where did the "right" lose its way?

[MakeItRain]

Again, it's laughable to me when I think back to 2008 and all the Obamabots out there who actually believed there was going to be a paradigm shift in terms of the perpetual war that this country was engaged in . . . but that goes back to Obama being the greatest bait and switch/carrot and stick President in modern Presidential history.

This is revisionist, strawman bullshit.  Goddamn man you typing it in every thread doesn't make it true.

[sonofdaxjones]

Not in the least, the fake peace movement pretty much dryed up after the 2008 election . . . the fake cry about theh Patriot Act etc. etc. amongst the majority of mainstream libs all but disappeared after the 2008 elections.

It's not revisionist history in the least, you're just pissed off about the cold hard reality . . . per usual.

[MakeItRain]

Not repealing the Patriot Act and not closing Gitmo are completely different issues than war mongering and you know it.  I'll tell you what I'm pissed about; I'm pissed the Patriot Act wasn't repealed, I'm pissed Gitmo is still open, I'm pissed that in a thread decrying partisan rhetoric that has no basis in the truth you fell into the same stupid game again.  This isn't the Sean Hannity show, you'll get no one slapping you on the back because you're willing to lie.

What I'm not mad about is the war in Iraq is and has been very over.  I'm not mad that we're still in Afghanistan.  Barack Obama did exactly what he was going to do when he was a candidate in the primaries 5 years ago.  If he's such a war monger, why do we keep hearing that he isn't doing enough in Libya, not doing enough in Syria, not doing enough to protect Israel?  You can't have it both ways, just be honest and give the guy credit for his foreign policy, its been very good and he has restored the image of the country worldwide.

[sonofdaxjones]

What a load of bullshit . . . and you don't speak for everybody . . . and WTF does Sean Hannity have to do with this?  Nothing!   I couldn't tell you the first thing that dumbass is saying.

The War in Iraq is not over, JSOC troops are being sent back right now to help secure border because of the issues created by this administration and their executive orders in Syria.   State has their own goon army in Iraq, and the whole country still teeters on civil war that the U.S. will have to be engaged in otherwise it will end up fully aligning with Iran.   You're just living a lie on that issue MIR.

You're happy that the U.S. is in Afghanistan because a democratic president said that's what he wanted to do . . . in addition this administration is engaged in an illegal state sanctioned assignation campaign that they justify with the shallowest of "reasons" that may as well have been written by the Bush administration (and if it were still the Bush administration, huge swaths of the liberal base would be marching on the streets, now the majority of people in that group just don't care).    The lies run so deep that the administration claims there are very few civilian deaths from their drone wars because they classify nearly every male in the target area as a "suspected terrorist".   

That's just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.   Destablization of Pakistan, using Al Queda proxies to overthrow the Libyan government, Drones creating more terrorists not fewer in Yemen and on, and on, and on.   

Just Say NO to Perpetual War . . . unless a Democrat is President.

[MakeItRain]

I wanted a war in Afghanistan because we needed to find Osama, cripple terrorist groups, and stabilize the region.  I don't care who the president was.  Did you really forget that it was a republican that started that war?  My opposition to the Iraq war is that the premise of starting it was bullshit.  Also having troops in the Iraq to stabilize the area does not equal war no matter how many times you type it.  Are we at war in Korea too?

[sonofdaxjones]

They aren't blowing up IED's and Cars at military bases with extreme regularity in Korea, or Germany or many other places the U.S. has troops.

Troops are being sent back to Iraq because of the tenious hold the government has on the country and by the direct result of the purposeful destablization of Syria by the U.S./NATO.   

Afghanistan serves as a base for destablizing Pakistan . . . and my of the so called terrorists in the regions have had historical ties to Western Intelligence.

I'd also note that Obama's election stalls the talk show hand wringing tour regarding "blow back" for 4 more years (minimum). 

[felix rex]

With my circumstances, I've seen more of Obama's foreign policy in practice than I've heard in his rhetoric. Maybe I wouldn't like the rhetoric ? But I'm okay with the practice.

