travel thread

[Mikeyis4dcats]

this doctor paid money and signed off on the terms of service the airlines made available, then refused to honor the terms of service in the contract that said he would have to wait and accept whatever the airline deemed fair compensation. he refused and so the airline brought in the state to violently enforce the contract. not sure why anyone is surprised or outraged.

let dlew lend a rhetorical flourish with legal precedent about why if you try to assert any sort of inherent human right to dignity in the face of a corporation's terms of service you will be made to bend the knee, violently. just the system asserting its power to keep things running efficiently.

Once he was boarded, it is no longer a case of involuntary denied boarding and became refusal to transport.   Apparently that means United's action was illegal, as there was not any reason to refuse transport.  He's gonna get paid.

I don't know much about airplane rules, but I think the captain or pilot can tell anyone on board to amscray.

that is not true.  Here is an article explaining the requirements they must meet to deny transport or boarding.   Having an employee who needs a seat is not among them.

https://papersplease.org/wp/2012/08/24/does-an-airline-pilot-have-the-right-to-refuse-to-let-you-fly/

read the whole article

I did...

To sum up, a pilot or airline would have the authority to deny transportation to a lawful resident holding a valid ticket if and only if:

    The pilot genuinely believes that refusal to transport this person is necessary for “safety”;
    The airline genuinely believes that the person is or might be “inimical to safety”;
    The refusal of transportation is authorized by valid regulations, in the promulgation of which “the public right of freedom of transit” was considered by the rulemaking authority (so far as we can tell, there are no such regulations);
    The refusal to transport does not violate anyone’s First Amendment right to assemble; and
    Neither the refusal to transport, the laws and regulations purporting to authorize it, nor the manner in which those laws and regulations are carried out violate Article 12 of the ICCPR.

[Dr Rick Daris]

i mean holy crap. they picked the worst person on the plane to pull this crap on.

https://twitter.com/ChrisSpags/status/851814105057038337

I knew there would be an interesting wrinkle to this story and here it is. 

[Kat Kid]

You could be right.  I honestly don't know.  If United was legally wrong then they should be smacked for it - both PR-wise and whatever they might pay for a fat settlement or in damages. 

If they were legally right, then I don't have a problem with them removing the guy.

Obviously irrelevant to the outcome of this (though it may explain his bizarre behavior), but our Good Doctor apparently has a history of trading painkillers for sex, which is a fun little wrinkle to this story.

holy crap! does law school graduation ceremony include some sort of blood sacrifice to the god of statutes?

[DQ12]

You could be right.  I honestly don't know.  If United was legally wrong then they should be smacked for it - both PR-wise and whatever they might pay for a fat settlement or in damages. 

If they were legally right, then I don't have a problem with them removing the guy.

Obviously irrelevant to the outcome of this (though it may explain his bizarre behavior), but our Good Doctor apparently has a history of trading painkillers for sex, which is a fun little wrinkle to this story.

holy crap! does law school graduation ceremony include some sort of blood sacrifice to the god of statutes?

If a party doesn't violate the law then I have a hard time faulting them.  Maybe the law should be changed, but I invoke the black letter legal doctrine of don't hate the player hate the game at that point.

[Mrs. Gooch]

So, the employees had to go sit in the vacated seats amongst all the angry passengers?

[Trim]

The employees that needed to fly to get to another airport so that they'd be able to staff a flight from that airport - what exactly was the time/distance situation there?  I haven't read anything.

If there was any alternative way they could've been transported, even if expensive, United should've figured out pretty quick that would've been the better move.  Even before they mumped w/Doctor Drug-for-sex, they still had a full plane of customers getting pissed that their flight hadn't left b/c United had mumped up their staffing logistics.  Keep your customer-filled plane moving and buy $3000 first-class tickets on Delta or whatever for your staff to get to the next destination.

[DQ12]

The employees that needed to fly to get to another airport so that they'd be able to staff a flight from that airport - what exactly was the time/distance situation there?  I haven't read anything.

If there was any alternative way they could've been transported, even if expensive, United should've figured out pretty quick that would've been the better move.  Even before they mumped w/Doctor Drug-for-sex, they still had a full plane of customers getting pissed that their flight hadn't left b/c United had mumped up their staffing logistics.  Keep your customer-filled plane moving and buy $3000 first-class tickets on Delta or whatever for your staff to get to the next destination.

It was Chicago to Louisville.  They totally could've driven there in like, 5 hours*.

*no clue how long that drive is.

[TheHamburglar]

The article I read said he's going to get paid because the law states once you get voluntarily bumped the airline has to present you a written copy of your rights outlining timing of rescheduling, repayment/credit guidelines, & reimbursement for additional expenses.  They didn't do that before calling security.


I've been on a flight with the same situation and they held up that paper, read it on the intercom, and said "we're staying here until someone gets off".

[TheHamburglar]

The employees that needed to fly to get to another airport so that they'd be able to staff a flight from that airport - what exactly was the time/distance situation there?  I haven't read anything.

