2013 QB Competition: Sams vs. Waters

[GoodForAnother]

Maybe we'll use Sams like a super Denard Robinson 

good comparo

Oh man guys look about 4 posts up. K Thx.

sorry, I generally skip any post longer than like 10 words

[DQ12]

personally i don't think bookie pimp is giving Snyder enough credit as a pioneer in creating new offensive schemes.  i think it's unlikely we see the "tecmo bowl" offense that CNS is describing, but i certainly wouldn't be shocked to see snyder do something like that.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I would think that if Bill wants to try something and Bill has the personnel, that we may see Bill try what Bill wants.   

Grats on being able to watch football and know what a blocker is, though.

I'm pretty sure everybody that's not a mouth breather here already understands that I've likely learned and forgotten more about the game of american football than you'll ever know. 

Keep reaching.  It's cute.

You're being Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and it's because you think I was mean to you earlier.  I get it, but it's stupid to plant so hard in the ground on this.  I haven't even stated anything other than saying I would like to see what Bill himself would like to see. 

Your effort on this is not well directed. 

You will have other opportunities.  I don't always think before I post.

No.  Actually, I'd already let that go... I don't hold grudges and that's a whole nother issue.

We know that "Bill's gonna Bill" and we also know that generally speaking, Coach is VERY risk averse.   I was simply pointing out why I don't see them being on the field much at the same time, unless it's to line Sams up in the slot as Nuts Kicked suggested earlier.  Regardless, you're almost screaming "Its a pass play" if/when you bring them into the game at the same time, imho.

That might be the best part of the scheme, though. Sams is an above average passer and Waters is an above average runner, so the defense could adjust based upon who lines up under center and leave gaping holes for Sams to throw against or Waters to run against.

I agree with you that it probably won't happen, but it would be pretty fun to watch.

[Mixed-Nutz]

personally i don't think bookie pimp is giving Snyder enough credit as a pioneer in creating new offensive schemes.  i think it's unlikely we see the "tecmo bowl" offense that CNS is describing, but i certainly wouldn't be shocked to see snyder do something like that.

I wouldn't just look forward but look backwards.

[420seriouscat69]

Has Trim called Snyder a racist yet?

[Bqqkie Pimp]

personally i don't think bookie pimp is giving Snyder enough credit as a pioneer in creating new offensive schemes.  i think it's unlikely we see the "tecmo bowl" offense that CNS is describing, but i certainly wouldn't be shocked to see snyder do something like that.

I think you're missing the point, completely brotha... The more you understand about how our offense truly works and what all we are running, the more you realize how "gimmicky" this would be.  Could it happen?  Sure.  Will it on a consistent basis?  Not likely.

I wouldn't be shocked to see an occasional play or two, but whole packages are highly unlikely.  It just goes against the "consistency" factor we've grown to know and love. 

As for being a "pioneer in creating new offensive schemes", that's a stretch.  The more one understands the base principles of veer and single-wing offenses, the more you realize he's just added some modern wrinkles to some old offenses that have been tried and true since Bill Yeoman and Pop Warner created those schemes.

[michigancat]

If I were a coach in a similar situation (two fairly close options with a slate of awful competition), I would alternate QB's every possession, and compare how they do in every situation (down and distance, field position, hash, etc.) Call every drive like it's a tied game. I'd already be doing this in practice, too. If one isn't clearly superior at every situation, play the QB that is superior in each particular situation.

This is obviously way oversimplified, but it is IMO the best approach to a 2QB scenario. I also like to think some version of this will take place (or is already).

[Katpappy]

I could see Sams being a red zone / goal line qb.

So our own Belldozer.   

If Waters is a badass and stuff, I would like to see Sams as a WR.  He needs to be on the field as much as possible.  Make him into a Tavon Austin or something.

the way we play our QBs get hurt all the time. I'm guessing one of these guys gets grant gregory'd this season no matter what and I'm happy we have a good backup (hopefully good anyway)

I was just lurking and enjoying this thread, but this post is to good to pass up without commenting.  And by that I mean I just wanted to give you one of these.. and maybe a couple of these... 

