Party identification and Kansas State Basketball: Loyalists and Revolutionaries

[WillieWatanabe]

I feel like the same people who are arguing for oscar are the same people who wanted to give Wooly one more year. 

FWIW, not making every other post made about K-State basketball into some repeated sarcastic #burnitdown mantra post doesn't equal "arguing for oscar".

People were dumb for arguing for one more year for Wooly, and I include myself in any Wooly supporting stupidity.

This is not the same.

[kso_FAN]

I am confident in predicting that oscar well have a slightly better home record and equal road record to wooly

Either you're really dramatic or have a very poor memory

Yeah, I've been consistent in saying comparisons between oscar and Wooly are just silly.

oscar:
Big 10 road record: 32-43 (.427)
Last 6 years: 17-36 (.321)

For comparison:
Kruger: 13-15 (.480)
Altman: 6-22 (.214)
Asbury: 5-41 (.110)
Wooly: 8-40 (.167)
Huggs: 4-4 (.500)
Martin: 20-20 (.500)

[michigancat]

For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.

I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.

[kso_FAN]

For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.

I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.

Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.

[Dr Rick Daris]

For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.

I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.

yeah. it's just that one group has already made up their mind and have decided that it isn't going to work and the other side still has hope. it also reminds me of the last year of prince. i went to the texas tech game with pete and he was openly cheering for tech to beat kstate by 50 because he wanted prince out. he didn't need to see any more. people around us were incredulous. it was also kind of the same way when snyder 2.0 came back but to a much lesser extent. i'd say the wait and see crowd won that one. maybe they'll win this too but i know what side i'm betting on.

[sonofdaxjones]

This last Saturday was opened my eyes even more to what an overall dearth of basketball talent and ability Frank left behind.   

As I've said before, there's just not a lot of basketball talent on this team, and I'm afraid oscar has no ability to coach a brick and board "offense" and a really tough defense.   

Frank probably gets this team back to 10-8/9-9 in conference and maybe a cup of coffee in the NCAA tourney.   That said, regardless if it was Frank or oscar this team doesn't beat Michigan, nor does it beat Gonzoga or Florida, so no quality OOC wins, putting it all the conference slate and using 4 losses to OU and ISU last year as our guide, welp . . .. ( at me and anyone who thinks/thought this was a Sweet 16 team) . . . oscar is probably NIT bound. 

[michigancat]

For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.

I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.

Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.

The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.

[bigwillie20]

I thought Round of 32 should be my our minimum expectations for this year.  Looks like that is about the absolute ceiling now 

[pissclams]

For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.

I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.

Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.

The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.

do the prince loyalists next!

[kso_FAN]

For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.

I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.

Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.

The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.

Honestly, the Wooly years and the ridiculous amount of patience really skews the discussion and comparisons to that era are stupid. Its such an outlier not only in terms of K-State fans but college sports in general and it was absolutely ridiculous that the man got 6 years to coach at K-State. With the current state of the college athletics I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again at K-State and its really probably the worst thing K-State sports has done in the modern era. I just don't consider any comparisons to Wooly in either the coaching ability of oscar or the patience of the fans to be valid.

The comparison that fits most IMHO is the state of the fanbase going into Asbury's last few years or even Altman. That's the situation we'll be dealing with in a couple years most likely.

[Super PurpleCat]

I'm not sure if I succeeded or failed here....

Needs more slogans and/or gang colors.



VIVE LA NATION CHAT SAUVAGE!

[Dr Rick Daris]

For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.

I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.

Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.

The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.

Honestly, the Wooly years and the ridiculous amount of patience really skews the discussion and comparisons to that era are stupid. Its such an outlier not only in terms of K-State fans but college sports in general and it was absolutely ridiculous that the man got 6 years to coach at K-State. With the current state of the college athletics I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again at K-State and its really probably the worst thing K-State sports has done in the modern era. I just don't consider any comparisons to Wooly in either the coaching ability of oscar or the patience of the fans to be valid.

The comparison that fits most IMHO is the state of the fanbase going into Asbury's last few years or even Altman. That's the situation we'll be dealing with in a couple years most likely.

i think you guys are both right and that you are both talking about completely different things.

also and this is off topic, but how freaking amazing was the big8 in basketball back when altman was here. just an amazingly good conference. dana went 4-10 in conference during his last year here and then still made the nit and went to the final four of it. it's going to be hard to just look at overall records when comparing coaches that coached in completely different conferences 20 years apart from each other. off topic- who was it that they lost to? was it the jaspers? i honestly can't remember.

[pissclams]

losses came to vandy in the semis, sienna in the consolation game

[kso_FAN]

Vandy/Siena.

I agree that its harder to compare to Altman. A little easier to Asbury, but still some significant differences.

But Wooly is just dumb.

[Dr Rick Daris]

weird that the only team i remember were the jaspers and they were the only team that kstate didn't play in that final four. also weird that fran was their coach and i don't remember that either. i love fran. although that was my freshman year of college though so 


also quite the back to back coaches for the jaspers with lappas and then fran. also i like to say jaspers.

