Author Topic: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)  (Read 893533 times)

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Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1000 on: April 04, 2011, 11:30:31 PM »
Okay, the horrible game is over, the squabbling over the KSU vs. Miami job is hopefully drawing to a close (because KSU is the better job, obviously), and now we can start talking about how much Frank can command for his extension.

I say KSU starts at $1.8 per year plus incentives.  Seems like a reasonable starting point.

Thoughts?

Just restructure. Keep the current deal, but add on around 200K per year.  Instead of $1.3 million in 2011-12, $1.4 million in 2012-13, $1.5 million in 2013-14 and $1.6 million in 2014-15, make it something like this: $1.5 million in 2011-12, $1.6 million in 2012-13, $1.7 million in 2013-14 and $1.8 million in 2014-15. Plus incentives.

Then reset the buyout; $2 million this season, then $1 after next, and so on.

I don't know, man.  Market value is skyrocketing, and we had a budget surplus of what?  $4 million?

Snyder certainly isn't the one getting our Powercat pasted all over ESPN.  Deb Patterson isn't going on Jim Rome and getting slobbered all over.  

I guess what I'm saying is that we're paying for Frank Martin: The Brand, which is immensely popular and elevates Kansas State: The Brand.  I think he's worth a $500K bump in the restructure that says 1.8, 1.9, 2.0, 2.1, etc.

I like your idea, but I think we need to just show him we're serious and just be done with it.  We're paying Snyder $1.85 million to basically act like a Jersey crime lord and give jobs to buddies and relatives with no other job skills, so Frank should get roughly the equal amount for making us relevant on a national scale.

Offline Deez Nutz

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1001 on: April 04, 2011, 11:31:19 PM »
Okay, the horrible game is over, the squabbling over the KSU vs. Miami job is hopefully drawing to a close (because KSU is the better job, obviously), and now we can start talking about how much Frank can command for his extension.

I say KSU starts at $1.8 per year plus incentives.  Seems like a reasonable starting point.

Thoughts?

If we do end up extending him, I hope it is done right.  He needs to be at $2 million plus with raises for the staff which will allow for a high buyout.  Part of the reason that we are worried about lateral or worse moves like Oregon, Depaul, NCSU, and Miami is that his contract blows.  However, at this point it would appear that we would be bidding against ourselves which isn't a good thing.

Here's something I debated with a co-worker...

I don't know what we're paying Underwood, Figgs, Greenwalt, etc., but if Frank is the loyal guy I think he is, and Currie is the guy I think he is (i.e. he'll go outside the current staff for a coach), something tells me the school that hires him is hiring the whole crew, and Frank wouldn't feel right letting his guys swing in the wind without jobs.  That's the biggest reason I don't think Miami is a threat; they can pay him, but I don't think they can handle the entourage.

Now, my assumption could have no basis in reality, and I could be way off base, but I think we need to keep throwing money at the whole lot of them.  That seems like it's every bit, if not more, likely to keep him here.

Last year when Frank's contract was redone, all of the assistants got raises too, I believe.  At least that's what Currie said at the press conference anyway.

Offline doom

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1002 on: April 04, 2011, 11:31:58 PM »
Okay, the horrible game is over, the squabbling over the KSU vs. Miami job is hopefully drawing to a close (because KSU is the better job, obviously), and now we can start talking about how much Frank can command for his extension.

I say KSU starts at $1.8 per year plus incentives.  Seems like a reasonable starting point.

Thoughts?

If we do end up extending him, I hope it is done right.  He needs to be at $2 million plus with raises for the staff which will allow for a high buyout.  Part of the reason that we are worried about lateral or worse moves like Oregon, Depaul, NCSU, and Miami is that his contract blows.  However, at this point it would appear that we would be bidding against ourselves which isn't a good thing.

Here's something I debated with a co-worker...

I don't know what we're paying Underwood, Figgs, Greenwalt, etc., but if Frank is the loyal guy I think he is, and Currie is the guy I think he is (i.e. he'll go outside the current staff for a coach), something tells me the school that hires him is hiring the whole crew, and Frank wouldn't feel right letting his guys swing in the wind without jobs.  That's the biggest reason I don't think Miami is a threat; they can pay him, but I don't think they can handle the entourage.

