2013 QB Competition: Sams vs. Waters

[p1k3]

Waters' INT problem is concerning.

[MakeItRain]

Waters isn't terrible, but he is averaging 2 turnovers a game, cannot convert on 3rd and short, and struggles in the red zone.  All of those things are big issues.

against really crappy competition

Sagarin rated NDSU 49th and ULL 76th after last weeks games.    While not stellar, thats not "really crappy" either.      Just a few above NDSU are Arkansas and Mizzou....would you categorize them as "really crappy" if you were being honest?

Now do the rest of the schedule, after last weeks games.

[PowercatPat]

Waters isn't terrible, but he is averaging 2 turnovers a game, cannot convert on 3rd and short, and struggles in the red zone.  All of those things are big issues.

One of those turnovers was on a hail mary and the other was Miller being a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and not being able to catch a simple screen pass. His other two INT's were bad though.

It wasn't a hail mary bad person. I'm so sick of people dismissing that 2nd int last week. He had 30 seconds to move 50 yards and threw a pick on the first damn play, completely inexcusable

It was a designed roll out and pretty much everyone ran fly routes. It was an awful play call.

[Mikeyis4dcats]

Waters isn't terrible, but he is averaging 2 turnovers a game, cannot convert on 3rd and short, and struggles in the red zone.  All of those things are big issues.

we don't convert on 3rd and short, because Bill insists on running Waters in obvious rushing situations, and then does even stipuder things such the read option end around on 4th and 1.

Waters has thrown 2 picks, one yesterday was off the face of a receiver, hardly Water's fault, the other was a dub move tossing into triple coverage.   Against NDSU he had 1 dumb pick, then another desperation pick where IIRC he appeared to be trying to throw it away at the end of the game to stop the clock.

I'd have to see a list of the plays, but in the red zone we often shrivel up and try to run, again, not Waters' strong suit.    Waters is a decent QB when called upon to do the things he does well.   It is on the coaching staff to use Waters AND Sams to the best of their abilities.

Waters threw 333 attempts at IWU, with only 3 picks.    Give him some time, and I think he will settle in.   I like the double-edged attack, but would like to see Sams used me like Belldozer in situational rushing in addition to leading some drives now and then.

Red zone and 3rd and short are where running the ball is key.  If Waters wants to be in the game, he needs to be more effective than he is.  I don't care who's fault it is (O-Line, Waters, play call), the fact is that Sams gets it done and Waters can't.  What is your solution on 3rd and 1 with Waters?  Hubert is ineffective with Waters in.  Do you want to pass it a lot on 3rd and short?

I also don't care whose fault the interceptions are.  They are the result of running a pass centered offense and they are happening.  Sams wouldn't be putting the ball at risk as much if he were in the game. 

Also, Sagarin rankings in week 2 are a joke

As I said   

I like the double-edged attack, but would like to see Sams used more like Belldozer in situational rushing in addition to leading some drives now and then.

No reason Sams SHOULDN'T be used in these cases, it boggles my mind he hasn't been.   but that doesn't mean he deserves the starting job.

And yes, Sagarin is a joke right now, but it's all we've got.   

And from what I read between the lines, with Sams running the offense a starter and having to pass I believe we would be seeing just as many, if not more picks.

[Rams]

I get people wanting Sams to start. I don't get making Waters the football version of Sprads.

goEMAW's gonna goEMAW

You are a really good poster, but a rough ridin' moron when pull the rams is morally and intellectually superior to everyone else bullshit. Blow it out of your ass.

well that wasn't very nice

[MakeItRain]

Waters isn't terrible, but he is averaging 2 turnovers a game, cannot convert on 3rd and short, and struggles in the red zone.  All of those things are big issues.

One of those turnovers was on a hail mary and the other was Miller being a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and not being able to catch a simple screen pass. His other two INT's were bad though.