Speak softly or speak fancy, the dude carries a big stick and is pretty cold-blooded. That's why he's more popular in national security circles than pretty much any other democratic leader (<--all anecdotal so don't bother responding with links or polls or whatever).

[felix rex]

In fact, I think it's probably the same cold pragmatism that turned off some early supporters that I like.

[michigancat]

It would be kind of funny to have a thread of nothing but dax's "obama is a war-monger" posts.

[MixBerryCrunch]

This was a great thread and I'm sad I missed it as it was happening.  People were being real without rhetoric, well until John Doug posted.  I consider myself a liberal, a far left liberal but it is refreshing to see true moderates have an intelligent discussion.

I think people like me who consider themselves liberals are wholly social liberals and will flex a bit on fiscal issues.  The problem with the republican party, as most of you pointed out, have made it an issue to trample all over the social issues.  If they stayed true to the small government rhetoric and stayed out of peoples business they could make some headway.  The polling numbers state that most Americans think that Willard would handle the economy better, but he still got rolled.  You would think that the republican party would get the hint that Americans care more about social issues than they think and stop fighting a losing game.  They need to realize that you can't play the same game in national elections as you can in local elections.

Agree. It's so hard to convince people that Republicans aren't actually as stupid when it comes to economic, fiscal, and foreign relations issues as they are on social issues.  On the other hand it's hard to convince my liberal friends that capital gains are doubly taxed and so that is why Mitt only paid a 16% tax rate on them. It's extremely frustrating when 80% of the country can't see both sides of an argument and make an informative decision for themselves instead of just aligning all of their views with that of their political party.

Capital gains absolutely are not double-taxed. The only thing remotely unfair to people who earn capital gains is that there is a limit to the amount of loss you can claim in a single year.

Taxed as income at the corporate level and then again when passed on to investors. What the eff are you talking about? Have you ever taken a finance class? Not trying to be a dick but they teach that in an intro finance class, so I think it would be fairly common knowledge.

The company I work for gets its profits taxed and then that money gets taxed again when I collect my salary. I guess my income is double-taxed too.

Come on man don't do this. You are not an owner of your company so their money gets taxed once and then they pay you and your money gets taxed once. That is not double taxation. An investor in a company is a partial owner of that company so any profit of that company is partially owned by the investor. When the company shells this money out to the investor in the form of dividends it is taxed again, so essentially the money is doubly taxed....Thank you for proving my point on how hard it is to explain this to my liberal friends. No hard feelings though man.

I hate to spiral even further from a pretty reasonable discussion, but dividends aren't the only capital gains out there.

You are correct, Sir.

[MixBerryCrunch]

The company I work for gets its profits taxed and then that money gets taxed again when I collect my salary. I guess my income is double-taxed too.

they don't pay your salary out of profits.

Yeah, it was a poor example. The idea that your income shouldn't be taxed because you received it from the taxed income of some other entity is pretty ridiculous, though.

It isn't. The profit of a company is owned by the investors. It is their profit and when they divide a portion of it out it is taxed again. Lower capital gains taxes encourages investing and is fairly critical to economic growth.

The investors cannot do anything with the profit of a company until they divide a portion of it to be taxed again. The investors are only taxed on the portion that they take for their own consumptive use, only this money is taxed at a much lower rate than the money almost everybody else earns for their own consumptive use. You cannot honestly think that is fair. Maybe it is good for the economy, but it's not even close to fair.

Taxes are taken out of a companies profit before the earning are passed on to investors as capital gains. Corporations are taxed at a rough average of 35%. Technically that profit belongs to investors, whether or not they can do anything with it is a moot point. When a portion is finally passed on to the investors in the form of capital gains it is taxed again at roughly 16%. That is double taxation by definition, whether you agree or think it's fair is a moot point as well. But, I get the feeling that if you had a retirement plan that relied partially on dividends you might think differently....I won't deter this thread anymore so this is my last post on the topic. No hard feelings.

[felix rex]

It would be kind of funny to have a thread of nothing but dax's "obama is a war-monger" posts.

It would be kind of funny to have a thread of nothing but dax's "obama is a war-monger" posts.

I envision it as white type on a black background, and you scroll horizontally like its a memorial wall. Also, the white font is just for dates and the posts appear as scribbled notebook pages.