Now, my assumption could have no basis in reality, and I could be way off base, but I think we need to keep throwing money at the whole lot of them.  That seems like it's every bit, if not more, likely to keep him here.

I think we should specifically throw more money at Figgz, Greeny, and maybe Assaley.  Hill makes enough as it is, and Frank seems like me might kill Brad someday.
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Offline sys

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1003 on: April 04, 2011, 11:37:28 PM »
i wouldn't negotiate from weakness, just my bias.


if i still felt like it was something to do over the summer or next fall, then i'd dump in a ton of retention bonus money to even out the defacto buyout.  could bump up the salary as well or not.  at this level, i really don't think money is going to be what causes martin to stay or go over then next couple years.



not going to go back and look for it to quote, but, jt, good observo re. kstate fans underrating ks/kc talent because for 20 years kstate got so little of it.  
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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1004 on: April 04, 2011, 11:38:36 PM »
I think we should specifically throw more money at Figgz, Greeny, and maybe Assaley.  Hill makes enough as it is, and Frank seems like me might kill Brad someday.

can't let assaley get away.
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Offline jtksu

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1005 on: April 05, 2011, 12:29:05 AM »
While we're throwing otherpeople's money around, why not give Phil Jackson like 10 mil per year?  I promise we will recruit like nobody's business.  The fact is- Frank isn't worth 2 mil.  He may be someday, but he isn't right now.   We could likely get a very talented coach for less than that.   I guess there must be a bunch of poor ass, lotto scratching mofos in this thread.  Rich people didn't become rich by wasting money, no matter what part of the country they live in.  If Frank's deal is 1.5sh, renegotiate to 1.7 ish, with raises for the staff.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1006 on: April 05, 2011, 12:36:20 AM »
While we're throwing otherpeople's money around, why not give Phil Jackson like 10 mil per year?  I promise we will recruit like nobody's business.  The fact is- Frank isn't worth 2 mil.  He may be someday, but he isn't right now.   We could likely get a very talented coach for less than that.   I guess there must be a bunch of poor ass, lotto scratching mofos in this thread.  Rich people didn't become rich by wasting money, no matter what part of the country they live in.  If Frank's deal is 1.5sh, renegotiate to 1.7 ish, with raises for the staff.

If necessary, you pay whatever it takes to keep someone who has gone to four straight post-season tournaments (NCAA 75% of the time) and finished in the top four of their conference every year they've been the coach.

You could end up with Frank Haith if you play serious hardball.

Offline jtksu

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1007 on: April 05, 2011, 12:40:31 AM »
Gotcha- just throw money around.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1008 on: April 05, 2011, 12:45:33 AM »
While we're throwing otherpeople's money around, why not give Phil Jackson like 10 mil per year?  I promise we will recruit like nobody's business.  The fact is- Frank isn't worth 2 mil.  He may be someday, but he isn't right now.   We could likely get a very talented coach for less than that.   I guess there must be a bunch of poor ass, lotto scratching mofos in this thread.  Rich people didn't become rich by wasting money, no matter what part of the country they live in.  If Frank's deal is 1.5sh, renegotiate to 1.7 ish, with raises for the staff.

Pretty certain that I said I wouldn't negotiate against ourselves, it isn't needed at this point.  Bumping his to $1.5-$1.7 won't be an option if we have to renegotiate, whoever makes him an offer will offer at least that.  A $200,000 raise, pfft.  

Had this "worth" conversation last week, not having it again.  When you measure worth, consider the revenues of the basketball program now and then what it was before Huggins and Frank.  Really when we are talking about literally millions in profits, a few hundred thousand isn't a big deal to commit to a known entity that donors are happy with.  The shitty football coach makes over $2 million.  I want to become a big time program, we won't get there by being cheap with a couple of dollars.  We have the money, and by the way it isn't "other peoples money."  I donate and I'll donate more if I know the money is being used correctly.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1009 on: April 05, 2011, 12:50:26 AM »
Gotcha- just throw money around.

That's really over-simplifying it.

As I mentioned above, you pay to keep a brand.  Kansas State isn't on ESPN all of the time, or Jim Rome all of the time, because we finish in the top four of the Big 12 every year.  We get that because of Frank Martin and the fact that he's good for a clip or a soundbyte.

