM
My company is revamping their retirement plan for 2014. We used to have a cash balance account that would get ~ 2K dumped into it every year plus an investment account where the company would give you a 50% match up to your 6% contribution. The interest rate on the cash balance plan is the greater of 5.5% or whatever the current rate for the 10-year bond is.

Now they are trashing the cash balance account and giving us a straight up 5% contribution to the investment account no matter what we contribute. Seems like a much better approach.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The1BigWillie on January 02, 2014, 02:49:26 PM
How much money do I want to have when I die?  $0.00 

 :billdance:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 02, 2014, 02:53:01 PM
My company is revamping their retirement plan for 2014. We used to have a cash balance account that would get ~ 2K dumped into it every year plus an investment account where the company would give you a 50% match up to your 6% contribution. The interest rate on the cash balance plan is the greater of 5.5% or whatever the current rate for the 10-year bond is.

Now they are trashing the cash balance account and giving us a straight up 5% contribution to the investment account no matter what we contribute. Seems like a much better approach.

Only if you make more than 100k a year

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: UCHADBRO on January 02, 2014, 04:55:11 PM
How much money do I want to have when I die?  $0.00 

 :billdance:

That seems like an optimal strategy
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 07, 2014, 04:41:00 PM
Messing around with this right now, looks cool.

www.futureadvisor.com

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303506404577448503218010424
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 18, 2014, 12:15:48 AM
couple of semi-followups.  first one is long.


http://bwater.com/Uploads/FileManager/research/how-the-economic-machine-works/ray_dalio__how_the_economic_machine_works__leveragings_and_deleveragings.pdf

http://www.horizonkinetics.com/docs/Q4_2013_Commentary.pdf

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 24, 2014, 04:29:47 PM
Quote
Based on the results from our empirical study, it appears that the preference shift towards index fund investing is reducing the informational efficiency of stock prices.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1769220
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 24, 2014, 04:48:06 PM
Quote
Based on the results from our empirical study, it appears that the preference shift towards index fund investing is reducing the informational efficiency of stock prices.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1769220

So I was thinking about the increasing popularity of Index funds the other day and have some questions....

Index funds are basically a collection of stocks meant to mimic the movement of the a certain index(SP500, Dow, etc) correct?

Lets say right now only 10%(Completely made up percent) of individual investors actually buy Index funds now but the gospel is spreading and soon 50% of individual investors are buying index funds instead of mutual funds.

Wouldnt this lead to the stocks in the index funds being overvalued(and then crashing) compared to other stocks not included in the Index's?

Do Index funds adjust for this?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 24, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
ben ji, if you read the paper, they discuss that overvaluation would be predicted to dissipate due to arbitraging investors.  they speculate that it has not happened (not happened enough to remove the effect) because the arbitraging investors are not attracted to the opportunity due to the long and unpredictable time frame over which the overvaluation might reverse.

presumably, if passive funds continue to increase to the degree you mention (50% of total invested funds), the arbitrage would become proportionally more attractive and would begin to attract more investors, acting to reverse any overvaluation.


the market should correct itself.  afaik, no index funds attempt to hedge anything to correct any possible effect themselves.  but they could, if investors became interested in that - and willing to pay a little for it.  you could perhaps consider fundamental weighting an attempt to reduce similar effects.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 29, 2014, 08:38:02 AM
Just saw your response, thanks sys.

Anyone know what this MyRA deal Obama mentioned in the state of the union speech last night?

Quote
Obama will also promote his proposal to create a program to help Americans who do not have traditional IRAs or 401K retirement accounts to save money for retirement.

Later in the day he will travel to a U.S. Steel plant in West Mifflin, Pennsylvania, where he will discuss his savings proposals. Administration officials said the plant was an example of a place that offered very good retirement accounts.

Obama said in his speech he would direct the Treasury Department to create a savings bond-like instrument called MyRA, which would have a guaranteed return without risk of losing money.

 Is it basically buying Gov Bonds in a tax sheltered account?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 29, 2014, 08:40:55 AM
Who cares?  You don't want it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 29, 2014, 08:47:26 AM
Who cares?  You don't want it.

Well if we don't know what it is how do you know you don't want it? HUH?!?! Yeah, that's what I thought, bud.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 29, 2014, 08:49:21 AM
Here let me help you:  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2014/01/28/obama-state-of-the-union-myra-savings-plan/4992743/
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 29, 2014, 09:15:01 AM
Here let me help you:  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2014/01/28/obama-state-of-the-union-myra-savings-plan/4992743/

Gracias

Quote
Safe: The new savings bonds would have its principal guaranteed by the U.S. government, much like a traditional savings bond.

Tax benefits: The MyRA bond would be like a Roth IRA: Your contributions would not be tax-deductible, but your earnings would be free from tax when you withdraw it. As with a Roth, your contributions can be taken out tax-free at any time.

Affordable: Minimum initial investment could be as low as $25, and subsequent investments could be as little as $5, through payroll deduction. Savers can keep the same account when they change jobs.

Rates: Savers will earn interest at the same variable interest rate as the federal employees' Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) Government Securities Investment Fund. The fund earned 1.74% last year.

Availability: The MyRA would be open to households earning up to $191,000 a year through their employers. Employers won't incur any cost to offer the MyRAs. You'll be able to save up to $15,000 a year for up to 30 years before transferring to a private Roth IRA.

So basically this will just save lazy people the step of setting up their own IRA/Deposits by having it done with payroll deductions but they can only buy Gov Bonds.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Whale on January 29, 2014, 10:09:14 AM
Tried to work through some scenarios where a myRA would be useful (at least based on the info released so far), but can't come up with much.  After maxing Roth and 401k, you're still going to be better off investing in an IRA and paying taxes on eventual withdrawls, unless you're really, really risk averse.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 29, 2014, 10:14:52 AM
Tried to work through some scenarios where a myRA would be useful (at least based on the info released so far), but can't come up with much.  After maxing Roth and 401k, you're still going to be better off investing in an IRA and paying taxes on eventual withdrawls, unless you're really, really risk averse.

I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates. I may look into using the MyRA as a substitute but that's about the only thing I can think of. Would all depend on how easy it is to make withdrawls.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 30, 2014, 12:47:40 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 30, 2014, 08:13:50 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

I'm not living in my parents basement anymore sys, got a dog and house to take care of now. Big Boi stuff ya know?


Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 30, 2014, 08:58:04 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

I'm not living in my parents basement anymore sys, got a dog and house to take care of now. Big Boi stuff ya know?

He's saying invest it in something with more upside.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 30, 2014, 09:13:01 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

I'm not living in my parents basement anymore sys, got a dog and house to take care of now. Big Boi stuff ya know?

He's saying invest it in something with more upside.

This isn't really "investing" money, more for money that sits around in case my furnace/AC/Car breaks down or something.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on January 30, 2014, 09:37:33 AM
I know.  But I followed sys advice and made like $600 in the meantime before I needed it to pay for grad school.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 30, 2014, 09:39:34 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

I'm not living in my parents basement anymore sys, got a dog and house to take care of now. Big Boi stuff ya know?

He's saying invest it in something with more upside.

This isn't really "investing" money, more for money that sits around in case my furnace/AC/Car breaks down or something.

Just throw it in a Roth and if the crap hits the fan you can still pull your principal.  Or you can become my butler.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 30, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

I'm not living in my parents basement anymore sys, got a dog and house to take care of now. Big Boi stuff ya know?

He's saying invest it in something with more upside.

This isn't really "investing" money, more for money that sits around in case my furnace/AC/Car breaks down or something.

Just throw it in a Roth and if the crap hits the fan you can still pull your principal.  Or you can become my butler.

Yeah, I thought of that but I don't want to get in the habit of making withdrawls from my Roth. First its because you need a new heater, then its because you want to go to vegas...next thing you know you've got 5k bet on black hoping the roulette ball bounces your way.  :pray:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 30, 2014, 09:46:33 AM
Well ya you always bet on black.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 30, 2014, 10:29:09 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

hmm, interesting. I may consider this.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on January 30, 2014, 11:23:07 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

hmm, interesting. I may consider this.
I have an emergency fund, but I have it in a very conservative index fund and it made good returns last year, it just doesn't make sense to have your money making 0.8% when you could be making much higher returns. Even if you lose a little bit short term, you'll come out way ahead long term. I guess you just need to ask yourself realistically how often will you need that money. If you're car is a pos, and your furnace is 30 years old and it'll really hurt to lose a couple hundred bucks then keep it in your savings account, otherwise put that money to work :dunno:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on January 30, 2014, 11:35:00 AM
what racquetcat said
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 30, 2014, 11:41:35 AM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

hmm, interesting. I may consider this.
I have an emergency fund, but I have it in a very conservative index fund and it made good returns last year, it just doesn't make sense to have your money making 0.8% when you could be making much higher returns. Even if you lose a little bit short term, you'll come out way ahead long term. I guess you just need to ask yourself realistically how often will you need that money. If you're car is a pos, and your furnace is 30 years old and it'll really hurt to lose a couple hundred bucks then keep it in your savings account, otherwise put that money to work :dunno:

Thanks, will definitely look into it. Any suggestions on "Conservative" Index funds? I'm guessing there is a category of them in my brokerage acct but I have not looked yet.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on January 30, 2014, 08:52:19 PM
I currently have payroll deductions that go directly to a savings/emergency fund account that has terrible interest rates.

don't do that.  you're young, take some risk, make some money.  you'll come out way ahead.

hmm, interesting. I may consider this.
I have an emergency fund, but I have it in a very conservative index fund and it made good returns last year, it just doesn't make sense to have your money making 0.8% when you could be making much higher returns. Even if you lose a little bit short term, you'll come out way ahead long term. I guess you just need to ask yourself realistically how often will you need that money. If you're car is a pos, and your furnace is 30 years old and it'll really hurt to lose a couple hundred bucks then keep it in your savings account, otherwise put that money to work :dunno:

Thanks, will definitely look into it. Any suggestions on "Conservative" Index funds? I'm guessing there is a category of them in my brokerage acct but I have not looked yet.

well ben ji, knowing everything about you that I do (awesome dad, cute dog, loves to fish, crappy looking kitchen cabinets, lots of flowers in your yard, friend to chipmunks, dog poop picker upper, girlfriend, hot bod, makes bank (cause emaw grad)) I would recommend something along the lines of this: 
https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-funds/lifestrategy/#/mini/overview/0724

or if you're looking for more or less risk take a look at any of the 4 funds on that page, I'm sure whoever you invest through will have something similar to those
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 30, 2014, 08:57:15 PM
benji don't invest in anything that includes a certain % bonds.  at your age, don't invest in bonds unless you have a specific thesis in which you have high conviction.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 06:43:31 AM
benji don't invest in anything that includes a certain % bonds.  at your age, don't invest in bonds unless you have a specific thesis in which you have high conviction.
I'm 42 with a family and I don't invest in bonds.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on January 31, 2014, 06:48:26 AM
Vanguard S&P 500 index is the gold standard.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on January 31, 2014, 06:51:14 AM
Vanguard S&P 500 index is the gold standard.