If there was any alternative way they could've been transported, even if expensive, United should've figured out pretty quick that would've been the better move.  Even before they mumped w/Doctor Drug-for-sex, they still had a full plane of customers getting pissed that their flight hadn't left b/c United had mumped up their staffing logistics.  Keep your customer-filled plane moving and buy $3000 first-class tickets on Delta or whatever for your staff to get to the next destination.

It was Chicago to Louisville.  They totally could've driven there in like, 5 hours*.

*no clue how long that drive is.

United should have said "this is the max guideline credit, we'll refund you're money, and pay for your rental car to Louisville.  When you get the rental car to the airport in Louisville, your bags will be waiting for you."

Someone one would have taken it, instead of "$800 or we're randomly kicking someone off".  That's what makes United look bad.  They sent out an email to employees saying, "Yup, they followed our policy."  It's not the kicking the guy off, it's admitting very publicly your policy treats customers like crap. 

[Mikeyis4dcats]

The article I read said he's going to get paid because the law states once you get voluntarily bumped the airline has to present you a written copy of your rights outlining timing of rescheduling, repayment/credit guidelines, & reimbursement for additional expenses.  They didn't do that before calling security.


I've been on a flight with the same situation and they held up that paper, read it on the intercom, and said "we're staying here until someone gets off".

thats the hitch, he didn't get bumped, voluntarily or involuntarily.   By definition you can't get bumped once you've boarded.    They had no right to kick him off the plane unless he was identified as a security risk or making people uncomfortable for some reason.
 

[SdK]

The employees that needed to fly to get to another airport so that they'd be able to staff a flight from that airport - what exactly was the time/distance situation there?  I haven't read anything.

If there was any alternative way they could've been transported, even if expensive, United should've figured out pretty quick that would've been the better move.  Even before they mumped w/Doctor Drug-for-sex, they still had a full plane of customers getting pissed that their flight hadn't left b/c United had mumped up their staffing logistics.  Keep your customer-filled plane moving and buy $3000 first-class tickets on Delta or whatever for your staff to get to the next destination.

It was Chicago to Louisville.  They totally could've driven there in like, 5 hours*.

*no clue how long that drive is.

This was my take as well. Of all the options on the table, they picked the worst one. Put then on another airline, hire a limo, an uber, pay them extra to drive a rented car. Etc.

[Kat Kid]

You could be right.  I honestly don't know.  If United was legally wrong then they should be smacked for it - both PR-wise and whatever they might pay for a fat settlement or in damages. 

If they were legally right, then I don't have a problem with them removing the guy.

Obviously irrelevant to the outcome of this (though it may explain his bizarre behavior), but our Good Doctor apparently has a history of trading painkillers for sex, which is a fun little wrinkle to this story.

holy crap! does law school graduation ceremony include some sort of blood sacrifice to the god of statutes?

If a party doesn't violate the law then I have a hard time faulting them.  Maybe the law should be changed, but I invoke the black letter legal doctrine of don't hate the player hate the game at that point.

I know you are a lawyer, but...
1) not every choice in society is best framed in legal terms. in fact it is often not the best calculus for making a good choice, even in cases where the law is still obeyed.
2) the entire point of this episode that will be missed by 99% of people is that this situation is precisely what happens when individuals challenge the now byzantine entanglements that corporations demand of people to participate in modern life. the state intercedes at the threat of violence on behalf of enforcing the contract. the asymmetry at work is so hopeless it invokes comedy, because the underlying emotion is complete despair.

[pissclams]

this doctor paid money and signed off on the terms of service the airlines made available, then refused to honor the terms of service in the contract that said he would have to wait and accept whatever the airline deemed fair compensation. he refused and so the airline brought in the state to violently enforce the contract. not sure why anyone is surprised or outraged.

let dlew lend a rhetorical flourish with legal precedent about why if you try to assert any sort of inherent human right to dignity in the face of a corporation's terms of service you will be made to bend the knee, violently. just the system asserting its power to keep things running efficiently.

Once he was boarded, it is no longer a case of involuntary denied boarding and became refusal to transport.   Apparently that means United's action was illegal, as there was not any reason to refuse transport.  He's gonna get paid.

I don't know much about airplane rules, but I think the captain or pilot can tell anyone on board to amscray.

that is not true.  Here is an article explaining the requirements they must meet to deny transport or boarding.   Having an employee who needs a seat is not among them.

https://papersplease.org/wp/2012/08/24/does-an-airline-pilot-have-the-right-to-refuse-to-let-you-fly/

read the whole article

I did...

To sum up, a pilot or airline would have the authority to deny transportation to a lawful resident holding a valid ticket if and only if:

    The pilot genuinely believes that refusal to transport this person is necessary for “safety”;
    The airline genuinely believes that the person is or might be “inimical to safety”;
    The refusal of transportation is authorized by valid regulations, in the promulgation of which “the public right of freedom of transit” was considered by the rulemaking authority (so far as we can tell, there are no such regulations);
    The refusal to transport does not violate anyone’s First Amendment right to assemble; and
    Neither the refusal to transport, the laws and regulations purporting to authorize it, nor the manner in which those laws and regulations are carried out violate Article 12 of the ICCPR.

the airline could easily argue that the guy not having a seat presented a safety issue for other passengers

[Mrs. Gooch]

[SdK]

Lawl

[ChiComCat]

Typically, pilots/airline crew have X amount of hours they can be working in Y time frame.  I'm not sure, but driving 5 hours likely counts towards that and making them drive would cause a delay down the line. 