It wasn't a hail mary bad person. I'm so sick of people dismissing that 2nd int last week. He had 30 seconds to move 50 yards and threw a pick on the first damn play, completely inexcusable

It was a designed roll out and pretty much everyone ran fly routes. It was an awful play call.

Wait, the bad play call caused the pic that didn't count because it was a hail mary on our own 25 with 29 seconds left?

[MakeItRain]

Some of you dorks need to rewatch the Oklahoma State game from last year. Sams can throw just fine.

This is such a dumb post. He threw 6 rough ridin' passes and all were simple, short passes. How can you conclude from a half of football and 6 total passes that he can throw?

Plus, there's a reason Waters came in on 3 and 14 at the end of the game. It's because Sams can't throw.

 

Are we watching the same crap, that is all Waters is doing?

[OB_Won]

I think I am inferring that people are implying that Sams can't throw the ball, yet I linked all 8 of his passes last year, and this is just simply not true.  He was a freshman and threw into double coverage a couple times, but the rest were good throws, and even the announcers stated so.  Also, he threw ok in the spring game.  Then I think people are implying that he lacks ball security.  How many turnovers has he accounted for in two seasons? Zero.  He averages nearly 8 yards a run over two years and 40+ rushes.

[star seed 7]

The Sams can't throw and snyder is deathly afraid to let him throw talking points are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!), and I will heavily judge the character of anyone that uses them.

[GoodForAnother]

sams is def more lovable.  tapping that male cheerleader on the shoulder

When was this?

pretty sure one of his 2nd half runs. sams ran out of bounds, almost ran into a cheerleader but stopped just in time right in front of the cheerleader, patted him on the shoulder. cheerleader grinned and sams ran off.

[SwiftCat]

Yeah, half of those turnovers weren't his fault because the rest of the team sucked and frank was playing him out of position.

It's so hard to argue with steve dave. Waters is not a Spradling equivalent, but how can anyone truly hold that stance after a post like this.

[eastcat]

I think I am inferring that people are implying that Sams can't throw the ball, yet I linked all 8 of his passes last year, and this is just simply not true.  He was a freshman and threw into double coverage a couple times, but the rest were good throws, and even the announcers stated so.  Also, he threw ok in the spring game.  Then I think people are implying that he lacks ball security.  How many turnovers has he accounted for in two seasons? Zero.  He averages nearly 8 yards a run over two years and 40+ rushes.

Ball security is pretty easy when rushing against tired/zapped defenses. Last year most teams line up against us in the 4-3-4 and sometimes 4-4-3 to stop Klein. Throwing against that is pretty cut and dry. Klein was a machine and Sams is not built to take half as many carries.

Waters is throwing 30-40 passes a game into 4-2-5 coverage. At some points ULL was running a 4-1-6 with a rover. That's SIX DB's covering THREE receivers. I swear some of you smoke crack.

Both interceptions were passes to Torrell Miller. He also lost a down and backed us up with his step out of bounds stunt. Bench Toe.

[PowercatPat]

Waters isn't terrible, but he is averaging 2 turnovers a game, cannot convert on 3rd and short, and struggles in the red zone.  All of those things are big issues.

One of those turnovers was on a hail mary and the other was Miller being a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and not being able to catch a simple screen pass. His other two INT's were bad though.

It wasn't a hail mary bad person. I'm so sick of people dismissing that 2nd int last week. He had 30 seconds to move 50 yards and threw a pick on the first damn play, completely inexcusable

It was a designed roll out and pretty much everyone ran fly routes. It was an awful play call.

Wait, the bad play call caused the pic that didn't count because it was a hail mary on our own 25 with 29 seconds left?

Go watch the replay. JFC.

[PowercatPat]

Some of you dorks need to rewatch the Oklahoma State game from last year. Sams can throw just fine.

This is such a dumb post. He threw 6 rough ridin' passes and all were simple, short passes. How can you conclude from a half of football and 6 total passes that he can throw?

Plus, there's a reason Waters came in on 3 and 14 at the end of the game. It's because Sams can't throw.

 

Are we watching the same crap, that is all Waters is doing?

