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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: gatoveintisiete on November 23, 2012, 11:21:05 PM
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What are your predictions for the career paths of Frank and oscar from this point, in an effort to have some continuity of responses here are some categories
Length of Tenure at current schools
Reason for end of tenure
High conference finish
Average conference finish
Will they coach at another Big conference school
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This seems like a lot of work.
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What are your predictions for the career paths of Frank and oscar from this point, in an effort to have some continuity of responses here are some categories
Length of Tenure at current schools
Frank 4 years at SC
oscar 4 years at KSU
Reason for end of tenure
oscar fired
Frank beats posse out of town for third major conference job, at middle to low end of the conference
High conference finish
oscar 6
Frank 6
Average conference finish
oscar 6
Frank 7
Will they coach at another Big conference school
Frank, yes
oscar, no
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What are your predictions for the career paths of Frank and oscar from this point, in an effort to have some continuity of responses here are some categories
Length of Tenure at current schools
Reason for end of tenure
High conference finish
Average conference finish
Will they coach at another Big conference school
I'll go first, Frank 3-5 years at usc 3 if he punches somebody, 5 if he keeps temper in check. oscar will retire from K-state either because of illness or old age.
Frank will probably top out at his standard 4th but my bet is he doesn't get higher than 5th. I think oscar has a couple top 3 finishes in him.
Frank ends up middle of the pack sec for the most part, oscar averages just above middle of pack with a few high finishes.
50-50 shot of Frank getting another big conf. job, if he does I would think cellar dwellar school. oscar is done after ksu.
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I disagree with Pete on everything but the last question.
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I disagree with Pete on everything but the last question.
Then you think Frank takes another major conference job after being fired? :dunno:
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What are your predictions for the career paths of Frank and oscar from this point, in an effort to have some continuity of responses here are some categories
Length of Tenure at current schools
Reason for end of tenure
Frank leaves after four seasons, 2 NIT, 1 NCAA one and done, for Miami (FLA)
oscar leaves for a return home to Wisconsin-Milw,1 NCCA (this year) 1 NIT (4th year) not fired, but close
High conference finish
Frank 3rd in SEC
oscar 5th (this year) in SEC
Average conference finish
Frank 6th in SEC
oscar 8th in Big 12
Will they coach at another Big conference school
Frank YES
Weber Hell NO
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I disagree with Pete on everything but the last question.
Then you think Frank takes another major conference job after being fired? :dunno:
He won't "beat the posse out of town".
He'll leave because he did a good job.
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I disagree with Pete on everything but the last question.
Then you think Frank takes another major conference job after being fired? :dunno:
He won't "beat the posse out of town".
You think he matriculates away from a hoard of grieving fans?
Not me. I think he gets them decent, see's that he prolly can't sustain it, and takes the first next decent job...thus restarting the clock on a 1.5M per year job. That's his MO.
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Length of Tenure at current schools
oscar-5
frank-2
Reason for end of tenure
oscar-retired/fired
frank-took a different job
High conference finish
oscar-4
frank-7
Average conference finish
oscar-6
frank-9
Will they coach at another Big conference school
oscar-no
frank-yes
*also worthy of note is that oscar coaches in a conference that has 10 teams in it and frank coaches in a conference that has 14 teams.
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I disagree with Pete on everything but the last question.
Then you think Frank takes another major conference job after being fired? :dunno:
He won't "beat the posse out of town".
You think he matriculates away from a hoard of grieving fans?
Not me. I think he gets them decent, see's that he prolly can't sustain it, and takes the first next decent job...thus restarting the clock on a 1.5M per year job. That's his MO.
I don't buy the line that he couldn't have sustained his success at K-State. His next job will be better.
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Length of Tenure at current schools
oscar:5 Frank:3
Reason for end of tenure
oscar: leaves for shitty big conference school Frank: leaves for a school in Florida (non big conference school)
High conference finish
oscar: 3 Frank: 8
Average conference finish
oscar: 5 Frank: 9
Will they coach at another Big conference school
oscar: Yes, he does well enough to get a job offer from some school like Northwestern or Utah or South Carolina and he leaves because we don't want him and he doesn't want to be here
Frank: Maybe
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oscar, out after 6 years...NCAA32, NIT, NCAA 64, NIT, NIT, Told he is fired in the tunnel after losing to TTech in Big12 Tourney
:dance:
Frank, gone in 3 years for a better job.
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I disagree with Pete on everything but the last question.
