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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: Kat Kid on December 09, 2012, 10:56:39 AM
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TL;DR: Straight to the Bottom
I was reading the "cupboard bare" thread and realized something about our modes of communication in discussing Frank/Currie/oscar. There are publicly available stats, as well as largely agreed upon facts in what lead to the demise of Frank Martin's tenure at Kansas State and oscar's selection as our next Basketball coach by John Currie. Despite the basic outlines of a discussion being largely beyond argument, nearly everyone has adopted a narrative that fits in to an identifiable mold that limits the ability of these people to accept arguments that counter their conclusions on a number of issues. Essentially there are limits to what these party members are willing to accept, even in the face of empirical data. We have essentially turned our discussions into ideological sparring matches with two camps trolling each other: the Frank Martin loyalists and the Currie/oscar Revolutionaries.
This party identity has harmed discussion of Kansas State basketball through
1) The establishment of general rules of discourse for party members
2) The policing of rhetoric along the parties' ideological boundaries
3) Quick rejection of arguments that rely on any assumptions or empirical facts counter to a party's own ideology
4) A preference for only truly discussing K-State basketball within an ideological "safe zone"
I won't go through the endless examples of these ideologies in practice. Those of us that enjoy this board have been inundated with this on-going case study. But I would like to issue some ideological challenges to each group:
Frank Loyalists:
Is it possible that Frank had lost enough of the team to seriously jeopardize the path going forward?
What value do you put on the image of a program? Did Frank compromise that? Will oscar improve it?
Think long and hard about what your vision is for K-State's Basketball program. What benchmarks do you have for progress?
Now compare those benchmarks to other Big 12 programs: who would have been fired based upon that criteria?
Would K-State be better off with your vocal support, then vocal criticism or with what you are doing now? If you feel like you are being fed propaganda, what would be the most effective response?
Would Frank's record at South Carolina and beyond inform any of your positions going forward? What would it say if he was a success? A failure? Had problems with professionalism/players leaving?
At what point will oscar be given credit for his successes and be responsible for his failures?
Currie/oscar Revolutionaries:
What could Currie have done to keep Frank Martin?
Do you understand why people are disappointed with oscar's hiring?
Think long and hard about what your vision is for K-State's Basketball program. What benchmarks do you have for progress
What value do you place upon program visibility? How will we measure Frank's absence, how does oscar compensate?
At what point will oscar be given credit for his successes and be responsible for his failures?
My hope is not to have everything devolve in to Frank/Currie/oscar or to re-litigate our shared history and differing conclusions. Rather, I wish people would openly adopt these party identifications or seek to defeat them; one or the other. If people adopted these ideological limitations, then at least they could be upfront about them and accept that they are self-limiting before they attempt to engage in ideological battle on the Basketball board. For those of us that would like to actually discuss the team on its own merits without wading in to the midst of the battlefield, this would be a nice warning and a helpful reminder so that we could appropriately translate the post by someone in to reality.
But my hope would be that people would choose to reject this binary assessment of K-State fandom. I would instead encourage people to leave the comfort of this prism and find their own path. There are a number of resources available to help yourself make arguments about college basketball. In fact, I've compiled a short list:
K-State Sports.com (http://www.kstatesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/sched/ksu-m-baskbl-sched.html)- box scores for every game! Season stats! Historical data from the Frank years!
StatSheet.com (http://statsheet.com/mcb) Is freshman Will better than Angel? Are players really worse this year? Well, let's look at some stats! TOGETHER!
2013 P66 Tourney Bracket! (http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205573450) No Wednesday's (formerly known as No Thursdays!)!
As if this wasn't a long enough post, I would like to take a moment to praise an example of discourse by some fire breathers.
http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=25111.msg688311#msg688311 (http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=25111.msg688311#msg688311)
Frank left behind a 5th place Big 12 team, that beat a C-USA team in the 1st round in the NCAA tourney.
yes. minimum expectations are to repeat last year. minimum. since we weren't that good last year, this should not be hard. 8 seed and one tourney win. anything less should be unacceptable.
Great posts here. Dax (an iconoclast if there ever was one) brings forward an empirical fact that challenges an assumption made by some Frank loyalists.
Assumption: "we are a Sweet 16 team this year, we are underperforming"
Dax does this by reminding them of the actual achievements of last year's team. daris brings an expectation from the Loyalist camp that progress should be made due to the preponderance of minutes returning, but does so in a way that encourages further empirical discussion. Great discussion guys! Good job!
The views that are largely representative of goEMAW (loved Frank/hated Currie/hates oscar) are not representative of the typical K-Stater. So the discussions here are not going to prepare you for the minefield of attempting to actually discuss sports with the typical fan, but it is a step in the right direction for our own purposes.
TL;DR: We've moved in to ideological camps regarding Frank/Currie/oscar. This shift resembles the formation of political parties which I've termed: the Frank Martin Loyalists and the Currie Revolutionaries. This has had terrible consequences for rational thought and discussion of K-State hoops. Maybe we should examine this arrangement.
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Outstanding post, KK. Wow.
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#Gottlieb4KSU
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
Damn, really? :frown:
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
:lol:
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
I voted for Johnson. Can 'lieb'rs be him?
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
Is this the party for folks who recognize there were issues with Frank and are mainly pissed about how Currie handled everything in that magical two weeks between the trash can and the dawn of Bruceketball?
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What about those of us that aren't loyal to Frank and think he has reached his ceiling and probably had to go due to the alleged team issues, but think Currie is an incompetent AD who didn't even go through an actual hiring process and hired an incompetent coach?
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
Is this the party for folks who recognize there were issues with Frank and are mainly pissed about how Currie handled everything in that magical two weeks between the trash can and the dawn of Bruceketball?
One issue parties for one issue voters I guess.
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good post kk :thumbs:
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I identify myself as someone who thinks Frank probably reached his ceiling but still think Currie mumped up big time and oscar is a tremendous dork who won't succeed here. I'm gonna try and answer just this question for now:
At what point will oscar be given credit for his successes and be responsible for his failures?
Frank gave us fans an identity and sense of belonging to the program by injecting a very modern, anti-kstate0 personality to it, hence the massive loyalty towards him on here. KSU has been dominated by tucks and dumbass admins running crap into the ground via naivete and good ol' boy networking for years on end. So as Prince ran football into the ground and Snyder muddled around building the program back up, Frank was goEMAW's outlet for significant entertainment, warts (bad recruiting, losing to crap teams while teaching players a "lesson") and all. Basketball was OUR sport, OUR program, and now it feels like the 'tucks have taken back over and are perfectly fine with plunging the program back into the subterranean Wooly years where fun and accountability were absent.
So that all said, it's blatantly obvious at which the threshold oscar will be accepted here is extremely high in comparison to Frank or just about any other coach. I think if he replicates Frank's level of success he won't be liked here, but calls for him to be fired will be muted at most. If he has us consistently going to Sweet 16's and Elite 8's even after his recruits are in, I think people might warm up to him a bit. If we get to a Final Four AND sustain success afterwards, he'll definitely be accepted and maybe even loved for all his dorkisms. Anything below Frank's standard will be met with derision, scorn, and calls for a change in leadership.
jmo.
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So do us independents get questions to answer?
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I identify myself as someone who thinks Frank probably reached his ceiling but still think Currie mumped up big time and oscar is a tremendous dork who won't succeed here.
Seems like this party is in command.
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
Is this the party for folks who recognize there were issues with Frank and are mainly pissed about how Currie handled everything in that magical two weeks between the trash can and the dawn of Bruceketball?
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
Is this the party for folks who recognize there were issues with Frank and are mainly pissed about how Currie handled everything in that magical two weeks between the trash can and the dawn of Bruceketball?
Pretty sure I still have my #gottlieb4ksu headband somewhere.
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I do not fit into either of your parties.
Frank Martin needed to go. His schtick was getting old, with the fans AND players AND recruits, and the program was trending downward. I'm glad he decided to commit professional suicide by taking the job at South Carolina because I think the inevitable flameout here was going to be spectactularly bad for K-State.
I absolutely do not think that oscar was the right hire and I firmly believe he will finish the process of leading us into obscurity before he he leaves here. I think Currie's goal was to hire someone that would have success this year, and that Currie would be gone to another job before oscar's program here turned to crap the same way it did at Illinois.
I therefore declare myself to be an Independent. I will not vote along party lines and I will take advantage of the opportunity to freely bash people on both sides of the aisle.
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Frank Loyalists:
Is it possible that Frank had lost enough of the team to seriously jeopardize the path going forward?
no. jo might have wanted to leave, but he was a sr to be, and not good enough to be drafted last year. art didn't want to leave. mcgruder didn't want to leave. no one else is good enough to matter.
What value do you put on the image of a program? Did Frank compromise that? Will oscar improve it?
lots. no, he was a huge enhancement to kstate bball's image. no, even people that like him think he's a dumbass.