Did you not watch his two TD passes against NDSU? Did you also notice that Waters came into the game on 3 and 14 at the end of the game because it was an obvious long yardage passing down?

[kostakio]

I don't think waters sucks at all.  He's one of the more effective players on our team but I feel he is the second most effective player at his position.

[steve dave]

Yeah, half of those turnovers weren't his fault because the rest of the team sucked and frank was playing him out of position.

It's so hard to argue with steve dave. Waters is not a Spradling equivalent, but how can anyone truly hold that stance after a post like this.

I'm not really arguing that he is a Spradling equivalent fwiw. I'm mostly arguing that the apologists of him are hilariously similar to the apologists of Spradling.

[Stevesie60]

I don't think waters sucks at all.  He's one of the more effective players on our team but I feel he is the second most effective player at his position.

Well said.

[Trim]

sams is def more lovable.  tapping that male cheerleader on the shoulder

When was this?

pretty sure one of his 2nd half runs. sams ran out of bounds, almost ran into a cheerleader but stopped just in time right in front of the cheerleader, patted him on the shoulder. cheerleader grinned and sams ran off.

Found it.  9:50 left in the game.

[OB_Won]

I think I am inferring that people are implying that Sams can't throw the ball, yet I linked all 8 of his passes last year, and this is just simply not true.  He was a freshman and threw into double coverage a couple times, but the rest were good throws, and even the announcers stated so.  Also, he threw ok in the spring game.  Then I think people are implying that he lacks ball security.  How many turnovers has he accounted for in two seasons? Zero.  He averages nearly 8 yards a run over two years and 40+ rushes.

Ball security is pretty easy when rushing against tired/zapped defenses. Last year most teams line up against us in the 4-3-4 and sometimes 4-4-3 to stop Klein. Throwing against that is pretty cut and dry. Klein was a machine and Sams is not built to take half as many carries.

Waters is throwing 30-40 passes a game into 4-2-5 coverage. At some points ULL was running a 4-1-6 with a rover. That's SIX DB's covering THREE receivers. I swear some of you smoke crack.

Both interceptions were passes to Torrell Miller. He also lost a down and backed us up with his step out of bounds stunt. Bench Toe.

Great points. Except Sams has rushed in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters with great success. Also, how will the defenses that Sams threw so "cut and dry" against last year be any different this year when they pack it in to stuff the run threat?  I guess if Sams isn't built to take punishment we should probably leave our most dynamic player on the bench so he doesn't get hurt. 

Lastly, shouldn't six defensive backs make it much easier for a team built around the QB run game to actually run the ball?  I guess if they're going to cover 3 guys with 6 we may as well just get used to turnovers, and lack of production in a packed in red zone, right?   

[SwiftCat]

I'm not really arguing that he is a Spradling equivalent fwiw. I'm mostly arguing that the apologists of him are hilariously similar to the apologists of Spradling.

I agree with that more than I agree with what I previously thought you meant.

[MakeItRain]

I think I am inferring that people are implying that Sams can't throw the ball, yet I linked all 8 of his passes last year, and this is just simply not true.  He was a freshman and threw into double coverage a couple times, but the rest were good throws, and even the announcers stated so.  Also, he threw ok in the spring game.  Then I think people are implying that he lacks ball security.  How many turnovers has he accounted for in two seasons? Zero.  He averages nearly 8 yards a run over two years and 40+ rushes.

Ball security is pretty easy when rushing against tired/zapped defenses. Last year most teams line up against us in the 4-3-4 and sometimes 4-4-3 to stop Klein. Throwing against that is pretty cut and dry. Klein was a machine and Sams is not built to take half as many carries.

Waters is throwing 30-40 passes a game into 4-2-5 coverage. At some points ULL was running a 4-1-6 with a rover. That's SIX DB's covering THREE receivers. I swear some of you smoke crack.

Both interceptions were passes to Torrell Miller. He also lost a down and backed us up with his step out of bounds stunt. Bench Toe.