Three thumbs 

You don't know what Katdaddy is capeable of. 

[WildcatNkilt]

One other thing I was thinking of how a 2 QB system could work is the pace of the game.

Someone mentioned earlier how the squad was breaking the huddle or doing no-huddle in practices.  The O-Line would sprint up to the ball (Baylor and Oregon-esque).  Obviously this could all be for conditioning.

But....a 2 QB system where we could run Sams out there as QB (after a 1st down) when the D is worn out and get some pretty easy yards after every snap.  If we now have an extra referee to spot the ball, why not try and use it to our advantage?  Seems very anti-Snyder, but with an experienced O-Line, quick WR's and RB, and the ability to bring in a fresh QB after every first down I see it as a possibility to catch horrible Big 12 defenses on their heels.  Dink, Dunk, sweeps, and options.... then go long when the CB's and FS's are gasping for air. 

I'm stretching here guys on how Sams is going to get some valuable snaps this season.   

[bubbles4ksu]

if they are on the field at the same time it will be in the pistol with sams behind waters. it will be a mostly passing package, but there will be some toss or option plays designed to keep the safety from coming up into the alley because of the pass threat from sams.

bill knows his qb is going to take some abuse. he doesn't want his 2nd qb out there getting hurt or tired while blocking and running routes. if i'm wrong and they are on the field together in some other fashion you guys can place me against a wall and shoot me.

[Rage Against the McKee]

if they are on the field at the same time it will be in the pistol with sams behind waters. it will be a mostly passing package, but there will be some toss or option plays designed to keep the safety from coming up into the alley because of the pass threat from sams.

bill knows his qb is going to take some abuse. he doesn't want his 2nd qb out there getting hurt or tired while blocking and running routes. if i'm wrong and they are on the field together in some other fashion you guys can place me against a wall and shoot me.

Sams would take far more abuse as the running back in the pistol than he would ever take lining up in the slot.

[michigancat]

Also, people like to forget how rigid Tecmo Bowl play-calling was.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Also, people like to forget how rigid Tecmo Bowl play-calling was.

Yeah. You had like 4 plays and it wasn't like you were running some high level trick play offense. I really don't understand why people want to call putting 2 QBs on the field a Tecmo offense. You couldn't do that in Tecmo at all. You would have better luck trying that in Madden, honestly.

[bubbles4ksu]

if they are on the field at the same time it will be in the pistol with sams behind waters. it will be a mostly passing package, but there will be some toss or option plays designed to keep the safety from coming up into the alley because of the pass threat from sams.

bill knows his qb is going to take some abuse. he doesn't want his 2nd qb out there getting hurt or tired while blocking and running routes. if i'm wrong and they are on the field together in some other fashion you guys can place me against a wall and shoot me.

Sams would take far more abuse as the running back in the pistol than he would ever take lining up in the slot.

he would have lined up in the slot last year if snyder was willing to do that. snyder isn't going to have his second string qb run routes. that takes away from his attentiveness to his job as a qb. inattentive qbs turn the ball over and LHC Bill Snyder rough ridin' loathes turnovers.

[Rage Against the McKee]

if they are on the field at the same time it will be in the pistol with sams behind waters. it will be a mostly passing package, but there will be some toss or option plays designed to keep the safety from coming up into the alley because of the pass threat from sams.

bill knows his qb is going to take some abuse. he doesn't want his 2nd qb out there getting hurt or tired while blocking and running routes. if i'm wrong and they are on the field together in some other fashion you guys can place me against a wall and shoot me.

Sams would take far more abuse as the running back in the pistol than he would ever take lining up in the slot.

he would have lined up in the slot last year if snyder was willing to do that. snyder isn't going to have his second string qb run routes. that takes away from his attentiveness to his job as a qb. inattentive qbs turn the ball over and LHC Bill Snyder rough ridin' loathes turnovers.