Frank is one of those coaches that kind of transcends the game because of his persona.  We'll always have cameras on us because the cameras love him.  We'll always have articles written about us because he gives a great quote.  You can't put a price on that because that benefits the program AND the university.  It's free advertising.

Kansas State isn't relevant because of one Elite 8 run.  Kansas State is relevant because Frank is a good story.  Otherwise, we're Missouri, and no one gives a crap about Missouri (as you've clearly seen).

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1010 on: April 05, 2011, 12:51:25 AM »
Gotcha- just throw money around.

I don't think he is proposing the raise right now.  That being said IF he did get the raise without the price being pushed up by another athletic department you could also throw in the Buzz Williams like $3 million buyout.  The issue problem with waiting is that you run the risk of having to pay more.  There is no doubt that if someone wants Frank it is going to cost a hell of a lot more to match someones offer and bump up a buyout.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1011 on: April 05, 2011, 12:59:29 AM »
Gotcha- just throw money around.

I don't think he is proposing the raise right now.  That being said IF he did get the raise without the price being pushed up by another athletic department you could also throw in the Buzz Williams like $3 million buyout.  The issue problem with waiting is that you run the risk of having to pay more.  There is no doubt that if someone wants Frank it is going to cost a hell of a lot more to match someones offer and bump up a buyout.

This.  A million times this.

Oregon and DePaul offered ungodly sums of money at Frank last year, and he stayed for his piddly extension.

What Frank makes right now puts him at risk for lateral moves and bad moves motivated by big money (e.g. NC State).  You need to take lateral moves out of the equation.  You do that by paying your coach a competitive salary.

What do we know?  LHC Bill Snyder makes at least $1.85 million.  As I'm aware, Travis Ford is the fourth highest paid coach in the conference at 1.8 million.  It only seems fair that he be paid as much as a football coach that isn't providing anything in terms of media exposure or quality results, and in the top quartile of conference coaches for finishing in the top quartile every year he's been a head coach.

Therefore, I want him to make at least $1.8 million.  $500K.  Big whoop.  He's selling out the arena, increasing donations, and the momentum behind his program secured enough money to get a practice facility built based only on private donations (for two programs no less).

To me, that seems like a steal.

Offline Benja

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1012 on: April 05, 2011, 01:07:33 AM »
While we're throwing otherpeople's money around, why not give Phil Jackson like 10 mil per year?  I promise we will recruit like nobody's business.  The fact is- Frank isn't worth 2 mil.  He may be someday, but he isn't right now.   We could likely get a very talented coach for less than that.   I guess there must be a bunch of poor ass, lotto scratching mofos in this thread.  Rich people didn't become rich by wasting money, no matter what part of the country they live in.  If Frank's deal is 1.5sh, renegotiate to 1.7 ish, with raises for the staff.

If necessary, you pay whatever it takes to keep someone who has gone to four straight post-season tournaments (NCAA 75% of the time) and finished in the top four of their conference every year they've been the coach.

Come on Pan. Whatever it takes? Now you're sounding like the tuck fans that are terrified of ever letting go of OB. I rough ridin' love Frank and he should get what he deserves and if another school offers more we should battle to keep him. But once the practice facility gets done you could actually call k-state a pretty good job. And I'm pretty glad we have an AD now that knows this and won't negotiate like coaches are holding us hostage.

Offline Benja

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1013 on: April 05, 2011, 01:11:46 AM »
Gotcha- just throw money around.

That's really over-simplifying it.

As I mentioned above, you pay to keep a brand.  Kansas State isn't on ESPN all of the time, or Jim Rome all of the time, because we finish in the top four of the Big 12 every year.  We get that because of Frank Martin and the fact that he's good for a clip or a soundbyte.

Frank is one of those coaches that kind of transcends the game because of his persona.  We'll always have cameras on us because the cameras love him.  We'll always have articles written about us because he gives a great quote.  You can't put a price on that because that benefits the program AND the university.  It's free advertising.

Kansas State isn't relevant because of one Elite 8 run.  Kansas State is relevant because Frank is a good story.  Otherwise, we're Missouri, and no one gives a crap about Missouri (as you've clearly seen).