For old people
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on January 31, 2014, 09:58:48 AM
benji don't invest in anything that includes a certain % bonds.  at your age, don't invest in bonds unless you have a specific thesis in which you have high conviction.
I'm 42 with a family and I don't invest in bonds.
What kind of stuff do you invest in?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 10:13:30 AM
benji don't invest in anything that includes a certain % bonds.  at your age, don't invest in bonds unless you have a specific thesis in which you have high conviction.
I'm 42 with a family and I don't invest in bonds.
What kind of stuff do you invest in?
Ball bearings

No. I know Ramsey gets a lot of crap on gE for some of his teachings, but I use to listen to him when with some regularity when I was younger. I loved hearing some of the people that turned their mess around. Anyway, he preaches investing in the following manner:
25% each in the following fund classes:
Growth
Growth & Income
Aggressive Growth
International
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on January 31, 2014, 10:31:46 AM
benji don't invest in anything that includes a certain % bonds.  at your age, don't invest in bonds unless you have a specific thesis in which you have high conviction.
I'm 42 with a family and I don't invest in bonds.
What kind of stuff do you invest in?
Ball bearings

No. I know Ramsey gets a lot of crap on gE for some of his teachings, but I use to listen to him when with some regularity when I was younger. I loved hearing some of the people that turned their mess around. Anyway, he preaches investing in the following manner:
25% each in the following fund classes:
Growth
Growth & Income
Aggressive Growth
International
I took the class, and he has some good principles, I just don't follow everything he teaches, I didn't remember that though, thanks!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 10:39:00 AM
I will also catch some crap for this, but I have a decent amount of money with an investment firm. The strategy is agreed upon and they invest in individual stocks of companies that pay dividends. It is great to follow what is happening in multiple companies, but not having to take the time to do all of the research prior to making the investments. It gives me time to bbs and be a husband/dad.

My personal philosophy is that I plan to have a shitload of money when I retire, so I won't move much to conservative investments as I get older. I would rather stay in growth/aggressive growth and leave shitloads of money for my kids. If the market takes a huge downturn while I am retired, I want to have enough money that it doesn't change anything in my day to day living. If you retire with just enough money invested to get through the rest of your life, then you should move most of it to much more conservative investments as you age. I work with some people who were planning on retiring in 2008 and 2009. They didn't have a bunch saved up, just enough to retire; however, they left what they did have in more aggressive investments as they neared retirement. They are still working today.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 31, 2014, 10:43:10 AM
My personal philosophy is that I plan to have a shitload of money when I retire

my philosophy was to have just a small amount of money when I retire but after reading this I'm changing it to a shitload. dobber has convinced me.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 10:45:12 AM
retiring with a shitload means you worked too long.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 10:46:59 AM
My personal philosophy is that I plan to have a shitload of money when I retire

my philosophy was to have just a small amount of money when I retire but after reading this I'm changing it to a shitload. dobber has convinced me.
You're welcome.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 31, 2014, 10:50:08 AM
retiring with a shitload means you worked too long.

a windfall is also part of my strategy
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 31, 2014, 10:53:43 AM
How much does a house on 40 acres(Stocked farm pond duh) in the flint hills cost? I'll need exactly that much to retire....but but but, ben ji, how will you pay for other stuff like bills and spending money?

Dont care, gone fishing.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 10:54:46 AM
a windfall is also part of my strategy

that's the best plan there is.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 10:58:39 AM
retiring with a shitload means you worked too long.
I see it differently. A shitload means that you don't have to worry about money at all in retirement and you can do whatever you want to. If you have just enough money, then you need to be more cautious. A shitload is the way to go.

It is probably the difference of working an extra 4-5 years on average.

Simple Example: $2MM is just enough. You can withdraw 4% annually ($80k), live a decent life, and probably not run out of money, but you are limited to $80k annually.

However, if you work an additional 5 years and invest an additional $15k annually, you will have just over $3MM. Withdrawing the same 4% gives you $120,000 annually and you will probably not run out of money.

(this is all just to show a simple example. there are plenty of holes in this and it is not reflective of my more in depth plan)

EDIT: Which entails windfalls and such.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 31, 2014, 11:00:36 AM
retiring with a shitload means you worked too long.
I see it differently. A shitload means that you don't have to worry about money at all in retirement and you can do whatever you want to. If you have just enough money, then you need to be more cautious. A shitload is the way to go.

It is probably the difference of working an extra 4-5 years on average.

Simple Example: $2MM is just enough. You can withdraw 4% annually ($80k), live a decent life, and probably not run out of money, but you are limited to $80k annually.

However, if you work an additional 5 years and invest an additional $15k annually, you will have just over $3MM. Withdrawing the same 4% gives you $120,000 annually and you will probably not run out of money.

(this is all just to show a simple example. there are plenty of holes in this and it is not reflective of my more in depth plan)

Dobber, I'll let you fish on my flint hills farm pond if you pay my property tax, k?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 31, 2014, 11:09:24 AM
How much does a house on 40 acres(Stocked farm pond duh) in the flint hills cost? I'll need exactly that much to retire....but but but, ben ji, how will you pay for other stuff like bills and spending money?

Dont care, gone fishing.

Don't buy it just pay mortgage on it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 31, 2014, 11:11:57 AM
How much does a house on 40 acres(Stocked farm pond duh) in the flint hills cost? I'll need exactly that much to retire....but but but, ben ji, how will you pay for other stuff like bills and spending money?

Dont care, gone fishing.

Don't buy it just pay mortgage on it.

Emo, I'll give you unlimited fishing and hunting access to my land if you pay my electric bill, k?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 11:14:47 AM
retiring with a shitload means you worked too long.
I see it differently. A shitload means that you don't have to worry about money at all in retirement and you can do whatever you want to. If you have just enough money, then you need to be more cautious. A shitload is the way to go.

It is probably the difference of working an extra 4-5 years on average.

Simple Example: $2MM is just enough. You can withdraw 4% annually ($80k), live a decent life, and probably not run out of money, but you are limited to $80k annually.

However, if you work an additional 5 years and invest an additional $15k annually, you will have just over $3MM. Withdrawing the same 4% gives you $120,000 annually and you will probably not run out of money.

(this is all just to show a simple example. there are plenty of holes in this and it is not reflective of my more in depth plan)

Dobber, I'll let you fish on my flint hills farm pond if you pay my property tax, k?
Possibility. Let's stay in touch.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 31, 2014, 11:16:28 AM
How much does a house on 40 acres(Stocked farm pond duh) in the flint hills cost? I'll need exactly that much to retire....but but but, ben ji, how will you pay for other stuff like bills and spending money?

Dont care, gone fishing.

Don't buy it just pay mortgage on it.

Emo, I'll give you unlimited fishing and hunting access to my land if you pay my electric bill, k?

the crowd is going to be like spring break at disney world by the time ben ji gets this thing financed. no thanks.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 31, 2014, 11:18:05 AM
How much does a house on 40 acres(Stocked farm pond duh) in the flint hills cost? I'll need exactly that much to retire....but but but, ben ji, how will you pay for other stuff like bills and spending money?

Dont care, gone fishing.

Don't buy it just pay mortgage on it.

Emo, I'll give you unlimited fishing and hunting access to my land if you pay my electric bill, k?

the crowd is going to be like spring break at disney world by the time ben ji gets this thing financed. no thanks.

SD, I'm planning on stocking the pond with Bullhead catfish and will let you borrow my zebco to fish anytime if you pay for my propane, k?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 11:19:09 AM
How much does a house on 40 acres(Stocked farm pond duh) in the flint hills cost? I'll need exactly that much to retire....but but but, ben ji, how will you pay for other stuff like bills and spending money?

Dont care, gone fishing.

Don't buy it just pay mortgage on it.

Emo, I'll give you unlimited fishing and hunting access to my land if you pay my electric bill, k?

the crowd is going to be like spring break at disney world by the time ben ji gets this thing financed. no thanks.
You haven't been invited!

EDIT: NM
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Tobias on January 31, 2014, 11:19:39 AM
quit following dobber around
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 31, 2014, 11:21:45 AM
How much does a house on 40 acres(Stocked farm pond duh) in the flint hills cost? I'll need exactly that much to retire....but but but, ben ji, how will you pay for other stuff like bills and spending money?

Dont care, gone fishing.

Don't buy it just pay mortgage on it.

Emo, I'll give you unlimited fishing and hunting access to my land if you pay my electric bill, k?

Ya man.  You're going to need a lot more than 40 acres though.  Do like 2500 acres instead and I'll manage the grazing for you.  Also provide solar powered water pumps.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 11:52:46 AM
quit following dobber around
:horrorsurprise: :fatty: :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 12:30:07 PM
retiring with a shitload means you worked too long.
I see it differently. A shitload means that you don't have to worry about money at all in retirement and you can do whatever you want to. If you have just enough money, then you need to be more cautious. A shitload is the way to go.

It is probably the difference of working an extra 4-5 years on average.

Simple Example: $2MM is just enough. You can withdraw 4% annually ($80k), live a decent life, and probably not run out of money, but you are limited to $80k annually.

However, if you work an additional 5 years and invest an additional $15k annually, you will have just over $3MM. Withdrawing the same 4% gives you $120,000 annually and you will probably not run out of money.

(this is all just to show a simple example. there are plenty of holes in this and it is not reflective of my more in depth plan)

EDIT: Which entails windfalls and such.

you don't need that much money.  you're wasting your life because you're obsessed with security.  you can (should) probably retire right now.


think of your probable remaining life span.  take 100 and divide by those years.  consider the resulting number to be a percentage.  would you assume that percentage chance of dying sometime this year for your annual salary?  if not, why are you willing to sell a year of your life for the same price?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 12:56:03 PM
I'm relatively new to investing.  I get my company 401k match and everything but want to invest more rather than have money sitting in a checking/savings account.  Any advice?  Is it worth paying a financial advisor and let them worry about it after telling them your goals?  Ugh
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 01:08:31 PM
I'm relatively new to investing.  I get my company 401k match and everything but want to invest more rather than have money sitting in a checking/savings account.  Any advice?  Is it worth paying a financial advisor and let them worry about it after telling them your goals?  Ugh
My opinion: Yes. However, you should understand exactly what he is doing with your money. It is not that complicated. If he makes it sound complicated, get someone else. Also, don't overpay.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoEMAW on January 31, 2014, 01:17:06 PM
How much does a house on 40 acres(Stocked farm pond duh) in the flint hills cost? I'll need exactly that much to retire....but but but, ben ji, how will you pay for other stuff like bills and spending money?

Dont care, gone fishing.

Don't buy it just pay mortgage on it.

Emo, I'll give you unlimited fishing and hunting access to my land if you pay my electric bill, k?

the crowd is going to be like spring break at disney world by the time ben ji gets this thing financed. no thanks.

SD, I'm planning on stocking the pond with Bullhead catfish and will let you borrow my zebco to fish anytime if you pay for my propane, k?

 :sdeek:

DO NOT TAKE!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoEMAW on January 31, 2014, 01:19:30 PM
Vanguard S&P 500 index is the gold standard.

For old people

read: wealthy, wise, etc.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 01:20:34 PM
I'm relatively new to investing.  I get my company 401k match and everything but want to invest more rather than have money sitting in a checking/savings account.  Any advice?  Is it worth paying a financial advisor and let them worry about it after telling them your goals?  Ugh

no.  investing is (can be, if you want it to be) incredibly easy.  there's no reason to pay someone to help you.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 31, 2014, 01:20:51 PM
I'm relatively new to investing.  I get my company 401k match and everything but want to invest more rather than have money sitting in a checking/savings account.  Any advice?  Is it worth paying a financial advisor and let them worry about it after telling them your goals?  Ugh

no.  investing is (can be, if you want it to be) incredibly easy.  there's no reason to pay someone to help you.

 :thumbs:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 01:50:33 PM
Ok so let's say you're married, couple kids, lower 30's.  Mortgage is your only debt.  Have extra money at the end of the month sitting in your checking.  Do you contribute more to your 401k?  Invest somewhere else I don't know about?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 01:57:03 PM
Ok so let's say you're married, couple kids, lower 30's.  Mortgage is your only debt.  Have extra money at the end of the month sitting in your checking.  Do you contribute more to your 401k?  Invest somewhere else I don't know about?
How much extra money? If it is just a couple hundred bucks and you have good choices in your 401k, invest there. Otherwise, depending on your income, start a Roth IRA.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on January 31, 2014, 02:01:39 PM
Ok so let's say you're married, couple kids, lower 30's.  Mortgage is your only debt.  Have extra money at the end of the month sitting in your checking.  Do you contribute more to your 401k?  Invest somewhere else I don't know about?
How much extra money? If it is just a couple hundred bucks and you have good choices in your 401k, invest there. Otherwise, depending on your income, start a Roth IRA.