Maybe. Last year we didn't have Waters, though, and it looked like Sams was going to be the starter for 3 years. Playmakers on the sideline don't make plays.

[GoodForAnother]

60 plays per game

45 for waters
10 for sams
5 with both on field

imo

[DQ12]

personally i don't think bookie pimp is giving Snyder enough credit as a pioneer in creating new offensive schemes.  i think it's unlikely we see the "tecmo bowl" offense that CNS is describing, but i certainly wouldn't be shocked to see snyder do something like that.

I think you're missing the point, completely brotha... The more you understand about how our offense truly works and what all we are running, the more you realize how "gimmicky" this would be.  Could it happen?  Sure.  Will it on a consistent basis?  Not likely.

I wouldn't be shocked to see an occasional play or two, but whole packages are highly unlikely.  It just goes against the "consistency" factor we've grown to know and love. 

As for being a "pioneer in creating new offensive schemes", that's a stretch.  The more one understands the base principles of veer and single-wing offenses, the more you realize he's just added some modern wrinkles to some old offenses that have been tried and true since Bill Yeoman and Pop Warner created those schemes.

Just to be clear, I don't think any kind of 2-QBs-at-the-same-time system will be the norm, but again, we're talking about the guy who arguably invented the wildcat formation.  Snyder's offenses have the penchant for being absolutely batshit crazy at times.  That speed option we ran with Carsy where he "options" to the slot back comes to mind.

In any case, I just think it's important to remember how huge Snyder's playbook is and how, above all else, he builds his offenses around the particular talent he has.  Whether it's the pass heavy attack with May, the Ell-esque options, or the power QB run game with Klein.

Just because something worked with Klein doesn't mean Snyder's going to stick with it when Sams or Waters come around.

[Bqqkie Pimp]

personally i don't think bookie pimp is giving Snyder enough credit as a pioneer in creating new offensive schemes.  i think it's unlikely we see the "tecmo bowl" offense that CNS is describing, but i certainly wouldn't be shocked to see snyder do something like that.

I think you're missing the point, completely brotha... The more you understand about how our offense truly works and what all we are running, the more you realize how "gimmicky" this would be.  Could it happen?  Sure.  Will it on a consistent basis?  Not likely.

I wouldn't be shocked to see an occasional play or two, but whole packages are highly unlikely.  It just goes against the "consistency" factor we've grown to know and love. 

As for being a "pioneer in creating new offensive schemes", that's a stretch.  The more one understands the base principles of veer and single-wing offenses, the more you realize he's just added some modern wrinkles to some old offenses that have been tried and true since Bill Yeoman and Pop Warner created those schemes.

Just to be clear, I don't think any kind of 2-QBs-at-the-same-time system will be the norm, but again, we're talking about the guy who arguably invented the wildcat formation.  Snyder's offenses have the penchant for being absolutely batshit crazy at times.  That speed option we ran with Carsy where he "options" to the slot back comes to mind.

In any case, I just think it's important to remember how huge Snyder's playbook is and how, above all else, he builds his offenses around the particular talent he has.  Whether it's the pass heavy attack with May, the Ell-esque options, or the power QB run game with Klein.

Just because something worked with Klein doesn't mean Snyder's going to stick with it when Sams or Waters come around.

Maybe splitting hairs, but there is a crap-ton of difference between "making it popular at the college level" and "inventing it".  The "wildcat formation" and the "speed option with the slot back as pitch man" are both single wing plays that Pop Warner invented in the early 1900's and fell "out of style" in the collegiate game around 1950 or so.

What makes it CRAZY hard to defend is we'll run veer principles out of a pro-set look or a single wing play out of trips... NOBODY does as many variables on plays as Snyder.

Lastly, I trust that your last two points/paragraphs were solely for those with super LFBIQ because I'm guessing even the NDSU fans get that much.

[DQ12]

Lastly, I trust that your last two points/paragraphs were solely for those with super LFBIQ because I'm guessing even the NDSU fans get that much.