These are all really good points though. This definitely raises Frank's worth. It's like the anti-Snyder effect.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1014 on: April 05, 2011, 01:22:07 AM »
Gotcha- just throw money around.

That's really over-simplifying it.

As I mentioned above, you pay to keep a brand.  Kansas State isn't on ESPN all of the time, or Jim Rome all of the time, because we finish in the top four of the Big 12 every year.  We get that because of Frank Martin and the fact that he's good for a clip or a soundbyte.

Frank is one of those coaches that kind of transcends the game because of his persona.  We'll always have cameras on us because the cameras love him.  We'll always have articles written about us because he gives a great quote.  You can't put a price on that because that benefits the program AND the university.  It's free advertising.

Kansas State isn't relevant because of one Elite 8 run.  Kansas State is relevant because Frank is a good story.  Otherwise, we're Missouri, and no one gives a crap about Missouri (as you've clearly seen).

These are all really good points though. This definitely raises Frank's worth. It's like the anti-Snyder effect.

I'm not being all 'sky is falling' tuckish.  I just want people to recognize that Frank's value extends past wins and losses for us.

Also, aside from that, with all of the mid-major coaches scrambling back to their current jobs with long term extensions, you don't want to be in the market for a new coach right now, or so it seems.  You may have to overpay to prevent taking a real step back.

Can you find a coach out there on your radar that has Frank's resume AND out-of-the-box charisma?  I saw one person this off-season, and he just signed an eight year extension with VCU.

After that, it's just a sea of 'meh' and a lot of tier 3 broadcasts because ESPN doesn't care about KSU without Frank Martin on Big Monday with a 'coach cam' glued on his face.

Offline nicname

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1015 on: April 05, 2011, 02:09:24 AM »
Gotcha- just throw money around.

That's really over-simplifying it.

As I mentioned above, you pay to keep a brand.  Kansas State isn't on ESPN all of the time, or Jim Rome all of the time, because we finish in the top four of the Big 12 every year.  We get that because of Frank Martin and the fact that he's good for a clip or a soundbyte.

Frank is one of those coaches that kind of transcends the game because of his persona.  We'll always have cameras on us because the cameras love him.  We'll always have articles written about us because he gives a great quote.  You can't put a price on that because that benefits the program AND the university.  It's free advertising.

Kansas State isn't relevant because of one Elite 8 run.  Kansas State is relevant because Frank is a good story.  Otherwise, we're Missouri, and no one gives a crap about Missouri (as you've clearly seen).

These are all really good points though. This definitely raises Frank's worth. It's like the anti-Snyder effect.

I'm not being all 'sky is falling' tuckish.  I just want people to recognize that Frank's value extends past wins and losses for us.

Also, aside from that, with all of the mid-major coaches scrambling back to their current jobs with long term extensions, you don't want to be in the market for a new coach right now, or so it seems.  You may have to overpay to prevent taking a real step back.

Can you find a coach out there on your radar that has Frank's resume AND out-of-the-box charisma?  I saw one person this off-season, and he just signed an eight year extension with VCU.

After that, it's just a sea of 'meh' and a lot of tier 3 broadcasts because ESPN doesn't care about KSU without Frank Martin on Big Monday with a 'coach cam' glued on his face.

Great post.
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Offline sys

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1016 on: April 05, 2011, 02:14:51 AM »
once the practice facility gets done you could actually call k-state a pretty good job.

what makes it "good"?  in comparison with what?
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Offline jtksu

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1017 on: April 05, 2011, 06:14:59 AM »
Kesus, Sys, get over yourself.  grab a dictionary and find "good,"  And we're obviously talking about one thing, D1 college basketball.  Stop acting like you're some sort of genius.  You may be a savant but we all know what typically precides that term.  On a side note- anyone suggesting that Frank should be paid like Bill is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  If Frank is able to replicate the DoD in the OOD, maybe.  I know who paysthe billls and whatever retards suggested that obviously doesn't.

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1018 on: April 05, 2011, 07:01:26 AM »
Kesus, Sys, get over yourself.  grab a dictionary and find "good,"  And we're obviously talking about one thing, D1 college basketball.  Stop acting like you're some sort of genius.  You may be a savant but we all know what typically precides that term.  On a side note- anyone suggesting that Frank should be paid like Bill is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). If Frank is able to replicate the DoD in the OOD, maybe.  I know who paysthe billls and whatever retards suggested that obviously doesn't.

