Holy War

[Saulbadguy]

Everyone, everywhere conforms to basic morality. It is in us and proof that there must be something going on beyond simply our societies, etc.

People are born under morality and act as such. If I steal a man's food, he won't like it, he will feel wronged, no matter how he typically acts or feels. This is true no matter what background a person has or where they live or believe.

A big bang did not form this.

None of this is true at all.

disagree with all of this

Man is not born with morals. He's born with nothing.  

[1/64th]

obvious answer is evolution

Evolution plants in us a framework for the way we behave, even when we subtract our environment and background?

You (or anyone) can't possibly believe that.

Natural selection could definitely lead to a moral society. Communities that didn't have members killing other members of the community had a better chance of surviving than those that didn't. Therefore, morals became more likely to be passed on to future generations.

Would you at least say that it is possible that our morals come from a Creator Being that instilled a sense of right and wrong within us...known as a conscience?  

[Saulbadguy]

Everyone, everywhere conforms to basic morality. It is in us and proof that there must be something going on beyond simply our societies, etc.

People are born under morality and act as such. If I steal a man's food, he won't like it, he will feel wronged, no matter how he typically acts or feels. This is true no matter what background a person has or where they live or believe.

A big bang did not form this.

not saying the big bang formed it, but i've always had a problem with this logic.

i don't have a very good answer or response to it, i'm just very uncertain that our morals are a result of a higher being. i have NO IDEA where they come from. just seems like something that was formed in me by my childhood. (and yes, a large part of that was religion, but is the true source of my morality religion? or is it just the religious upbringing i happened to have?)

They are a result of the development of our society.  What may have been immoral 500 years ago may not be immoral now.  The "big ones", the golden rule, murder, theft, remain immoral.  

What is immoral in one society may not be in another society, even during the same time period.  

[Saulbadguy]

If God doesn't exist, neither does absolute morality.

If absolute morality does not exist, you cannot say boo to anything anyone else does that you find morally objectionable.  Think Bush is a War Criminal? So what?

You can't even criticize Hitler, as his morality is just as valid as yours.


No thanks.

This doesn't make any sense.  Please revise and repost. TIA.

[1/64th]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from?  

A mixture of our society raising them with basic premises of right and wrong and evolution ingraining empathy into our chemistry.  Sociopaths are wired differently not becuase god doesn't exist, but because that's how they were born.  

This tells me that you don't have children.  Before you can teach a child that a specific act is right or wrong, they already know that some things are right and wrong.  

Mental illness is a completely different topic, BTW.  

[steve dave]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from?  

A mixture of our society raising them with basic premises of right and wrong and evolution ingraining empathy into our chemistry.  Sociopaths are wired differently not becuase god doesn't exist, but because that's how they were born.  

This tells me that you don't have children.  Before you can teach a child that a specific act is right or wrong, they already know that some things are right and wrong.  

Mental illness is a completely different topic, BTW.  

BOOM!

[PoetWarrior]

Natural selection could definitely lead to a moral society. Communities that didn't have members killing other members of the community had a better chance of surviving than those that didn't. Therefore, morals became more likely to be passed on to future generations.

Sure, that could be true, but what matters is the origin or the morals. Not that they might get passed down.

[Saulbadguy]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Over time,  I think things could deteriorate if there was absolutely no religion whatsoever on the planet.  It wouldn't be chaotic, but would be....different.

[ew2x4]

God created us through evolution and formed the universe via the big bang. Wrap your head around that.

[michigancat]

obvious answer is evolution

Evolution plants in us a framework for the way we behave, even when we subtract our environment and background?

You (or anyone) can't possibly believe that.

Natural selection could definitely lead to a moral society. Communities that didn't have members killing other members of the community had a better chance of surviving than those that didn't. Therefore, morals became more likely to be passed on to future generations.

Would you at least say that it is possible that our morals come from a Creator Being that instilled a sense of right and wrong within us...known as a conscience?  

sure, I guess. Evolution makes a lot more sense than a spaghetti monster or whatever you're referring to, though.

[Saulbadguy]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from?  

SOCIETY!

It just happens that society is religious (overall).  

[1/64th]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from?  

A mixture of our society raising them with basic premises of right and wrong and evolution ingraining empathy into our chemistry.  Sociopaths are wired differently not becuase god doesn't exist, but because that's how they were born.  

This tells me that you don't have children.  Before you can teach a child that a specific act is right or wrong, they already know that some things are right and wrong.  

Mental illness is a completely different topic, BTW.  

BOOM!

You're playing both sides and it's not fair.  I'm taking my ball and going home.  

But for realz, I think we just disagree on where morals come from.  I believe they come from God and you believe they happened by chance or by accident.  Good discussion, fellas.

May I propose a new topic: All religions lead to the same place.  These are my favorite kind of non-commital people.  Ready.  Go.  

[PoetWarrior]

God created us through evolution and formed the universe via the big bang. Wrap your head around that.

He tells us he didn't.

[Saulbadguy]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from?  

A mixture of our society raising them with basic premises of right and wrong and evolution ingraining empathy into our chemistry.  Sociopaths are wired differently not becuase god doesn't exist, but because that's how they were born.  