Well that's the trouble.  You're assuming that you have some idea of what Snyder's offense is going to look like this year when I don't think you have any idea what the hell you're talking about.

[GoodForAnother]

personally i don't think bookie pimp is giving Snyder enough credit as a pioneer in creating new offensive schemes.  i think it's unlikely we see the "tecmo bowl" offense that CNS is describing, but i certainly wouldn't be shocked to see snyder do something like that.

I think you're missing the point, completely brotha... The more you understand about how our offense truly works and what all we are running, the more you realize how "gimmicky" this would be.  Could it happen?  Sure.  Will it on a consistent basis?  Not likely.

I wouldn't be shocked to see an occasional play or two, but whole packages are highly unlikely.  It just goes against the "consistency" factor we've grown to know and love. 

As for being a "pioneer in creating new offensive schemes", that's a stretch.  The more one understands the base principles of veer and single-wing offenses, the more you realize he's just added some modern wrinkles to some old offenses that have been tried and true since Bill Yeoman and Pop Warner created those schemes.

Just to be clear, I don't think any kind of 2-QBs-at-the-same-time system will be the norm, but again, we're talking about the guy who arguably invented the wildcat formation.  Snyder's offenses have the penchant for being absolutely batshit crazy at times.  That speed option we ran with Carsy where he "options" to the slot back comes to mind.

In any case, I just think it's important to remember how huge Snyder's playbook is and how, above all else, he builds his offenses around the particular talent he has.  Whether it's the pass heavy attack with May, the Ell-esque options, or the power QB run game with Klein.

Just because something worked with Klein doesn't mean Snyder's going to stick with it when Sams or Waters come around.

good thoughts here.  it kills me when people use the term "the snyder offense."  what we ran with klein was the 3rd or 4th different offensive style he's run in his tenure.

[Lucas Scoopsalot]

So many Tuck talking pts going on here

[Bqqkie Pimp]

Lastly, I trust that your last two points/paragraphs were solely for those with super LFBIQ because I'm guessing even the NDSU fans get that much.

Well that's the trouble.  You're assuming that you have some idea of what Snyder's offense is going to look like this year when I don't think you have any idea what the hell you're talking about.

The reason you don't think I know what I'm talking about is because you don't understand the base principles of the offenses from which our offense is derived. 

Knowing what we've done historically with similar skill sets to that of Waters and Sams gives me a pretty good idea of which section of the playbook will get the most work...  Well that, and still having relationships within the program that still share general bits of information that give a reasonable insight.

How many times does LHCBS have to say that we run the same offense every year, we just  feature different aspects based on the skill sets of our skill position players before you non-athlete types start to get it?

[DQ12]

Lastly, I trust that your last two points/paragraphs were solely for those with super LFBIQ because I'm guessing even the NDSU fans get that much.

Well that's the trouble.  You're assuming that you have some idea of what Snyder's offense is going to look like this year when I don't think you have any idea what the hell you're talking about.

The reason you don't think I know what I'm talking about is because you don't understand the base principles of the offenses from which our offense is derived. 

Knowing what we've done historically with similar skill sets to that of Waters and Sams gives me a pretty good idea of which section of the playbook will get the most work...  Well that, and still having relationships within the program that still share general bits of information that give a reasonable insight.

How many times does LHCBS have to say that we run the same offense every year, we just  feature different aspects based on the skill sets of our skill position players before you non-athlete types start to get it?

Again, there's the disconnect.  Call it semantics or whatever.  I agree that we're going to utilize option reads in some capacity, even with Waters, but if you're going to call last year's offense "the same" as the one we saw under May then I think our conversation's about over.

[michigancat]

drink once every time bookie says "principles", twice every time he says "veer". finish your drink for every reference to playing football/you not playing football.

[Dub]

drink once every time bookie says "principles", twice every time he says "veer". finish your drink for every reference to playing football/you not playing football.