Then you think Frank takes another major conference job after being fired? :dunno:
He won't "beat the posse out of town".
You think he matriculates away from a hoard of grieving fans?
Not me. I think he gets them decent, see's that he prolly can't sustain it, and takes the first next decent job...thus restarting the clock on a 1.5M per year job. That's his MO.
I don't buy the line that he couldn't have sustained his success at K-State. His next job will be better.
I think HE bought the line that he couldn't sustain his success at K-State.
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I disagree with Pete on everything but the last question.
Then you think Frank takes another major conference job after being fired? :dunno:
He won't "beat the posse out of town".
You think he matriculates away from a hoard of grieving fans?
Not me. I think he gets them decent, see's that he prolly can't sustain it, and takes the first next decent job...thus restarting the clock on a 1.5M per year job. That's his MO.
I don't buy the line that he couldn't have sustained his success at K-State. His next job will be better.
I think HE bought the line that he couldn't sustain his success at K-State.
Nope
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Length of Tenure at current schools
oscar - 4
Frank -4
Reason for end of tenure
oscar - forced out
Frank - leave for a better job and/or job with (in his mind) better AD
High conference finish
oscar - 4
Frank - 5
Average conference finish
oscar - 6
Frank - 7
Will they coach at another Big conference school
oscar - No
Frank - Yes
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I think oscar is gone in 3.
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oscar: will be here 5 years. three straight NCAAs, no postseason at all, NIT, "resigns". He'll probably move on a longterm mid major job.
Frank: don't care.
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oscar: goes to the NCAA this year, crashes and burns from there on out, walks out of town in 4 years
Frank: comically bad season this year, improves next year falls a little a third and finds a job in FL after that. FIU, FAU, USF, UCF, UM etc..
I bet frank will get in trouble atleast once in south carolina.
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I am with trim. Basically, Frank is a good coach and oscar is not. Whatever those numbers are.
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It will be great after Miami joins the Big 12 to have our two most recent successful coaches come face Steve Henson at the Octagon. Just great.
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I still remain unsold on oscar. I wish it were otherwise and I hope he proves me wrong. :blank:
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Yeah. I would be very happy to be wrong. Also looking forward to tucker reaction after KU games. Will pro-establishment narrative override "KU is our measuring stick" narrative? Will be a great moment for cognitive dissonance.
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oscar: Crash and burn. No NCAAs ever.
Frank: Sweet 16. NCAAs every year starting next year.
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oscar: Crash and burn. No NCAAs ever.
Frank: Sweet 16. NCAAs every year starting next year.
This is it - oscar here for a max of 3 yrs. The touchy-feely, hugs all around crap fails miserably.
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and finds a job in FL after that. FIU, FAU, USF, UCF, UM etc..
there is a great disparity in those jobs
I am with trim. Basically, Frank is a good coach and oscar is not. Whatever those numbers are.
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oscar will make the round of 32 this year, NIT next year, and whiff his third.
Frank will take another job as soon as he gets South Carolina into the tournament, probably in his third year.
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So what I am getting here is two pretty average coaches, neither expected to achieve any level of greatness, one that is entertaining in the press room and one that isn't, one that left the program and one that wants to coach it. I think I am ready to move on now and just pull for the cats.
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Look at the situation that each one of them is in. Think of what the expectations would have been for Frank had he been here this year with this roster. They are not comparable coaches.
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Kstate is not South Carolina. This seems to be escaping some folks.
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I am with trim. Basically, Frank is a good coach and oscar is not. Whatever those numbers are.
I tend to agree with this, except I wonder if SC was too much for frank (I understand that is an arrogant thing to say as a KSU fan, but, like Beasley - and the residual effects/recruits of Beasley - aren't walking through that door).
I think oscar will ultimately fail at KSU, but it will be a slow death. Like when a salesman gets close to his quota every quarter.
My hope is that after Weber fails, that we are in good enough shape to hire Pearl (hopefully Pearl can get a shot at a smaller school or something), but I doubt it. I wouldn't want Dougie after Weber.
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Look at the situation that each one of them is in. Think of what the expectations would have been for Frank had he been here this year with this roster. They are not comparable coaches.
You can apply this to their contemporaneous tenures at Illinois and KSU the previous five seasons. Frank substantially outperformed oscar. Frank succeeded, oscar failed. Frank left for another job, oscar got fired. If they had swapped schools, Frank would have succeeded at Illinois (at least as much as he did at KSU) and oscar would have failed at KSU (at least as much as he did at Illinois). They are not comparable coaches.