A couple hundred bucks per month (give or take) could get you nearly halfway to maxing a Roth. If you are maxing your employer match on the 401k, wouldn't it be better to just put what you can in the Roth?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 02:23:48 PM
Like 1k or so. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on January 31, 2014, 02:30:10 PM
start putting some of it in 529 accounts for your kids' college
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 02:37:10 PM
Ok so let's say you're married, couple kids, lower 30's.  Mortgage is your only debt.  Have extra money at the end of the month sitting in your checking.  Do you contribute more to your 401k?  Invest somewhere else I don't know about?
How much extra money? If it is just a couple hundred bucks and you have good choices in your 401k, invest there. Otherwise, depending on your income, start a Roth IRA.

A couple hundred bucks per month (give or take) could get you nearly halfway to maxing a Roth. If you are maxing your employer match on the 401k, wouldn't it be better to just put what you can in the Roth?
Short answer: Yes, but probably not too significant. I love the idea of a Roth, but I have that in my 401k as well.
However, sometimes people are intimidated by starting something new. Adding $200 per month to your 401k contributions is actionable in about 2 minutes. Setting up a Roth IRA seems more daunting to some.

What I invest in on a monthly basis:
Roth 401k (this is the most significant)
Roth IRA (not actually monthly, but a couple of times/year I make a contribution)
Company stock (buy at 15% discount. Have to hold for a year, but I now sell some 3-4 times a year. I don't want too much money invested in company stock)
3 529 savings accounts
HSA
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 02:38:34 PM
Like 1k or so.
Max out a Roth IRA for you and your wife.
Start 529's for the kids. Even if you only put $50 a month in there, do it.

You can use the principle in the Roth for college if necessary.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 02:52:46 PM
Ok so let's say you're married, couple kids, lower 30's.  Mortgage is your only debt.  Have extra money at the end of the month sitting in your checking.  Do you contribute more to your 401k?  Invest somewhere else I don't know about?

i'd need to know when you want to retire, when your wife wants to retire and how old she is, if you get a 401k match, and if so what, what investment options you have in your 401k, your current marginal tax rate and your best guess at your marginal tax rate your first 5-10 years after stopping working (assume you file jointly, if not i need to know that too).  also how flexible you are, especially w. regard to retirement dates.  also mortgage rate and % equity in house.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 02:56:43 PM
Already have 529 acct, mort rate is 2.875, about 20% equity, wife is 28 would like to retire around 60 I guess.  So many questions.  Also I cont 6% in 401k get a 6% match threw employer, and I contribute another 6% to a Roth, I'm stuck on 6's maybe?  Max out the 529's at 6k per year
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 31, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
Ok so let's say you're married, couple kids, lower 30's.  Mortgage is your only debt.  Have extra money at the end of the month sitting in your checking.  Do you contribute more to your 401k?  Invest somewhere else I don't know about?

i'd need to know when you want to retire, when your wife wants to retire and how old she is, if you get a 401k match, and if so what, what investment options you have in your 401k, your current marginal tax rate and your best guess at your marginal tax rate your first 5-10 years after stopping working (assume you file jointly, if not i need to know that too).  also how flexible you are, especially w. regard to retirement dates.  also mortgage rate and % equity in house.

oh eff, let's just go blow that money in vegas meow meow
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 31, 2014, 02:57:48 PM
mort rate is 2.875

 :horrorsurprise:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 02:59:08 PM
Ok so let's say you're married, couple kids, lower 30's.  Mortgage is your only debt.  Have extra money at the end of the month sitting in your checking.  Do you contribute more to your 401k?  Invest somewhere else I don't know about?

i'd need to know when you want to retire, when your wife wants to retire and how old she is, if you get a 401k match, and if so what, what investment options you have in your 401k, your current marginal tax rate and your best guess at your marginal tax rate your first 5-10 years after stopping working (assume you file jointly, if not i need to know that too).  also how flexible you are, especially w. regard to retirement dates.  also mortgage rate and % equity in house.
I just made accurate assumptions for all of this. You can just use my advice, meow meow. No reason to divulge all of this on a blog.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Tobias on January 31, 2014, 02:59:31 PM
mort rate is 2.875

 :horrorsurprise:

is that on like a 2 year loan? :sdeek:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 03:00:52 PM
dobber, i'm just guessing at your income and flexibility, but i think you should probably put some or all of your money into a traditional 401k instead of the roth.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 31, 2014, 03:03:00 PM
dobber, i'm just guessing at your income and flexibility, but i think you should probably put some or all of your money into a traditional 401k instead of the roth.

yes, agreed here (using my own guesses) (my guess is that dobber makes mad stacks)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 03:03:31 PM
mort rate is 2.875

 :horrorsurprise:

If only it was my dream house probably be giving up that sweet rate in a few years
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 03:04:43 PM
Already have 529 acct, mort rate is 2.875, about 20% equity, wife is 28 would like to retire around 60 I guess.  So many questions.  Also I cont 6% in 401k get a 6% match threw employer, and I contribute another 6% to a Roth, I'm stuck on 6's maybe?  Max out the 529's at 6k per year

tax rate?  and not to get you to divulge personal info you don't want to divulge, but 6% doesn't tell me if you are at 17,5 or nowhere near it.  when you say roth, you mean ira or 401k?

one caveat - i dunno anything about 529s and don't care if your children go to college or not.  you have to figure that part out on your own.

you said 1k/month, correct?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 31, 2014, 03:05:11 PM
mort rate is 2.875

 :horrorsurprise:

If only it was my dream house probably be giving up that sweet rate in a few years

yeah, that will hurt. I currently have like a 3.3% on a 15 year at my current place but now I'm going to have to get a 30 year  :frown:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 03:08:07 PM
dobber, i'm just guessing at your income and flexibility, but i think you should probably put some or all of your money into a traditional 401k instead of the roth.
I couldn't convert what was in traditional 401k, and what the company contributes is still traditional. So I have a significant amount that is traditional and everything that I have invested over the past 5 years is Roth. I think it is a good mix. It is hard to know for certain what the taxes will be in the future, so having a mix feels right.

I have considered that maybe I should go back to traditional, since I have the Roth IRA's as well. Maybe that is what my guy wants to talk to me about.  :eek: ARE YOU MY GUY? :eek: Is your name Joe R.? :runaway:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on January 31, 2014, 03:10:33 PM
it really just matters what you make right now, not how you contributed to way back when (mostly)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 31, 2014, 03:13:11 PM
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on January 31, 2014, 03:19:02 PM
mort rate is 2.875

 :horrorsurprise:

If only it was my dream house probably be giving up that sweet rate in a few years

yeah, that will hurt. I currently have like a 3.3% on a 15 year at my current place but now I'm going to have to get a 30 year  :frown:
meow meow and I must have gotten loans at the same time, I refinanced a year after getting my house and now have the 2.875% 15 year EMAW loan
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 03:19:30 PM
dobber, i'm just guessing at your income and flexibility, but i think you should probably put some or all of your money into a traditional 401k instead of the roth.
I couldn't convert what was in traditional 401k, and what the company contributes is still traditional. So I have a significant amount that is traditional and everything that I have invested over the past 5 years is Roth. I think it is a good mix. It is hard to know for certain what the taxes will be in the future, so having a mix feels right.

I have considered that maybe I should go back to traditional, since I have the Roth IRA's as well. Maybe that is what my guy wants to talk to me about.  :eek: ARE YOU MY GUY? :eek: Is your name Joe R.? :runaway:

if you're paying 25% or more on your top rate  (the more over that, the stronger the case), i think you should put as much as you can into the traditional.  that gives you more flexibility.  you can convert the traditional to a roth (advantageously), you can't go the other way.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 03:21:08 PM
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.

depends on your tax rate and how much you have in it.  you might need to roll to a trad ira and then convert some each year to the roth.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on January 31, 2014, 03:23:12 PM
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.
You just contact the company who administers your 401k and tell them you want to roll it over, you fill out some forms and they put it into whatever account you tell them to, pretty easy. But I don't think you can move money from a regular 401k to a Roth IRA, you could just move it to your new 401k, or a regular IRA though
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 03:23:48 PM
dobber, i'm just guessing at your income and flexibility, but i think you should probably put some or all of your money into a traditional 401k instead of the roth.

yes, agreed here (using my own guesses) (my guess is that dobber makes mad stacks)
mad stacks now = shitload in retirement! :excited:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 31, 2014, 03:24:23 PM
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.

depends on your tax rate and how much you have in it.  you might need to roll to a trad ira and then convert some each year to the roth.
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.
You just contact the company who administers your 401k and tell them you want to roll it over, you fill out some forms and they put it into whatever account you tell them to, pretty easy. But I don't think you can move money from a regular 401k to a Roth IRA, you could just move it to your new 401k, or a regular IRA though

Gotcha, if it happens I'll look into the different options.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 03:25:12 PM
But I don't think you can move money from a regular 401k to a Roth IRA.

you can, but it's taxed, obviously.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 03:29:26 PM
it really just matters what you make right now, not how you contributed to way back when (mostly)
I have 3 kids and my wife doesn't work. I am not at the top of the tax bracket. I agree that one can make assumptions on those things as to whether or not it seems like the correct thing to do now; however, I think it is a guessing game as to what I will pay on my roth distributions. That is more as to what I was referring to. A lot of unknowns.

Am I wrong in thinking about it from that angle?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on January 31, 2014, 03:31:37 PM
But I don't think you can move money from a regular 401k to a Roth IRA.

you can, but it's taxed, obviously.
and I don't think you can use any of that money to pay the taxes.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 31, 2014, 03:32:48 PM
But I don't think you can move money from a regular 401k to a Roth IRA.

you can, but it's taxed, obviously.
and I don't think you can use any of that money to pay the taxes.

Woof.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 31, 2014, 03:34:27 PM
dobber, i'm just guessing at your income and flexibility, but i think you should probably put some or all of your money into a traditional 401k instead of the roth.
I couldn't convert what was in traditional 401k, and what the company contributes is still traditional. So I have a significant amount that is traditional and everything that I have invested over the past 5 years is Roth. I think it is a good mix. It is hard to know for certain what the taxes will be in the future, so having a mix feels right.

I have considered that maybe I should go back to traditional, since I have the Roth IRA's as well. Maybe that is what my guy wants to talk to me about.  :eek: ARE YOU MY GUY? :eek: Is your name Joe R.? :runaway:

if you're paying 25% or more on your top rate  (the more over that, the stronger the case), i think you should put as much as you can into the traditional.  that gives you more flexibility.  you can convert the traditional to a roth (advantageously), you can't go the other way.

do you have to itemize to get the tax advantages of a traditional, or is it like student loan interest? (I do not want to look it up).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
I recently changed jobs so I rolled my old 401k to an IRA, so I have this IRA, my new 401k and mrs meow meow has a 401k.  Thinking about taking this extra money and throwing some of it at this new rollover IRA?  If nothing else for simplicity sake but also don't want to be a dumbass but rereading some of my latest posts that may be too late.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on January 31, 2014, 03:50:12 PM
Question- Can you have a traditional IRA and a roth IRA? I assume yes. If you have both can you still only contribute a total of 5500 combined between the 2?

Thanks, I'll listen off air.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 03:54:08 PM
Question- Can you have a traditional IRA and a roth IRA? I assume yes. If you have both can you still only contribute a total of 5500 combined between the 2?

Thanks, I'll listen off air.

Pretty sure the 5500 is the Roth max

Look at me trying to answer questions, adorbs
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 31, 2014, 03:54:44 PM
Question- Can you have a traditional IRA and a roth IRA? I assume yes. If you have both can you still only contribute a total of 5500 combined between the 2?