Think long and hard about what your vision is for K-State's Basketball program. What benchmarks do you have for progress?
be as good as it can be. progress is the wrong word. martin had the program achieving a level of success that was probably unsustainable for a program of kstate's stature. would have liked to see if it could have been sustained though.
Now compare those benchmarks to other Big 12 programs: who would have been fired based upon that criteria?
don't understand the question. you're asking what other big 12 coaches should be fired? who gives a eff?
Would K-State be better off with your vocal support, then vocal criticism or with what you are doing now? If you feel like you are being fed propaganda, what would be the most effective response?
kstate is unaffected either way. my most effective response would be to assassinate currie, but i'm scared i would be caught. also, not completely sure i could kill another human in cold blood
Would Frank's record at South Carolina and beyond inform any of your positions going forward? What would it say if he was a success? A failure? Had problems with professionalism/players leaving?
yes, course. it would further confirm his ability as a coach. it would cast some doubt on his ability as a coach. it would mean nothing independent of success or failure.
At what point will oscar be given credit for his successes and be responsible for his failures?
credit for success in the year following art, whenever that may be. failure immediately.
by the way, i hate the people that ramble on about martin's ceiling or denigrating kstate's achievements over the last six years as much, if not more, than standard tucks. it is incredible to me that people have forgotten how difficult it is to make the tournament over such a short period of time. that they don't understand how good even bad tournament teams are. the reason currie should be fired/killed is because martin was a better coach than kstate bball coach is a job. if martin had reached a ceiling, bfd. that ceiling was higher than kstate bball's natural place in the world. we allowed something common to chase away something rare, and we deserve every loss, every humiliation, every frustration that we will reap from that negligence.
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it isn't hard to make the tournament
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I identify myself as someone who thinks Frank probably reached his ceiling but still think Currie mumped up big time and oscar is a tremendous dork who won't succeed here. I'm gonna try and answer just this question for now:
At what point will oscar be given credit for his successes and be responsible for his failures?
Frank gave us fans an identity and sense of belonging to the program by injecting a very modern, anti-kstate0 personality to it, hence the massive loyalty towards him on here. KSU has been dominated by tucks and dumbass admins running crap into the ground via naivete and good ol' boy networking for years on end. So as Prince ran football into the ground and Snyder muddled around building the program back up, Frank was goEMAW's outlet for significant entertainment, warts (bad recruiting, losing to crap teams while teaching players a "lesson") and all. Basketball was OUR sport, OUR program, and now it feels like the 'tucks have taken back over and are perfectly fine with plunging the program back into the subterranean Wooly years where fun and accountability were absent.
So that all said, it's blatantly obvious at which the threshold oscar will be accepted here is extremely high in comparison to Frank or just about any other coach. I think if he replicates Frank's level of success he won't be liked here, but calls for him to be fired will be muted at most. If he has us consistently going to Sweet 16's and Elite 8's even after his recruits are in, I think people might warm up to him a bit. If we get to a Final Four AND sustain success afterwards, he'll definitely be accepted and maybe even loved for all his dorkisms. Anything below Frank's standard will be met with derision, scorn, and calls for a change in leadership.
jmo.
don't be ridiculous, he will absolutely be widely accepted if the next five years look like the last five. ie-ncaa tournament 4/5 years. deep run one of those years. winning conf record every single year. beat ku a few times. i'd love him if he can do that. that would be great.
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#Gottlieb4KSU
Ron Paul.
Is this the party for folks who recognize there were issues with Frank and are mainly pissed about how Currie handled everything in that magical two weeks between the trash can and the dawn of Bruceketball?
Pretty sure I still have my #gottlieb4ksu headband somewhere.
Mines still hanging on my wall in my room.
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Frank Loyalists:
Is it possible that Frank had lost enough of the team to seriously jeopardize the path going forward?
no. jo might have wanted to leave, but he was a sr to be, and not good enough to be drafted last year. art didn't want to leave. mcgruder didn't want to leave. no one else is good enough to matter.
What value do you put on the image of a program? Did Frank compromise that? Will oscar improve it?
lots. no, he was a huge enhancement to kstate bball's image. no, even people that like him think he's a dumbass.
Think long and hard about what your vision is for K-State's Basketball program. What benchmarks do you have for progress?
be as good as it can be. progress is the wrong word. martin had the program achieving a level of success that was probably unsustainable for a program of kstate's stature. would have liked to see if it could have been sustained though.
Now compare those benchmarks to other Big 12 programs: who would have been fired based upon that criteria?
don't understand the question. you're asking what other big 12 coaches should be fired? who gives a eff?
Would K-State be better off with your vocal support, then vocal criticism or with what you are doing now? If you feel like you are being fed propaganda, what would be the most effective response?
kstate is unaffected either way. my most effective response would be to assassinate currie, but i'm scared i would be caught. also, not completely sure i could kill another human in cold blood
Would Frank's record at South Carolina and beyond inform any of your positions going forward? What would it say if he was a success? A failure? Had problems with professionalism/players leaving?
yes, course. it would further confirm his ability as a coach. it would cast some doubt on his ability as a coach. it would mean nothing independent of success or failure.
At what point will oscar be given credit for his successes and be responsible for his failures?
credit for success in the year following art, whenever that may be. failure immediately.
by the way, i hate the people that ramble on about martin's ceiling or denigrating kstate's achievements over the last six years as much, if not more, than standard tucks. it is incredible to me that people have forgotten how difficult it is to make the tournament over such a short period of time. that they don't understand how good even bad tournament teams are. the reason currie should be fired/killed is because martin was a better coach than kstate bball coach is a job. if martin had reached a ceiling, bfd. that ceiling was higher than kstate bball's natural place in the world. we allowed something common to chase away something rare, and we deserve every loss, every humiliation, every frustration that we will reap from that negligence.
If Currie had conducted and actual coaching search and hired someone that you felt could sustain the level of success Frank had attained (clearly he's incapable of this as he is a complete asshat, but go along with me here), where would you be now?
The important thing here is that we are all on #teamfirecurrie.
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I think sys nailed this. I guess some people don't enjoy winning games and playing in the NCAA tournament as much as others.
I mean, you can go back and talk about how godd KSU was in the 70s and 80s but times have changed and it reminds me of Nebraska fans. About the only thing KSU offers a coach above the fact its a BCS job is that the fans care and will show up if you are anywhere near good.
Also, I much prefer the term Frankite to Frank Loyalist: it has some historical meaning (Woolite) and is easier and faster to type.
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I hate the oscar hire. I will love him if he is successful. Nothing in his history or the start of this season makes me think he will be. This makes me sad. Go 'cats!
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Yeah, I will totally admit I was wrong if oscar wins at a high level(E8, finish within 2 games of Big 12 title) this year. If wins at at all(makes the NCAA) when Angel is gone I will begrudgingly admit he did much better than I thought but will try to give credit to EMAW's positive effect.
I am a complete slut for winning and if oscar wins I may even begin to tolerate the sound of his voice.
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Not only were we above our traditional place, but Frank hadn't done anything to deserve being ran off. He supposedly "lost the team", as he did Jake's senior year before ripping off a bunch of wins. eff "losing the team." He won. Every year. If he stops winning and "loses the team" then light the torches and gather the pitchforks, but we can't run off our only consistently winning coach because Currie/Sprads start rumors. Its a lot easier to recruit a mediocre guard or hire an AD at K-State than a winning basketball coach, as the stupid rough ridin' oscar hire proves.
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don't be ridiculous, he will absolutely be widely accepted if the next five years look like the last five. ie-ncaa tournament 4/5 years. deep run one of those years. winning conf record every single year. beat ku a few times. i'd love him if he can do that. that would be great.
Well, I consider you to be fairly representative of the Frankite faction so perhaps I overestimated the oscar hatred.
Not only were we above our traditional place, but Frank hadn't done anything to deserve being ran off. He supposedly "lost the team", as he did Jake's senior year before ripping off a bunch of wins. eff "losing the team." He won. Every year. If he stops winning and "loses the team" then light the torches and gather the pitchforks, but we can't run off our only consistently winning coach because Currie/Sprads start rumors. Its a lot easier to recruit a mediocre guard or hire an AD at K-State than a winning basketball coach, as the stupid rough ridin' oscar hire proves.
I don't know how much of the "lost the team" rumors to believe, but that's not why I feel like Frank peaked. Recruiting kept getting thinner over time and that was going to be a big potential problem. That said, I would've been fine with keeping Frank for many of the reasons you and others have listed and only would've been ok with replacing him if we could've gotten a home run hire. With the BTF that should've been possible, but it wasn't because Currie's a control freak.
It's possible to think Frank peaked but have a nuanced approach about it. It's not like all of us who thought he hit his ceiling wanted him gone because of that.
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The thinner recruiting is the same as the "lost the team" to me. If its an issue, I think Frank has earned the right to let it manifest itself. I think it is quite possible Frank peaked, but we don't know. He did nothing but win here. I feel like this is exactly where KU was when Mangino left. I am afraid that both schools will have similar results to live with.