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So what I am getting here is two pretty average coaches, neither expected to achieve any level of greatness, one that is entertaining in the press room and one that isn't, one that left the program and one that wants to coach it. I think I am ready to move on now and just pull for the cats.
You either have trouble reading or unclear about how bad USC is right now. I think it is pretty close to a consensus that Frank is a better coach than Weber and is better than average. When people say Frank's average finish in the SEC is 6 you need to remember that there are 14 teams in the SEC and UK, Mizzou, and Florida will always be better than USC.
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I think Weber will be here at least 8 years. NCAA 3, NIT 5 and "retires".
As for Frank, I :dunno: I think he will do quite well for South Car standards and leave for a better job (better defined by one he wants).
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Length of Tenure at current schools
oscar - 5 (I'm an optimist)
Frank - 4
Reason for end of tenure
oscar - Fired
Frank - Better job
High conference finish
Frank - 5
oscar - 5
Average conference finish
oscar - 6.5
Frank - 7
Will they coach at another Big conference school
Frank - yes
oscar - no
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Ok here is what I will say, Frank has already had his best years as a basketball coach, he will never again have the talent he had early at k-state, you guys have pissed me off and I will revise Franks level of success at usc to suck for 3 years, fired and on to halftime commentator. Didn't want to have to do this but BOOK IT!! oscar will remain at average status unless he shocks us with recruiting. You guys are the recruiting experts, did Frank bring in Pullen, Clemente, Kelly? Imo those were the difference maker players in our run, The only guy that came in after them with a chance to is Angel, love the other guys but they are complementary type players and we have a roster full of them right now and won't do anything big because of it. As stated before many times Frank knew this.
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Should call it the Jake Martin Era
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I think Weber will be here at least 8 years. NCAA 3, NIT 5 and "retires".
As for Frank, I :dunno: I think he will do quite well for South Car standards and leave for a better job (better defined by one he wants).
i just rough ridin' throw up thinking about how true that statement might be.
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Ok here is what I will say, Frank has already had his best years as a basketball coach, he will never again have the talent he had early at k-state, you guys have pissed me off and I will revise Franks level of success at usc to suck for 3 years, fired and on to halftime commentator. Didn't want to have to do this but BOOK IT!! oscar will remain at average status unless he shocks us with recruiting. You guys are the recruiting experts, did Frank bring in Pullen, Clemente, Kelly? Imo those were the difference maker players in our run, The only guy that came in after them with a chance to is Angel, love the other guys but they are complementary type players and we have a roster full of them right now and won't do anything big because of it. As stated before many times Frank knew this.
Don't be Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). '08 was the only year that you can attribute Frank's success to the talent on the floor. Show me the ranks of his recruiting classes after that. He knows how to coach non-talented players. Get lots of rebounds, especially on the offensive end, and hustle your ass off on the defensive end. oscar apparently doesn't know how to coach that. I saw one player hustle the entire game yesterday, maybe two. And guess how much oscar seemed to care. I literally have no idea how you think Frank is worse. Look at their past 4 years. It's not even close.
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BOOK IT!!
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BOOK IT!!
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_kz0mbyfMDs1qb3mmfo1_500.jpg&hash=4e3a9e188328cc4cb9f8a5e240f0e7278d110d39)
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Ok here is what I will say, Frank has already had his best years as a basketball coach, he will never again have the talent he had early at k-state, you guys have pissed me off and I will revise Franks level of success at usc to suck for 3 years, fired and on to halftime commentator. Didn't want to have to do this but BOOK IT!! oscar will remain at average status unless he shocks us with recruiting. You guys are the recruiting experts, did Frank bring in Pullen, Clemente, Kelly? Imo those were the difference maker players in our run, The only guy that came in after them with a chance to is Angel, love the other guys but they are complementary type players and we have a roster full of them right now and won't do anything big because of it. As stated before many times Frank knew this.
Don't be Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). '08 was the only year that you can attribute Frank's success to the talent on the floor. Show me the ranks of his recruiting classes after that. He knows how to coach non-talented players. Get lots of rebounds, especially on the offensive end, and hustle your ass off on the defensive end. oscar apparently doesn't know how to coach that. I saw one player hustle the entire game yesterday, maybe two. And guess how much oscar seemed to care. I literally have no idea how you think Frank is worse. Look at their past 4 years. It's not even close.
What a second, did you just go all Dax and call this team untalented?
