Author Topic: Party identification and Kansas State Basketball: Loyalists and Revolutionaries (Read 15930 times)

michigancat · « **Reply #50 on:** December 10, 2012, 08:15:43 AM »

Quote from: Ghost of Stan Parrish on December 10, 2012, 08:08:39 AM

Quote from: michigancat on December 10, 2012, 08:01:49 AM
Frank was set up better for one year of success, for sure. But not for long term success.

So I'm really going easy on oscar.

I guess I just see the program as seeming more "sexy" and "up and coming" to a recruit being hosted by Beasley and Walker than it is to a recruit being shown banners. But I forgot about the practice facility when I wrote my original post. So, I'll change my mind and say oscar and Frank were equally well set up long-term.

Bill and Beasley weren't around for hosting visits. I would argue the last few years of being on TV all the time and having ESPN love us is more valuable in the long term.

Super PurpleCat · « **Reply #51 on:** December 10, 2012, 08:19:38 AM »

I was a KSU student during the last of the Asbury years and the beginning of Wooly. I'm well acquainted with tucks sitting on their hands watching teams sleepwalk through losses while everyone turns to the wife and talks about how great Ahearn was. Now that Frank's been run off I fear we're headed straight back to that again. I don't want to believe it, I want to believe everything changed when Huggins and Beasley and Frank and Pullen were here but the power of the K-State Tuck is very strong. Tuck Power is what keeps nice guy coaches like Neck Brace Wooly and Tan Tom here for 6 year stints. Tuck Power is why basketball programs go through 20 years of getting beat at home by KU, why football programs go through 40 years of poop fests.

Whatever party is against that, that's the one I'm on.

kso_FAN · « **Reply #52 on:** December 10, 2012, 08:27:22 AM »

Asbury was not a nice guy coach. At all. He was just a mediocre one that tanked it his final year (similar to what happened to oscar actually, but with much less talent), but he was a lot better than Wooly as far as success goes. The floor (IMO) for oscar is to be a repeat of Asbury as far as success goes.

I have no fear of ever having a Wooly era again, but I do have fear of having a bunch of Asbury/Altman eras.

420seriouscat69 · « **Reply #53 on:** December 10, 2012, 09:03:13 AM »

Feels good you guys: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

Cire · « **Reply #54 on:** December 10, 2012, 09:16:22 AM »

JFC pullen and beas weren't hugs guys.

steve dave · « **Reply #55 on:** December 10, 2012, 09:26:51 AM »

Quote from: Cire on December 10, 2012, 09:16:22 AM

JFC pullen and beas weren't hugs guys.

if you are going to go this route you are also going to have to say mcgruder wasn't frank's recruit either.

catzacker · « **Reply #56 on:** December 10, 2012, 10:27:09 AM »

Frank took over a program that hadn't gone to the NCAA tourney for over a decade, had finished with a winning conference record just once in the past 19 years, hadn't gotten past the 1st round of the tourney in 20 years, hadn't beaten an instate rival at home in 20+ years, had to negotiate with the women's team or facilities to get practice time in, and whose attendance could be counted on one hand. His first year, his 3 of this top 5 scorers were freshman (albeit, 2 of them at the time were nba players) and 6 of the 9 top scorers were freshman.

oscar, on the other hand, is taking over a program that went to the tourney 4 out of 5 times, finished with a winning conference record each year, won a tourney game each year, made it to the elite 8, beat ku twice at home, just built brand spanking new practice facility, and created an evinronment which was labeled the OOD. In oscar's first year, he has returning 7 of his top 9 scorers, and of those 7, 5 are upperclassmen.

STFU with this idea that frank and oscar's starting points are the same. They aren't. oscar has no excuses.

Ghost of Stan Parrish · « **Reply #57 on:** December 10, 2012, 10:51:13 AM »

Quote from: catzacker on December 10, 2012, 10:27:09 AM

Frank took over a program that hadn't gone to the NCAA tourney for over a decade, had finished with a winning conference record just once in the past 19 years, hadn't gotten past the 1st round of the tourney in 20 years, hadn't beaten an instate rival at home in 20+ years, had to negotiate with the women's team or facilities to get practice time in, and whose attendance could be counted on one hand. His first year, his 3 of this top 5 scorers were freshman (albeit, 2 of them at the time were nba players) and 6 of the 9 top scorers were freshman.

oscar, on the other hand, is taking over a program that went to the tourney 4 out of 5 times, finished with a winning conference record each year, won a tourney game each year, made it to the elite 8, beat ku twice at home, just built brand spanking new practice facility, and created an evinronment which was labeled the OOD. In oscar's first year, he has returning 7 of his top 9 scorers, and of those 7, 5 are upperclassmen.
STFU with this idea that frank and oscar's starting points are the same. They aren't. oscar has no excuses.

Huggins' team was NCAA quality. We got screwed in 2007 by being left out. I mean, that year we finished 4th and had a better conference record than Martin's team last year. (I just realized that: the 2007 team did better in conference than Martin's team last year that Weber is inheriting.) Huggins did the heavy lifting. He put KSU back on the basketball map in terms of winning, recruiting and media coverage. Martin inherited the #1 recruit in the country. Just because the key players on this team are older doesn't make up for the vast talent disparity between Martin's first team and Weber's first team. Is McGruder's greater experience going to make him POY? No.