[Rage Against the McKee]

The company I work for gets its profits taxed and then that money gets taxed again when I collect my salary. I guess my income is double-taxed too.

they don't pay your salary out of profits.

Yeah, it was a poor example. The idea that your income shouldn't be taxed because you received it from the taxed income of some other entity is pretty ridiculous, though.

It isn't. The profit of a company is owned by the investors. It is their profit and when they divide a portion of it out it is taxed again. Lower capital gains taxes encourages investing and is fairly critical to economic growth.

The investors cannot do anything with the profit of a company until they divide a portion of it to be taxed again. The investors are only taxed on the portion that they take for their own consumptive use, only this money is taxed at a much lower rate than the money almost everybody else earns for their own consumptive use. You cannot honestly think that is fair. Maybe it is good for the economy, but it's not even close to fair.

Taxes are taken out of a companies profit before the earning are passed on to investors as capital gains. Corporations are taxed at a rough average of 35%. Technically that profit belongs to investors, whether or not they can do anything with it is a moot point. When a portion is finally passed on to the investors in the form of capital gains it is taxed again at roughly 16%. That is double taxation by definition, whether you agree or think it's fair is a moot point as well. But, I get the feeling that if you had a retirement plan that relied partially on dividends you might think differently....I won't deter this thread anymore so this is my last post on the topic. No hard feelings.

I would be willing to bet that roughly zero corporations paid a tax rate of 35% last year.

[MixBerryCrunch]

The company I work for gets its profits taxed and then that money gets taxed again when I collect my salary. I guess my income is double-taxed too.

they don't pay your salary out of profits.

Yeah, it was a poor example. The idea that your income shouldn't be taxed because you received it from the taxed income of some other entity is pretty ridiculous, though.

It isn't. The profit of a company is owned by the investors. It is their profit and when they divide a portion of it out it is taxed again. Lower capital gains taxes encourages investing and is fairly critical to economic growth.

The investors cannot do anything with the profit of a company until they divide a portion of it to be taxed again. The investors are only taxed on the portion that they take for their own consumptive use, only this money is taxed at a much lower rate than the money almost everybody else earns for their own consumptive use. You cannot honestly think that is fair. Maybe it is good for the economy, but it's not even close to fair.

Taxes are taken out of a companies profit before the earning are passed on to investors as capital gains. Corporations are taxed at a rough average of 35%. Technically that profit belongs to investors, whether or not they can do anything with it is a moot point. When a portion is finally passed on to the investors in the form of capital gains it is taxed again at roughly 16%. That is double taxation by definition, whether you agree or think it's fair is a moot point as well. But, I get the feeling that if you had a retirement plan that relied partially on dividends you might think differently....I won't deter this thread anymore so this is my last post on the topic. No hard feelings.

I would be willing to bet that roughly zero corporations paid a tax rate of 35% last year.

And that's where the real argument lies. But upping capital gains taxes won't fix anything. You have to work on closing the tax loopholes that corporations use to duck taxes.

Edit: I know I said my last post on this was really my last, but I couldn't help myself. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

The company I work for gets its profits taxed and then that money gets taxed again when I collect my salary. I guess my income is double-taxed too.

they don't pay your salary out of profits.

Yeah, it was a poor example. The idea that your income shouldn't be taxed because you received it from the taxed income of some other entity is pretty ridiculous, though.

It isn't. The profit of a company is owned by the investors. It is their profit and when they divide a portion of it out it is taxed again. Lower capital gains taxes encourages investing and is fairly critical to economic growth.

The investors cannot do anything with the profit of a company until they divide a portion of it to be taxed again. The investors are only taxed on the portion that they take for their own consumptive use, only this money is taxed at a much lower rate than the money almost everybody else earns for their own consumptive use. You cannot honestly think that is fair. Maybe it is good for the economy, but it's not even close to fair.