The guy was acting like a child for not being removed.  I get he's mad and it's a stupid situation caused by United but forcing officers to physically remove you is ridiculous. United boarding the passengers and then selecting 4 to be removed was absurdly stupid as well.  Also, congrats to the internet for making a martyr of a sex offender.

[kim carnes]

Typically, pilots/airline crew have X amount of hours they can be working in Y time frame.  I'm not sure, but driving 5 hours likely counts towards that and making them drive would cause a delay down the line. 

The guy was acting like a child for not being removed.  I get he's mad and it's a stupid situation caused by United but forcing officers to physically remove you is ridiculous. United boarding the passengers and then selecting 4 to be removed was absurdly stupid as well.  Also, congrats to the internet for making a martyr of a sex offender.

Good grief. The guys history is irrelevant, it could've happened to anyone.  It is absurd to allow airlines to decide where to draw the line when offering rewards to volunteers.  No chance would I accept $800 in airline credit to get off a Sunday nite flight.

[DQ12]

2) the entire point of this episode that will be missed by 99% of people is that this situation is precisely what happens when individuals challenge the now byzantine entanglements that corporations demand of people to participate in modern life. the state intercedes at the threat of violence on behalf of enforcing the contract. the asymmetry at work is so hopeless it invokes comedy, because the underlying emotion is complete despair.

This seems slightly melodramatic. 

[star seed 7]

@kk

[Trim]

United could've had passengers vote 4 off the plane, reality show style.  Broadcast it, maybe even have the audience get 1 selection to exile.  Perhaps lead to all future passengers being extra friendly w/each other, alliances and crap?

[ChiComCat]

Typically, pilots/airline crew have X amount of hours they can be working in Y time frame.  I'm not sure, but driving 5 hours likely counts towards that and making them drive would cause a delay down the line. 

The guy was acting like a child for not being removed.  I get he's mad and it's a stupid situation caused by United but forcing officers to physically remove you is ridiculous. United boarding the passengers and then selecting 4 to be removed was absurdly stupid as well.  Also, congrats to the internet for making a martyr of a sex offender.

Good grief. The guys history is irrelevant, it could've happened to anyone.  It is absurd to allow airlines to decide where to draw the line when offering rewards to volunteers.  No chance would I accept $800 in airline credit to get off a Sunday nite flight.

Anyone could get asked to leave the flight, most people would not throw a tantrum requiring the police to physically remove them.  Also, who other than airlines would draw the line at rewards for volunteers? 

[Mikeyis4dcats]

Typically, pilots/airline crew have X amount of hours they can be working in Y time frame.  I'm not sure, but driving 5 hours likely counts towards that and making them drive would cause a delay down the line. 

The guy was acting like a child for not being removed.  I get he's mad and it's a stupid situation caused by United but forcing officers to physically remove you is ridiculous. United boarding the passengers and then selecting 4 to be removed was absurdly stupid as well.  Also, congrats to the internet for making a martyr of a sex offender.

Good grief. The guys history is irrelevant, it could've happened to anyone.  It is absurd to allow airlines to decide where to draw the line when offering rewards to volunteers.  No chance would I accept $800 in airline credit to get off a Sunday nite flight.

Anyone could get asked to leave the flight, most people would not throw a tantrum requiring the police to physically remove them.  Also, who other than airlines would draw the line at rewards for volunteers?

aside from what occured after he was assaulted, he doesn't appear to have been unruly before the cops drug him off.
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/he-was-fine-just-like-the-rest-of-us-united-flight-witness-describes-brutal-removal-of-screaming-passenger/

And plenty of people have been unruly who didn't have his criminal history, and I'm sure he's managed to fly plenty of times previously without incident.

[sys]

are all lawyers closet fascists?  perhaps it's a mental quirk among those attracted to law.

[Kat Kid]

If anyone doubts what I am saying, try refusing to pay the insane and capricious fees landlords attempt to collect from your security deposit when checking out and get back to me on what happens. Eventually, you are on the wrong side of the government's gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kim carnes]

Typically, pilots/airline crew have X amount of hours they can be working in Y time frame.  I'm not sure, but driving 5 hours likely counts towards that and making them drive would cause a delay down the line. 

The guy was acting like a child for not being removed.  I get he's mad and it's a stupid situation caused by United but forcing officers to physically remove you is ridiculous. United boarding the passengers and then selecting 4 to be removed was absurdly stupid as well.  Also, congrats to the internet for making a martyr of a sex offender.

Good grief. The guys history is irrelevant, it could've happened to anyone.  It is absurd to allow airlines to decide where to draw the line when offering rewards to volunteers.  No chance would I accept $800 in airline credit to get off a Sunday nite flight.

Anyone could get asked to leave the flight, most people would not throw a tantrum requiring the police to physically remove them. Also, who other than airlines would draw the line at rewards for volunteers?

The same governing body that allows them to violently remove non-violent people from planes