Frank and his coaching performance this year

[OregonSmock]

I could give two fucks about conference championships, I want tourney wins.

I don't think they hand out trophies for getting to the Sweet Sixteen. 

[steve dave]

I could give two fucks about conference championships, I want tourney wins.

I don't think they hand out trophies for getting to the Sweet Sixteen. 

beems, leave the TSC to the pros. tia

[mcmwcat]

If TSC finishes out the regular season strong, I'd say it's both Frank and Bill's best coaching jobs at their respective schools. 

08-09 KU was really young and went 14-2 and won the conference.  like this year they struggled a bit in the non con: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Kansas_Jayhawks_men%27s_basketball_team

03-04 his first year at KU, Self went to the elite eight with none of his players and finished 2nd in the league.  the roster was pretty weak by his standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003%E2%80%9304_Kansas_Jayhawks_men%27s_basketball_team

compare the talent and experience of those 2 teams with this year's team and this year's team should be better.  self has done so many good coaching jobs but i think this year the his talent is underrated.

I don't know.  This team has the least amount of depth of any team Self has had since he's been at KU.  We returned one starter from last season (Tyshawn).  The '09 team featured Collins and Aldrich (two McD AA's), along with the Morris twins and several other highly rated players.  This year it's basically Tyshawn and T-Rob, with a pretty solid trio rounding out the starting five.  That's basically it. 

depth doesn't seem to be a requirement for winning.  you're making the case for Frank Haith as coach of the year and nobody wants that

[Belvis Noland]

Its been discussed plenty on this board and is the most common complaint; recruiting and turnover on the roster.

I also think that Frank's in-game teaching lessons account for a few losses each season.  The Angel experiment during the Baylor game is a decent example.  Cost us a game, but was an invaluable experience for Angel. Completely serious.  Victor Ojeleye nearly costs us the game every time he approaches the scorers table. 

Tactics aren't conducive to conference titles - when you need a near flawless conference record. 

[mcmwcat]

Its been discussed plenty on this board and is the most common complaint; recruiting and turnover on the roster.

I also think that Frank's in-game teaching lessons account for a few losses each season.  The Angel experiment during the Baylor game is a decent example.  Cost us a game, but was an invaluable experience for Angel. Completely serious.  Victor Ojeleye nearly costs us the game every time he approaches the scorers table. 

Tactics aren't conducive to conference titles - when you need a near flawless conference record. 

experiment?  it's obvious that Angel is our best option at the point.

[kso_FAN]

Its been discussed plenty on this board and is the most common complaint; recruiting and turnover on the roster.

I also think that Frank's in-game teaching lessons account for a few losses each season.  The Angel experiment during the Baylor game is a decent example.  Cost us a game, but was an invaluable experience for Angel. Completely serious.  Victor Ojeleye nearly costs us the game every time he approaches the scorers table.  

Tactics aren't conducive to conference titles - when you need a near flawless conference record.  

Perhaps, but the tactics are necessary (at least I think they are for Frank) when you don't have multiple 4/5 star level players on your roster. Given his level of recruiting I think you have to expect Frank's ways to continue, I don't think he's going to change.

And if he continues to be a consistent upper division conference coach who continually gets Frankruary to happen I'm good.

[Belvis Noland]

experiment?  it's obvious that Angel is our best option at the point.

He is now.  But, he wasn't at the time.  And that's my point.  He was a Freshman guard with no experience and little confidence.  But. Frank knew that he needed to throw him into the fire so that he'd be ready to play by March.  Let's not forget that Angel played about 10 minutes in that game and had 4-5 turnovers.  From a wins/loss perspective, having him on the floor was completely insane.  From a learning perspective, it was the best thing Frank could have done. 

But, KSU_Fan is right, we don't have the talent pool that other schools have.  So, Frank's hand is forced at times. 

 

[Belvis Noland]

And if he continues to be a consistent upper division conference coach who continually gets Frankruary to happen I'm good.

And I agree.  for now. 

That's been my point through this entire thread.  Right now, being in the top half of the Conference is fine.  I just don't know how long this will satisfy the fan base. 

[mcmwcat]

so we agree it wasn't an experiment

[steve dave]

And if he continues to be a consistent upper division conference coach who continually gets Frankruary to happen I'm good.

And I agree.  for now. 

That's been my point through this entire thread.  Right now, being in the top half of the Conference is fine.  I just don't know how long this will satisfy the fan base. 

How long will that satisfy you?  It will satisfy me forever but I'm just one man.  one extremely intelligent man with an excellent sense of perspective.

[Belvis Noland]

so we agree it wasn't an experiment

Uh, no. 

threw an inexperienced player into uncharted waters.  experiment.  lost the game, but player learned valuable lesson.  experiment worked. 

[Belvis Noland]

How long will that satisfy you?  It will satisfy me forever but I'm just one man.  one extremely intelligent man with an excellent sense of perspective.

Depends.  This team will probably be '12-'13 preseason top-20 and picked to finish top 1-2 in Conference.  Very similar to '10-'11 JYCs. 

If we crap the bed midseason like we did in '10-'11, get swept by TCU and finish 4th in the Conference, I'll be dissapointed.  Even if we win 20 games and go to the Tourny.  I think our returning team is too good to finish 4th next season (barring injuries). 

I mean, why finish 4th or 5th when 1st is available. 

[kso_FAN]

Uh, no.  

threw an inexperienced player into uncharted waters.  experiment.  lost the game, but player learned valuable lesson.  experiment worked.  