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The thinner recruiting is the same as the "lost the team" to me. If its an issue, I think Frank has earned the right to let it manifest itself. I think it is quite possible Frank peaked, but we don't know. He did nothing but win here. I feel like this is exactly where KU was when Mangino left. I am afraid that both schools will have similar results to live with.
I doubt we go winless in conference.
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The thinner recruiting is the same as the "lost the team" to me. If its an issue, I think Frank has earned the right to let it manifest itself. I think it is quite possible Frank peaked, but we don't know. He did nothing but win here. I feel like this is exactly where KU was when Mangino left. I am afraid that both schools will have similar results to live with.
I doubt we go winless in conference.
Yea. KU set the mark pretty high on that. But in general, destroying a potential blossoming program.
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Posters need to be tagged with a label of their ideological BB standing so we can know what they are probably saying before reading their posts.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.qkme.me%2F3571m2.jpg&hash=85520c002b15e2e83901544c524909b5574c792a)
Seriously, am I the only who can find Weber's actual record online? I can't be.
Even if you thow out his first two years at Illinois, he's had a solid career. He built Southern Illnois and then he rebuilt Illinois with his own players after Self's team graduated. Yeah, he did have two losing seasons in conference, but he's had lots more winning season. I just can't wrap my mind around this idea this was a train-wreck hire... So I guess that makes me a Revolutionary. Cool.
Am I liking what I see out of the team this year? No, no I'm not. (We're 7-1, but I worry we can't hang with Gonzaga or Florida.) If Rod gets untracked, there's a chance we can turn things around in conference. But I can't blame Weber completely for Rod being Rod. He's an above-average player, but dude looks seriously depressed, and he's always had that tendency.
P.S. Really fantastic post KK.
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I agree that Frank earned the right to manifest losing the team or bad recruiting. I think Frank understands power and manipulation. He may have burnt some bridges but with the new facilities and a good record, especially with transfers, to point to I firmly believe that he would have found a way around burnt bridges to new bridges to other recruiting.
The absolute only thing that would make getting rid of Frank ok in my opinion is if the NCAA contacted Currie and showed him proof that would have severely, like more than suspensions, damaged our program for in a significant way and Currie talked them out of hit and showed that he was solving the problem by getting rid of Frank. That said, nothing visible points to this other than some cryptic posts by CC that never revealed anything and it's not realistic to think that the NCAA would slow it's roll without someone at least getting publicly called out rather than allowing parties to go separate ways with no repercussions. so, it's obvious this didn't happen and the fact that some involved have inferred that something troubling was brewing pisses me off more as does the recurring theme of kicking dirt on frank rather than just talking up oscar.
I also fully agree with the post that noted that basketball was ours. It really felt like that. It no longer does. I know a lot of that is my personal anger, but jesus the OOD is not the OOD anymore(at least not yet) and if oscar is truly something to get excited about, I just don't understand how that building and that crowd went from 100mph to speed bump in one off season.
crap hurts. I honestly still am having a hard time wrapping myself around this for the future.
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The remnants of Frank leaving, the role of Currie, and the hire of oscar Weber will have long term ramifications on goEMAW basketball discussion, at least through this season and probably longer.
I don't think oscar is as bad as he's been made out to be, I said that a long time. But I also can't ignore the things that are concerns, namely the way he lost a team last year that by all measures looks to be a very good basketball team this year. And the way that he is struggling with a decent (but not great) group of players that he inherited, especially a real inability to make shots.
My expectations for this team are unchanged; upper half finish and an NCAA tournament win. I will continue to look at the play on the court and the corresponding numbers for what they are, and right now I won't deny that there are plenty of concerns with this team. However, I also realize that these players are used to yearly roller coaster rides and with a new coach trying to do some different things I'm not surprised we're still seeing some of that. I look forward to the next two Saturdays against Top 10 opponents to see how this team will respond. And I look forward to January basketball and this team having not just those two games, but a long stretch of practices without classes that will be a real chance for this team to come together.
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sys :emawkid:
He is ignorant as crap when it comes to OSU but he killed it here
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martin was a better coach than kstate bball coach is a job. if martin had reached a ceiling, bfd. that ceiling was higher than kstate bball's natural place in the world. we allowed something common to chase away something rare
Great comment.
sys :emawkid:
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John Currie is the bad guy. Never forget
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Frank Loyalists:
Is it possible that Frank had lost enough of the team to seriously jeopardize the path going forward?
No, you're the victim of a great PR campaign by Currie, the Spradlings, and Suther. Do I think Frank was a dick to players? Yes. Was he he always a dick to players not named Bill or Beasley? Yes.
As for the recruiting jeopardizing the team, again, you're the victim of the Suther campaign. 2011 was easily his best crop of non-DCA freshmen, and Upshaw was his most impressive recruiting victory he'd ever had. If you need further evidence that recruiting wasn't dead in the water, just look at a couple of his commitments at USC:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/kansasstate/basketball/recruiting/player-Sindarius-Thornwell-114666;_ylt=AhXFLbW.4AhldIAPRIdceN3asJB4
http://rivals.yahoo.com/kansasstate/basketball/recruiting/player-Marcus-Stroman-132073;_ylt=As9zaMZiKmCkw16mEapGaX_asJB4
What value do you put on the image of a program? Did Frank compromise that? Will oscar improve it?
Frank enhanced our image and made us a national brand. He was on TV all the goddam time. The media loved him - notice how the anti-currie spin came from EVERYONE after Frank left. oscar will make our image worse. No one cares about us any more.
Think long and hard about what your vision is for K-State's Basketball program. What benchmarks do you have for progress?
I'd love to have what Eddie Sutton had at Oklahoma State, and although we were behind that slightly, we weren't by much. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Sutton
I was fine with Frank carrying on what he was producing for as long as we'd have him. I would like to be off the bubble every year, but I'll settle for worse every few years. I don't know, all I know is I was happy with where we were.
Now compare those benchmarks to other Big 12 programs: who would have been fired based upon that criteria?
Not sure what this means or if it's relevant. I really don't care about other programs. I think our expectations should be comparable to OU and OSU, and maybe a little higher than ISU.
Would K-State be better off with your vocal support, then vocal criticism or with what you are doing now? If you feel like you are being fed propaganda, what would be the most effective response?
What I say or think or want doesn't matter.
Would Frank's record at South Carolina and beyond inform any of your positions going forward? What would it say if he was a success? A failure? Had problems with professionalism/players leaving?
His recruiting has already shown the "his recruiting was spiraling downward" talking point was complete nonsense. Simply getting USC to an NCAA tournament before he leaves would be a clear success. Don't care about "professionalism/players leaving". Frank's gonna Frank.
At what point will oscar be given credit for his successes and be responsible for his failures?
If he fails this season, he should be given full credit for it. No credit for success until Angel's gone.
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I will give oscar credit if one of his recruits becomes the best player on the team; basically Foster = Alec Burks
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I also fully agree with the post that noted that basketball was ours. It really felt like that. It no longer does.
yeah, that was a good post. good insight.
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TL:DR, I get the idea of the classification, but where do you put people who think Currie is/was a complete rough ridin' assclown, and that Frank was a whiny bitch for leaving?
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I hate everyone not named gottlieb in this situation, fyi. No idea how good he would have been, but what a fun ride it would be.
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Excellent post Kat Kid
Just a little comment on MichCat post in this thread about expectations on Weber. Here is his post
If he fails this season, he should be given full credit for it. No credit for success until Angel's gone.
So if we are going to credit or discredit Weber based on this shouldn't we do the same for Frank? We judge Frank on 5 years??? oscar on 1??? We judge Weber on Franks boys??? We judge Frank on Huggins boys?? I'd take Huggins boys any day...Beasley, Walker, Pullen...You say no credit for success until Angel's gone. Well for Frank we shouldn't judge him until Pullen's gone, right??? Let's see ... a 5th place conference finish. OK for Weber when Angel's gone as long as we finish 5th we are good?? Right??
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I agree with that. If you are discounting any success oscar will have with frank players you have to discount any success frank had with huggins' GRCOAT. I don't think it should be discounted at all, though I don't expect him to have significant success with them anyway so it will be a non-point.
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Excellent post Kat Kid
Just a little comment on MichCat post in this thread about expectations on Weber. Here is his post
If he fails this season, he should be given full credit for it. No credit for success until Angel's gone.
So if we are going to credit or discredit Weber based on this shouldn't we do the same for Frank? We judge Frank on 5 years??? oscar on 1??? We judge Weber on Franks boys??? We judge Frank on Huggins boys?? I'd take Huggins boys any day...Beasley, Walker, Pullen...You say no credit for success until Angel's gone. Well for Frank we shouldn't judge him until Pullen's gone, right??? Let's see ... a 5th place conference finish. OK for Weber when Angel's gone as long as we finish 5th we are good?? Right??
A coach who was just fired after nine(?) seasons a comparable school should be held to a different standard than a complete unknown.
But yeah, if oscar finishes fifth, is solidly in the tourney, and wins a tourney game the year after Angel leaves, that would definitely be acceptable, assuming he hasn't mumped up before then.
