Holy War

[steve dave]

Everyone, everywhere conforms to basic morality. It is in us and proof that there must be something going on beyond simply our societies, etc.

People are born under morality and act as such. If I steal a man's food, he won't like it, he will feel wronged, no matter how he typically acts or feels. This is true no matter what background a person has or where they live or believe.

A big bang did not form this.

None of this is true at all.

disagree with all of this

['taterblast]

Everyone, everywhere conforms to basic morality. It is in us and proof that there must be something going on beyond simply our societies, etc.

People are born under morality and act as such. If I steal a man's food, he won't like it, he will feel wronged, no matter how he typically acts or feels. This is true no matter what background a person has or where they live or believe.

A big bang did not form this.

not saying the big bang formed it, but i've always had a problem with this logic.

i don't have a very good answer or response to it, i'm just very uncertain that our morals are a result of a higher being. i have NO IDEA where they come from. just seems like something that was formed in me by my childhood. (and yes, a large part of that was religion, but is the true source of my morality religion? or is it just the religious upbringing i happened to have?)

[CNS]

I am, and have always been, the most morale of those I hang with.  However, I am not religious at all. 

Anyone who is able to analyse their own self and apply outwardly can be morale.  Don't need some d00d in a funny hat and dress telling you what to do, how much money to give him, and who to hate.

[steve dave]

Everyone, everywhere conforms to basic morality. It is in us and proof that there must be something going on beyond simply our societies, etc.

People are born under morality and act as such. If I steal a man's food, he won't like it, he will feel wronged, no matter how he typically acts or feels. This is true no matter what background a person has or where they live or believe.

A big bang did not form this.

not saying the big bang formed it, but i've always had a problem with this logic.

i don't have a very good answer or response to it, i'm just very uncertain that our morals are a result of a higher being. i have NO IDEA where they come from. just seems like something that was formed in me by my childhood. (and yes, a large part of that was religion, but is the true source of my morality religion? or is it just the religious upbringing i happened to have?)

obvious answer is evolution

['taterblast]

probably so.

i guess?

[the KHAN!]

If you want to get philosophical, try reading "Confessions" by Augustine (a saint if you're catholic).

Very interesting read. I don't agree with all of it, but a lot of it is interesting.

[steve dave]

probably so.

i guess?

empathy is an excellent survival tool for social animals

[1/64th]

For religion. Without it our society would be very drab and utilitarian.  Or chaotic.  Not sure which, don't want to find out.

This is true.

Maybe.  Hard to say for sure.

yeah but the basic premise of the major religions is to follow the rules and be nice to people and stuff.

Morality wouldn't change if religion didn't exist. 

Could not disagree with you more on this point.  Well, that is to say that you equate religion with God.  Would you say that Morality wouldn't change if God didn't exist? 

[DQ12]

Everyone, everywhere conforms to basic morality. It is in us and proof that there must be something going on beyond simply our societies, etc.

People are born under morality and act as such. If I steal a man's food, he won't like it, he will feel wronged, no matter how he typically acts or feels. This is true no matter what background a person has or where they live or believe.

A big bang did not form this.

not saying the big bang formed it, but i've always had a problem with this logic.

i don't have a very good answer or response to it, i'm just very uncertain that our morals are a result of a higher being. i have NO IDEA where they come from. just seems like something that was formed in me by my childhood. (and yes, a large part of that was religion, but is the true source of my morality religion? or is it just the religious upbringing i happened to have?)

I read an article last night that was pretty interesting talking about this subject:

You Christians, if the transmission in your Camaro explodes, are you going to use prayer to reconstruct it? No, you'll call a mechanic. When your tooth hurts, you don't assume it's possessed by demons. You look for a cavity. Basic, everyday troubleshooting.

Well, at the very worst, the atheists are just applying the same common sense, real-world troubleshooting to the God question. At the creation of the universe and in the heart of mankind, they expect to find the same physical, tangible answers they'd find inside a burnt transmission. If they're wrong about God, they're only wrong in that they've taken the tried-and-true troubleshooting we all practice one step too far.

On the other hand...

Atheists, even if you reject the idea of God completely and claim to live according only to the cold logic of the physical sciences, you all still live as if the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true.

When some guy hustles you out of eighty bucks in an ebay scam, you don't nod and say, "Interesting! This fellow lacks the genetic predisposition toward equitable dealing that generations of sexual selection in favor of social behavior has instilled in the rest of us! A fascinating difference!"

No, you think what that guy did was wrong. You want justice. You think he should have acted differently.

Even though there's no "wrong" molecule floating in the air and there's no "justice" element on the Periodic Table. You don't think of the swindler as just a fellow animal who happens to behave differently than you. You think he should have acted some other way, according to an invisible ideal that everybody is aware of and knows they should obey.

When that "boob at the Super Bowl" incident happened a while back, I constantly heard atheists making fun of Christians and their puritan silliness over sex. "Come on! It's just meat! We're all just mammals! Sex is natural! What are you afraid of?!?!?"

Yet, the moment you find out that while you were on vacation, your girl got drunk and slept with the entire Chicago Bears...Suddenly sex is something to get upset about. Suddenly it's not just meat slapping against meat. Suddenly the exclusive sexual bond between you and your girl was important, was to be protected, was almost... sacred.

Again there's this invisible rule that was supposed to be followed, that everybody was supposed to be aware of, that can't be proven by logic. Whatever it is, wherever you think it came from, you can't deny that it's there. Your own behavior would make you a liar.

Well, at the very worst, the Christians are just taking that same moral impulse and applying it to the God question. At the creation of the universe, they expect to find the same invisible hand that pushes us to be fair and loyal and kind. If they're wrong about God, they're only wrong in that they've taken that absolute morality and put a face on it, made an idol out of it. Taken it one step too far.