Not exactly uncharted, Angel played a lot down the stretch and in both OTs against WVU.

[Belvis Noland]

Not exactly uncharted, Angel played a lot down the stretch and in both OTs against WVU.

Well, he played 10 minutes in the Baylor game.  Including the last 5 minutes when he had 4-5 turnovers.  I think you've said you coached basketball.  Why would you have a freshman with 4-5 turnovers in 10 minutes of basketball handling the ball in crunch time?   

[steve dave]

Not exactly uncharted, Angel played a lot down the stretch and in both OTs against WVU.

Well, he played 10 minutes in the Baylor game.  Including the last 5 minutes when he had 4-5 turnovers.  I think you've said you coached basketball.  Why would you have a freshman with 4-5 turnovers in 10 minutes of basketball handling the ball in crunch time?   

because he's by far our best ball handler would be my guess but I'm not a basketball coach

[felix rex]

Its been discussed plenty on this board and is the most common complaint; recruiting and turnover on the roster.

I also think that Frank's in-game teaching lessons account for a few losses each season.  The Angel experiment during the Baylor game is a decent example.  Cost us a game, but was an invaluable experience for Angel. Completely serious.  Victor Ojeleye nearly costs us the game every time he approaches the scorers table.  

Tactics aren't conducive to conference titles - when you need a near flawless conference record.  

Perhaps, but the tactics are necessary (at least I think they are for Frank) when you don't have multiple 4/5 star level players on your roster. Given his level of recruiting I think you have to expect Frank's ways to continue, I don't think he's going to change.

And if he continues to be a consistent upper division conference coach who continually gets Frankruary to happen I'm good.

I'm good with that, too. I'll continue to freak the eff out every January, but I'll be good by Frankuary. In fact, I quite look forward to being super arrogant about "meaningless" January losses in the future.

[Belvis Noland]

because he's by far our best ball handler would be my guess but I'm not a basketball coach

He turned the ball over 5 times in 10 minutes.  Didn't handle the ball very well in that game.  

Call me crazy.  Maybe I have Spradling in-bound that last pass from the baseline.  

[ChiComCat]

How long will that satisfy you?  It will satisfy me forever but I'm just one man.  one extremely intelligent man with an excellent sense of perspective.

Depends.  This team will probably be '12-'13 preseason top-20 and picked to finish top 1-2 in Conference.  Very similar to '10-'11 JYCs.  

If we crap the bed midseason like we did in '10-'11, get swept by TCU and finish 4th in the Conference, I'll be dissapointed.  Even if we win 20 games and go to the Tourny.  I think our returning team is too good to finish 4th next season (barring injuries).  

I mean, why finish 4th or 5th when 1st is available.  

1st hasn't been available for some 8 years now

[steve dave]

because he's by far our best ball handler would be my guess but I'm not a basketball coach

He turned the ball over 5 times in 10 minutes.  Didn't handle the ball very well in that game.  

Call me crazy.  Maybe I have Spradling in-bound that last pass from the baseline.  

He's still by far our best ball handler and I want the ball in his hands every time.  Using the powers of hindsight I could probably coach us to a victory in every one of our games.  

[kso_FAN]

Not exactly uncharted, Angel played a lot down the stretch and in both OTs against WVU.

Well, he played 10 minutes in the Baylor game.  Including the last 5 minutes when he had 4-5 turnovers.  I think you've said you coached basketball.  Why would you have a freshman with 4-5 turnovers in 10 minutes of basketball handling the ball in crunch time?    

Because Frank became convinced that our best chance to win (short term and long term) was to have Angel in the game and that he would have to live with the possibility that he would make mistakes.  I don't disagree with this.

You do realize that Frank inserted Angel into that game about the 7:00 minute mark with the Cats down 62-60. By the 4 minute mark the Cats were up 71-67. It was only then that we fouled and then Angel had the back to back TOs to go down by 2.

[Belvis Noland]

1st hasn't been available for some 8 years now

Because they don't lose stupid games in January.  

[Belvis Noland]

He's still by far our best ball handler and I want the ball in his hands every time.  Using the powers of hindsight I could probably coach us to a victory in every one of our games.  

Was he by far our best ball handler in early January???  Or is that statement a product of your power of hindsight? 

rhetorical question.

[steve dave]

He's still by far our best ball handler and I want the ball in his hands every time.  Using the powers of hindsight I could probably coach us to a victory in every one of our games.  

Was he by far our best ball handler in early January???  Or is that statement a product of your power of hindsight?  

rhetorical question.

Yes, he was.  no matter how many question marks you use, he still was.

[kso_FAN]

Also, there is this:

"We've got to do some things sometimes early in the year that I don't want to do to make sure we create the mindset to be rock solid at this time of the year," Martin said. "No rhyme or reason, its just the way I've done it for 16 years in high school and the five years I've been the head coach here. So, for 21 years of my career that's how I've done it and usually at this time of year our teams are pretty good."

[Rage Against the McKee]

He's still by far our best ball handler and I want the ball in his hands every time.  Using the powers of hindsight I could probably coach us to a victory in every one of our games.  

Was he by far our best ball handler in early January???  Or is that statement a product of your power of hindsight? 

rhetorical question.

Did you watch the Diamondhead Classic? Angel was clearly the best ball handler. His decision making left something to be desired and still does, but I still want the ball in his hands in a close game.