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Also consider the state ofthe program when each took over.
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Also consider the state ofthe program when each took over.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but Frank inherited extremely high-flying talent. You don't have argue "the cupboard is bare now" for it to be obviously true that Frank was better set up in that way. Frank got to recruit to a school that had just signed the top recruit in the country (and some other top ones). I'd say the state of the program was at least as well set up long-term for Frank then, as it is for Weber now with the school coming off 4/5 appearances in the NCAA. (And much better set up for Frank short-term.) :dunno:
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Frank was set up better for one year of success, for sure. But not for long term success.
So I'm really going easy on oscar.
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Also consider the state ofthe program when each took over.
Yes, let's consider the state of the program and fanbase..Frank came in after a year with Huggins and 3 solid recruits. 2 were NBA types and one borderline ( Beasley, Walker, Pullen ). Sort of a goldmine for a new coach who had never coached D1 ball wouldn't you say with a fanbase ready to explode in enthusiasm and support. Would you say never a better starting point????? Compare this to Weber taking over a team that finished 5th with all the fans thinking he had a goldmine and many thinking it was an elite 8 team or better. Also consider the 5th place team that ended there because of JO playing the greatest 5 or so games of his life in 3 years and everyone thought that would be the starting point this year for him. Without JO's 5 games last year the team would have finished lower than 5 and more or less a trainwreck for fans. The question is to be answered...who is JO? The player who was here 3 years or the player that played out of his mind for 5 games? The team weber inherited was deemed to be the team that finished 5th. So far that's not the case.
Let's do what you suggested earlier compare Weber's team after Angel leaves to Martin's after Pullen left. In the meantime can we all get behind the Cat's like we were behind Martin and see if the crowd and fanbase can help the team win a few close ones!!! Go Cats!
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Frank was set up better for one year of success, for sure. But not for long term success.
So I'm really going easy on oscar.
I guess I just see the program as seeming more "sexy" and "up and coming" to a recruit being hosted by Beasley and Walker than it is to a recruit being shown banners. But I forgot about the practice facility when I wrote my original post. So, I'll change my mind and say oscar and Frank were equally well set up long-term.
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Frank was set up better for one year of success, for sure. But not for long term success.
So I'm really going easy on oscar.
I guess I just see the program as seeming more "sexy" and "up and coming" to a recruit being hosted by Beasley and Walker than it is to a recruit being shown banners. But I forgot about the practice facility when I wrote my original post. So, I'll change my mind and say oscar and Frank were equally well set up long-term.
Bill and Beasley weren't around for hosting visits. I would argue the last few years of being on TV all the time and having ESPN love us is more valuable in the long term.
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I was a KSU student during the last of the Asbury years and the beginning of Wooly. I'm well acquainted with tucks sitting on their hands watching teams sleepwalk through losses while everyone turns to the wife and talks about how great Ahearn was. Now that Frank's been run off I fear we're headed straight back to that again. I don't want to believe it, I want to believe everything changed when Huggins and Beasley and Frank and Pullen were here but the power of the K-State Tuck is very strong. Tuck Power is what keeps nice guy coaches like Neck Brace Wooly and Tan Tom here for 6 year stints. Tuck Power is why basketball programs go through 20 years of getting beat at home by KU, why football programs go through 40 years of poop fests.
Whatever party is against that, that's the one I'm on.
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Asbury was not a nice guy coach. At all. He was just a mediocre one that tanked it his final year (similar to what happened to oscar actually, but with much less talent), but he was a lot better than Wooly as far as success goes. The floor (IMO) for oscar is to be a repeat of Asbury as far as success goes.
I have no fear of ever having a Wooly era again, but I do have fear of having a bunch of Asbury/Altman eras.
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Feels good you guys: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/ :gocho:
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JFC pullen and beas weren't hugs guys.
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JFC pullen and beas weren't hugs guys.
if you are going to go this route you are also going to have to say mcgruder wasn't frank's recruit either.
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Frank took over a program that hadn't gone to the NCAA tourney for over a decade, had finished with a winning conference record just once in the past 19 years, hadn't gotten past the 1st round of the tourney in 20 years, hadn't beaten an instate rival at home in 20+ years, had to negotiate with the women's team or facilities to get practice time in, and whose attendance could be counted on one hand. His first year, his 3 of this top 5 scorers were freshman (albeit, 2 of them at the time were nba players) and 6 of the 9 top scorers were freshman.
oscar, on the other hand, is taking over a program that went to the tourney 4 out of 5 times, finished with a winning conference record each year, won a tourney game each year, made it to the elite 8, beat ku twice at home, just built brand spanking new practice facility, and created an evinronment which was labeled the OOD. In oscar's first year, he has returning 7 of his top 9 scorers, and of those 7, 5 are upperclassmen.
STFU with this idea that frank and oscar's starting points are the same. They aren't. oscar has no excuses.
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Frank took over a program that hadn't gone to the NCAA tourney for over a decade, had finished with a winning conference record just once in the past 19 years, hadn't gotten past the 1st round of the tourney in 20 years, hadn't beaten an instate rival at home in 20+ years, had to negotiate with the women's team or facilities to get practice time in, and whose attendance could be counted on one hand. His first year, his 3 of this top 5 scorers were freshman (albeit, 2 of them at the time were nba players) and 6 of the 9 top scorers were freshman.
oscar, on the other hand, is taking over a program that went to the tourney 4 out of 5 times, finished with a winning conference record each year, won a tourney game each year, made it to the elite 8, beat ku twice at home, just built brand spanking new practice facility, and created an evinronment which was labeled the OOD. In oscar's first year, he has returning 7 of his top 9 scorers, and of those 7, 5 are upperclassmen.
STFU with this idea that frank and oscar's starting points are the same. They aren't. oscar has no excuses.
Huggins' team was NCAA quality. We got screwed in 2007 by being left out. I mean, that year we finished 4th and had a better conference record than Martin's team last year. (I just realized that: the 2007 team did better in conference than Martin's team last year that Weber is inheriting.) Huggins did the heavy lifting. He put KSU back on the basketball map in terms of winning, recruiting and media coverage. Martin inherited the #1 recruit in the country. Just because the key players on this team are older doesn't make up for the vast talent disparity between Martin's first team and Weber's first team. Is McGruder's greater experience going to make him POY? No.
Frank inherited infinitely better players, period. The prior years' teams before Frank and oscar arrived actually posted similar records, although Huggins' team did better in conference. Weber inherits the practice facility and the NCAA momentum that got our team in the tourney last year despite a 5th-place finish. I don't know how you weigh the nation's #1 recruit (plus other players) against "momentum" and a building. I don't think it's a slam dunk either way.
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In any event, this back-and-forth dialectic is doing an excellent job of illustrating KK's original thesis that your views on oscar color the content of your posts.
Good job, us.
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Huggins team didn't go to the tourney because they didn't deserve to. Conference standing has nothing to do with ncaa quality. Last year we had entirely better wins than in Huggins year. It's not even close. I'm not sure you understand how the NCAA tourney picks teams.
The program frank inherited was worse than the program oscar did. Weber inherits a better program. A program that expects to win. A program who's facilities and recent history can provide some relevance in recruiting on their own. A program that has talented players who have played multiple years in major college basketball. We're returning players that have done nothing but win their entire careers here and have (at least) one year of starting and playing in major college basketball.
I'm laughing if you think that when we got Beasley that kids were just lining up to come to KSU. They weren't. EVERYONE was sayinig it wa a one hit wonder at KSU. We might win one year and then that loser coach who only got a promotion to keep one recruiting class would lose his entire career.
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the starting point thing was just kind of an afterthought. What I said originally still stands even if you don't consider the starting points.
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In any event, this back-and-forth dialectic is doing an excellent job of illustrating KK's original thesis that your views on oscar color the content of your posts.
Good job, us.
I think what's an afront to my intelligence is that I'm supposed to have a different view of what oscar Weber did at Illinois. he got rough ridin' fired for losing. what is my view supposed to be?
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Zacker is right about the expectations after Beaz. Nation wide we were mocked when hiring Frank, saying it was a panic hire to hold on to a kid that would only be here one year after which the high school coach would wet his pants.
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I love the hoops board version of michigancat so hard.
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I think what's an afront to my intelligence is that I'm supposed to have a different view of what oscar Weber did at Illinois. he got rough ridin' fired for losing. what is my view supposed to be?
