Frank and his coaching performance this year

[michigancat]

We've won 2 games we shouldn't have.  We've lost 3-5 games we shouldn't have.  OUx2, BU, @ISU(?), @UT(?). 

That's a bit of a stretch.

But you're right - can't argue with 11-7 (or even 10-8) which is my overall point.

[Panjandrum]

Also, put Frank in Austin, and over time, he wins as much, if not more, than Barnes.

I wouldn't be so sure about that one. There is a much better history of success in basketball at K-State than at Texas. Barnes has done an incredible job there.

Yeah, Barnes is a 3 time Big 12 champion and is 12 for 12 on getting into the NCAA tournement.  43% of Texas' NCAA tourny appearences have been with Barnes at the helm.  He has a 72.6 conference win %. 

There were articles out this summer during realignment (I'm too lazy to go find them) that talked about how Texas improved in everything after joining the Big 12.  Not just football, but basketball, baseball...everything.

I'm not saying Barnes isn't a good coach.  But it's like Texas started investing in everything over the past 16 years to the point where if you can't win there, you're trying not to.

[felix rex]

This program isn't in a spot where we should be demanding greatness from our coaching staff.  We're competing and going to NCAA tournys.  I'm happy.  But, how many years does it take until tournament appearances are no longer good enough?  How long will it take until top-4 in Conference is no longer good enough?   

In all seriousness, a long-ass time. Who in recent history has fired a coach that was in the NCAA tournament every year with an occasional Elite 8? And who has replaced that coach with someone better?

Assholes like myself need to remember that top 4/tourney is the baseline. So the occasional elite 8 run balanced out with the occasional NIT season is part of that.

It just hurts now that I let myself care again.

But wasn't the last week fun? Caring (a lot) makes wins like Baylor and Missouri even sweeter. If you were just casual hack it would just be "nice" for the watercooler and whatnot.

Oh man. I was still all cynical and fake sarcastic during the Baylor game, convincing everyone (myself? ) that I didn't care.

Then Mizzou game was just awesome. Just indescribable.

[michigancat]

But it's like Texas started investing in everything over the past 16 years to the point where if you can't win there, you're trying not to.

Yeah. Probably the most important thing they've invested in is great coaches.

[Belvis Noland]

We've won 2 games we shouldn't have.  We've lost 3-5 games we shouldn't have.  OUx2, BU, @ISU(?), @UT(?). 

That's a bit of a stretch.

But you're right - can't argue with 11-7 (or even 10-8) which is my overall point.

And my point is that we could be 13-5 (but for some bone headed performanceS), but 9-9 is perfectly fine for everybody.  How long will this be the case?

Over on the football board, the general consensus is that Snyder needs to retire because .500 football and 3* recruits aren't cutting it.  And we're 20 years removed from being the worst football program in America.  In basketball, people are OK with Martin going .500 in conference and getting 3* recruits and we're 20 years removed from being one of the best basketball programs in America.

Strange double standard.   

[kougar24]

Also shouldn't have swept Mizzou or won at Baylor. The net result is positive.

That's a bit of a stretch.  We've won 2 games we shouldn't have.  We've lost 3-5 games we shouldn't have.  OUx2, BU, @ISU(?), @UT(?). 

That said, going 11-7 with this team is pretty f'n impressive.  Should be better next year, too.   

They aren't apples to apples. @BU and @MU especially are games we had far less business winning than we did losing to BU, @UT, and @ISU. You're just clouded by the fact that we had leads in those games and blew them.

[OregonSmock]

If TSC finishes out the regular season strong, I'd say it's both Frank and Bill's best coaching jobs at their respective schools. 

[Dr Rick Daris]

We've won 2 games we shouldn't have.  We've lost 3-5 games we shouldn't have.  OUx2, BU, @ISU(?), @UT(?). 

That's a bit of a stretch.

But you're right - can't argue with 11-7 (or even 10-8) which is my overall point.

And my point is that we could be 13-5 (but for some bone headed performanceS), but 9-9 is perfectly fine for everybody.  How long will this be the case?

