2013 QB Competition: Sams vs. Waters

[kim carnes]

Waters isn't terrible, but he is averaging 2 turnovers a game, cannot convert on 3rd and short, and struggles in the red zone.  All of those things are big issues.

against really crappy competition

Sagarin rated NDSU 49th and ULL 76th after last weeks games.    While not stellar, thats not "really crappy" either.      Just a few above NDSU are Arkansas and Mizzou....would you categorize them as "really crappy" if you were being honest?

absolutely

[steve dave]

Waters is crazy accurate guys, he doesn't get rattled when pressure comes either. Nice pocket presence and can usually elude pressure.

what in the eff

How many sacks has he taken? Even with the shitty O-Line play in the first game. Two bad throws that resulted in picks, but he's completing 72% of his passes and has almost 600 yards through the air in the first two games

_FAN, read this and tell me you don't see Will Spradling. You can't do it.

[MixBerryCrunch]

I'm fairly positive the only reason Waters is starting is because he can consistently hit Thompson and Lockett. Sams is great and should be used but I'm not sure he would be able to get Lockett and TT the ball enough as the starter and they are two of our top three play makers.

[steve dave]

I'm fairly positive the only reason Waters is starting is because he can consistently hit Thompson and Lockett. Sams is great and should be used but I'm not sure he would be able to get Lockett and TT the ball enough as the starter and they are two of our top three play makers.

did you hear Kevin Lockett on the radio begging for Sams to start?

[ChiComCat]

Waters isn't terrible, but he is averaging 2 turnovers a game, cannot convert on 3rd and short, and struggles in the red zone.  All of those things are big issues.

we don't convert on 3rd and short, because Bill insists on running Waters in obvious rushing situations, and then does even stipuder things such the read option end around on 4th and 1.

Waters has thrown 2 picks, one yesterday was off the face of a receiver, hardly Water's fault, the other was a dub move tossing into triple coverage.   Against NDSU he had 1 dumb pick, then another desperation pick where IIRC he appeared to be trying to throw it away at the end of the game to stop the clock.

I'd have to see a list of the plays, but in the red zone we often shrivel up and try to run, again, not Waters' strong suit.    Waters is a decent QB when called upon to do the things he does well.   It is on the coaching staff to use Waters AND Sams to the best of their abilities.

Waters threw 333 attempts at IWU, with only 3 picks.    Give him some time, and I think he will settle in.   I like the double-edged attack, but would like to see Sams used me like Belldozer in situational rushing in addition to leading some drives now and then.

Red zone and 3rd and short are where running the ball is key.  If Waters wants to be in the game, he needs to be more effective than he is.  I don't care who's fault it is (O-Line, Waters, play call), the fact is that Sams gets it done and Waters can't.  What is your solution on 3rd and 1 with Waters?  Hubert is ineffective with Waters in.  Do you want to pass it a lot on 3rd and short?

I also don't care whose fault the interceptions are.  They are the result of running a pass centered offense and they are happening.  Sams wouldn't be putting the ball at risk as much if he were in the game. 

Also, Sagarin rankings in week 2 are a joke

[Stevesie60]

Some of you dorks need to rewatch the Oklahoma State game from last year. Sams can throw just fine.

[steve dave]

Some of you dorks need to rewatch the Oklahoma State game from last year. Sams can throw just fine.

yep

[OK_Cat]

I haven't read a single post in this thread, but Waters is a poor man's Landry Jones. Pretty accurate, but any sign of pressure and he acts like a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).

Sams literally shits gold

[Trim]

I wish DJDT had been right for once and OBz had spent all his non-recruiting efforts (lol) on planning how to whip ass in a 3-year swan song with his prototype quarterback, DSams.

Now, I just hope Waters gets arrested for something scandalous at rusty's outback or something.

[Trim]

sams is def more lovable.  tapping that male cheerleader on the shoulder

When was this?

[kim carnes]

sams is def more lovable.  tapping that male cheerleader on the shoulder

When was this?

it was one of his first runs in the first half.  it was more of a pat than a tap.

[kso_FAN]

Waters is crazy accurate guys, he doesn't get rattled when pressure comes either. Nice pocket presence and can usually elude pressure.

what in the eff

How many sacks has he taken? Even with the shitty O-Line play in the first game. Two bad throws that resulted in picks, but he's completing 72% of his passes and has almost 600 yards through the air in the first two games

_FAN, read this and tell me you don't see Will Spradling. You can't do it.

I think its a reach to make that comparison at this point. I think Waters is a pretty skilled guy, but he may not give K-State the best chance to win.

Its fun to think there is some Snyder conspiracy that he was "saving" Sams for later and started Waters as some sort of decoy, but I don't think that's the case at all. Snyder/Dimel/Miller thought he was the best option and he won the job, perhaps in part because Sams was hurt for part of the fall. But probably because long term they thought he was the best option; not just to beat teams like NDSU and Louisiana, but to beat Oklahoma State, Baylor, Oklahoma, etc. Its more than fair to say that the first two games bring serious questions to that rationale. There was likely an assumption that with our offensive line we would be able to open holes to run the ball without a serious QB run threat that Waters skill set would open up the offense more than Sams and abilities. Clearly, that has not been true to this point.