Everyone says that, and then I look at this, and I'm left thinking maybe Illinois has an overinflated view of itself:
1998–99 Southern Illinois 15–12 10–8 T–5th
1999–00 Southern Illinois 20–13 12–6 3rd NIT 2nd Round
2000–01 Southern Illinois 16–14 10–8 T–4th
2001–02 Southern Illinois 28–8 14–4 T–1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2002–03 Southern Illinois 24–7 16–2 1st NCAA 1st Round
2003–04 Illinois 26–7 13–3 1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2004–05 Illinois 37–2 15–1 1st NCAA Runner–up
2005–06 Illinois 26–7 11–5 T–2nd NCAA 2nd Round
2006–07 Illinois 23–12 9–7 T–4th NCAA 1st Round
2007–08 Illinois 16–19 5–13 T–9th
2008–09 Illinois 24–10 11–7 T–2nd NCAA 1st Round
2009–10 Illinois 21–15 10–8 5th NIT Quarterfinals
2010–11 Illinois 20–14 9–9 T–4th NCAA 2nd Round
2011–12 Illinois 17–15 6–12 9th
If you throw out his 2 great years at Illinois + his 2 bad years at Illinois, you're basically staring at Frank Martin's record at KSU. Plus he absolutely crushed it at SIU. He just doesn't look like a total turd to me. :dunno:
Although he obviously reached his ceiling at Illinois and he definitely lost his team last year, so I understand why he was fired...
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I think what's an afront to my intelligence is that I'm supposed to have a different view of what oscar Weber did at Illinois. he got rough ridin' fired for losing. what is my view supposed to be?
Everyone says that, and then I look at this, and I'm left thinking maybe Illinois has an overinflated view of itself:
1998–99 Southern Illinois 15–12 10–8 T–5th
1999–00 Southern Illinois 20–13 12–6 3rd NIT 2nd Round
2000–01 Southern Illinois 16–14 10–8 T–4th
2001–02 Southern Illinois 28–8 14–4 T–1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2002–03 Southern Illinois 24–7 16–2 1st NCAA 1st Round
2003–04 Illinois 26–7 13–3 1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2004–05 Illinois 37–2 15–1 1st NCAA Runner–up
2005–06 Illinois 26–7 11–5 T–2nd NCAA 2nd Round
2006–07 Illinois 23–12 9–7 T–4th NCAA 1st Round
2007–08 Illinois 16–19 5–13 T–9th
2008–09 Illinois 24–10 11–7 T–2nd NCAA 1st Round
2009–10 Illinois 21–15 10–8 5th NIT Quarterfinals
2010–11 Illinois 20–14 9–9 T–4th NCAA 2nd Round
2011–12 Illinois 17–15 6–12 9th
If you throw out his 2 great years at Illinois + his 2 bad years at Illinois, you're basically staring at Frank Martin's record at KSU. Plus he absolutely crushed it at SIU. He just doesn't look like a total turd to me. :dunno:
Although he obviously reached his ceiling at Illinois and he definitely lost his team last year, so I understand why he was fired...
You are rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). That 16-19 season is literally the worst season in Illinois history. He should have been crap-canned then. The first two years' success were due almost entirely to Self recruits. His two worst years were 100% oscar, coaching and recruiting. You have an over-inflated view of yourself if you don't think you're a total dumbass.
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No, oscar got what he deserved.
1996 - 97 Lon Kruger 22 - 10 11 - 7 4th(T) NCAA 2nd Round
1997 - 98 Lon Kruger 23 - 10 13 - 3 1st(T) NCAA 2nd Round
1998 - 99 Lon Kruger 14 - 18 3 - 13 11th
1999 - 00 Lon Kruger 22 - 10 11 - 5 4th NCAA 2nd Round
Lon Kruger: 81 - 48 38 - 28
Bill Self (2000–2003)
2000 - 01 Bill Self 27 - 8 13 - 3 1st(T) NCAA Elite Eight
2001 - 02 Bill Self 26 - 9 11 - 5 1st(T) NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2002 - 03 Bill Self 25 - 7 11 - 5 2nd NCAA 2nd Round
Bill Self: 78 - 24 35 - 13
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I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.
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I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.
I don't think that's a stretch.
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I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.
FWIW, not making every other post made about K-State basketball into some repeated sarcastic #burnitdown mantra post doesn't equal "arguing for oscar".
People were dumb for arguing for one more year for Wooly, and I include myself in any Wooly supporting stupidity.
This is not the same.
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I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:
Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)
Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.
And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.
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Weber's "above average" success is entirely due to Self's recruits. Arguing that Frank had it made in the shade at KSU because of Beasley and in the same breathe giving Weber the credit for his record his first few years at Illinois is beyond inconsistent.
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I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:
Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)
Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.
And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.
Most losses in a single season in Illinois history. Literally the worst season.
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I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:
Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)
Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.
And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.
oscar Weber missed the NCAA tournament 3 times in his last 5 seasons at Illinois.
In the 21 seasons before oscar Weber arrived, Illinois missed the NCAA tournament 4 times.
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I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:
Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)
Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.
And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.
oscar Weber missed the NCAA tournament 3 times in his last 5 seasons at Illinois.
In the 21 seasons before oscar Weber arrived, Illinois missed the NCAA tournament 4 times.
pffft
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That's really the take home. I would never suggest Illinois is some basketball powerhouse or blueblood. Not even close, but it never had a culture of sucking total and complete ass. oscar did that twice when the training wheels were off. Not just oops barely missed the NCAA tournament, middle of the pack in conference let down. I'm talking god-rough ridin'-awful, total garbage, can't be watched it's so ugly, losing basketball. No rough ridin' hope for the future bad. You know it's over bad. Even when he was "winning" on his own it was such a brutally ugly brand of offensive basketball. Like win over a ranked opponent and still get mocked in the media. oscar took a program that Lon and Bill had humming on all cylinders and ran it into the rough ridin' ground. He rough ridin' sucks at being a high major head basketball coach. Couple that with his rough ridin' dorkstore personality and constant blame deflection...I don't have the words.
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I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:
Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)
Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.
And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.
oscar Weber missed the NCAA tournament 3 times in his last 5 seasons at Illinois.
In the 21 seasons before oscar Weber arrived, Illinois missed the NCAA tournament 4 times.
yeah. illinois is a great job and a school that is ridiculously easy to have success at in basketball. it's why oscar weber was the first coach that they've ever had to fire in their over 100 year history that they've been playing basketball. he only had 2 over .500 finishes in conference in his last five years there. at illinois, that is not acceptable and it shouldn't be acceptable here either. he was fired because he was losing more conference games than he was winning. 41-49 in conference during his last five years there. that's it. no more/no less.
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By the way, I'm just going to throw this out there:
I don't agree that Frank was a better coach than KSU is a job. I don't see why the KSU coaching gig can't be a good one. :dunno:
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xSLF7fqLjGo%2FT9uI2V8CqLI%2FAAAAAAAAAyY%2FySN17feWAfo%2Fs1600%2Fwhite_flag.jpg&hash=15a617732ed47721cda0f619f6477a8e8575a6ac)
Whatever, I still think he'll be fine at KSU. Although I'm not loving the play of this year's team.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xSLF7fqLjGo%2FT9uI2V8CqLI%2FAAAAAAAAAyY%2FySN17feWAfo%2Fs1600%2Fwhite_flag.jpg&hash=15a617732ed47721cda0f619f6477a8e8575a6ac)
Whatever, I still think he'll be fine at KSU. Although I'm not loving the play of this year's team.
i hope you're right gosp. it would be a lot of fun to have the success that weber had while he was at s ill and the first couple of years at illinois. maybe the old coot has some tricks up those polyester sleeves after all. :crossfingers:
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By the way, I'm just going to throw this out there:
I don't agree that Frank was a better coach than KSU is a job. I don't see why the KSU coaching gig can't be a good one. :dunno:
We were arguably a top 25 program (when you look at Frank's five seasons as a whole.) That's really hard no matter where you are.
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By the way, I'm just going to throw this out there:
I don't agree that Frank was a better coach than KSU is a job. I don't see why the KSU coaching gig can't be a good one. :dunno:
We were arguably a top 25 program (when you look at Frank's five seasons as a whole.) That's really hard no matter where you are.
touche
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I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.
where do you hang out? i've honestly not met any of these people.
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great posting by 'zacker in today's installment.
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I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.
where do you hang out? i've honestly not met any of these people.
Wondering the same thing....stand up and identify yourselves.
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I love this obesession with the type of situation a coach walks into. It means nothing.
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great posting by 'zacker in today's installment.
He was nails in the football recruiting thread today too. All around great day for 'zacker. :cheers:
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Good coaches win regardless of their predecessor, bad coaches lose. Just cut the bullshit and either say, "I like oscar," or "I don't like oscar." Because that's all that's really going on here.
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Good coaches win regardless of their predecessor, bad coaches lose. Just cut the bullshit and either say, "I like oscar," or "I don't like oscar." Because that's all that's really going on here.
Thanks, we saw your first post on the subject two posts ago.
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Take a good coach like Beilein, for example. Does it matter that Michigan sucked when he went there? Of course not. GMAFB.
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Take a good coach like Beilein, for example. Does it matter that Michigan sucked when he went there? Of course not. GMAFB.
Yeah, it mattered. It made that 5-13 in conference, which was a significant step back from 8-8 and the NIT each of the previous two years, the first year tolerable.
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Take a good coach like Beilein, for example. Does it matter that Michigan sucked when he went there? Of course not. GMAFB.
Yeah, it mattered. It made that 5-13 in conference, which was a significant step back from 8-8 and the NIT each of the previous two years, the first year tolerable.