Frank inherited infinitely better players, period. The prior years' teams before Frank and oscar arrived actually posted similar records, although Huggins' team did better in conference. Weber inherits the practice facility and the NCAA momentum that got our team in the tourney last year despite a 5th-place finish. I don't know how you weigh the nation's #1 recruit (plus other players) against "momentum" and a building. I don't think it's a slam dunk either way.

Ghost of Stan Parrish · « **Reply #58 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:03:04 AM »

In any event, this back-and-forth dialectic is doing an excellent job of illustrating KK's original thesis that your views on oscar color the content of your posts.

Good job, us.

catzacker · « **Reply #59 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:13:33 AM »

Huggins team didn't go to the tourney because they didn't deserve to. Conference standing has nothing to do with ncaa quality. Last year we had entirely better wins than in Huggins year. It's not even close. I'm not sure you understand how the NCAA tourney picks teams.

The program frank inherited was worse than the program oscar did. Weber inherits a better program. A program that expects to win. A program who's facilities and recent history can provide some relevance in recruiting on their own. A program that has talented players who have played multiple years in major college basketball. We're returning players that have done nothing but win their entire careers here and have (at least) one year of starting and playing in major college basketball.

I'm laughing if you think that when we got Beasley that kids were just lining up to come to KSU. They weren't. EVERYONE was sayinig it wa a one hit wonder at KSU. We might win one year and then that loser coach who only got a promotion to keep one recruiting class would lose his entire career.

michigancat · « **Reply #60 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:15:21 AM »

the starting point thing was just kind of an afterthought. What I said originally still stands even if you don't consider the starting points.

catzacker · « **Reply #61 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:15:53 AM »

Quote from: Ghost of Stan Parrish on December 10, 2012, 11:03:04 AM

In any event, this back-and-forth dialectic is doing an excellent job of illustrating KK's original thesis that your views on oscar color the content of your posts.

Good job, us.

I think what's an afront to my intelligence is that I'm supposed to have a different view of what oscar Weber did at Illinois. he got rough ridin' fired for losing. what is my view supposed to be?

CNS · « **Reply #62 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:16:24 AM »

Zacker is right about the expectations after Beaz. Nation wide we were mocked when hiring Frank, saying it was a panic hire to hold on to a kid that would only be here one year after which the high school coach would wet his pants.

kougar24 · « **Reply #63 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:20:14 AM »

I love the hoops board version of michigancat so hard.

Ghost of Stan Parrish · « **Reply #64 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:38:52 AM »

Quote from: catzacker on December 10, 2012, 11:15:53 AM

I think what's an afront to my intelligence is that I'm supposed to have a different view of what oscar Weber did at Illinois. he got rough ridin' fired for losing. what is my view supposed to be?

Everyone says that, and then I look at this, and I'm left thinking maybe Illinois has an overinflated view of itself:

Quote

1998–99    Southern Illinois    15–12    10–8    T–5th
1999–00    Southern Illinois    20–13    12–6    3rd    NIT 2nd Round
2000–01    Southern Illinois    16–14    10–8    T–4th
2001–02    Southern Illinois    28–8    14–4    T–1st    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2002–03    Southern Illinois    24–7    16–2    1st    NCAA 1st Round

2003–04    Illinois    26–7    13–3    1st    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2004–05    Illinois    37–2    15–1    1st    NCAA Runner–up
2005–06    Illinois    26–7    11–5    T–2nd    NCAA 2nd Round
2006–07    Illinois    23–12    9–7    T–4th    NCAA 1st Round
2007–08    Illinois    16–19    5–13    T–9th
2008–09    Illinois    24–10    11–7    T–2nd    NCAA 1st Round
2009–10    Illinois    21–15    10–8    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2010–11    Illinois    20–14    9–9    T–4th    NCAA 2nd Round
2011–12    Illinois    17–15    6–12    9th

If you throw out his 2 great years at Illinois + his 2 bad years at Illinois, you're basically staring at Frank Martin's record at KSU. Plus he absolutely crushed it at SIU. He just doesn't look like a total turd to me.

Although he obviously reached his ceiling at Illinois and he definitely lost his team last year, so I understand why he was fired...

Mr Bread · « **Reply #65 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:48:44 AM »

Quote from: Ghost of Stan Parrish on December 10, 2012, 11:38:52 AM

Quote from: catzacker on December 10, 2012, 11:15:53 AM
I think what's an afront to my intelligence is that I'm supposed to have a different view of what oscar Weber did at Illinois. he got rough ridin' fired for losing. what is my view supposed to be?