Over on the football board, the general consensus is that Snyder needs to retire because .500 football and 3* recruits aren't cutting it.  And we're 20 years removed from being the worst football program in America.  In basketball, people are OK with Martin going .500 in conference and getting 3* recruits and we're 20 years removed from being one of the best basketball programs in America.

Strange double standard.   

in the above, you are comparing bball conference w/l against fball total season w/l which is pretty stupid. most people would be pretty damn happy going .500 in conference every year in fball because you'd add in all the ooc wins and end up averaging 8 wins a season. most would be v happy w/ that. conversely, if bball starts having 14-14 overall records for mulitple years in a row then yeah. people would be pretty unhappy with that.

you're basically comparing apples to gobots and unless the gobot happens to be a robot that turns into an apple by bending it's legs upwards and tucking in it's arm, it's a really bad comparison and not anywhere close to a "strange double standard".

[steve dave]

Love gobots. They should get tgeir own metal movie

[Belvis Noland]

They aren't apples to apples. @BU and @MU especially are games we had far less business winning than we did losing to BU, @UT, and @ISU. You're just clouded by the fact that we had leads in those games and blew them.

That's why I said 3-5 losses.  I think we should have beat OU twice and BU at home.  No question about any of those.  We should have won them.  ISU, UT are games I didn't expect to win but, nonetheless, we should have won.  We gave up double-digit leads in the second half of both games.  We also should have beat a pretty pedestrian WVU team at home (yes Wichita is a home game).

 

[Dr Rick Daris]

Love gobots. They should get tgeir own metal movie

i was always convinced that transformers had the idea first but they took their time developing a quality product and meanwhile the gobot company caught word of the idea and rushed an inferior product into the market to strike while the "iron was hot" in an attempt to "capture the market". i was like 7 at the time. eventually gobots were relegated to only k-mart and now it's twenty five years later and transformers has multiple 100 million dollar grossing hollywood blockbuster movies. quality always wins.

also, frank has never ever finished .500 in conference so how can you say "people are perfectly fine with it" when it's never even happened. riddle me that one jackass.

[Belvis Noland]

Btw, if the standard of success is going to NCAA tournaments, I don't really give a crap if we give away 3-4 "should-have-won" games a year.  As long as we get our 20+ wins, it doesn't really matter.

If we ever get to the point where we want to win a Conference Championship, however, we need to scrutinize some of the boneheaded crap that happens in Conference play every single year.  Every year we stumble and have to pull it together.  Imagine if we eliminated the stumbling part.   

[CNS]

Has any coach of ours won 20+ 5yrs in a row?

[kso_FAN]

Has any coach of ours won 20+ 5yrs in a row?

No, but to be fair, most of those teams in the 50s through 80s played 2-3 fewer scheduled games than we do now.

[Dr Rick Daris]

In basketball, people are OK with Martin going .500 in conference and getting 3* recruits and we're 20 years removed from being one of the best basketball programs in America.

Strange double standard.   

also, and not to nitpick your unbelievably stupid post to death here...but kstate is nowhere close to being 20 years removed from being one of the best basketball programs in america. i guess kstate did go to an elite 8 in 1986 but that was 26 years ago and is no better than what frank did two years ago. it was also sandwiched by worse seasons, so that makes it even dumber if possible.

[kso_FAN]

In basketball, people are OK with Martin going .500 in conference and getting 3* recruits and we're 20 years removed from being one of the best basketball programs in America.

Strange double standard.   

also, and not to nitpick your unbelievably stupid post to death here...but kstate is nowhere close to being 20 years removed from being one of the best basketball programs in america. i guess kstate did go to an elite 8 in 1986 but that was 26 years ago and is no better than what frank did two years ago. it was also sandwiched by worse seasons, so that makes it even dumber if possible.

Also, Frank is not Bill. And Bill is not Frank. Personality makes a difference.

[Belvis Noland]

Has any coach of ours won 20+ 5yrs in a row?

That's not really a very good argument.  

Again, if 20 win seasons are the standard of success, Martin is quickly becoming John Wooden.  I don't know how many 20+ win seasons Tex Winter had, but I know he won 8 Titles in 15 seasons.    

If a Conference Championship is the standard of success, I think Martin needs to reevaluate his early season coaching style.  If we're aiming for 20 wins a season, I think he's exceeding expectations.    