I guess I misunderstood the topic at hand: whether or not oscar's first season will be tolerable. I have no idea about that. I'm curious to find out.
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I am confident in predicting that oscar well have a slightly better home record and equal road record to wooly
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By the way, I'm just going to throw this out there:
I don't agree that Frank was a better coach than KSU is a job. I don't see why the KSU coaching gig can't be a good one. :dunno:
We were arguably a top 25 program (when you look at Frank's five seasons as a whole.) That's really hard no matter where you are.
Is it? because i don't think so
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Well, 25/320ish is a pretty small number IMO
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By the way, I'm just going to throw this out there:
I don't agree that Frank was a better coach than KSU is a job. I don't see why the KSU coaching gig can't be a good one. :dunno:
We were arguably a top 25 program (when you look at Frank's five seasons as a whole.) That's really hard no matter where you are.
Is it? because i don't think so
think again, bud.
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if it was hard then every team would do it.
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I'm not sure if I succeeded or failed here....
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I hate the oscar hire. I will love him if he is successful. Nothing in his history or the start of this season makes me think he will be. This makes me sad. Go 'cats!
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I am confident in predicting that oscar well have a slightly better home record and equal road record to wooly
Either you're really dramatic or have a very poor memory
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I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.
FWIW, not making every other post made about K-State basketball into some repeated sarcastic #burnitdown mantra post doesn't equal "arguing for oscar".
People were dumb for arguing for one more year for Wooly, and I include myself in any Wooly supporting stupidity.
This is not the same.
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I am confident in predicting that oscar well have a slightly better home record and equal road record to wooly
Either you're really dramatic or have a very poor memory
Yeah, I've been consistent in saying comparisons between oscar and Wooly are just silly.
oscar:
Big 10 road record: 32-43 (.427)
Last 6 years: 17-36 (.321)
For comparison:
Kruger: 13-15 (.480)
Altman: 6-22 (.214)
Asbury: 5-41 (.110)
Wooly: 8-40 (.167)
Huggs: 4-4 (.500)
Martin: 20-20 (.500)
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For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.
I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.
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For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.
I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.
Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.
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For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.
I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.
yeah. it's just that one group has already made up their mind and have decided that it isn't going to work and the other side still has hope. it also reminds me of the last year of prince. i went to the texas tech game with pete and he was openly cheering for tech to beat kstate by 50 because he wanted prince out. he didn't need to see any more. people around us were incredulous. it was also kind of the same way when snyder 2.0 came back but to a much lesser extent. i'd say the wait and see crowd won that one. maybe they'll win this too but i know what side i'm betting on.
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This last Saturday was opened my eyes even more to what an overall dearth of basketball talent and ability Frank left behind.
As I've said before, there's just not a lot of basketball talent on this team, and I'm afraid oscar has no ability to coach a brick and board "offense" and a really tough defense.
Frank probably gets this team back to 10-8/9-9 in conference and maybe a cup of coffee in the NCAA tourney. That said, regardless if it was Frank or oscar this team doesn't beat Michigan, nor does it beat Gonzoga or Florida, so no quality OOC wins, putting it all the conference slate and using 4 losses to OU and ISU last year as our guide, welp . . .. ( :lol: at me and anyone who thinks/thought this was a Sweet 16 team) . . . oscar is probably NIT bound.
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For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.
I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.
Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.
The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.
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I thought Round of 32 should be my our minimum expectations for this year. Looks like that is about the absolute ceiling now :goodbyecruelworld:
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For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.
I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.
Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.
The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.
do the prince loyalists next!
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For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.
I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.
Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.
The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.
Honestly, the Wooly years and the ridiculous amount of patience really skews the discussion and comparisons to that era are stupid. Its such an outlier not only in terms of K-State fans but college sports in general and it was absolutely ridiculous that the man got 6 years to coach at K-State. With the current state of the college athletics I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again at K-State and its really probably the worst thing K-State sports has done in the modern era. I just don't consider any comparisons to Wooly in either the coaching ability of oscar or the patience of the fans to be valid.
The comparison that fits most IMHO is the state of the fanbase going into Asbury's last few years or even Altman. That's the situation we'll be dealing with in a couple years most likely.
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I'm not sure if I succeeded or failed here....
Needs more slogans and/or gang colors.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fe3Hkt.jpg%3F1&hash=28606bc9bf19e44fdaa1e52a99760b10b7572aa7)
VIVE LA NATION CHAT SAUVAGE!
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For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.
I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.
Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.
The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.
Honestly, the Wooly years and the ridiculous amount of patience really skews the discussion and comparisons to that era are stupid. Its such an outlier not only in terms of K-State fans but college sports in general and it was absolutely ridiculous that the man got 6 years to coach at K-State. With the current state of the college athletics I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again at K-State and its really probably the worst thing K-State sports has done in the modern era. I just don't consider any comparisons to Wooly in either the coaching ability of oscar or the patience of the fans to be valid.
The comparison that fits most IMHO is the state of the fanbase going into Asbury's last few years or even Altman. That's the situation we'll be dealing with in a couple years most likely.
i think you guys are both right and that you are both talking about completely different things.
also and this is off topic, but how freaking amazing was the big8 in basketball back when altman was here. just an amazingly good conference. dana went 4-10 in conference during his last year here and then still made the nit and went to the final four of it. it's going to be hard to just look at overall records when comparing coaches that coached in completely different conferences 20 years apart from each other. off topic- who was it that they lost to? was it the jaspers? i honestly can't remember.
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losses came to vandy in the semis, sienna in the consolation game
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Vandy/Siena.
I agree that its harder to compare to Altman. A little easier to Asbury, but still some significant differences.
But Wooly is just dumb.
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weird that the only team i remember were the jaspers and they were the only team that kstate didn't play in that final four. also weird that fran was their coach and i don't remember that either. i love fran. although that was my freshman year of college though so :drink:
also quite the back to back coaches for the jaspers with lappas and then fran. also i like to say jaspers.
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do the prince loyalists next!
They do not exist, do they? Figments of your imagination.
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asbury was a successful mid-major coach who was viewed as an up and comer before landing in mhk, best known for losing an OT game against michigan in the ncaa tourney, winning a bunch of games against overmatched wcc opponents and for coaching doug christie. asbury was also on the USA coaching staff and brought the waves to the post season almost every year.
oscar was a successful mid-major coach who then failed at the major level at illinois and viewed as someone heading out to pasture.
i guess what i'm saying is that at least w/ asbury there was legitimate reason to hold out hope. while i don't think oscar will fail miserably like some here do, i think the most we're getting from him is a steak dinner from applebees and half of a big brewtus, neither of which is something i would particularly look forward to.
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asbury was a successful mid-major coach who was viewed as an up and comer before landing in mhk, best known for losing an OT game against michigan in the ncaa tourney, winning a bunch of games against overmatched wcc opponents and for coaching doug christie. asbury was also on the USA coaching staff and brought the waves to the post season almost every year.
oscar was a successful mid-major coach who then failed at the major level at illinois and viewed as someone heading out to pasture.
i guess what i'm saying is that at least w/ asbury there was legitimate reason to hold out hope. while i don't think oscar will fail miserably like some here do, i think the most we're getting from him is a steak dinner from applebees and half of a big brewtus, neither of which is something i would particularly look forward to.
Good points. Going into year 4 of Asbury (and especially 5) there were plenty of concerns and the fanbase was divided. oscar is just starting his career that way.
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For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.
I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.
Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.
The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.
This was essentially my point – there is the give him a chance side and there’s the I’ve seen enough. In both instances, there’s a historical record that is either excused (or whatever you want to call it) because of extenuating circumstances or is held as conclusive evidence that more of the same will occur. (The difference, obviously, is that oscar hasn’t failed at ksu). IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball when I’ve come to my conclusion that it’s going to be more of the same (I will acknowledge that I thought Bill would not get us remotely close to 10 wins in back to back seasons).
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I am confident in predicting that oscar well have a slightly better home record and equal road record to wooly
Either you're really dramatic or have a very poor memory
Yeah, I've been consistent in saying comparisons between oscar and Wooly are just silly.
oscar:
Big 10 road record: 32-43 (.427)
Last 6 years: 17-36 (.321)
For comparison:
Kruger: 13-15 (.480)
Altman: 6-22 (.214)
Asbury: 5-41 (.110)
Wooly: 8-40 (.167)
Huggs: 4-4 (.500)
Martin: 20-20 (.500)
:love:
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We'll see. But oscar sucked with some pretty talented rosters. He will never have near the talent level of what he had at illinois.
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We'll see. But oscar sucked with some pretty talented rosters. He will never have near the talent level of what he had at illinois.
I agree with this part, completely. I have zero doubt of this.
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We'll see. But oscar sucked with some pretty talented rosters. He will never have near the talent level of what he had at illinois.
I agree with this part, completely. I have zero doubt of this.
They weren't his kind of players. VLBWIQ.
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IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball...
This is true for me too, and I won't deny it.