Everyone says that, and then I look at this, and I'm left thinking maybe Illinois has an overinflated view of itself:

Quote
1998–99    Southern Illinois    15–12    10–8    T–5th
1999–00    Southern Illinois    20–13    12–6    3rd    NIT 2nd Round
2000–01    Southern Illinois    16–14    10–8    T–4th
2001–02    Southern Illinois    28–8    14–4    T–1st    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2002–03    Southern Illinois    24–7    16–2    1st    NCAA 1st Round

2003–04    Illinois    26–7    13–3    1st    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2004–05    Illinois    37–2    15–1    1st    NCAA Runner–up
2005–06    Illinois    26–7    11–5    T–2nd    NCAA 2nd Round
2006–07    Illinois    23–12    9–7    T–4th    NCAA 1st Round
2007–08    Illinois    16–19    5–13    T–9th
2008–09    Illinois    24–10    11–7    T–2nd    NCAA 1st Round
2009–10    Illinois    21–15    10–8    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2010–11    Illinois    20–14    9–9    T–4th    NCAA 2nd Round
2011–12    Illinois    17–15    6–12    9th

If you throw out his 2 great years at Illinois + his 2 bad years at Illinois, you're basically staring at Frank Martin's record at KSU. Plus he absolutely crushed it at SIU. He just doesn't look like a total turd to me.

Although he obviously reached his ceiling at Illinois and he definitely lost his team last year, so I understand why he was fired...

You are rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). That 16-19 season is literally the worst season in Illinois history. He should have been crap-canned then. The first two years' success were due almost entirely to Self recruits. His two worst years were 100% oscar, coaching and recruiting. You have an over-inflated view of yourself if you don't think you're a total dumbass.

catzacker · « **Reply #66 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:49:24 AM »

No, oscar got what he deserved.

1996 - 97 Lon Kruger 22 - 10 11 - 7 4th(T) NCAA 2nd Round
1997 - 98 Lon Kruger 23 - 10 13 - 3 1st(T) NCAA 2nd Round
1998 - 99 Lon Kruger 14 - 18 3 - 13 11th
1999 - 00 Lon Kruger 22 - 10 11 - 5 4th NCAA 2nd Round
Lon Kruger: 81 - 48 38 - 28
Bill Self (2000–2003)
2000 - 01 Bill Self 27 - 8 13 - 3 1st(T) NCAA Elite Eight
2001 - 02 Bill Self 26 - 9 11 - 5 1st(T) NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2002 - 03 Bill Self 25 - 7 11 - 5 2nd NCAA 2nd Round
Bill Self: 78 - 24 35 - 13

catzacker · « **Reply #67 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:50:49 AM »

I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.

kougar24 · « **Reply #68 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:54:22 AM »

Quote from: catzacker on December 10, 2012, 11:50:49 AM

I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.

I don't think that's a stretch.

kso_FAN · « **Reply #69 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:56:39 AM »

Quote from: catzacker on December 10, 2012, 11:50:49 AM

I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year.

FWIW, not making every other post made about K-State basketball into some repeated sarcastic #burnitdown mantra post doesn't equal "arguing for oscar".

People were dumb for arguing for one more year for Wooly, and I include myself in any Wooly supporting stupidity.

This is not the same.

Ghost of Stan Parrish · « **Reply #70 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:59:50 AM »

I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:

Quote

Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)

Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.

And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.

catzacker · « **Reply #71 on:** December 10, 2012, 12:10:23 PM »

Weber's "above average" success is entirely due to Self's recruits. Arguing that Frank had it made in the shade at KSU because of Beasley and in the same breathe giving Weber the credit for his record his first few years at Illinois is beyond inconsistent.

Mr Bread · « **Reply #72 on:** December 10, 2012, 12:12:12 PM »

Quote from: Ghost of Stan Parrish on December 10, 2012, 11:59:50 AM

I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:

Quote
Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)

Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.

And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.

Most losses in a single season in Illinois history. Literally the worst season.

michigancat · « **Reply #73 on:** December 10, 2012, 12:15:00 PM »

Quote from: Ghost of Stan Parrish on December 10, 2012, 11:59:50 AM

I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:

Quote
Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)

Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.

And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.

Quote from: michigancat on April 03, 2012, 01:26:30 PM

oscar Weber missed the NCAA tournament 3 times in his last 5 seasons at Illinois.

In the 21 seasons before oscar Weber arrived, Illinois missed the NCAA tournament 4 times.

Mr Bread · « **Reply #74 on:** December 10, 2012, 12:16:00 PM »

Quote from: michigancat on December 10, 2012, 12:15:00 PM

Quote from: Ghost of Stan Parrish on December 10, 2012, 11:59:50 AM
I'll just go ahead and quote myself from a while ago:

Quote
Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison. Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived. Self was responsible for just getting two of them. Weber won two more. In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952. From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Self had also just gotten one of each of these. (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)

Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game. Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture. (Not "below average.") Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years. This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.

And Mr. Bread, I'm sorry to see you are one of those people who misuses "literally." It metaphorically drives me crazy.

Quote from: michigancat on April 03, 2012, 01:26:30 PM
oscar Weber missed the NCAA tournament 3 times in his last 5 seasons at Illinois.

In the 21 seasons before oscar Weber arrived, Illinois missed the NCAA tournament 4 times.

pffft