Now all of those thoughts will have to be evaluated seriously. I knew after Sams came in and led the offense (easily) to the last score, the QB controversy would ramp up even more than it already was, and this is likely something Snyder wanted to avoid when he named the starters. Now its up to him and his staff (and the large amount of money that they make) to make the right decisions to put this team into position to have a successful season. The choice they make at QB (not only who the starter is, but how they use them if they are going to play both) will play a large part in how successful the rest of the season is.

[steve dave]

Yeah, half of those turnovers weren't his fault because the rest of the team sucked and frank was playing him out of position.

[felix rex]

Hustle

[Rams]

I mean, you can continue to make up whatever attributes you want to see in him but he's played 95% of the snaps on offense against a 1-AA team and an 0-2 Sunbelt (?) team and has a 1:2 TD:Int ratio and a 1-1 record.

I'm certainly no waters apologist but the interception:td ratio talking point is pretty dumb at this point. one of his int's this week bounced right off of the receiver's chest and he had a great throw for a td that went right through his receiver's hands. also Sams is stealing some snaps inside the 30. you don't have to break down waters to build up Sams. waters seems to be a good (not great) big12 passing qb who has been limited by play calling that's been questionable at best. I want to see more Sams (would rather him start and get more than half the snaps) as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean we have to crap on waters. it's not his fault Snyder (or whichever dumbfuck was calling the game last week) tried to run him like klein.

[Trim]

Yeah, half of those turnovers weren't his fault because the rest of the team sucked and frank was playing him out of position.

[Trim]

sams is def more lovable.  tapping that male cheerleader on the shoulder

When was this?

it was one of his first runs in the first half.  it was more of a pat than a tap.

Just watched those and didn't see it.  Anyone?

http://www.kstatesports.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2013-2014/sept7.html

[Trim]

On how he [OBz] used the two quarterback system…

“There was a plan in place, but like everything else, you have a plan and all of a sudden the plan goes awry and you veer off of it. That was reasonably close to what we wanted to do, but we did not do it as consistently as we initially thought we would.”

http://www.kstatesports.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/090813aaa.html

[MakeItRain]

I thought Waters and Sams played pretty well tonight, maybe I'm some kind of dumbass  The offense can't make our defense suck less, guys.

The hell it can't. This is the last thing I expect a kstate fan to say. Were you in a coma the previous 2 seasons?

[MakeItRain]

I get people wanting Sams to start. I don't get the coaching staff making Waters the football version of Sprads.

[kim carnes]

I mean, you can continue to make up whatever attributes you want to see in him but he's played 95% of the snaps on offense against a 1-AA team and an 0-2 Sunbelt (?) team and has a 1:2 TD:Int ratio and a 1-1 record.

I'm certainly no waters apologist but the interception:td ratio talking point is pretty dumb at this point. one of his int's this week bounced right off of the receiver's chest and he had a great throw for a td that went right through his receiver's hands. also Sams is stealing some snaps inside the 30. you don't have to break down waters to build up Sams. waters seems to be a good (not great) big12 passing qb who has been limited by play calling that's been questionable at best. I want to see more Sams (would rather him start and get more than half the snaps) as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean we have to crap on waters. it's not his fault Snyder (or whichever dumbfuck was calling the game last week) tried to run him like klein.

yeah, people should stop using stats from actual games to trash waters

[michigancat]

Yeah, half of those turnovers weren't his fault because the rest of the team sucked and frank was playing him out of position.

I mean, you can continue to make up whatever attributes you want to see in him but he's played 95% of the snaps on offense against a 1-AA team and an 0-2 Sunbelt (?) team and has a 1:2 TD:Int ratio and a 1-1 record.

I'm certainly no waters apologist but the interception:td ratio talking point is pretty dumb at this point. one of his int's this week bounced right off of the receiver's chest and he had a great throw for a td that went right through his receiver's hands. also Sams is stealing some snaps inside the 30. you don't have to break down waters to build up Sams. waters seems to be a good (not great) big12 passing qb who has been limited by play calling that's been questionable at best. I want to see more Sams (would rather him start and get more than half the snaps) as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean we have to crap on waters. it's not his fault Snyder (or whichever dumbfuck was calling the game last week) tried to run him like klein.

lol

[MakeItRain]

I get people wanting Sams to start. I don't get making Waters the football version of Sprads.

goEMAW's gonna goEMAW

You are a really good poster, but a rough ridin' moron when pull the rams is morally and intellectually superior to everyone else bullshit. Blow it out of your ass.

[PowercatPat]

Some of you dorks need to rewatch the Oklahoma State game from last year. Sams can throw just fine.

This is such a dumb post. He threw 6 rough ridin' passes and all were simple, short passes. How can you conclude from a half of football and 6 total passes that he can throw?

Plus, there's a reason Waters came in on 3 and 14 at the end of the game. It's because Sams can't throw.

 

[MakeItRain]

Waters isn't terrible, but he is averaging 2 turnovers a game, cannot convert on 3rd and short, and struggles in the red zone.  All of those things are big issues.

One of those turnovers was on a hail mary and the other was Miller being a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and not being able to catch a simple screen pass. His other two INT's were bad though.

It wasn't a hail mary bad person. I'm so sick of people dismissing that 2nd int last week. He had 30 seconds to move 50 yards and threw a pick on the first damn play, completely inexcusable