[slobber]

do the prince loyalists next!

They do not exist, do they? Figments of your imagination.

[pissclams]

asbury was a successful mid-major coach who was viewed as an up and comer before landing in mhk, best known for losing an OT game against michigan in the ncaa tourney, winning a bunch of games against overmatched wcc opponents and for coaching doug christie.  asbury was also on the USA coaching staff and brought the waves to the post season almost every year.

oscar was a successful mid-major coach who then failed at the major level at illinois and viewed as someone heading out to pasture.

i guess what i'm saying is that at least w/ asbury there was legitimate reason to hold out hope.  while i don't think oscar will fail miserably like some here do, i think the most we're getting from him is a steak dinner from applebees and half of a big brewtus, neither of which is something i would particularly look forward to.

[kso_FAN]

asbury was a successful mid-major coach who was viewed as an up and comer before landing in mhk, best known for losing an OT game against michigan in the ncaa tourney, winning a bunch of games against overmatched wcc opponents and for coaching doug christie.  asbury was also on the USA coaching staff and brought the waves to the post season almost every year.

oscar was a successful mid-major coach who then failed at the major level at illinois and viewed as someone heading out to pasture.

i guess what i'm saying is that at least w/ asbury there was legitimate reason to hold out hope.  while i don't think oscar will fail miserably like some here do, i think the most we're getting from him is a steak dinner from applebees and half of a big brewtus, neither of which is something i would particularly look forward to.

Good points. Going into year 4 of Asbury (and especially 5) there were plenty of concerns and the fanbase was divided. oscar is just starting his career that way.

[catzacker]

For me, the mentality of the oscar "wait and see" crowd reminds me a lot of the crowd who always thought Wooly was one year away or would have been ok if Weiser had done more NIT lobbying.

I think that's what the original Wooldridge comment was referring to, also.

Of course it was. I see the correlation, but I don't think its the same. At all.

The reasons I think they're the same is because both times the group is both ignoring actual wins and losses and harboring a mentality that KSU is a really really bad job. And both factions will allow the coach to be around longer than they probably deserve.

This was essentially my point – there is the give him a chance side and there’s the I’ve seen enough.  In both instances, there’s a historical record that is either excused (or whatever you want to call it) because of extenuating circumstances or is held as conclusive evidence that more of the same will occur.  (The difference, obviously, is that oscar hasn’t failed at ksu).  IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball when I’ve come to my conclusion that it’s going to be more of the same (I will acknowledge that I thought Bill would not get us remotely close to 10 wins in back to back seasons). 

[kougar24]

I am confident in predicting that oscar well have a slightly better home record and equal road record to wooly

Either you're really dramatic or have a very poor memory

Yeah, I've been consistent in saying comparisons between oscar and Wooly are just silly.

oscar:
Big 10 road record: 32-43 (.427)
Last 6 years: 17-36 (.321)

For comparison:
Kruger: 13-15 (.480)
Altman: 6-22 (.214)
Asbury: 5-41 (.110)
Wooly: 8-40 (.167)
Huggs: 4-4 (.500)
Martin: 20-20 (.500)

[Cire]

We'll see.  But oscar sucked with some pretty talented rosters.  He will never have near the talent level of what he had at illinois.

[Pete]

We'll see.  But oscar sucked with some pretty talented rosters.  He will never have near the talent level of what he had at illinois.

I agree with this part, completely.  I have zero doubt of this.

[Mr Bread]

We'll see.  But oscar sucked with some pretty talented rosters.  He will never have near the talent level of what he had at illinois.

I agree with this part, completely.  I have zero doubt of this.

They weren't his kind of players.  VLBWIQ.

[kso_FAN]

IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball...

This is true for me too, and I won't deny it.

Part is due to great football, but under Frank K-State basketball was can't miss not only because we had good teams but because of Frank. Weber simply doesn't bring that factor, but I've come to the conclusion that whether or not he succeeds or fails we probably won't get that back any time soon, even on the next hire. The opportunity we had with Gottlieb would've been the closest thing, but that ship sailed. Even if oscar completely burns it down and fails and somehow gets fired after only 2 or 3 seasons, the next hire will probably be on the safe side and not a personality like Frank. Granted, it likely won't be something like oscar where its easy to cause division because the guy just got fired, but it will be safe.

[kougar24]

IMO, it’s tough for me to care about basketball...

This is true for me too, and I won't deny it.

Part is due to great football, but under Frank K-State basketball was can't miss not only because we had good teams but because of Frank. Weber simply doesn't bring that factor, but I've come to the conclusion that whether or not he succeeds or fails we probably won't get that back any time soon, even on the next hire. The opportunity we had with Gottlieb would've been the closest thing, but that ship sailed. Even if oscar completely burns it down and fails and somehow gets fired after only 2 or 3 seasons, the next hire will probably be on the safe side and not a personality like Frank. Granted, it likely won't be something like oscar where its easy to cause division because the guy just got fired, but it will be safe.

A "safe hire" by its very definition among EMAW elitaires will cause division. Again.