Thanks, I'll listen off air.

Pretty sure the 5500 is the Roth max

Look at me trying to answer questions, adorbs

no, it's 5500 combined. 401k is the workaround if it's available.

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics-IRA-Contribution-Limits
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on January 31, 2014, 04:04:33 PM
Question- Can you have a traditional IRA and a roth IRA? I assume yes. If you have both can you still only contribute a total of 5500 combined between the 2?

Thanks, I'll listen off air.

Pretty sure the 5500 is the Roth max

Look at me trying to answer questions, adorbs

no, it's 5500 combined. 401k is the workaround if it's available.

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics-IRA-Contribution-Limits
You can have both a regular and Roth IRA, and what Mich said above. Roth 401k s are super boss
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 04:09:58 PM
do you have to itemize to get the tax advantages of a traditional, or is it like student loan interest? (I do not want to look it up).

i was talking about 401ks, not iras.  but if you do a traditional ira, you can deduct it as well as a standard deduction.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 04:12:06 PM
But I don't think you can move money from a regular 401k to a Roth IRA.

you can, but it's taxed, obviously.
and I don't think you can use any of that money to pay the taxes.

you can.  you shouldn't, if you don't have to, though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 04:13:43 PM
it really just matters what you make right now, not how you contributed to way back when (mostly)
I have 3 kids and my wife doesn't work. I am not at the top of the tax bracket. I agree that one can make assumptions on those things as to whether or not it seems like the correct thing to do now; however, I think it is a guessing game as to what I will pay on my roth distributions. That is more as to what I was referring to. A lot of unknowns.

Am I wrong in thinking about it from that angle?

it's not completely a guessing game.  you have a lot of control about when/if you convert, distribute, etc.  you have more options within the traditional.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 04:15:56 PM
I recently changed jobs so I rolled my old 401k to an IRA, so I have this IRA, my new 401k and mrs meow meow has a 401k.  Thinking about taking this extra money and throwing some of it at this new rollover IRA?  If nothing else for simplicity sake but also don't want to be a dumbass but rereading some of my latest posts that may be too late.

you're either going to have to post your tax rate, or figure it out yourself.  more or less the only reason to choose a traditional v roth ira is because of tax rate. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 04:19:03 PM
25% I think.  Recap I have money going into a 401k and a Roth 401k, and I have a rollover IRA
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 31, 2014, 04:21:43 PM
do you have to itemize to get the tax advantages of a traditional, or is it like student loan interest? (I do not want to look it up).

i was talking about 401ks, not iras.  but if you do a traditional ira, you can deduct it as well as a standard deduction.

I ask because I have had some very high-expenses/few-choices with some company 401k's.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 04:27:39 PM
25% I think.  Recap I have money going into a 401k and a Roth 401k, and I have a rollover IRA

i'd max out your traditional 401k first, assuming you have reasonable investments available to you through that plan.  if you still have money left after that that is taxed at 25%, i'd go with the traditional ira (unless you think you might want to retire before 59, then maybe probably roth ira).  if you can't max out your traditional with 25% money, i'd put however much of that money there is into roths (ira, 401k, both/whatever).

if you still have money left after maxing 401ks & iras then throw it at your hsa if it's not maxed or your kids, whatever.  or eff the kids and invest it as taxable money.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 04:28:53 PM
I ask because I have had some very high-expenses/few-choices with some company 401k's.

but you also change jobs every 3 years.  rollitover&moveon.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 04:34:36 PM
I didn't think there was a max on 401k?  I thought you could put like 99% of your paycheck in that if you wanted
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Brock Landers on January 31, 2014, 04:43:41 PM
I didn't think there was a max on 401k?  I thought you could put like 99% of your paycheck in that if you wanted


Sure, if your salary is only $17500.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 04:44:16 PM
I didn't think there was a max on 401k?  I thought you could put like 99% of your paycheck in that if you wanted

17.5k is the max unless you are over 50.  i think self-employed have some ridiculously high max (not sure), might be able to loophole more with a fake self employment.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 31, 2014, 04:45:48 PM
I don't think I'll ever make enough to max out my 401k and live comfortably. Will I die penniless?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on January 31, 2014, 04:46:16 PM
Ok I guess I'll shoot to max out my 401k then thanks for your help
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 04:51:54 PM
I don't think I'll ever make enough to max out my 401k and live comfortably. Will I die penniless?

yes, spend less and max out the 401k.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 31, 2014, 04:55:06 PM
I don't think I'll ever make enough to max out my 401k and live comfortably. Will I die penniless?

yes, spend less and max out the 401k.

I'm not sure I could do that.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j rake on January 31, 2014, 04:58:08 PM
Let's say you have an extra 25k laying around, and you are new to investing, meaning you basically have no other investments other than what your parents have set up for you; and stupid stocks that you won't ever see; and other useless garbage.

You want to invest the 25k on Monday. How would you choose to invest it?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 31, 2014, 04:59:03 PM
your parents set up investments for you? :frown:

In that case, I would probably start a record label.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j rake on January 31, 2014, 04:59:25 PM
I'm asking for a friend who is new to investing.  :blank:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on January 31, 2014, 05:00:57 PM
I don't think I'll ever make enough to max out my 401k and live comfortably. Will I die penniless?

yes, spend less and max out the 401k.

I'm not sure I could do that.

Don't listen to them.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 31, 2014, 05:06:07 PM
I don't think I'll ever make enough to max out my 401k and live comfortably. Will I die penniless?

yes, spend less and max out the 401k.

I'm not sure I could do that.

Don't listen to them.

they all make me feel very poor (money)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 05:24:55 PM
why can't you max out your 401k?  you're being ridiculous.  you are paid a very nice salary.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 05:25:41 PM
I'm asking for a friend who is new to investing.  :blank:

you're a gambler, right?  so you have a pretty decent tolerance for risk?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 31, 2014, 05:41:49 PM
why can't you max out your 401k?  you're being ridiculous.  you are paid a very nice salary.

I think you know why I can't and I'm amazed you haven't brought it up. (Kids is why)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 05:44:24 PM
you're spoiling them.  cut back and max out the 401k.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j rake on January 31, 2014, 06:16:50 PM
you have a pretty decent tolerance for risk?

calculated ones, sure.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 07:03:02 PM
you have a pretty decent tolerance for risk?

calculated ones, sure.

investing should come pretty natural then.  it's just like sports betting, but you get the vig instead of the house getting it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j rake on January 31, 2014, 07:15:56 PM
investing should come pretty natural then.  it's just like sports betting, but you get the vig instead of the house getting it.

so what would you do?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on January 31, 2014, 07:32:43 PM
investing should come pretty natural then.  it's just like sports betting, but you get the vig instead of the house getting it.

so what would you do?

i'd put my money down.  are you looking for recommendos on specific stocks?  that won't work - you have to do enough of your own research to convince yourself you know what you're doing.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Dugout DickStone on January 31, 2014, 07:36:14 PM
Grab Denver with all 25k.

Either that or put money down on a rental in a college town
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on January 31, 2014, 07:46:38 PM
if i were going to invest 25k on monday in an individual stock, i would buy……………………….. DYAX

edit: i'm joking, though it could end up fine
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 01, 2014, 09:18:50 PM
dobber,

read, then fire joe r.

http://johncbogle.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/FAJ-All-In-Investment-Expenses-Jan-Feb-2014.pdf
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 01, 2014, 09:22:17 PM
actually, i take that back.  i was wrong.  don't read that.  btw, i'm really good with money.  you might think about hiring me instead of joe r.  i'll charge you half what he does and guarantee your returns equal or exceed the sp500 (+/- 0.10%).

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j rake on February 02, 2014, 12:09:40 AM
i'd put my money down.  are you looking for recommendos on specific stocks?  that won't work - you have to do enough of your own research to convince yourself you know what you're doing.

pick a stock! if it doesn't perform, i'll ask for a refund and try a different one.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 06, 2014, 02:38:43 PM
https://www.gmo.com/America/CMSAttachmentDownload.aspx?target=JUBRxi51IIBEIq6GNuTKr%2bf2o0WPxzkpzr%2bP3HvjlK76FjNoPoANwwlALT63inFW79ZpF3%2flV38cZqUS7omOesbovw5OtEXWvLdvJOMPjKplKGSys5%2byS6cvvjNvW5SS
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on February 06, 2014, 02:41:05 PM
(http://www0.gsb.columbia.edu/students/organizations/cima/img/Montier.jpg)
(http://www.pionline.com/storyimage/CO/20110725/PRINT/307259977/V2/0/072511-james-montier.jpg)
(http://www.fondstrends.ch/uploads/pics/GMO_James_Montier_01.jpg)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on February 06, 2014, 02:47:11 PM
https://www.gmo.com/America/CMSAttachmentDownload.aspx?target=JUBRxi51IIBEIq6GNuTKr%2bf2o0WPxzkpzr%2bP3HvjlK76FjNoPoANwwlALT63inFW79ZpF3%2flV38cZqUS7omOesbovw5OtEXWvLdvJOMPjKplKGSys5%2byS6cvvjNvW5SS

can I get a summary pls
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 06, 2014, 03:00:21 PM
Can we discuss how much Prudential 401k's suck?  The fund options suck big floppy donkey dick.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 06, 2014, 03:07:59 PM
can I get a summary pls

don't expect to make much money, dumbasses.  lol.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 06, 2014, 03:13:42 PM
Can we discuss how much Prudential 401k's suck?  The fund options suck big floppy donkey dick.

i think most 401ks suck.  mine does.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: reidrolled on February 06, 2014, 06:23:52 PM
investing should come pretty natural then.  it's just like sports betting, but you get the vig instead of the house getting it.

so what would you do?

NVO makes something like 50% of the worlds insulin. you think diabetes is on the decline anytime soon? forgetaboutit
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on February 06, 2014, 07:06:30 PM
can I get a summary pls

don't expect to make much money, dumbasses.  lol.

his conclusion made it seem so easy. Just buy cheap assets.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 06, 2014, 07:28:46 PM
yeah, but everything prior to the conclusion was talking about how nothing (in the us) is cheap.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 06, 2014, 08:24:04 PM
Says did you see the link someone else posted about the U.S. and the upcoming economic boom?

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Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 06, 2014, 08:24:30 PM
Sys sys that last was for you

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Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 06, 2014, 08:52:19 PM
if i did, i don't remember it.  in this thread?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 07, 2014, 08:53:34 AM
if i did, i don't remember it.  in this thread?

It was in the birther pit somewhere.  One of these douches who changed their name posted it.  CF3 maybe?  (I like them BTW, just annoying because I suck at keeping people straight on here.)

I'll try to find it and post here again, although I know I will regret it if you just tear it apart, because it was overwhelmingly optimistic.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 07, 2014, 08:55:31 AM
Here it is:  http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/america-unleashed-why-well-be/
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 07, 2014, 02:34:51 PM
i think i mostly agree.  at least it seems like a reasonable thesis.  macro and equities can be pretty divorced though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on February 07, 2014, 07:20:29 PM
if i did, i don't remember it.  in this thread?

It was in the birther pit somewhere.  One of these douches who changed their name posted it.  CF3 maybe?  (I like them BTW, just annoying because I suck at keeping people straight on here.)

I'll try to find it and post here again, although I know I will regret it if you just tear it apart, because it was overwhelmingly optimistic.

That was me, dick
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 07, 2014, 07:31:14 PM
My bad YOLO

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Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on February 12, 2014, 10:41:14 AM
Just got a "Stock Tip" from my dad...daily rush Limbaugh listener, still has a picture of George and Laura thanking him for his donation in 2004, etc etc.

The stock? HEMP

Yup, penny stock.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Johnny Wichita on February 19, 2014, 10:25:45 AM
Sell all of your stocks right now.  You're welcome. 