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Ok here is what I will say, Frank has already had his best years as a basketball coach, he will never again have the talent he had early at k-state, you guys have pissed me off and I will revise Franks level of success at usc to suck for 3 years, fired and on to halftime commentator. Didn't want to have to do this but BOOK IT!! oscar will remain at average status unless he shocks us with recruiting. You guys are the recruiting experts, did Frank bring in Pullen, Clemente, Kelly? Imo those were the difference maker players in our run, The only guy that came in after them with a chance to is Angel, love the other guys but they are complementary type players and we have a roster full of them right now and won't do anything big because of it. As stated before many times Frank knew this.
Don't do this to yourself.
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Ok here is what I will say, Frank has already had his best years as a basketball coach, he will never again have the talent he had early at k-state, you guys have pissed me off and I will revise Franks level of success at usc to suck for 3 years, fired and on to halftime commentator. Didn't want to have to do this but BOOK IT!! oscar will remain at average status unless he shocks us with recruiting. You guys are the recruiting experts, did Frank bring in Pullen, Clemente, Kelly? Imo those were the difference maker players in our run, The only guy that came in after them with a chance to is Angel, love the other guys but they are complementary type players and we have a roster full of them right now and won't do anything big because of it. As stated before many times Frank knew this.
Don't be Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). '08 was the only year that you can attribute Frank's success to the talent on the floor. Show me the ranks of his recruiting classes after that. He knows how to coach non-talented players. Get lots of rebounds, especially on the offensive end, and hustle your ass off on the defensive end. oscar apparently doesn't know how to coach that. I saw one player hustle the entire game yesterday, maybe two. And guess how much oscar seemed to care. I literally have no idea how you think Frank is worse. Look at their past 4 years. It's not even close.
What a second, did you just go all Dax and call this team untalented?
They're talented because Frank coached them up. The last 3 year's of their tenure, Illinois had 3 top 25 classes. K-State had 1, and without Wally Judge it would not have been.
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oscar won't make it past year 4. Unless Currie gtfooh, then maybe 3. won't make an ncaa in the next 3 years, probably ever.
tucks will turn when half of bram is red and blue and seff beats us 78-40.
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I'm glad we got a coach that can win without someone else's players.
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Next 3-5 years both will probably have similar results. oscar is good enough to be decent after inheriting a solid program as long as he avoids a collapse like he had last year. Frank is good enough to build SC into a solid program like he did at K-State. Next 5 years both probably have a couple NCAAs and couple NITs while going a bit above .500 in league play.
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I think both coaches have similar results at the their respective schools. Frank will forever bounce around. He'll never have a "home." oscar will be with us until KSU decides they don't want to have him anymore. I think oscar would stick around after great years and after bad years, is my point.
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Ok here is what I will say, Frank has already had his best years as a basketball coach, he will never again have the talent he had early at k-state, you guys have pissed me off and I will revise Franks level of success at usc to suck for 3 years, fired and on to halftime commentator. Didn't want to have to do this but BOOK IT!! oscar will remain at average status unless he shocks us with recruiting. You guys are the recruiting experts, did Frank bring in Pullen, Clemente, Kelly? Imo those were the difference maker players in our run, The only guy that came in after them with a chance to is Angel, love the other guys but they are complementary type players and we have a roster full of them right now and won't do anything big because of it. As stated before many times Frank knew this.
Don't do this to yourself.
gatowhatever may be Kim Carnes sock so I'm treating him as such, nothing it says should be treated seriously or responded to
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Don't do this to yourself.
gatowhatever may be Kim Carnes sock so I'm treating him as such, nothing it says should be treated seriously or responded to
Good catch, I will keep this in mind.
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Lot of wise soothsayers sitting on the sidelines for this thread :sadpeek: :zip:
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Frank will have a middle of the pack SEC team and will move on to another team in 4 years.
oscar will be gone in 4 years. Either fired or on to a major BBall school.
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I am preparing myself for Frank to begin turning elite mentions into commitments at the same time oscar is slowly bleeding us out.
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Where the SEC will be once Frank has a couple years. I expect Frank could hit the top of his tier, but thats the peak of the program. Winning consistently in conference to contend for a league title has never been his strong suit.
SEC:
Kentucky
Florida
Missouri
Vandy
Alabama
Tennessee
South Carolina
Arkansas
Georgia
A&M
Mississippi
Mississippi St
Auburn
LSU
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I am not sure i can put MU on a higher plane than Ark and I believe Frank can and will have as much success at SoCar as MU will in the SEC once he has it going.
