Author Topic: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)  (Read 893395 times)

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Offline pissclams

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1050 on: April 05, 2011, 10:39:40 AM »
don't want to burst your bubble but there's really only two brands:  shitty team and non-shitty team.

1) good team and 2) everyone else
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 10:41:18 AM by pissclams »


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Offline pissclams

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1051 on: April 05, 2011, 10:41:46 AM »
frank doesn't need a raise, jfc.  and the brand crap was funny too.  tons of dumbassery everywhere in this thread. 


I don't think we need to throw tons of money at him, but I think we're past the point of wondering if he'll keep kstate at a high level.
have you clicked on any of the recruiting threads lately?

i don't give 2 shits about recruiting, i just care about results. 
just a "heads up", the two are directly related.  dumbass_Cat

until I start to see shitty results, I DGAF, fake_clams
COACH 'EM UP FRANK!


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Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1052 on: April 05, 2011, 10:42:22 AM »
No we're not . . . and we don't need to throw any more money around.   For the amount of money that K-State basketball makes, and for what Frank has done to date.  He's compensated quite well . . . and note, I'm not saying we can't afford to pay him another $500K a year or even more, because we can.   But that puts Frank in the same arena as coaches who have done a hell of a lot a more than he has/coaches with great agents working for stupid schools who pay too much for what they get.

This is just part of the issue and challenge of college athletics right now though. I don't disagree with anything you said, but when other programs are overpaying (just look at Ford at OSU, Kruger at OU, and even Haith at MU) in our own conference, it forces your hand a bit. Especially when you have what has been talked about before, one of the top "brand" coaches in the league. Granted, it is still early and there is still risk involved, but the first 4 years and some sustained success have shown that its probably worth the risk.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1053 on: April 05, 2011, 10:43:06 AM »
That's really over-simplifying it.

As I mentioned above, you pay to keep a brand.  Kansas State isn't on ESPN all of the time, or Jim Rome all of the time, because we finish in the top four of the Big 12 every year.  We get that because of Frank Martin and the fact that he's good for a clip or a soundbyte.

Frank is one of those coaches that kind of transcends the game because of his persona.  We'll always have cameras on us because the cameras love him.  We'll always have articles written about us because he gives a great quote.  You can't put a price on that because that benefits the program AND the university.  It's free advertising.

Kansas State isn't relevant because of one Elite 8 run.  Kansas State is relevant because Frank is a good story.  Otherwise, we're Missouri, and no one gives a crap about Missouri (as you've clearly seen).

The branding issue is a major point in all this, and one that can't be overlooked. And its noticed, Telep wrote about it in November:

Quote
1. The scowl is the brand
The best basketball teams in America recruit to their brand. Teams who struggle to establish their brand often times wind up navigating the high seas of college basketball without a compass. Your brand or identity can be a style of play like Syracuse's zone or a mindset akin to Michigan State's toughness.
At Kansas State, the brand is the coach. Frank Martin sets the tone and is the face of the program. Each icy stare he shoots at a player isn't met with resistance but respect and the guys truly revere him on his team. Martin recruits guys with a chip on their shoulder and coaches them hard.

When you bring in guys who feel slighted like Jacob Pullen (not a top 100 player) and Will Spradling, they want to prove people wrong. Martin uses that motivation and by doing so he appeals to the next Pullen sitting in his living room watching Kansas State gang up on higher-rated prospects and teams. Martin is the brand and right now it's strong and appealing.

We have something that can't be replaced easily if you let it go. When Kruger left K-State still had a brand as a program. We've been through Huggins, Beasley, Walker, and Pullen in the last 5 years, but when you ask 95% (or more) of the public about K-State basketball, most will mention Frank Martin first. This is really an amazing thing, I think we are so close to it as fans we really don't realize how amazing it is, especially when a big part of the star power in college basketball is from the coaches, past and present. From Wooden to Knight to Coach K to Calhoun. Players come and go so often, the face of programs either becomes their tradition/success, their coach, or eventually both. All signs point to us having at least the beginning stages of that, it would be stupid to let that go because we're too cheap to pony up another 300-500K per year.