 :runaway:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on February 19, 2014, 10:35:42 AM
Sell all of your stocks right now.  You're welcome. 

 :runaway:

I concur with this statement.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 19, 2014, 10:38:53 AM
Guys what's happening?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on February 19, 2014, 10:44:18 AM
Guys what's happening?

DONT ASK QUESTIONS JUST SELL SELL SELL  :runaway: :runaway: :runaway:

but seriously no idea what JW was talking about.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on February 19, 2014, 11:19:33 AM
(http://www.survivallife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/stock-market-crash-feat-300x336.jpg)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 19, 2014, 11:21:15 AM
Care to post some links or other evidence?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on February 19, 2014, 12:27:18 PM
Anybody have a significant position in Zales?  Got a hot tip a few months ago to throw my nest egg into it :kstategrad:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on February 19, 2014, 12:30:09 PM
Anybody have a significant position in Zales?  Got a hot tip a few months ago to throw my nest egg into it :kstategrad:

yes. wink once for buy and wink twice for sell. don't wanna get caught for insider trading.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EMAWmeister on February 19, 2014, 12:48:55 PM
Anybody have a significant position in Zales?  Got a hot tip a few months ago to throw my nest egg into it :kstategrad:

yes. wink once for buy and wink twice for sell. don't wanna get caught for insider trading.

Well good, because wetWillie isn't an insider.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 19, 2014, 12:51:50 PM
Guys I think wetwillie is saying he's about to get engaged.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on February 19, 2014, 10:25:39 PM
Guys I think wetwillie is saying he's about to get engaged.

Oh, I thought he was hinting that he knew about Signet acquiring zales before it announced it publicly. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 16, 2014, 02:33:36 PM
770 account.. Has anyone heard of this or heard of anyone that actually has one? Seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors


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Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on March 16, 2014, 02:40:57 PM
770 account.. Has anyone heard of this or heard of anyone that actually has one? Seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors

seems like if you have a lot of money, and are more concerned with taxes than returns, it might make sense.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on April 23, 2014, 01:06:04 PM
http://valleywag.gawker.com/greenlight-capital-we-are-witnessing-our-second-tech-1566302438/+laceydonohue (http://valleywag.gawker.com/greenlight-capital-we-are-witnessing-our-second-tech-1566302438/+laceydonohue)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on May 01, 2014, 10:37:21 PM
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.

depends on your tax rate and how much you have in it.  you might need to roll to a trad ira and then convert some each year to the roth.
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.
You just contact the company who administers your 401k and tell them you want to roll it over, you fill out some forms and they put it into whatever account you tell them to, pretty easy. But I don't think you can move money from a regular 401k to a Roth IRA, you could just move it to your new 401k, or a regular IRA though

Gotcha, if it happens I'll look into the different options.


So I switched jobs and ended up rolling my old 401k into an IRA, just sitting there as cash right now.

Planning on looking at different options tomorrow but more than likely I'll put 50% in a SP500 index fund then divide the rest between different Industry/Geographic funds or whatever I find interesting. 

Is there any advantage to spacing out my purchases over a longer period of time or should I just pull the trigger whenever I feel comfortable with my decisions?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on May 01, 2014, 10:59:49 PM
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.

depends on your tax rate and how much you have in it.  you might need to roll to a trad ira and then convert some each year to the roth.
Anyone have any experience with rolling over 401k's when you change jobs? May be changing soon and I was just planning on rolling it all into my roth IRA.
You just contact the company who administers your 401k and tell them you want to roll it over, you fill out some forms and they put it into whatever account you tell them to, pretty easy. But I don't think you can move money from a regular 401k to a Roth IRA, you could just move it to your new 401k, or a regular IRA though

Gotcha, if it happens I'll look into the different options.


So I switched jobs and ended up rolling my old 401k into an IRA, just sitting there as cash right now.

Planning on looking at different options tomorrow but more than likely I'll put 50% in a SP500 index fund then divide the rest between different Industry/Geographic funds or whatever I find interesting. 

Is there any advantage to spacing out my purchases over a longer period of time or should I just pull the trigger whenever I feel comfortable with my decisions?

Why roll it over to cash? You don't need to roll it over if you liked your options before.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on May 01, 2014, 11:08:41 PM
I didn't like my options before, I had like 15 of them to choose from.



Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: eastcat on May 02, 2014, 12:53:35 AM
Right now isn't really a good time to enter the market, the SP500 is a pretty low yield index, the companies are all mature. If you have a long time horizon you should be steering towards a NASDAQ or IPO index that is tech and growth based.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on May 02, 2014, 06:09:16 AM

Right now isn't really a good time to enter the market, the SP500 is a pretty low yield index, the companies are all mature. If you have a long time horizon you should be steering towards a NASDAQ or IPO index that is tech and growth based.

Hey eastcat, 1999 called and would like their investment advice back
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: IPA4Me on May 02, 2014, 06:14:54 AM
Hop on that nasdaq as tech stocks are stupidly over valued.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Tobias on May 02, 2014, 07:02:02 AM

Hey eastcat, 1999 called and would like their investment advice back

he wasn't alive for the dot com bubble :surprised:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on May 02, 2014, 07:28:37 AM

Hey eastcat, 1999 called and would like their investment advice back

he wasn't alive for the dot com bubble :surprised:

lies
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on May 02, 2014, 07:45:09 AM
Experts would say you should invest this gradually, but experts are stupid. Throw it all in and roll the dice.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on May 02, 2014, 08:13:02 AM
I'm going to buy some Apple before the stock splits next month
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Tobias on May 02, 2014, 08:26:47 AM
lies

eastcat you goddamn racist rascal :shakesfist:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 02, 2014, 08:44:09 AM
Commodities bruh.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Big Train on May 04, 2014, 11:52:10 PM
i know a certain poster who is reaping the benefits of buying tons of apple stock 10+ years ago and is just rolling in straight cash right now :kstategrad:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 07, 2014, 09:07:00 AM
So I haven't consolidated my 401 K from like three different companies. This is very naive, but it's still out there, right? Do I just need to contact fidelity and ask them to collect my past 401 K's from other companies? Is this a lot of work?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 07, 2014, 09:09:39 AM
My wife just rolled over one 401k to another.  Takes a few days but was pretty easy.  They had to physically mail her a check which she then mailed to the other folks. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on May 07, 2014, 09:12:08 AM
So I haven't consolidated my 401 K from like three different companies. This is very naive, but it's still out there, right? Do I just need to contact fidelity and ask them to collect my past 401 K's from other companies? Is this a lot of work?

Call the old companies and get rollover/transfer paperwork.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 07, 2014, 09:12:44 AM
Thanks guys! :cheers:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 07, 2014, 09:21:34 AM
Make sure you send the disbursement checks directly into your new 401K, not cash them, or else you will end up paying a bunch of penalties.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 07, 2014, 09:24:26 AM
Make sure you send the disbursement checks directly into your new 401K, not cash them, or else you will end up paying a bunch of penalties.
Yeah, don't they tax you like 40% or something crazy like that?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on May 07, 2014, 09:28:44 AM
Make sure you send the disbursement checks directly into your new 401K, not cash them, or else you will end up paying a bunch of penalties.
Yeah, don't they tax you like 40% or something crazy like that?

If you don't put it into an IRA within 60 days of withdrawal then yes, they tax the crap out of it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2014, 10:33:35 AM
My wife just rolled over one 401k to another.  Takes a few days but was pretty easy.  They had to physically mail her a check which she then mailed to the other folks. 

It's a huge pain in the ass compared to how easy it should be.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on May 07, 2014, 10:44:41 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on May 07, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 07, 2014, 10:49:26 AM
EllRI is really smart with finances. So is SD. I believe Scottwildcat is too. Just a bunch of smart ppl running around this place. Nice to have for dumbos like myself.  :cheers:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Brock Landers on May 07, 2014, 10:50:53 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.

Sure he can, as long as his plan allows for Rollovers in from other sources of money.  If he's not making contributions to the IRA there's no sense it leaving it as it is.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on May 07, 2014, 10:51:31 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.

Thanks real life Ell Roberson III.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on May 07, 2014, 10:52:56 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.

I mean, technically it's possible to rollover 401k to 401k but it's stupid and you shouldn't do it. A lot of plans won't accept it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2014, 10:54:23 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.

Sure he can, as long as his plan allows for Rollovers in from other sources of money.  If he's not making contributions to the IRA there's no sense it leaving it as it is.

If he's happy with his investment options there's no sense moving it. It would actually be pretty stupid to roll in to a plan with inferior options.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: hemmy on May 07, 2014, 10:56:38 AM
Fidelity completely f'd up my HSA transfer back at the beginning of the year. Took them forever to get it right.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 07, 2014, 10:57:19 AM
My wife just rolled over one 401k to another.  Takes a few days but was pretty easy.  They had to physically mail her a check which she then mailed to the other folks. 

It's a huge pain in the ass compared to how easy it should be.

Why can't it be just routing and account numbers?  Why not?  Tell me!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2014, 10:58:55 AM
Fidelity completely f'd up my HSA transfer back at the beginning of the year. Took them forever to get it right.

Yep, I've requested transfers, and the check got lost or something. It's actually a humongous pain in the ass.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 07, 2014, 10:59:41 AM
Fidelity completely f'd up my HSA transfer back at the beginning of the year. Took them forever to get it right.

Yep, I've requested transfers, and the check got lost or something. It's actually a humongous pain in the ass.
Crap. Not looking fwd to this now.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Brock Landers on May 07, 2014, 11:06:16 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.

Sure he can, as long as his plan allows for Rollovers in from other sources of money.  If he's not making contributions to the IRA there's no sense it leaving it as it is.

If he's happy with his investment options there's no sense moving it. It would actually be pretty stupid to roll in to a plan with inferior options.

Where did he say he was happy with his IRA's investment options or that his 401k plan had inferior options?  The IRA will never do anything for him if he's not contributing to it.  The real issue here is how come meow meow is not contributing to his IRA   
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on May 07, 2014, 11:08:06 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.

Sure he can, as long as his plan allows for Rollovers in from other sources of money.  If he's not making contributions to the IRA there's no sense it leaving it as it is.

If he's happy with his investment options there's no sense moving it. It would actually be pretty stupid to roll in to a plan with inferior options.

Where did he say he was happy with his IRA's investment options or that his 401k plan had inferior options?  The IRA will never do anything for him if he's not contributing to it.  The real issue here is how come meow meow is not contributing to his IRA

Becausing I'm contributing a lot to my 401k.  Should I just be contributing enough to get the company match, and invest the rest in the IRA?  Lets assuming the investment options are pretty much the same.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on May 07, 2014, 11:09:00 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.

Sure he can, as long as his plan allows for Rollovers in from other sources of money.  If he's not making contributions to the IRA there's no sense it leaving it as it is.

If he's happy with his investment options there's no sense moving it. It would actually be pretty stupid to roll in to a plan with inferior options.

Where did he say he was happy with his IRA's investment options or that his 401k plan had inferior options?  The IRA will never do anything for him if he's not contributing to it.  The real issue here is how come meow meow is not contributing to his IRA

You must have missed the first word of mc's post.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2014, 11:23:51 AM
I left a job about a year ago, and that 401k is now a traditional IRA, in which I don't make any contributions to currently, it's just all of the old money from when i was at my old job.  Now at my new job, I have a different 401k.  I should get that IRA rolled into my 401k shouldn't I?  It will grow a lot faster will all of the money in one place, no?

You can't do that. Just leave it in the IRA then when you leave your current job, rollover that 401k into said TradIRA.

Sure he can, as long as his plan allows for Rollovers in from other sources of money.  If he's not making contributions to the IRA there's no sense it leaving it as it is.

If he's happy with his investment options there's no sense moving it. It would actually be pretty stupid to roll in to a plan with inferior options.

