Nino Williams: 2011-12 & debate about whether Southwell sucks or not.

[cas4ksu]

he's an asset on offense.

totally disagree. when teams are begging him to shoot an unguarded 15 foot jumper, and he still doesn't shoot it, tells you about all you need to know about him as a liability on offense.

also, the talking point about shane being some sort of great passer is entirely over rated. martavious had a better a/to ratio.

[kscottbailey]

he's an asset on offense.

totally disagree. when teams are begging him to shoot an unguarded 15 foot jumper, and he still doesn't shoot it, tells you about all you need to know about him as a liability on offense.

also, the talking point about shane being some sort of great passer is entirely over rated. martavious had a better a/to ratio.

Shane>>>>>Martavious.

It's not even close. In the games that mattered (conference) Martavious pissed down his leg, with a 0.7 A/TO. Shane was second-best on the team (tied with Will) at 1.1 A/TO. Please don't ever compare a player with real upside (which Shane has) to Martavious. Irving is going to end up being little more than a high-energy guy off the bench.

Was Shane required to be a big scorer this year? No. But his offensive game is about setting other people up. Anyone with a basketball IQ of >0 could see that. And defensively, he was a huge asset, whenever Frank gave him the minutes to be one. Have we so quickly forgotten what he did to Jordan Hamilton?

[cas4ksu]

he's an asset on offense.

totally disagree. when teams are begging him to shoot an unguarded 15 foot jumper, and he still doesn't shoot it, tells you about all you need to know about him as a liability on offense.

also, the talking point about shane being some sort of great passer is entirely over rated. martavious had a better a/to ratio.

Shane>>>>>Martavious.

It's not even close. In the games that mattered (conference) Martavious pissed down his leg, with a 0.7 A/TO. Shane was second-best on the team (tied with Will) at 1.1 A/TO. Please don't ever compare a player with real upside (which Shane has) to Martavious. Irving is going to end up being little more than a high-energy guy off the bench.

Was Shane required to be a big scorer this year? No. But his offensive game is about setting other people up. Anyone with a basketball IQ of >0 could see that. And defensively, he was a huge asset, whenever Frank gave him the minutes to be one. Have we so quickly forgotten what he did to Jordan Hamilton?

i wasn't saying martavious was better than shane at all. just that his a/to ratio was better. and i'll concede that shane played very well in the UT game. then thinking of games off of the top of my head where he was a non-factor such as both ISU games and the CU game in the Big 12 tourney. defensively, he does clearly have potential. but until he puts something that resembles an offensive game outside of "distributing", then he's an average player at best in the big 12 and that's being pretty generous towards shane.

[kstate4life]

he's an asset on offense.

totally disagree. when teams are begging him to shoot an unguarded 15 foot jumper, and he still doesn't shoot it, tells you about all you need to know about him as a liability on offense.

also, the talking point about shane being some sort of great passer is entirely over rated. martavious had a better a/to ratio.

Shane>>>>>Martavious.

It's not even close. In the games that mattered (conference) Martavious pissed down his leg, with a 0.7 A/TO. Shane was second-best on the team (tied with Will) at 1.1 A/TO. Please don't ever compare a player with real upside (which Shane has) to Martavious. Irving is going to end up being little more than a high-energy guy off the bench.

Was Shane required to be a big scorer this year? No. But his offensive game is about setting other people up. Anyone with a basketball IQ of >0 could see that. And defensively, he was a huge asset, whenever Frank gave him the minutes to be one. Have we so quickly forgotten what he did to Jordan Hamilton?

i wasn't saying martavious was better than shane at all. just that his a/to ratio was better. and i'll concede that shane played very well in the UT game. then thinking of games off of the top of my head where he was a non-factor such as both ISU games and the CU game in the Big 12 tourney. defensively, he does clearly have potential. but until he puts something that resembles an offensive game outside of "distributing", then he's an average player at best in the big 12 and that's being pretty generous towards shane.

You must be forgetting he was only a FRESHMEN!  Cut him some slack, I see serious potential in Southwell.  Now whether that comes to fruition or not, is yet to be seen.