I agree

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1054 on: April 05, 2011, 10:43:32 AM »
don't want to burst your bubble but there's really only two brands:  cacty team and non-cacty team.

1) good team and 2) everyone else

More often than not, the brand of good teams becomes the coach. As long as K-State stays good, Martin is an exceptional brand.

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1055 on: April 05, 2011, 10:44:18 AM »
No we're not . . . and we don't need to throw any more money around.   For the amount of money that K-State basketball makes, and for what Frank has done to date.  He's compensated quite well . . . and note, I'm not saying we can't afford to pay him another $500K a year or even more, because we can.   But that puts Frank in the same arena as coaches who have done a hell of a lot a more than he has/coaches with great agents working for stupid schools who pay too much for what they get.

This is just part of the issue and challenge of college athletics right now though. I don't disagree with anything you said, but when other programs are overpaying (just look at Ford at OSU, Kruger at OU, and even Haith at MU) in our own conference, it forces your hand a bit. Especially when you have what has been talked about before, one of the top "brand" coaches in the league. Granted, it is still early and there is still risk involved, but the first 4 years and some sustained success have shown that its probably worth the risk.

Inflation.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1056 on: April 05, 2011, 10:45:45 AM »
don't want to burst your bubble but there's really only two brands:  shitty team and non-shitty team.

1) good team and 2) everyone else

I can't tell if you're being serious or not

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1057 on: April 05, 2011, 10:47:12 AM »
Inflation.

Paying Lon Kruger more than $2 Mil goes beyond inflation, especially when you compare the economics of college basketball to the real world.  But it is what it is, if you want to be good and stay good, you have to spend the money.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1058 on: April 05, 2011, 10:52:42 AM »
But it is what it is, if you want to be good and stay good, you have to spend the money.

We have a lot of football kstateos that are having a difficult time grasping this concept.

Offline EllToPay

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1059 on: April 05, 2011, 10:55:38 AM »
Quote
j_rake Jeffrey Rake
K-State fans won't like Frank Martin's responses on the @TimBrando show.
20 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

jfc, rake. what the hell did he say?

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1060 on: April 05, 2011, 10:56:00 AM »
Inflation.

Paying Lon Kruger more than $2 Mil goes beyond inflation, especially when you compare the economics of college basketball to the real world.  But it is what it is, if you want to be good and stay good, you have to spend the money.

I didn't mean inflation in a macroeconomic sense (to include the US or the world economies), but a very specific inflation that seems to be occuring with college bball coaches (could probably extrapolate to football, too.)

I have no idea what margins look like, income breakdowns, etc etc, but if we are solidly profitable right now (making many millions of dollars each year) it'd be silly not to spend a little more to keep that, if that's what it took.  I'm with the camp that right now is not the time to be cheap.  

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1061 on: April 05, 2011, 11:00:09 AM »
But it is what it is, if you want to be good and stay good, you have to spend the money.

We have a lot of football kstateos that are having a difficult time grasping this concept.

Yes, we can take a chance by bringing Frank's pay up, probably close to $2 Mil per year.  

Or we stand firm with his current contract, take a risk that it may not be enough, and then see what we can get on the open market.

Its not hard to see which option seems more attractive (and overall less risk) to me.

Offline j rake

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1062 on: April 05, 2011, 11:02:01 AM »
Quote
j_rake Jeffrey Rake
K-State fans won't like Frank Martin's responses on the @TimBrando show.
20 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

jfc, rake. what the hell did he say?

NEVER SAY NEVER

Offline WillieWatanabe

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1063 on: April 05, 2011, 11:02:53 AM »
Quote
j_rake Jeffrey Rake
K-State fans won't like Frank Martin's responses on the @TimBrando show.
20 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

jfc, rake. what the hell did he say?

NEVER SAY NEVER

that's it?
Sometimes I think of the Book of Job and how God likes to really eff with people.
- chunkles

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1064 on: April 05, 2011, 11:03:59 AM »
Quote
j_rake Jeffrey Rake
K-State fans won't like Frank Martin's responses on the @TimBrando show.
20 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

jfc, rake. what the hell did he say?