So, yeah, a bunch of conference wins and one conference title in 15 years.  Got it.

Frank already has a really good conference winning percentage, and he has 11 years to win a conference title, so your argument doesn't hold much water.

And thank you for completely ignoring my point about getting Kansas State out there on a national scale.  Since Bill hunkers down and acts like a crotchety hermit 365 days a year, we need to at least acknowledge Frank's value as being the face of our athletic department.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 07:03:58 AM by Panjandrum »

Offline Cire

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1019 on: April 05, 2011, 07:03:37 AM »
KSU's a good job.  Good fan support, good admin support.  Soon to be good facilities.  If they restructure frank's contract in the ballpark of 1.75-2 per year it's even better.

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1020 on: April 05, 2011, 07:18:27 AM »
SaveUMFootball Papa Cane
UM Basketball Coaching Search Update: Miami has contacted Alabama HC and native Miamian Anthony Grant.

Mods, should we start a separate UM Coach watch thread?

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1021 on: April 05, 2011, 07:43:10 AM »
I'm sorry I missed the recruiting discussion. I think the "location doesn't matter" folks are ignoring the long term. I agree there would be little to no difference in the short term. Long term, proximity to a large population base DOES matter. Huggs talked about it quite a bit during his time here - you can't just have underclassmen pop in for an open gym or unofficial visit in Manhattan like you can in Cincinnati or Miami or UConn. You don't think easier access to face time with recruits isn't an advantage? If so, you're so beyond dumbass I don't even know where to start.

Location is not an excuse, and it can be overcome (KU, OSU, and MU really have the same disadvantage), but it is reality.

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1022 on: April 05, 2011, 08:02:50 AM »
You know what I enjoyed besides having ridic. adorable players?

The Streak.

Gonna suck playing Doc and Boyle on Wednesdays from now on.

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1023 on: April 05, 2011, 08:18:54 AM »


That's really over-simplifying it.

As I mentioned above, you pay to keep a brand.  Kansas State isn't on ESPN all of the time, or Jim Rome all of the time, because we finish in the top four of the Big 12 every year.  We get that because of Frank Martin and the fact that he's good for a clip or a soundbyte.

Frank is one of those coaches that kind of transcends the game because of his persona.  We'll always have cameras on us because the cameras love him.  We'll always have articles written about us because he gives a great quote.  You can't put a price on that because that benefits the program AND the university.  It's free advertising.

Kansas State isn't relevant because of one Elite 8 run.  Kansas State is relevant because Frank is a good story.  Otherwise, we're Missouri, and no one gives a crap about Missouri (as you've clearly seen).


Excellent points.

As the old adage goes, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

I think the strategy is far more sound to continue the heavy financial commitment to preserve what we have in a proven commodity because we could easily be facing a Missouri scenario.  We know what we have in Frank.  The sample size is large enough to deduct that this guy is a hell of a coach, one that historically is in line with some of the best that have ever coached here.  And as you noted maybe one of the most important facet of Frank's value is tremendous ability to elevate the brand for our university.  I mention all of this because the prior 20 years in which the program languished in obscurity before Frank is still fresh in my mind.

If we're in a financial position to do it, I think it's greatly important from a visible demonstration of commitment to elevate his salary again in accordance with the shifting market.  An additional 400 to 500k annually is more that worthy considering the returns, in my opinion.




Texas Christian University coach Gary Patterson has been hired as Kansas State's 34th football coach, multiple sources have confirmed to GoPowercat.com.  Patterson replaces Ron Prince, who was fired Wednesday. - Tim Fitzgerald   Nov, 7, 2008

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Coaching Carousel Master Thread (MAYBE FEATURING THE KSU CATS?)
« Reply #1024 on: April 05, 2011, 08:23:02 AM »
The only reason Frank's contract looks low is because Dalonte makes so much. Frank should get a small raise, but bumping him up to $2 million per year and paying Dalonte almost half a million is excessive. Keep in mind that we will be looking for a new football coach in a couple of years, and we will need all the money we can get if we want somebody good for that role.