Where did he say he was happy with his IRA's investment options or that his 401k plan had inferior options?  The IRA will never do anything for him if he's not contributing to it.  The real issue here is how come meow meow is not contributing to his IRA

Becausing I'm contributing a lot to my 401k.  Should I just be contributing enough to get the company match, and invest the rest in the IRA?  Lets assuming the investment options are pretty much the same.

Do you like your investment options in your 401k? Are you in a high tax bracket? If you're in a lower tax bracket already, contribute to a Roth beyond your company match.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on May 07, 2014, 11:30:30 AM
only the 25% bracket, maybe i should put more into the roth (already putting about 6% into roth)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2014, 11:34:30 AM
only the 25% bracket, maybe i should put more into the roth (already putting about 6% into roth)

If you're putting 6% into your Roth already along with (I'm guessing) 6% into your 401k, you're probably fine either way. I'd probably go for the account with the lowest fee options, (likely the Roth).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on May 07, 2014, 11:41:03 AM
only the 25% bracket, maybe i should put more into the roth (already putting about 6% into roth)

If you're putting 6% into your Roth already along with (I'm guessing) 6% into your 401k, you're probably fine either way. I'd probably go for the account with the lowest fee options, (likely the Roth).

actually more into the 401k, so maybe i'll look into switching more of it to roth.  so many options!  thanks for the info/help
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on May 07, 2014, 09:44:45 PM
your ira is free (if it isn't, change the custodian to one that is free).  you pay fees on your 401k.  also you can invest in almost anything in the world in the ira, in the 401k you are limited to whatever whoever administers your 401k allows.

as should be obvious, putting your ira into the 401k would be dumb.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on May 08, 2014, 05:15:35 AM
sys is right, but kind of mean. Take home message: mean people know about financial stuff?


Gonna win 'em all!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on May 09, 2014, 01:55:33 AM
sys is right, but kind of mean. Take home message: mean people know about financial stuff?

i thought i was being nice.   :blank:


i put down some bermuda-killing chemicals last weekend.  really looking forward to seeing their dead little bodies when i get home (i may have sprayed all wrong though).
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EMAWmeister on June 01, 2014, 02:48:36 AM
I don't believe in timing the markets, but as a new grad starting his investment life, getting in at the record highs is not very profitable correct?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on June 01, 2014, 06:58:17 AM

I don't believe in timing the markets, but as a new grad starting his investment life, getting in at the record highs is not very profitable correct?

No
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on June 01, 2014, 09:44:09 AM
It will be way higher long term, get your ass in there.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on June 01, 2014, 09:50:47 AM
If you are investing for the long term. Do it early and do it often. Never a reason not to invest long term. There are people still setting on money from 2008-2009 that they pulled out. Now they think the market it too high, so they are waiting for it to go back down.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on June 01, 2014, 11:21:05 AM
I don't believe in timing the markets, but as a new grad starting his investment life, getting in at the record highs is not very profitable correct?

It's not like you're throwing 100k into the mkt all at once
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on June 01, 2014, 11:52:52 AM
I don't believe in timing the markets, but as a new grad starting his investment life, getting in at the record highs is not very profitable correct?

there's always something cheap.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on June 10, 2014, 09:44:33 AM
should i be getting some gold into my portfolio?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Daddy Claxton on June 10, 2014, 10:59:45 AM
 Back on page 13 or something, I was asking about using a "guy".  Thanks to Rams and ERiI for informing me on what it should cost. Thanks to others for their insight, too.

Anyway, I ended up paying him a flat fee and he got my current portfolio in proper order, which was worth the cost to me. I sold a bunch of my employers stock, and my "guy" wasn't as specific as I had hoped about what to do with the proceeds. So I bought a subscription to Fidelity Monitor and Insight* and just follow their model portfolios. They send me an email every Friday telling me what to buy/sell. Probably not ideal for everyone, but it works well for what I want/need and costs less than a "guy".

*fidelityinsight.com
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 10, 2014, 11:36:20 AM
Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on June 10, 2014, 11:43:00 AM
Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

Doing this.  Outcome unknown.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on June 10, 2014, 11:43:46 AM
Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

Depends on the renters.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 8manpick on June 10, 2014, 11:48:51 AM
Seems like a lot of work for 1500 a year
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 10, 2014, 11:51:54 AM
Seems like a lot of work for 1500 a year

I think realistically you would make ~$3-4,000.  In addition you would make turn $20,000 in to $102,500 in 15 years.  That is a pretty good return.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on June 10, 2014, 11:52:47 AM
Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

Depends on the renters.
Rental properties are usually a good investment, it's just a matter of how much hassle you're willing to deal with. Did you add insurance into your model somewhere?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on June 10, 2014, 11:58:04 AM
Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

1500/year in upkeep does not seem absurdly low. You also have to account for crappy tenants and vacancy and time spent hounding for rent, fixing crap, etc. Basically it could be fine, but it could also be a huge pain in the ass in a place like MHK with so many short term residents.

Why not just put $15k + $750/month in the stock market?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on June 10, 2014, 12:03:35 PM
24/7 on call kat kid handyman service is a hilarious thing for me to think about. DO IT.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 10, 2014, 12:24:35 PM

Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

1500/year in upkeep does not seem absurdly low. You also have to account for crappy tenants and vacancy and time spent hounding for rent, fixing crap, etc. Basically it could be fine, but it could also be a huge pain in the ass in a place like MHK with so many short term residents.

Why not just put $15k + $750/month in the stock market?

The $750/mo doesn't come out of "my" end.  It is covered by rent.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 10, 2014, 12:26:09 PM

Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

1500/year in upkeep does not seem absurdly low. You also have to account for crappy tenants and vacancy and time spent hounding for rent, fixing crap, etc. Basically it could be fine, but it could also be a huge pain in the ass in a place like MHK with so many short term residents.

Why not just put $15k + $750/month in the stock market?

Vacancy rates in MHK?  LoL ok.  The $1500 is for fixing stuff.  And obviously the sweat equity is the big difference between this and investing in the stock market.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on June 10, 2014, 12:27:42 PM

Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

1500/year in upkeep does not seem absurdly low. You also have to account for crappy tenants and vacancy and time spent hounding for rent, fixing crap, etc. Basically it could be fine, but it could also be a huge pain in the ass in a place like MHK with so many short term residents.

Why not just put $15k + $750/month in the stock market?

The $750/mo doesn't come out of "my" end.  It is covered by rent.

yeah, dumb post by me.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on June 10, 2014, 12:29:02 PM

Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

1500/year in upkeep does not seem absurdly low. You also have to account for crappy tenants and vacancy and time spent hounding for rent, fixing crap, etc. Basically it could be fine, but it could also be a huge pain in the ass in a place like MHK with so many short term residents.

Why not just put $15k + $750/month in the stock market?

Vacancy rates in MHK?  LoL ok.  The $1500 is for fixing stuff.  And obviously the sweat equity is the big difference between this and investing in the stock market.

OK, go for it. You obviously can't lose.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on June 10, 2014, 12:35:29 PM
I worked for a property management company for a couple years during college doing on call stuff and painting on turnovers and junk like that. it's awful. you will be putting a shitload into the place at every turnover and plan on replacing a lot of stuff in the house because your tenants won't take care of anything. you are also going to run into stuff with collections, small claims, complaints from tenants re. deposits and upkeep, etc. maybe won't be an issue for you if you had just one property but on a macro scale you deal with that a lot (I'd say 5% of rentals each year). obviously screening tenants and not being a slum lord helps here.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on June 10, 2014, 12:43:33 PM
100k seems really low as a purchase price in mhk  for a decent income producing property.  I think real estate is a good investment in mhk though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 10, 2014, 12:46:17 PM
An actual Canadian friend is getting into this and I brought up all of these points.  He is a garage sale/refurbisher and handy man.  I was very negative about the idea and brought up all of these points (including Krusty's point about $750/mo in stock market) and he seemed confident and had answers.  I was mostly trolling for Daris to weigh in.  I obviously would never do this because I suck at nearly every skill required to do it profitably.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on June 10, 2014, 12:49:17 PM
100k seems really low as a purchase price in mhk  for a decent income producing property.  I think real estate is a good investment in mhk though.

Yes, also I'm not sure what type of tenant is drawn to a $1000/month 3BR in Manhattan (I have no idea what the market is like, but that would have been reasonable for a student slum 10 years ago). I guess these numbers could be hypothetical though so who knows.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 10, 2014, 12:53:33 PM

100k seems really low as a purchase price in mhk  for a decent income producing property.  I think real estate is a good investment in mhk though.

Probably more like $120K purchase  $100K mortgage.  That would maybe make the numbers a bit more realistic.  I did a quick mortgage calc at 15 yr and 5% with no PMI and property taxes baked in then rounded up to the nearest $50.  But that was on an $80k mortgage.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on June 10, 2014, 01:07:30 PM
KK also keep in mind you can put a lot of money into your existing home and expense it to the rental property.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 06wildcat on June 10, 2014, 01:17:49 PM
Single family homes are generally terrible for rentals unless there's the potential for significant instant equity (short sale, foreclosure, pocket listing etc) to keep your initial investment amount small. It helps if you can buy the property in cash and finance it later.

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on June 10, 2014, 01:28:48 PM
I was mostly trolling for Daris to weigh in. 


if you aren't very handy and don't like dealing with/talking to people all the time about money they owe and crap they think you need to fix, then i don't recommend it.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Boom Roasted on June 10, 2014, 01:37:54 PM
Taxes
Insurance
1500 per year is average but what about when the furnace or AC go out?  Roof? Each of those is basically double your yearly average.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 10, 2014, 01:56:51 PM
Boom roasted. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on June 10, 2014, 02:12:26 PM
goEMAWhouse.com
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on June 10, 2014, 02:24:06 PM
What are some good investment options for money that you still want to be fairly liquid.  CD rates look pretty low, savings accounts obviously suck.

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on June 10, 2014, 03:13:31 PM
kk, my parents did that for a while.  it's a huge pain in the ass.  but tons of people have made lots of money in mom & pop real estate rentals.  i wouldn't make the decision as an investment choice, more a how do i want to live my life choice.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on June 10, 2014, 03:14:45 PM
What are some good investment options for money that you still want to be fairly liquid.  CD rates look pretty low, savings accounts obviously suck.

liquid or safe?  you can invest in tons of things that are fairly liquid.  but you aren't going to find an attractive return on anything that's risk-free.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on June 10, 2014, 03:16:01 PM
yeah, stocks are liquid, mutual funds are liquid, gold is liquid. buying a business or some land or art and stuff isn't liquid.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 06wildcat on June 10, 2014, 03:29:59 PM
yeah, stocks are liquid, mutual funds are liquid, gold is liquid. buying a business or some land or art and stuff isn't liquid.

Just use the asset to secure a line of credit. Boom. Liquid.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on June 10, 2014, 06:39:47 PM
What are some good investment options for money that you still want to be fairly liquid.  CD rates look pretty low, savings accounts obviously suck.



You are confusing insurance and investment here I think. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on June 10, 2014, 08:45:22 PM
Say you have money sitting in a saving account or equivalent.  Money isn't making crap but it's nice for an emergency/piece of mind.  However, there are probably better places to put it, while at the same time it would be nice for it to be liquid enough that I could pull it to buy a bigger house or something.  Mutual funds outside of a 401k/retirement account?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on June 10, 2014, 08:50:08 PM
Assuming you have the principal (~$15-$20K) to find a decent rental property why shouldn't someone:

1.  buy 3BR home for $100K
2.  15yr Mortgage ~$750/mo (absurdly high)
3.  Rent ~$1000/mo (low)

assuming $1500/yr in upkeep (absurdly high) you make min. $1500/yr for 15 yrs then either sell property and be done with it, upgrade to a nicer property or roll the profits in to a second cheap property.

Anyone done this?  Anyone doing this?  How big a pain is this assuming you live in the same town?