NEVER SAY NEVER

Good.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1065 on: April 05, 2011, 11:07:38 AM »
Okay . . . I guess if it means assuring at least staying interesting in hoops one way or or another, give Frank a big fat raise and join the 3rd choice and that's taking a risk.  

I supposse if it takes $1.8 or $2 million a year to finish 3rd thru 5th  in the conference (because with Frank's recruiting that's the best it's ever going to be and I'm okay with that for the most part) and making the NCAA tourney most of the time . . . then so be it.

But while I'm all about spending big money when it's merited,  I am against spending stupid money . . . and paying Lon Kruger $2.2 million a year is stupid, and paying Frank $1.8 to $2 million a year is fringe stupid at this juncture and IMO.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 11:09:21 AM by sonofdaxjones »

Offline EllToPay

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1066 on: April 05, 2011, 11:10:17 AM »
Quote
j_rake Jeffrey Rake
Frank Martin: "I'm at K-State right now because I haven't had opportunities to make more money elsewhere." #outofcontext
9 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

:frown:

Offline 0.42

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1067 on: April 05, 2011, 11:11:51 AM »
Quote
j_rake Jeffrey Rake
Frank Martin: "I'm at K-State right now because I haven't had opportunities to make more money elsewhere." #outofcontext
9 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

:frown:


K-State Basketball. We'll be Ready.

Offline chum1

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1068 on: April 05, 2011, 11:15:51 AM »
so much for serious discussion about bama. 

so, who do you guys think is the biggest homer:  mir or manhatter?

Offline WillieWatanabe

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1069 on: April 05, 2011, 11:17:42 AM »
Quote
j_rake Jeffrey Rake
Frank Martin: "I'm at K-State right now because I haven't had opportunities to make more money elsewhere." #outofcontext
9 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

:frown:


Quote
ejwestksu Eric Westerman

@j_rake Actually, that's the exact opposite of what Martin said. He's at K-State despite having opportunities for raises elsewhere.

heh
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Offline sys

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1070 on: April 05, 2011, 11:18:19 AM »
Quote
j_rake Jeffrey Rake
K-State fans won't like Frank Martin's responses on the @TimBrando show.
20 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

jfc, rake. what the hell did he say?

NEVER SAY NEVER

mellinger - "watch out kstate fans, because in tomorrow's blog i outline why the timing is PERFECT for martin to leave."
mellinger tomorrow - "pullen and kelly are seniors, they won't be back."
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1071 on: April 05, 2011, 11:18:57 AM »
Okay . . . I guess if it means assuring at least staying interesting in hoops one way or or another, give Frank a big fat raise and join the 3rd choice and that's taking a risk.  

I supposse if it takes $1.8 or $2 million a year to finish 3rd thru 5th  in the conference (because with Frank's recruiting that's the best it's ever going to be and I'm okay with that for the most part) and making the NCAA tourney most of the time . . . then so be it.

But while I'm all about spending big money when it's merited,  I am against spending stupid money . . . and paying Lon Kruger $2.2 million a year is stupid, and paying Frank $1.8 to $2 million a year is fringe stupid at this juncture and IMO.



Fair enough.

If we did give him more money, I'd advocate keeping the same salary structure and increase the buyouts. Yesterday I said 200K, but I'd probably go 400K to 500K now.

$1.7 million in 2011-12, $1.8 million in 2012-13, $1.9 million in 2013-14 and $2.0 million in 2014-15.  Then increase the buyout to $2.5 million this year, $2.0 million next, and so forth. Maybe up the incentives slightly, but not a lot, just bring up the guaranteed money.

Offline sys

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1072 on: April 05, 2011, 11:19:16 AM »
so much for serious discussion about bama.

grant won't leave, chum1.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1073 on: April 05, 2011, 11:25:38 AM »
what makes it "good"?  in comparison with what?

cu, nu, baylor, tt, ou, isu - definitely
osu, mu - possibly


kstate is better than tech, nu & cu.  not better than any of the others mentioned.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline kso_FAN

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