[1albatross]

1.1 a/to ratio is awful.  Please don't use that as a talking point to hype up your boy.  I don't give a crap if it's 2nd or 3rd best on the team.  Not like it's head and shoulders above Tay's .7 ratio.  

As far as Tay pissing down his leg...he is one of 2 players to actually show up against Duke this year.

[CNS]

1.1 a/to ratio is awful.  Please don't use that as a talking point to hype up your boy.  I don't give a crap if it's 2nd or 3rd best on the team.  Not like it's head and shoulders above Tay's .7 ratio.  

As far as Tay pissing down his leg...he is one of 2 players to actually show up against Duke this year.

Tay had a couple dece games toward the end of the year where he actually did more than just not eff up too bad while Jake took a breather for 30-60 seconds.  In those games he attacked on the dribble and either dished decently or had a decent shot at the rim.  He missed several of those(on his own accord, not wholly due to D) , but got to the rim regardless.  He looked fine in those brief snap shots.  However, long term, Shane appears to have a much higher ceiling.

[SuperG]

i don't see why anyone would expect anything out of nick this coming year.  rodney avg'd 3ppg/2rpg in 12mpg his freshman year.   

'Gruds production out of Nino next year would be fine.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=rodney-mcgruder&dominique-sutton=2007-2008&p1=dominique-sutton&p2=shane-southwell&rodney-mcgruder=2009-2010

 

Nick + rod talk.  Rod + nino talk.

Link comparing rod, dom, shane.   

Read through Catzackers comment and read Nino instead of Nick. Considering the context I think there's a chance he meant to type Nino and not Nick.

Anyway, that's why.

[kstate4life]

1.1 a/to ratio is awful.  Please don't use that as a talking point to hype up your boy.  I don't give a crap if it's 2nd or 3rd best on the team.  Not like it's head and shoulders above Tay's .7 ratio.  

As far as Tay pissing down his leg...he is one of 2 players to actually show up against Duke this year.

Tay had a couple dece games toward the end of the year where he actually did more than just not eff up too bad while Jake took a breather for 30-60 seconds.  In those games he attacked on the dribble and either dished decently or had a decent shot at the rim.  He missed several of those(on his own accord, not wholly due to D) , but got to the rim regardless.  He looked fine in those brief snap shots.  However, long term, Shane appears to have a much higher ceiling.

And he was very lucky he didn't get fouled on those drives... 45% FT Yikes!!!

[kscottbailey]

1.1 a/to ratio is awful.  Please don't use that as a talking point to hype up your boy.  I don't give a crap if it's 2nd or 3rd best on the team.  Not like it's head and shoulders above Tay's .7 ratio.  

As far as Tay pissing down his leg...he is one of 2 players to actually show up against Duke this year.

Umm... no. A 1.1 A/TO ratio is NOT "awful" on this team. It was second on the team (with Will) in-conference (which is the only time when Shane really got legit playing time). In fact, for a freshman, it's not "awful" at all. As for how Irving played against Dook, who cares? When the games got REAL (in conference), he looked and played scared.

[OregonSmock]

he's an asset on offense.

totally disagree. when teams are begging him to shoot an unguarded 15 foot jumper, and he still doesn't shoot it, tells you about all you need to know about him as a liability on offense.

also, the talking point about shane being some sort of great passer is entirely over rated. martavious had a better a/to ratio.

He's only a freshman.  The Morris twins couldn't hit the broad side of a barn their freshman year, and now they're two of the best big men in the country.  Give Southwell some time to get comfortable and work on his jumpshot.

[AbeFroman]

1.1 a/to ratio is awful.  Please don't use that as a talking point to hype up your boy.  I don't give a crap if it's 2nd or 3rd best on the team.  Not like it's head and shoulders above Tay's .7 ratio.  

As far as Tay pissing down his leg...he is one of 2 players to actually show up against Duke this year.

Now I know you're a troll.

[cas4ksu]

he's an asset on offense.

totally disagree. when teams are begging him to shoot an unguarded 15 foot jumper, and he still doesn't shoot it, tells you about all you need to know about him as a liability on offense.

also, the talking point about shane being some sort of great passer is entirely over rated. martavious had a better a/to ratio.