Part is due to great football, but under Frank K-State basketball was can't miss not only because we had good teams but because of Frank. Weber simply doesn't bring that factor, but I've come to the conclusion that whether or not he succeeds or fails we probably won't get that back any time soon, even on the next hire. The opportunity we had with Gottlieb would've been the closest thing, but that ship sailed. Even if oscar completely burns it down and fails and somehow gets fired after only 2 or 3 seasons, the next hire will probably be on the safe side and not a personality like Frank. Granted, it likely won't be something like oscar where its easy to cause division because the guy just got fired, but it will be safe.
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IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball...
This is true for me too, and I won't deny it.
Part is due to great football, but under Frank K-State basketball was can't miss not only because we had good teams but because of Frank. Weber simply doesn't bring that factor, but I've come to the conclusion that whether or not he succeeds or fails we probably won't get that back any time soon, even on the next hire. The opportunity we had with Gottlieb would've been the closest thing, but that ship sailed. Even if oscar completely burns it down and fails and somehow gets fired after only 2 or 3 seasons, the next hire will probably be on the safe side and not a personality like Frank. Granted, it likely won't be something like oscar where its easy to cause division because the guy just got fired, but it will be safe.
A "safe hire" by its very definition among EMAW elitaires will cause division. Again.
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If oscar burns us down, safe hires will be the worst thing we can do from that point on until we catch fire again.
If we fail and return to jokebbU, we will need to take chances to get a vault back up again, and by chances I mean disgraced coaches who still smell of the rule book they were bludgeoned with shortly before we began contract negotiations.
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IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball...
This is true for me too, and I won't deny it.
Part is due to great football, but under Frank K-State basketball was can't miss not only because we had good teams but because of Frank. Weber simply doesn't bring that factor, but I've come to the conclusion that whether or not he succeeds or fails we probably won't get that back any time soon, even on the next hire. The opportunity we had with Gottlieb would've been the closest thing, but that ship sailed. Even if oscar completely burns it down and fails and somehow gets fired after only 2 or 3 seasons, the next hire will probably be on the safe side and not a personality like Frank. Granted, it likely won't be something like oscar where its easy to cause division because the guy just got fired, but it will be safe.
an apathetic _fan might be the worst sign yet as to how this whole thing is going to work itself out and i'm being at least 90% serious.
also, part of the reason frank ball was great were the reasons you mentioned, but the other more important part was that there was at least the thought that each team he coached could be great. even if it was just for a day or a week, you knew that each of the teams could and probably would do some amazing things. wins over top 5 teams on the road. first coach in 15 years to beat ku. elite 8 run. sweeping mu last year. all of those things were just incredible and the peaks with frank were just such incredible peaks that you always held out hope because you just never knew. i just watch this team this year and i just don't even think they have a shot at shocking the world or doing something amazing and until they do i don't see how this oscar plane will ever get off the ground. it's just depressing.
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IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball...
This is true for me too, and I won't deny it.
Part is due to great football, but under Frank K-State basketball was can't miss not only because we had good teams but because of Frank. Weber simply doesn't bring that factor, but I've come to the conclusion that whether or not he succeeds or fails we probably won't get that back any time soon, even on the next hire. The opportunity we had with Gottlieb would've been the closest thing, but that ship sailed. Even if oscar completely burns it down and fails and somehow gets fired after only 2 or 3 seasons, the next hire will probably be on the safe side and not a personality like Frank. Granted, it likely won't be something like oscar where its easy to cause division because the guy just got fired, but it will be safe.
an apathetic _fan might be the worst sign yet as to how this whole thing is going to work itself out and i'm being at least 90% serious.
also, part of the reason frank ball was great were the reasons you mentioned, but the other more important part was that there was at least the thought that each team he coached could be great. even if it was just for a day or a week, you knew that each of the teams could and probably would do some amazing things. wins over top 5 teams on the road. first coach in 15 years to beat ku. elite 8 run. sweeping mu last year. all of those things were just incredible and the peaks with frank were just such incredible peaks that you always held out hope because you just never knew. i just watch this team this year and i just don't even think they have a shot at shocking the world or doing something amazing and until they do i don't see how this oscar plane will ever get off the ground. it's just depressing.
Great post
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Good points daris.
I think if this team can even get to shooting reasonably that we can win some games and generate a little excitement.
I'll even go so far to say I expect us to have a solid shooting game against Gonzaga or Florida; doesn't mean we'll win, but I think at least one of those games will go down to the last few minutes.
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Good points daris.
I think if this team can even get to shooting reasonably that we can win some games and generate a little excitement.
I'll even go so far to say I expect us to have a solid shooting game against Gonzaga or Florida; doesn't mean we'll win, but I think at least one of those games will go down to the last few minutes.
Yep, hopefully it comes down to us making plays, and them not making plays.
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Good points daris.
I think if this team can even get to shooting reasonably that we can win some games and generate a little excitement.
I'll even go so far to say I expect us to have a solid shooting game against Gonzaga or Florida; doesn't mean we'll win, but I think at least one of those games will go down to the last few minutes.
oscar has proven his teams can pull some pretty substantial upsets. Hell he did it twice last year (Ohio State and Michigan State). He also has seemed to have Few's number. Illinois typically played disproportionately well against the zags under oscar, or at least that's the way it appeared. 3-1 and they were generally favored if memory serves. Shockingly it was our offense that gave them fits.
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Good points daris.
I think if this team can even get to shooting reasonably that we can win some games and generate a little excitement.
I'll even go so far to say I expect us to have a solid shooting game against Gonzaga or Florida; doesn't mean we'll win, but I think at least one of those games will go down to the last few minutes.
Yep, hopefully it comes down to us making plays, and them not making plays.
lol
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an apathetic _fan might be the worst sign yet as to how this whole thing is going to work itself out and i'm being at least 90% serious.
also, part of the reason frank ball was great were the reasons you mentioned, but the other more important part was that there was at least the thought that each team he coached could be great. even if it was just for a day or a week, you knew that each of the teams could and probably would do some amazing things. wins over top 5 teams on the road. first coach in 15 years to beat ku. elite 8 run. sweeping mu last year. all of those things were just incredible and the peaks with frank were just such incredible peaks that you always held out hope because you just never knew. i just watch this team this year and i just don't even think they have a shot at shocking the world or doing something amazing and until they do i don't see how this oscar plane will ever get off the ground. it's just depressing.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-9Sc92fMhoQo%2FUB7A8ckF0vI%2FAAAAAAAACHs%2FveAK6N65nG0%2Fs320%2FGeorge-Costanza-clapping.gif&hash=f62c717632e50c174d7fd3b2b0147c401b2d6027)
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Good points daris.
I think if this team can even get to shooting reasonably that we can win some games and generate a little excitement.
I'll even go so far to say I expect us to have a solid shooting game against Gonzaga or Florida; doesn't mean we'll win, but I think at least one of those games will go down to the last few minutes.
Yep, hopefully it comes down to us making plays, and them not making plays.
lol
You guys are mean.
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I looked for the exact quote after I posted it, and found this gem of a trip down memory lane (features TWO Texas Tech was too much for us quotes):
http://www.famousquotes.com/author/jim-wooldridge
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I looked for the exact quote after I posted it, and found this gem of a trip down memory lane (features TWO Texas Tech was too much for us quotes):
http://www.famousquotes.com/author/jim-wooldridge
“We had our shot and we needed a play or two here or there. I think I have a good basketball team. I wish we could have made a couple more plays ... I think we are really close.”
It's too early in the week to feel so depressed. Thanks A LOT, mich.
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“We had our shot and we needed a play or two here or there. I think I have a good basketball team. I wish we could have made a couple more plays ... I think we are really close.”
That is the ultimate Wooly quote.
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IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball...
This is true for me too, and I won't deny it.
Part is due to great football, but under Frank K-State basketball was can't miss not only because we had good teams but because of Frank. Weber simply doesn't bring that factor, but I've come to the conclusion that whether or not he succeeds or fails we probably won't get that back any time soon, even on the next hire. The opportunity we had with Gottlieb would've been the closest thing, but that ship sailed. Even if oscar completely burns it down and fails and somehow gets fired after only 2 or 3 seasons, the next hire will probably be on the safe side and not a personality like Frank. Granted, it likely won't be something like oscar where its easy to cause division because the guy just got fired, but it will be safe.
an apathetic _fan might be the worst sign yet as to how this whole thing is going to work itself out and i'm being at least 90% serious.
also, part of the reason frank ball was great were the reasons you mentioned, but the other more important part was that there was at least the thought that each team he coached could be great. even if it was just for a day or a week, you knew that each of the teams could and probably would do some amazing things. wins over top 5 teams on the road. first coach in 15 years to beat ku. elite 8 run. sweeping mu last year. all of those things were just incredible and the peaks with frank were just such incredible peaks that you always held out hope because you just never knew. i just watch this team this year and i just don't even think they have a shot at shocking the world or doing something amazing and until they do i don't see how this oscar plane will ever get off the ground. it's just depressing.