Taxes are taken out of a companies profit before the earning are passed on to investors as capital gains. Corporations are taxed at a rough average of 35%. Technically that profit belongs to investors, whether or not they can do anything with it is a moot point. When a portion is finally passed on to the investors in the form of capital gains it is taxed again at roughly 16%. That is double taxation by definition, whether you agree or think it's fair is a moot point as well. But, I get the feeling that if you had a retirement plan that relied partially on dividends you might think differently....I won't deter this thread anymore so this is my last post on the topic. No hard feelings.

I would be willing to bet that roughly zero corporations paid a tax rate of 35% last year.

And that's where the real argument lies. But upping capital gains taxes won't fix anything. You have to work on closing the tax loopholes that corporations use to duck taxes.

Edit: I know I said my last post on this was really my last, but I couldn't help myself. 

I'm not saying you are totally wrong about capital gains being a double tax, but you are either mostly wrong or just disingenuous in your reasoning. First of all, not all investments pay dividends. It is also possible to lose money on a company that is turning profits. There are plenty of tax shelters out there for people who are saving for retirement. I have no problem whatsoever with paying low capital gains taxes on my other investments and really wouldn't have any problem with that money being taxed as ordinary income, because for all intents and purposes, that's what it really is.

[Rams]

the corporate tax rate should be 0

[Rage Against the McKee]

the corporate tax rate should be 0

For a lot of corporations, it is.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/11/03/360185/30-corporations-no-taxes/

[Rams]

the corporate tax rate should be 0

For a lot of corporations, it is.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/11/03/360185/30-corporations-no-taxes/

taxing corporations in any capacity is stupid and wasteful

[sys]

the corporate tax rate should be 0

true.

[0.42]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/how-conservative-media-lost-to-the-msm-and-failed-the-rank-and-file/264855/

Pretty good deconstruction of the FOX/conservative echo chamber and how it's actively hurting Republican strategy.

[8manpick]

http://dcpierson.tumblr.com/post/35030817854/dear-young-conservative

And if you agree that women should have control over their own bodies and gay people should be able to marry, yet you begrudgingly accept that your party must appeal to people who virulently despise the notion of reproductive freedom and gay marriage in order to get them to vote for their economic policies, that is condescending nihilism, pure and simple, and I don’t understand how you walk around with that leaden hypocrisy in your chest all day.

Excerpt from an interesting, albeit long, read.  The writer makes some good points, others not so good, but I think this fits the thread title well.

[sys]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/how-conservative-media-lost-to-the-msm-and-failed-the-rank-and-file/264855/

Pretty good deconstruction of the FOX/conservative echo chamber and how it's actively hurting Republican strategy.

that's a great article.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/how-conservative-media-lost-to-the-msm-and-failed-the-rank-and-file/264855/

Pretty good deconstruction of the FOX/conservative echo chamber and how it's actively hurting Republican strategy.

We need to realize that Fox news was born out of the ashes that once were unbiased network news organizations. You could easily replace any mention of Fox with NBC and still have an accurate article. True unbiased news and investigative reporting are dead. Information is now relative to the reporters point of view.

[steve dave]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/how-conservative-media-lost-to-the-msm-and-failed-the-rank-and-file/264855/

Pretty good deconstruction of the FOX/conservative echo chamber and how it's actively hurting Republican strategy.

We need to realize that Fox news was born out of the ashes that once were unbiased network news organizations. You could easily replace any mention of Fox with NBC and still have an accurate article. True unbiased news and investigative reporting are dead. Information is now relative to the reporters point of view.

NBC hasn't hurt the left

[Panjandrum]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/how-conservative-media-lost-to-the-msm-and-failed-the-rank-and-file/264855/

Pretty good deconstruction of the FOX/conservative echo chamber and how it's actively hurting Republican strategy.

We need to realize that Fox news was born out of the ashes that once were unbiased network news organizations. You could easily replace any mention of Fox with NBC and still have an accurate article. True unbiased news and investigative reporting are dead. Information is now relative to the reporters point of view.

NBC hasn't hurt the left

(ms)NBC hasn't hurt the left because all they do is make fun of Fox News.  I'm not sure they actually shape any narratives.

Fox News creates the narratives.  msNBC just makes fun of, and shoots holes in, Fox.

That's my perception, anyway.  Hence why I only watch CNN.