How do you not realize your argument about the defenses is exactly why team #life wants more #life? He is dynamic a defense can't just drop 6 DBs and call it good. Having a dynamic offense is fun for us and ridiculous for a defense to plan for. Everything is looser offensively with a true dual threat qb, its how kstate has won football games the last 16 seasons. It seems like you are using the fact that the two, average at best, defenses keyed on the pass against Waters as a defense of more Waters. This is obviously stupid.

Also stop blaming Toe for both of those INTs. One was clearly his fault, the other wasn't.  Toe also didn't cause us to be backed up and lose a down. There is no yardage penalty for illegal touching, just loss of down. Of course none of that matters because Toe didn't even catch the ball because Jake skipped the pass to him.

[kostakio]

The only time we've shown any kind of effective running game has been when SAMs is in.  Hubert had maybe his two best runs of the year back to back with SAMs in.  Nothing against waters but this team and offense is built for the qb run game.  You can blame interceptions on toe miller but the bigger picture to me is that craps happens because toe miller isn't meant to be a wr in a spread offense.

[OB_Won]

I think I am inferring that people are implying that Sams can't throw the ball, yet I linked all 8 of his passes last year, and this is just simply not true.  He was a freshman and threw into double coverage a couple times, but the rest were good throws, and even the announcers stated so.  Also, he threw ok in the spring game.  Then I think people are implying that he lacks ball security.  How many turnovers has he accounted for in two seasons? Zero.  He averages nearly 8 yards a run over two years and 40+ rushes.

Ball security is pretty easy when rushing against tired/zapped defenses. Last year most teams line up against us in the 4-3-4 and sometimes 4-4-3 to stop Klein. Throwing against that is pretty cut and dry. Klein was a machine and Sams is not built to take half as many carries.

Waters is throwing 30-40 passes a game into 4-2-5 coverage. At some points ULL was running a 4-1-6 with a rover. That's SIX DB's covering THREE receivers. I swear some of you smoke crack.

Both interceptions were passes to Torrell Miller. He also lost a down and backed us up with his step out of bounds stunt. Bench Toe.

How do you not realize your argument about the defenses is exactly why team #life wants more #life? He is dynamic a defense can't just drop 6 DBs and call it good. Having a dynamic offense is fun for us and ridiculous for a defense to plan for. Everything is looser offensively with a true dual threat qb, its how kstate has won football games the last 16 seasons. It seems like you are using the fact that the two, average at best, defenses keyed on the pass against Waters as a defense of more Waters. This is obviously stupid.

Also stop blaming Toe for both of those INTs. One was clearly his fault, the other wasn't.  Toe also didn't cause us to be backed up and lose a down. There is no yardage penalty for illegal touching, just loss of down. Of course none of that matters because Toe didn't even catch the ball because Jake skipped the pass to him.

MIR, don't even get me started on how stupid throwing the ball 40 times is with a TERRIBLE defense.  The thing is, I actually really like Waters.  I just like what Sams can bring to the entire team more, and wish he'd get a legit chance to run the offense for at least a half.  No doubt the coaching staff knows much more about football than I do.  However, I see Sams score touchdowns and not turn the ball over.  The same can't be said for Waters.  What do I know, I just smoke crack all day.

[MakeItRain]

On how he [OBz] used the two quarterback system…

“There was a plan in place, but like everything else, you have a plan and all of a sudden the plan goes awry and you veer off of it. That was reasonably close to what we wanted to do, but we did not do it as consistently as we initially thought we would.”

http://www.kstatesports.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/090813aaa.html

That post game press conference was an embarrassing dance of townie media seeing an elephant in the room but not wanting to be direct with Snyder to extract answers. All questions danced around what happened, all questions comfortable enough for Snyder to give a vanilla non-answer.

[MakeItRain]

Yeah, people bitching about the defense should do a comparison of the first half and then the third quarter when Jake couldn't move the offense and Sams didn't take a single snap.