You think of it that way, and the amount of overlap between the two of us is actually pretty striking. Right?
Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on_p2.html#ixzz1FHVSrZ67

[steve dave]

For religion. Without it our society would be very drab and utilitarian.  Or chaotic.  Not sure which, don't want to find out.

This is true.

Maybe.  Hard to say for sure.

yeah but the basic premise of the major religions is to follow the rules and be nice to people and stuff.

Morality wouldn't change if religion didn't exist. 

Could not disagree with you more on this point.  Well, that is to say that you equate religion with God.  Would you say that Morality wouldn't change if God didn't exist? 

That's exactly what I'm saying (and what a lot of people believe is already the case)

[the KHAN!]

If God doesn't exist, neither does absolute morality.

If absolute morality does not exist, you cannot say boo to anything anyone else does that you find morally objectionable.  Think Bush is a War Criminal? So what?

You can't even criticize Hitler, as his morality is just as valid as yours.


No thanks.

[steve dave]

If God doesn't exist, neither does absolute morality.

If absolute morality does not exist, you cannot say boo to anything anyone else does that you find morally objectionable.  Think Bush is a War Criminal? So what?

You can't even criticize Hitler, as his morality is just as valid as yours.


No thanks.

A lot of dumbasses are confusing laws and morals in this thread

[the KHAN!]

If God doesn't exist, neither does absolute morality.

If absolute morality does not exist, you cannot say boo to anything anyone else does that you find morally objectionable.  Think Bush is a War Criminal? So what?

You can't even criticize Hitler, as his morality is just as valid as yours.


No thanks.

A lot of dumbasses are confusing laws and morals in this thread

OK, just morals then.

Please tell me how Hitler is a bad guy under the Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) idea of relative morality. Please. I'm rough ridin' overjoyed to hear this crap.

[1/64th]

For religion. Without it our society would be very drab and utilitarian.  Or chaotic.  Not sure which, don't want to find out.

This is true.

Maybe.  Hard to say for sure.

yeah but the basic premise of the major religions is to follow the rules and be nice to people and stuff.

Morality wouldn't change if religion didn't exist. 

Could not disagree with you more on this point.  Well, that is to say that you equate religion with God.  Would you say that Morality wouldn't change if God didn't exist? 

That's exactly what I'm saying (and what a lot of people believe is already the case)

IMO, for there to be morals there must be right and wrong.  For there to be right and wrong there must be absolute truth.  So who gets to say what is true/right and what is wrong/bad.  I say the one who gets to decide this is the one that made everything.  I believe that God made everything and therefore gets to set the rules.  If no one or nothing made all this and we just happened to explode into the evolutionary process one day, then there is no truth, no right, no wrong and thus no morality.  If I didn't believe in God, I would not be a "moral" person at all because I would have no reason to be.  

[OK_Cat]

there doesn't have to be a god to know that stealing somebody's eggo waffles is a pretty dick move.

[the KHAN!]

there doesn't have to be a god to know that stealing somebody's eggo waffles is a pretty dick move.

Not in Spartan Society.

That would be something GOOD for a young man to do.

[PoetWarrior]

i'm just very uncertain that our morals are a result of a higher being. i have NO IDEA where they come from.

Look into it.

obvious answer is evolution

Evolution plants in us a framework for the way we behave, even when we subtract our environment and background?

You (or anyone) can't possibly believe that.

[steve dave]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

[the KHAN!]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

You know what's laughable.

You. Avoiding hard questions.

[OK_Cat]

there doesn't have to be a god to know that stealing somebody's eggo waffles is a pretty dick move.

Not in Spartan Society.

That would be something GOOD for a young man to do.

don't be a dumbass.  people that don't believe in god let people steal their crap because they are confused about how to respond.

you are taught right vs. wrong by your parents/family, not because of religion.

[the KHAN!]

there doesn't have to be a god to know that stealing somebody's eggo waffles is a pretty dick move.

Not in Spartan Society.

That would be something GOOD for a young man to do.

don't be a dumbass.  people that don't believe in god let people steal their crap because they are confused about how to respond.

you are taught right vs. wrong by your parents/family, not because of religion.

You really don't understand that there are multiple cultures on this planet right? I mean, that's the only way you'd think my point was just me being a dumbass.

Stealing is not a "dick move" to every group on this planet, and I pointed such a group out. Don't be so butthurt.

[michigancat]

obvious answer is evolution

Evolution plants in us a framework for the way we behave, even when we subtract our environment and background?

You (or anyone) can't possibly believe that.

Natural selection could definitely lead to a moral society. Communities that didn't have members killing other members of the community had a better chance of surviving than those that didn't. Therefore, morals became more likely to be passed on to future generations.

[steve dave]

obvious answer is evolution

Evolution plants in us a framework for the way we behave, even when we subtract our environment and background?

You (or anyone) can't possibly believe that.

Natural selection could definitely lead to a moral society. Communities that didn't have members killing other members of the community had a better chance of surviving than those that didn't. Therefore, morals became more likely to be passed on to future generations.

humans, chimps and some high level apes have empathy.  it's pretty great for us. 

[1/64th]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from? 

[steve dave]

every atheist/agnostic I know has morals.  the fact that some of you don't believe you would have them if you weren't religious is laughable.  

Why do they have morals?  Why be a good person?  Where does their sense of right and wrong come from?  

A mixture of our society raising them with basic premises of right and wrong and evolution ingraining empathy into our chemistry.  Sociopaths are wired differently not becuase god doesn't exist, but because that's how they were born.