This tells me that you don't have children.  Before you can teach a child that a specific act is right or wrong, they already know that some things are right and wrong.  

Mental illness is a completely different topic, BTW.  

Feral children blow this theory out of the water.

[1/64th]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from?  

A mixture of our society raising them with basic premises of right and wrong and evolution ingraining empathy into our chemistry.  Sociopaths are wired differently not becuase god doesn't exist, but because that's how they were born.  

This tells me that you don't have children.  Before you can teach a child that a specific act is right or wrong, they already know that some things are right and wrong.  

Mental illness is a completely different topic, BTW.  

Feral children blow this theory out of the water.

So then, you're completely on the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture argument?  Is that what you're saying?  So all your kid's problems are basically all your fault. 

[Saulbadguy]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable. 

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from? 

A mixture of our society raising them with basic premises of right and wrong and evolution ingraining empathy into our chemistry.  Sociopaths are wired differently not becuase god doesn't exist, but because that's how they were born. 

This tells me that you don't have children.  Before you can teach a child that a specific act is right or wrong, they already know that some things are right and wrong. 

Mental illness is a completely different topic, BTW. 

Feral children blow this theory out of the water.

So then, you're completely on the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture argument?  Is that what you're saying?  So all your kid's problems are basically all your fault. 

No, i'm not.

No, it takes a village to raise a child.

[PoetWarrior]

Many are confusing that it doesn't matter what we find to be right or wrong (murder, stealing, etc.). People differ, because there is an exact truth to be known and not everyone knows it.

But every person who has ever lived would, at the right moment, experience and have to admit to feeling righted or wronged.

Everyone may not feel that way about stealing, but they might about murder, or lying, etc. So, morals are there (basically everyone has admitted to that). Where did they originate?

I guess some really cool monkey, who taught his monkey bros.

[steve dave]

I guess some really cool monkey, who taught his monkey bros.

just like jesus of nazareth 

[PoetWarrior]

Too bad all of the monkeys left today are the dumb ones or we could talk to them and really figure things out.

[Saulbadguy]

Many are confusing that it doesn't matter what we find to be right or wrong (murder, stealing, etc.). People differ, because there is an exact truth to be known and not everyone knows it.

But every person who has ever lived would, at the right moment, experience and have to admit to feeling righted or wronged.

Everyone may not feel that way about stealing, but they might about murder, or lying, etc. So, morals are there (basically everyone has admitted to that). Where did they originate?

I guess some really cool monkey, who taught his monkey bros.

Experiment - place 100 babies, 50 male, 50 female, and have a group of caretakers care for them. They can only feed them, teach them basic skills (how to feed, cloth themselves), and nothing else.

As long as they don't kill each other first, a society will develop and so will a moral code.

[ew2x4]

God created us through evolution and formed the universe via the big bang. Wrap your head around that.

He tells us he didn't.

He said He created us in His image. He did not discuss the point A to point B process.

As for creation of the universe, what is more divine than a thunderous explosion and instant creation?

Prove this wrong. and if you think it took God 6 human earth days to create everything, think again. God is timeless. He doesn't create according to our clock and calendar. Especially when the Earth was not even created it yet.

[PoetWarrior]

Experiment - place 100 babies, 50 male, 50 female, and have a group of caretakers care for them. They can only feed them, teach them basic skills (how to feed, cloth themselves), and nothing else.

As long as they don't kill each other first, a society will develop and so will a moral code.

Exactly right, because they had morals the moment they opened their eyes. What this society will need, however, is the exact, absolute truth God created, otherwise they'll be as lost as any other society. (This is where beliefs toward, murder, adultery, stealing, etc. come in)

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

I think one thing that is missing from this debate about morals is what people do when nobody is around. It is easy to be moral and do the right thing when you are in a social setting, but what about when nobody is looking? The idea that a being of some type is always aware of what you are doing, and the possibility of a judgment day, will keep a person from straying down the wrong path. This is where religion and true believers have the advantage over innate moral beliefs. 

[Cire]

With no religion morals would be set by the biggest strongest guy that killed the most people to achieve his position.

[CNS]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from?  

A mixture of our society raising them with basic premises of right and wrong and evolution ingraining empathy into our chemistry.  Sociopaths are wired differently not becuase god doesn't exist, but because that's how they were born.  

This tells me that you don't have children.  Before you can teach a child that a specific act is right or wrong, they already know that some things are right and wrong.  

Mental illness is a completely different topic, BTW.  

They know because they recognize how another feels based off of how they would feel.  Empathy is a good start on this as mentioned above.

You don't need the threat of eternal damnation to understand that you don't want someone sleeping with your wife, stealing your food/money/home, beating your ass, etc.  Understanding that you don't want it to happen to you makes it an easy step to understand that others wouldn't want it either.  

Religion just puts a threat behind the morality most have anyway.  

The problem with religion is it also provides absolution to rough ridin' up either through donations, confession, attending church, accepting JC, etc.  If the religious were truly concerned with morals, absolution wouldn't exist.  Absolution is simply a way to keep an individual in the fold, under your control, and donating through telling them that they can still be safe from their religion's threats.