(rick daris bait)

This is pretty much my plan with the house I live in now, 13 years left on mortgage and similar numbers to what you posted.

Assuming that in 13 years I still live in the same city and have little uns running around(with ultra light fishing poles) I'll buy a bigger house out and rent my current house. The plan is to form a Ben Ji Properties LLC and never ever ever ever turn a profit. Whatever doesnt go back into a house will be used to scope out new "Properties" in various cities I feel like visiting on vacation.

ABSOLUTELY NO NEGATIVE REPEROCUSSIONS(or whatever wacky's 2nd most famous catchphrase is)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on June 10, 2014, 08:50:33 PM
Say you have money sitting in a saving account or equivalent.  Money isn't making crap but it's nice for an emergency/piece of mind.  However, there are probably better places to put it, while at the same time it would be nice for it to be liquid enough that I could pull it to buy a bigger house or something.  Mutual funds outside of a 401k/retirement account?

Do you have a Roth IRA?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on June 10, 2014, 09:25:47 PM
Say you have money sitting in a saving account or equivalent.  Money isn't making crap but it's nice for an emergency/piece of mind.  However, there are probably better places to put it, while at the same time it would be nice for it to be liquid enough that I could pull it to buy a bigger house or something.  Mutual funds outside of a 401k/retirement account?

Do you have a Roth IRA?

Yeah
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Emo EMAW on June 10, 2014, 09:26:46 PM
Say you have money sitting in a saving account or equivalent.  Money isn't making crap but it's nice for an emergency/piece of mind.  However, there are probably better places to put it, while at the same time it would be nice for it to be liquid enough that I could pull it to buy a bigger house or something.  Mutual funds outside of a 401k/retirement account?

Do you have a Roth IRA?

Yeah

Well there you go.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Asteriskhead on June 10, 2014, 10:19:42 PM
Hire Winters as the gE intern/ rental property handyman. I'll teach him all the skills necessary to be handy.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: meow meow on June 10, 2014, 10:27:48 PM
Say you have money sitting in a saving account or equivalent.  Money isn't making crap but it's nice for an emergency/piece of mind.  However, there are probably better places to put it, while at the same time it would be nice for it to be liquid enough that I could pull it to buy a bigger house or something.  Mutual funds outside of a 401k/retirement account?

Do you have a Roth IRA?

Yeah

Well there you go.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

You can only contribute 5500/year tho
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 10, 2014, 10:42:44 PM
kk, my parents did that for a while.  it's a huge pain in the ass.  but tons of people have made lots of money in mom & pop real estate rentals.  i wouldn't make the decision as an investment choice, more a how do i want to live my life choice.

Ok.  NEW IDEA! 

I take $10-15,000 from my IRA and invest it with my friends that are managing their rental property.

#nextlevel #retirement #achievementunlocked #win
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on June 11, 2014, 12:10:50 AM
investing with friends always goes well
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Tobias on June 11, 2014, 12:20:26 AM

investing with friends always goes well

maybe they're family
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on June 11, 2014, 12:22:59 AM

investing with friends always goes well

maybe they're family

either way no negative consequences
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Tobias on June 11, 2014, 12:23:14 AM
:thumbs:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on June 11, 2014, 12:28:35 AM
Some real stellar advice in this thread.


Gonna win 'em all!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 11, 2014, 12:38:07 AM
Sounds like a lot of people aren't on my level.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Tobias on June 11, 2014, 12:39:26 AM
the market has spoken
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ksupamplemousse on June 11, 2014, 02:30:57 AM
Say you have money sitting in a saving account or equivalent.  Money isn't making crap but it's nice for an emergency/piece of mind.  However, there are probably better places to put it, while at the same time it would be nice for it to be liquid enough that I could pull it to buy a bigger house or something.  Mutual funds outside of a 401k/retirement account?

Do you have a Roth IRA?

Yeah

Well there you go.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

You can only contribute 5500/year tho

Also, not that liquid, pretty big penalty/taxes for early withdrawal/non-qualified distribution.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on June 11, 2014, 04:16:01 AM
Say you have money sitting in a saving account or equivalent.  Money isn't making crap but it's nice for an emergency/piece of mind.  However, there are probably better places to put it, while at the same time it would be nice for it to be liquid enough that I could pull it to buy a bigger house or something.  Mutual funds outside of a 401k/retirement account?

Do you have a Roth IRA?

Yeah

Well there you go.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

You can only contribute 5500/year tho

Also, not that liquid, pretty big penalty/taxes for early withdrawal/non-qualified distribution.

:facepalm:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: steve dave on June 11, 2014, 06:51:16 AM
when I hit rock bottom and get into the pyramid scheme game I'm hitting up KK first day.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 11, 2014, 07:17:13 AM
when I hit rock bottom and get into the pyramid scheme game I'm hitting up KK first day.

Are you elevator pitching me pyramid pizza crossed with scheme? 

My only question:  Aggieville or Poyntz?......or World wide launch?!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on June 11, 2014, 07:18:21 AM
IDEA:  What if for our World Wide Launch.  We called it the World Wide Lunch and we did it on a Friday at lunch because TGIF and TGI have some pizza!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CrushNasty on July 31, 2014, 01:43:52 PM
Started really playing this investing game hard this year.  Hard to sit still now.  :billdance:

Is this the best investing thread on gE? (other than how many credit cards thread)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on July 31, 2014, 03:24:14 PM

Started really playing this investing game hard this year.  Hard to sit still now.  :billdance:

Is this the best investing thread on gE? (other than how many credit cards thread)
like constantly buying and selling?


Gonna win 'em all!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CrushNasty on July 31, 2014, 03:25:36 PM


Started really playing this investing game hard this year.  Hard to sit still now.  :billdance:

Is this the best investing thread on gE? (other than how many credit cards thread)
like constantly buying and selling?


Gonna win 'em all!

No just more active in buying stocks. Used to own 3 before April just for fun. Made one really good/lucky call. Now dabble in ~15 diff stocks.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on July 31, 2014, 10:19:59 PM
Is this the best investing thread on gE? (other than how many credit cards thread)

i think it's the only one.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Spracne on July 31, 2014, 10:41:46 PM
Picks or gtfo
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: CrushNasty on July 31, 2014, 10:48:56 PM

Is this the best investing thread on gE? (other than how many credit cards thread)

i think it's the only one.

Let's gamble!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j-dub on August 09, 2014, 02:15:23 PM
guys, i've got $7,000 in an old employer account that i want to roll over into a roth ira. i don't have a roth yet, i'm just planning on opening one up with that 7,000. can i roll the entire 7,000 over even though it's over the 5500 limit? can the excess be credited to the next year or previous year? what are my options here? i know very little, p.s.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on August 09, 2014, 02:34:46 PM
guys, i've got $7,000 in an old employer account that i want to roll over into a roth ira. i don't have a roth yet, i'm just planning on opening one up with that 7,000. can i roll the entire 7,000 over even though it's over the 5500 limit? can the excess be credited to the next year or previous year? what are my options here? i know very little, p.s.

is the existing account a 401k?  i'm not sure you can roll any of it into a roth if that's the case.  you could roll all of into a regular IRA though.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on August 09, 2014, 02:56:15 PM
guys, i've got $7,000 in an old employer account that i want to roll over into a roth ira. i don't have a roth yet, i'm just planning on opening one up with that 7,000. can i roll the entire 7,000 over even though it's over the 5500 limit? can the excess be credited to the next year or previous year? what are my options here? i know very little, p.s.

assuming it is in a tax-deferred 401k, you can roll it all into a roth.  you'll have to pay taxes on any gains.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: hemmy on August 09, 2014, 02:59:07 PM
Close the 401k and take what's left of that 7,000 and buy a bunch of lottery tickets.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j-dub on August 09, 2014, 03:10:16 PM
it's tax-deferred and will be taxed 10% if i understand correctly. i was just unsure if i could open a roth with more than the 5500 contribution limit..?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j-dub on August 09, 2014, 03:14:41 PM
it's tax-deferred and will be taxed 10% if i understand correctly. i was just unsure if i could open a roth with more than the 5500 contribution limit..?

i think this is wrong. i think 10% would only apply if i took any of the rolled over amount out in the first 5 years. the rollover amount will be taxed in some way though..
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on August 09, 2014, 03:16:52 PM
This is too complicated, just roll it over into an IRA so we can be done with this discussion. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j-dub on August 09, 2014, 03:18:30 PM
i'll try to do my best  :frown:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on August 09, 2014, 03:47:23 PM
it's tax-deferred and will be taxed 10% if i understand correctly. i was just unsure if i could open a roth with more than the 5500 contribution limit..?

yeah, it's a conversion, not a contribution.  no limit on conversions.

Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on August 09, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
Do you expect your income tax bracket to be higher upon retirement? does your employer offer a nice match to 401k contributions?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j-dub on August 09, 2014, 05:52:03 PM
it's tax-deferred and will be taxed 10% if i understand correctly. i was just unsure if i could open a roth with more than the 5500 contribution limit..?

yeah, it's a conversion, not a contribution.  no limit on conversions.

thanks sys!  :love:

that's exactly what i was hoping for.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: j-dub on August 09, 2014, 05:54:46 PM
Do you expect your income tax bracket to be higher upon retirement? does your employer offer a nice match to 401k contributions?


yeah, i expect my tax bracket to increase, that's why i want a roth. they offer a match, not a great one.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: hemmy on August 09, 2014, 09:33:35 PM
Are you considering my lottery ticket idea? You should.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on August 09, 2014, 09:42:30 PM
I was once holding a $50,000 check with my name on it and my cousin was trying to get me to go to the casino and just drop it on black. What if, man, what if?


Gonna win 'em all!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: hemmy on August 10, 2014, 01:57:18 AM
I was once holding a $50,000 check with my name on it and my cousin was trying to get me to go to the casino and just drop it on black. What if, man, what if?


Gonna win 'em all!

You would've won, no doubt about it. Looks like a pretty foolish decision in retrospect.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on August 10, 2014, 12:16:08 PM

I was once holding a $50,000 check with my name on it and my cousin was trying to get me to go to the casino and just drop it on black. What if, man, what if?


Gonna win 'em all!

You would've won, no doubt about it. Looks like a pretty foolish decision in retrospect.
That's what I'm saying. :facepalm: :anger:


Gonna win 'em all!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Asteriskhead on August 12, 2014, 11:44:49 AM
Apparently I've got too much of my 401K invested in company stock. I know next to nothing about this. Should I just pay ING $4 a month to manage it?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on August 12, 2014, 11:50:59 AM
Apparently I've got too much of my 401K invested in company stock. I know next to nothing about this. Should I just pay ING $4 a month to manage it?

No, post the fund options available (along with the expense ratios) and we'll choose for you.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Asteriskhead on August 12, 2014, 12:17:50 PM
Apparently I've got too much of my 401K invested in company stock. I know next to nothing about this. Should I just pay ING $4 a month to manage it?

No, post the fund options available (along with the expense ratios) and we'll choose for you.

Okay, I have to wait for the company to freaking mail me a password to access the website.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on August 12, 2014, 05:56:19 PM
Apparently I've got too much of my 401K invested in company stock. I know next to nothing about this. Should I just pay ING $4 a month to manage it?

No, post the fund options available (along with the expense ratios) and we'll choose for you.

what a great idea.   :excited:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on August 12, 2014, 06:58:03 PM
Also, there will be no voting.  There will only be people that know what they are talking about dispensing advice.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on August 12, 2014, 07:08:45 PM
Yes, post here and michigancat and myself will choose for you.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on August 12, 2014, 07:13:59 PM
currently on hold trying to fix a 401k rollover that got lost. Good god why can't this be an automated process.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: kim carnes on August 12, 2014, 07:16:25 PM
currently on hold trying to fix a 401k rollover that got lost. Good god why can't this be an automated process.

it is automated at non-shitty brokerages
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on August 12, 2014, 07:26:41 PM
currently on hold trying to fix a 401k rollover that got lost. Good god why can't this be an automated process.

it is automated at non-shitty brokerages

So I went to JP Morgan where my old plan was, and they had what I thought was an automated rollover form. I filled it out, and they had an option for rolling over to Charles Schwab, my current plan administrator. The problem was they had the wrong address in their system and mailed the check to the wrong Schwab office, who couldn't process it and I guess through it out or something like a bunch of rough ridin' idiots.