He's only a freshman.  The Morris twins couldn't hit the broad side of a barn their freshman year, and now they're two of the best big men in the country.  Give Southwell some time to get comfortable and work on his jumpshot.

Whenever Southwell gets a RSCI in the top 70 then the comparison would be worthwhile.

[kscottbailey]

he's an asset on offense.

totally disagree. when teams are begging him to shoot an unguarded 15 foot jumper, and he still doesn't shoot it, tells you about all you need to know about him as a liability on offense.

also, the talking point about shane being some sort of great passer is entirely over rated. martavious had a better a/to ratio.

He's only a freshman.  The Morris twins couldn't hit the broad side of a barn their freshman year, and now they're two of the best big men in the country.  Give Southwell some time to get comfortable and work on his jumpshot.

Whenever Southwell gets a RSCI in the top 70 then the comparison would be worthwhile.

WTF?!? What do recruiting rankings have to do with a kid's actual potential after having a decent freshman year?!?

[cas4ksu]

jesus man. recruiting rankings are a pretty solid indicator of how good player is/will become.

[kscottbailey]

jesus man. recruiting rankings are a pretty solid indicator of how good player is/will become.

Well, there's no debating THAT airtight logic. IOW, do I really need to make you a list of McDs AAs that have fallen on their faces, and 2*s that have become beasts?!?

[ednksu]

all we need to know about shane was foretold by his clutch shot at Texas under 2 min

[Winters]

Shane shoots FT's well. 

[1albatross]

Shane shoots FT's well. 

This he does.  Really has surprised me.  He also had a decent game against Utah St.

As far as comparing recruiting rankings to what has been seen on the court.  That makes no sense to me.

I may be over-critical of Shane b/c of mistakes I have seen...but I jus't don't see much potential.  I hope I am wrong and next year I am eating crow b/c he comes out and is a shutdown defender and averages 6-8 pts a game (trying to make goals attainable).  Maybe grab 4 boards a game and distribute the ball much better than this year.

[catzacker]

please don't let the DITR argument make it's way to KSU MBB.  That's all I ask.

[sys]

ft% is the best argument for optimism re. his shot.  i don't know if the fact that he throws every pass that he sees, half for assists, half for turnovers is a reason of optimism or pessimism.

[Emo EMAW]

ft% is the best argument for optimism re. his shot.  i don't know if the fact that he throws every pass that he sees, half for assists, half for turnovers is a reason of optimism or pessimism.

It's easier to teach a risk taker to be more conservative that to teach a conservative to be more reckless.  IMO.

[kscottbailey]

ft% is the best argument for optimism re. his shot.  i don't know if the fact that he throws every pass that he sees, half for assists, half for turnovers is a reason of optimism or pessimism.

It's easier to teach a risk taker to be more conservative that to teach a conservative to be more reckless.  IMO.

Also, a 1.1 A/TO ratio is indicative of someone who is making the right decision on his passes about 53% of the time, and the wrong decision about 47% of the time. Given that some TOs come from guys not being ready for a great pass, travels, etc., the good percentage is probably higher than that, but still, I can live with a freshman distributor making good passing decisions 53% of the time, which Will and Shane both did. Especially given the fact that Martavious was only making good decisions (by that scale) about 42% of the time.

[sys]

It's easier to teach a risk taker to be more conservative that to teach a conservative to be more reckless.  IMO.

yeah, could be.

[sys]

Also, a 1.1 A/TO ratio is indicative of someone who is making the right decision on his passes about 53% of the time, and the wrong decision about 47% of the time. Given that some TOs come from guys not being ready for a great pass, travels, etc., the good percentage is probably higher than that, but still, I can live with a freshman distributor making good passing decisions 53% of the time, which Will and Shane both did. Especially given the fact that Martavious was only making good decisions (by that scale) about 42% of the time.

most of southwell's turnovers came from making high-risk/high reward passes.  not true of either either spradling or irving.  my other quibble with your analysis would be that a turnover is far worse than an assist is good.

[chum1]

my other quibble with your analysis would be that a turnover is far worse than an assist is good.

how so?  isn't an assist worth more than two points and a turnover worth less than two?