We hear every announcer during every game say "Frank Martin coached teams are always ready to play in March."  Well, what about January?  Why aren't we ready to play?  

[CNS]

20 win seasons show a high level of sustained success. sure he doesn't have a title, but someone doing nothing less than 20 wins is someone you would bet on winning a title or two eventually.  Who else in our conf even does this? 

[kso_FAN]

Has any coach of ours won 20+ 5yrs in a row?

That's not really a very good argument. 

Again, if 20 win seasons are the standard of success, Martin is quickly becoming John Wooden.  I don't know how many 20+ win seasons Tex Winter had, but I know he won 8 Titles in 15 seasons.     

If a Conference Championship is the standard of success, I think Martin needs to reevaluate his early season coaching style.  If we're aiming for 20 wins a season, I think he's exceeding expectations.   

We hear every announcer during every game say "Frank Martin coached teams are always ready to play in March."  Well, what about January?  Why aren't we ready to play? 

Its been discussed plenty on this board and is the most common complaint; recruiting and turnover on the roster.

[michigancat]

We've won 2 games we shouldn't have.  We've lost 3-5 games we shouldn't have.  OUx2, BU, @ISU(?), @UT(?).  

That's a bit of a stretch.

But you're right - can't argue with 11-7 (or even 10-8) which is my overall point.

And my point is that we could be 13-5 (but for some bone headed performanceS), but 9-9 is perfectly fine for everybody.  How long will this be the case?

Over on the football board, the general consensus is that Snyder needs to retire because .500 football and 3* recruits aren't cutting it.  And we're 20 years removed from being the worst football program in America.  In basketball, people are OK with Martin going .500 in conference and getting 3* recruits and we're 20 years removed from being one of the best basketball programs in America.

Strange double standard.    

LHC Bill Snyder had 4 seasons in a row of .500 or worse before this season. His conference winning percentage over those 4 seasons was 36%. And this season was enough for me to say I was wrong, and as far as I can tell, no one is calling for Bill to retire any time soon.

Frank Martin's conference record is 61%.

I mean, it's not just a bad argument - you're just making crap up now.

[michigancat]

Also, Bill's career conference record is 58% (this includes the DoD). Frank's is 61%. Food for thought.

[mcmwcat]

If TSC finishes out the regular season strong, I'd say it's both Frank and Bill's best coaching jobs at their respective schools. 

08-09 KU was really young and went 14-2 and won the conference.  like this year they struggled a bit in the non con: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Kansas_Jayhawks_men%27s_basketball_team

03-04 his first year at KU, Self went to the elite eight with none of his players and finished 2nd in the league.  the roster was pretty weak by his standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003%E2%80%9304_Kansas_Jayhawks_men%27s_basketball_team

compare the talent and experience of those 2 teams with this year's team and this year's team should be better.  self has done so many good coaching jobs but i think this year the his talent is underrated.

[mcmwcat]

if Frank won the conference then proceeded to post a .333 record in conference the next 4 seasons i doubt he'd be retained.  i also doubt there would be many supporters left here.

[wetwillie]

I could give two fucks about conference championships, I want tourney wins.

[OregonSmock]

If TSC finishes out the regular season strong, I'd say it's both Frank and Bill's best coaching jobs at their respective schools.  

08-09 KU was really young and went 14-2 and won the conference.  like this year they struggled a bit in the non con: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Kansas_Jayhawks_men%27s_basketball_team

03-04 his first year at KU, Self went to the elite eight with none of his players and finished 2nd in the league.  the roster was pretty weak by his standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003%E2%80%9304_Kansas_Jayhawks_men%27s_basketball_team

compare the talent and experience of those 2 teams with this year's team and this year's team should be better.  self has done so many good coaching jobs but i think this year the his talent is underrated.

I don't know.  This team has the least amount of depth of any team Self has had since he's been at KU.  We returned one starter from last season (Tyshawn).  The '09 team featured Collins and Aldrich (two McD AA's), along with the Morris twins and several other highly rated players.  This year it's basically Tyshawn and T-Rob, with a pretty solid trio rounding out the starting five.  That's basically it.