So then I call JP Morgan and tell them to cancel the check. They say they can't cancel it unless I mail them a letter with the old check information, the reason the plan wouldn't accept the check, and a signature. Sweet eff. It's 2014 you fucks.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Asteriskhead on August 12, 2014, 09:11:51 PM
Also, there will be no voting.  There will only be people that know what they are talking about dispensing advice.

Well, duh.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on November 19, 2014, 01:51:27 PM
http://online.barrons.com/articles/jeremy-grantham-u-s-stocks-can-gain-at-least-10-before-crash-1416334236
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: slobber on November 19, 2014, 04:05:35 PM
This thread was about to get good a couple of months ago, then something happened.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on November 19, 2014, 04:55:01 PM
metalhead, as you know, i do investing for a living. PM me and i will choose a fund then you can just fly me over to your island to party in like 15 years and well call it even.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on November 19, 2014, 07:20:13 PM
Metalhead- As Tonya's personal financial adviser I "Advise" you to ignore everything he says. I gave him the password to his account once and he sold every stock then and loaded up on Candy Stocks. Seriously, Hershey/Nestle/Tootsie Roll/etc, he had them all.

He thought they would pay their dividends in real physical candy.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: raquetcat on November 20, 2014, 09:19:34 AM
Just found out about this:
www.betterment.com

Basically they invest in vanguard index funds, but they automatically rebalance your account and do tax loss harvesting. They charge rates that are comparable to vanguard as well, probably worth a deeper look
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on November 25, 2014, 01:27:24 PM
I'm very confused right now. I called Fidelity and asked them about rolling over my last two companies into my cureent one with Fidelity. They told me to get the checks mailed to me and then send it to them. I think I have them (They don't look like the checks i'm use to) now. Am I just suppose to mail these to fidelity now?  :confused: Why couldn't they do this electronically?  :dunno:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Spracne on November 25, 2014, 01:30:15 PM
I'm very confused right now. I called Fidelity and asked them about rolling over my last two companies into my cureent one with Fidelity. They told me to get the checks mailed to me and then send it to them. I think I have them (They don't look like the checks i'm use to) now. Am I just suppose to mail these to fidelity now?  :confused: Why couldn't they do this electronically?  :dunno:

What, did you expect whale treatment?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on November 25, 2014, 01:31:51 PM
I'm very confused right now. I called Fidelity and asked them about rolling over my last two companies into my cureent one with Fidelity. They told me to get the checks mailed to me and then send it to them. I think I have them (They don't look like the checks i'm use to) now. Am I just suppose to mail these to fidelity now?  :confused: Why couldn't they do this electronically?  :dunno:

What, did you expect whale treatment?
I don't know. I'm very uneducated in this department. Do I just sign these checks and mail it to fidelity in one of the packets they sent me?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Spracne on November 25, 2014, 01:35:36 PM
Post pics of the checks on this blob and I will advise. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on November 25, 2014, 01:42:10 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on November 25, 2014, 01:50:23 PM
I'm very confused right now. I called Fidelity and asked them about rolling over my last two companies into my cureent one with Fidelity. They told me to get the checks mailed to me and then send it to them. I think I have them (They don't look like the checks i'm use to) now. Am I just suppose to mail these to fidelity now?  :confused: Why couldn't they do this electronically?  :dunno:

Seems like this could be done electronically to me too, but it isn't. Just send the checks to Fidelity c/o your adviser person you have been talking to. Don't sign them.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on November 25, 2014, 01:51:03 PM
I'm very confused right now. I called Fidelity and asked them about rolling over my last two companies into my cureent one with Fidelity. They told me to get the checks mailed to me and then send it to them. I think I have them (They don't look like the checks i'm use to) now. Am I just suppose to mail these to fidelity now?  :confused: Why couldn't they do this electronically?  :dunno:

Seems like this could be done electronically to me too, but it isn't. Just send the checks to Fidelity c/o your adviser person you have been talking to. Don't sign them.
:thumbs: Thanks!
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on December 16, 2014, 07:43:17 PM
oil (russia).  it'd be fun to be rich.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on December 16, 2014, 09:34:43 PM
Has anyone tried lending club / prosper as a small portion of investment portfolio?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 17, 2014, 02:41:51 PM
UGH!!! I sent two old checks from former companies to fidelity to be rolled over. One of them went through fine (the small check) the other was sent back to my old address cause there was something wrong with the form. I call fidelity and they tell me to call my former employer and cancel that check and order a new one. I do this and my old company tells me that fidelity has already cashed the check and they can't send me a new one. No one knows what's going on or where it is. Just 5K out there floating around and no ones wants to take account for it.  :curse:
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on December 19, 2014, 08:01:22 PM
Robin Hood app launched a week ago.  iPhone app that let's you buy and sell stocks for $0 commission.   If you are into that kind of thing. 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on January 07, 2015, 11:12:01 AM
UGH!!! I sent two old checks from former companies to fidelity to be rolled over. One of them went through fine (the small check) the other was sent back to my old address cause there was something wrong with the form. I called fidelity and they tell me to call my former employer and cancel that check and order a new one. I do this and my old company tells me that fidelity has already cashed the check and they can't send me a new one. No one knows what's going on or where it is. Just 5K out there floating around and no ones wants to take account for it.  :curse:
This is seriously starting to worry me. Fidelity allegedly sent back the check to me, but to my old address, and I never received it. UOP doesn't want to cut a new check, cause their records show fidelity cashed it, but it's not in my account. Fidelity is still telling me they sent it back to me, but I've never received it. This is unreal.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: michigancat on January 07, 2015, 11:16:19 AM
UGH!!! I sent two old checks from former companies to fidelity to be rolled over. One of them went through fine (the small check) the other was sent back to my old address cause there was something wrong with the form. I called fidelity and they tell me to call my former employer and cancel that check and order a new one. I do this and my old company tells me that fidelity has already cashed the check and they can't send me a new one. No one knows what's going on or where it is. Just 5K out there floating around and no ones wants to take account for it.  :curse:
This is seriously starting to worry me. Fidelity allegedly sent back the check to me, but to my old address, and I never received it. UOP doesn't want to cut a new check, cause their records show fidelity cashed it, but it's not in my account. Fidelity is still telling me they sent it back to me, but I've never received it. This is unreal.

yeah, I had a check get lost and eventually the people that sent the check realized it got lost and it's back in my original account. It's rough ridin' dumbfounding that companies like this have to send paper checks in 2015. I guess they do it to discourage people from moving their money but holy eff.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on January 07, 2015, 11:21:03 AM
It's unbelievable that they can't just wire it party-to-party. Now i'm just loost, wondering where that money is and who's going to take care of it. I'm sure it will workout, but i'm getting angrier by the day.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on February 25, 2015, 03:47:33 AM
http://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8093957/hedge-fund-racket-chart (http://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8093957/hedge-fund-racket-chart)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on February 27, 2015, 05:47:12 PM
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2015/02/27/2120422/meet-the-man-who-could-own-aviva-france/

this is a good investing method.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: Tobias on February 27, 2015, 05:55:50 PM
unreal
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 12, 2015, 03:44:42 PM
https://www.motifinvesting.com/offers/offer_150trade

i'm going to open an account in the near future.  i expect it's a pretty janky service, and you have to be careful not to rebalance when they prompt you to.  but for a $100 incentive, i'll give it a try.  if the tax reporting isn't mumped up, i'll probably keep the account.  it may help me overcome some investing emotional hangups i have.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 20, 2015, 08:49:31 PM
Alright guyz, school me in HSA's. I read some wikipedia/random google articles but I know gE can do a better job.

Question

1. My employer does not offer a HSA, can I still open one? I have fidelity accounts for my Roth IRA/Rollover IRA but after a brief search of their website it looks like they don't offer HSA's.


I'm a single bro in my 20's so I don't have many medical expenses. I mainly want to sock away some money because I know that at some point I or my future family will have medical expenses.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: hemmy on April 20, 2015, 09:01:14 PM
http://www.optumbank.com/About%20Health%20Savings%20Accounts/HSA%20Eligibility - We used to use Optum Bank as our HSA provider at work. They don't have many investment options (or didn't at the time, like 20 or so mutual funds) and they charge a yearly fee (which was covered by my employer). We now use fidelity, so they DO over HSA's but they might require it be through an employer. Optum let's you create an HSA for yourself.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: WillieWatanabe on April 20, 2015, 09:22:57 PM
It's unbelievable that they can't just wire it party-to-party. Now i'm just loost, wondering where that money is and who's going to take care of it. I'm sure it will workout, but i'm getting angrier by the day.

update?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 20, 2015, 09:32:59 PM
Did some more research and according to the IRS website

Quote
No permission or authorization from the IRS is necessary to establish an HSA. You set up an HSA with a trustee. A qualified HSA trustee can be a bank, an insurance company, or anyone already approved by the IRS to be a trustee of individual retirement arrangements (IRAs) or Archer MSAs. The HSA can be established through a trustee that is different from your health plan provider.

Unfortunately it does not look like Fidelity offers individual HSA plans. Does anyone have a HSA as an individual and not through their work?
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: wetwillie on April 20, 2015, 09:36:33 PM
Any bank in kc will open one for you.  This commerce bank link is an example of what you want https://www.commercebank.com/personal/saving/health-savings-account.asp (https://www.commercebank.com/personal/saving/health-savings-account.asp)
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: LibDerp7BubbleBoy on April 20, 2015, 09:40:51 PM
you just open a new savings account and designate it as an hsa.  one in manhattan (community first) made me do $50 to start, but the one in topeka (credit union) didn't.  if you want to invest it or something then i have no clue
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 20, 2015, 10:00:05 PM
Also, tell me what you think about this.

Currently I have about 1/3 of my retirement in a Roth IRA and 2/3 in a regular IRA I rolled over from an old 401k.

My work offers a regular 401k and a Roth 401k. I currently make the maximum yearly contribution to the Roth IRA so I opted for the regular 401k and contribute just over what I need to to get the employer match(Its puny but I get a PENSION?!? What? Puny too tho).

In regards to Taxes it is currently advantageous to go with the Roth 401k right now based on my current/future tax bracket projections but I decided against it because I like the idea of having both tax deferred and non tax deferred options when I retire.

My current thinking is that I can live my basic life off the 401k/SS(lol)/Pension and use the tax free(in retirement) money from my Roth IRA for big expenses (New car/Travel/Fishing boat/etc etc).

Thoughts?

 
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: ben ji on April 20, 2015, 10:03:47 PM
Any bank in kc will open one for you.  This commerce bank link is an example of what you want https://www.commercebank.com/personal/saving/health-savings-account.asp (https://www.commercebank.com/personal/saving/health-savings-account.asp)

you just open a new savings account and designate it as an hsa.  one in manhattan (community first) made me do $50 to start, but the one in topeka (credit union) didn't.  if you want to invest it or something then i have no clue

Thanks guyz. I have accounts at 2 banks in KC but from cruising their website it looks like they do not offer HSA's. I'll have to give them a call and find out if they offer them or if I need to ditch one of them and find another bank.
Title: Re: New To Investing Thread
Post by: sys on April 20, 2015, 10:16:40 PM
Also, tell me what you think about this.

Currently I have about 1/3 of my retirement in a Roth IRA and 2/3 in a regular IRA I rolled over from an old 401k.

M