Great post
Yeah. The emotional impact of having hope shouldn't be underestimated. The worst part about our current situation is that we're all waiting for the other shoe to drop when really it'll most likely just be death by a thousand cuts.
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
Aug 23, 2014
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
Oh man...
all in.
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
YES! :thumbs:
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I looked for the exact quote after I posted it, and found this gem of a trip down memory lane (features TWO Texas Tech was too much for us quotes):
http://www.famousquotes.com/author/jim-wooldridge
“We had our shot and we needed a play or two here or there. I think I have a good basketball team. I wish we could have made a couple more plays ... I think we are really close.”
It's too early in the week to feel so depressed. Thanks A LOT, mich.
was that post CU/ISU?
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
Give me the odds of that happening...
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
don't do this to me.
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
Give me the odds of that happening...
Depends on Currie's job search, I would imagine.
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
Give me the odds of that happening...
...same as Timmy hiring Huggins? :pray: where's Fogler at?
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi133.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq45%2Fkougar24%2FKState%2Fpearl-lips-gods-ears.png&hash=9d79b91c790ef1c3e4e7cdf47c95e00206ff499e)
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
From your lips to god's ears...
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The same people who hated Frank, would also hate the idea of Pearl.
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The same people who hated Frank, would also hate the idea of Pearl.
another pro for #tradebruces
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People would forget about Pearl's barbecue pretty quickly, and he's far more personable than Frank. No chip on his shoulder, and although I'm sure he is a dick to players like all college coaches are, he makes somewhat less of a show of it than Frank does. And he always look like he's coaching, which stupid people love.
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People would forget about Pearl's barbecue pretty quickly, and he's far more personable than Frank. No chip on his shoulder, and although I'm sure he is a dick to players like all college coaches are, he makes somewhat less of a show of it than Frank does. And he always look like he's coaching, which stupid people love.
:lol:
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Where did I see oscar Pearl this weekend? Was it CBS or ESPN?
Defense/Offense/Rebounding.
Under Frank in most games at last one was very good and another was good, making for weakness elsewhere. Many games there were two crucial areas that were very good.
I don't see that happening under oscar. I see many stretches were Webers system can get us many open looks and we won't be able to knock them, and we won't make up for that elsewhere.
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IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball...
This is true for me too, and I won't deny it.
Part is due to great football, but under Frank K-State basketball was can't miss not only because we had good teams but because of Frank. Weber simply doesn't bring that factor, but I've come to the conclusion that whether or not he succeeds or fails we probably won't get that back any time soon, even on the next hire. The opportunity we had with Gottlieb would've been the closest thing, but that ship sailed. Even if oscar completely burns it down and fails and somehow gets fired after only 2 or 3 seasons, the next hire will probably be on the safe side and not a personality like Frank. Granted, it likely won't be something like oscar where its easy to cause division because the guy just got fired, but it will be safe.
an apathetic _fan might be the worst sign yet as to how this whole thing is going to work itself out and i'm being at least 90% serious.
also, part of the reason frank ball was great were the reasons you mentioned, but the other more important part was that there was at least the thought that each team he coached could be great. even if it was just for a day or a week, you knew that each of the teams could and probably would do some amazing things. wins over top 5 teams on the road. first coach in 15 years to beat ku. elite 8 run. sweeping mu last year. all of those things were just incredible and the peaks with frank were just such incredible peaks that you always held out hope because you just never knew. i just watch this team this year and i just don't even think they have a shot at shocking the world or doing something amazing and until they do i don't see how this oscar plane will ever get off the ground. it's just depressing.
Great post
Yeah. The emotional impact of having hope shouldn't be underestimated.
yes. the big problem is that fans will still have hope.
it's just that the hope will be diluted from what it was previously. instead of hope for greatness, it will be hope for above averageness. instead of hoping to make another run in the tourney, it will be hoping to just get into the tourney. that's what has some people worried. that the hope will still be there and that it will be enough for most. it won't be for me and for some others though. we saw what could be done and we liked it too much to ever quietly go back to that.
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi133.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq45%2Fkougar24%2FKState%2Fpearl-lips-gods-ears.png&hash=9d79b91c790ef1c3e4e7cdf47c95e00206ff499e)
I have no hope of it ever happening, but I would love it soooooo much.
It's the kind of hire that would have prevented the division of fans that splintered off to be butthurt about frank.
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we could get back to exciting, kstatesque, _fan-engaging bball in one year. just trade out bruces.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi133.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq45%2Fkougar24%2FKState%2Fpearl-lips-gods-ears.png&hash=9d79b91c790ef1c3e4e7cdf47c95e00206ff499e)
I have no hope of it ever happening, but I would love it soooooo much.
It's the kind of hire that would have prevented the division of fans that splintered off to be butthurt about frank.
Well there would've been a split if Pearl had been hired, it's just that the butthurt would be on the other side of the aisle. Which is ok.
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i'm not so sure, cns casey. firing oscar weber, buying out his contract, and then hiring oscar pearl is exactly the type of move i can see a fiscally conservative, risk averse, athletic director making.
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i'm not so sure, cns casey. firing oscar weber, buying out his contract, and then hiring oscar pearl is exactly the type of move i can see a fiscally conservative, risk averse, athletic director making.
Well the same fiscally conservative, risk averse, athletic director is paying our oscar $1.7M eventhough his only other known job oppy was College of Charleston or Charlotte, or whatever. Gotta think we are paying about $1m/yr over what his other option was.
That said, of course we aren't buying out oscar.
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People would forget about Pearl's barbecue pretty quickly, and he's far more personable than Frank. No chip on his shoulder, and although I'm sure he is a dick to players like all college coaches are, he makes somewhat less of a show of it than Frank does. And he always look like he's coaching, which stupid people love.
:lol:
Ya. Constructive criticism during the game is apparently really important to some people.
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It's the kind of hire that would have prevented the division of fans that splintered off to be butthurt about frank.
Seems to me there are at least 3 groups
-eff Frank/Give oscar a chance
-Frank Butthurt/eff oscar
-No Frank butthurt/eff oscar
I am in the last camp
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It's the kind of hire that would have prevented the division of fans that splintered off to be butthurt about frank.
Seems to me there are at least 3 groups
-eff Frank/Give oscar a chance
-Frank Butthurt/eff oscar
-No Frank butthurt/eff oscar
I am in the last camp
that sounds like the best one to be in!
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People would forget about Pearl's barbecue pretty quickly, and he's far more personable than Frank. No chip on his shoulder, and although I'm sure he is a dick to players like all college coaches are, he makes somewhat less of a show of it than Frank does. And he always look like he's coaching, which stupid people love.
:lol:
Ya. Constructive criticism during the game is apparently really important to some people.
Will hit that second FT at MU, so apparently whatever Frank said, worked.
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Aug 23, 2014
to god's ear! :bracketmouse:
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The same people who hated Frank, would also hate the idea of Pearl.
eff 'em.
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It's the kind of hire that would have prevented the division of fans that splintered off to be butthurt about frank.
Seems to me there are at least 3 groups
-eff Frank/Give oscar a chance
-Frank Butthurt/eff oscar
-No Frank butthurt/eff oscar
I am in the last camp
where do I sign up for the eff Frank/eff oscar team? I don't feel like I have Frank butthurt
The same people who hated Frank, would also hate the idea of Pearl.
Also this works on a few levels.
If we're talking about now, people with HBBIQ, its a really rough ridin' stupid comment.
If we're talking about now, with tucks, its an incredibly accurate comment.
Than the red herring of dispatching Wooly and what we would have done with Pearl many years ago.....oh we can dream......
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where do I sign up for the eff Frank/eff oscar team? I don't feel like I have Frank butthurt.
eff frank and frank butthurt are the same thing.
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where do I sign up for the eff Frank/eff oscar team? I don't feel like I have Frank butthurt.
eff frank and frank butthurt are the same thing.
not entirely comfortable with that. Butthurt usually has a connotation of bitching without knowing why you are bitching or bitching for a petty reason. You can put together a reasonable, logical argument for being in a eff Frank camp based on his track record and the way he left.
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I don't know if this Pearl business is better or worse than the Gottlieb pipe dream.
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I don't know if this Pearl business is better or worse than the Gottlieb pipe dream.
It depends if another innocent sink is destroyed in the name of Pearl.
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Butthurt usually has a connotation of bitching without knowing why you are bitching or bitching for a petty reason.
it has the connotation that your butt hurts because someone mumped you right in the ass. sometimes you got raped, sometimes, per fanning and sock, you just made that whole rapey thing up. either way, butthurt.
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What the hell are you talking about, edn? No one with HBBIQ hated Frank.
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What the hell are you talking about, edn? No one with HBBIQ hated Frank.
not quite what I was saying. I was getting at the fact you can be anti-Frank because of his failures as a coach/developer, recruiter, and his conduct/departure. No one in their right mind can call that being butthurt. I mean the fact is Frank is still a bigger part of the K-State brand that oscar is at this point, good or bad.