To me, FLA and UK are the only elite SEC jobs and UK, ARK and MU are the only schools that even care about hoops.
The things that made Frank a success at Kstate will also work in the SEC and he is closer to his recruiting base.
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Mizzou is a better program than Arkansas is now, and has been for nearly 20 years. Mizzou has no reason or excuse why they shouldn't remain firmly ahead of Arkansas. I refuse to let Arkansas get some prestige bump from a 20 year old natty.
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What are your predictions for the career paths of Frank and oscar from this point, in an effort to have some continuity of responses here are some categories
Length of Tenure at current schools
Frank 4 years at SC
oscar 10+ years at KSU
Reason for end of tenure
oscar retires after several Big 12 titles. His departure is met with tears of joy and sadness.
Frank fired for affair and becomes the head coach at a school in the SWAC.
High conference finish
oscar 1
Frank 8
Average conference finish
oscar 3
Frank 7
Will they coach at another Big conference school
Frank, Yes, after years of searching.
oscar, No, he retires.
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Mizzou is a better program than Arkansas is now, and has been for nearly 20 years. Mizzou has no reason or excuse why they shouldn't remain firmly ahead of Arkansas. I refuse to let Arkansas get some prestige bump from a 20 year old natty.
I agree for the most part, though I'm convinced Haith could collapse that program. Not sure if he will, but I think he has potential.
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Mizzou is a better program than Arkansas is now, and has been for nearly 20 years. Mizzou has no reason or excuse why they shouldn't remain firmly ahead of Arkansas. I refuse to let Arkansas get some prestige bump from a 20 year old natty.
While every coaching search and hire has proven your point, I believe Anderson will do better than Haith over the next few years, at least partly because the fan base and support is better at Arkansas - MU fans often pro fans first, MU athletics are clearly second fiddle at best in STL and KC
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Where the SEC will be once Frank has a couple years. I expect Frank could hit the top of his tier, but thats the peak of the program. Winning consistently in conference to contend for a league title has never been his strong suit.
SEC:
Kentucky
Florida
Missouri
Vandy
Alabama
Tennessee
South Carolina
Arkansas
Georgia
A&M
Mississippi
Mississippi St
Auburn
LSU
What a crapfest of a hoops conference, 14 teams or not, if you are not top 5 in that you are not trying very hard.
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maybe martin's best trait is an ability to recognize talent (and with that, an willingness, bordering on eagerness, to cut bait when he's been wrong). he signed a lot of players that were better than their ratings, and he was in early on a lot more that ended up elsewhere.
i haven't followed weber enough to know if this is accurate, but a glance at his career recruiting and winning trends would suggest that he might not be terribly good at the same.
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maybe martin's staff best trait is an ability to recognize talent (and with that, an willingness, bordering on eagerness, to cut bait when he's been wrong). he signed a lot of players that were better than their ratings, and he was in early on a lot more that ended up elsewhere.
i haven't followed weber enough to know if this is accurate, but a glance at his career recruiting and winning trends would suggest that he might not be terribly good at the same.
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Frank will make a couple tourneys starting next year, with really crappy seeds, move on to a better school that's been down.
oscar will be on the beach milking the redic buyout currie gave him.
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Lots of folks haven't seen South Carolina's commitment lists for 2013 and 2014.
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4, 3, 3, 2 vs 4, 3 :dunno:
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Lots of folks haven't seen South Carolina's commitment lists for 2013 and 2014.
yeah.
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martin's staff best trait is an ability to recognize talent.
that's certainly possible. i really have no idea.
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Lots of folks haven't seen South Carolina's commitment lists for 2013 and 2014.
yeah.
horrid talking point
see players getting 'franked'
Recruiting lists only matter in year 3 of the player's eligibility.
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martin's staff best trait is an ability to recognize talent.
that's certainly possible. i really have no idea.
Luckily for Frank, this staff followed a lunatic on a downward spiral to a program that hasn't been to an ncaa tournament since I honestly don't know when.
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Length of Tenure at current schools
Frank - 6 years
oscar - 3 years
Reason for end of tenure
Frank - Finally recruits a kid he thinks is tough, but is a whiny bitch. Whiny bitch files complaint, history.
oscar - 1 NCAA tourney, followed by 2 NIT seasons isn't acceptable anymore
High conference finish
Frank - 3rd in the East
oscar - 4th
Average conference finish
Frank - 4.5 in the East
oscar - 6.5
Will they coach at another Big conference school
Frank - Will get into broadcasting
oscar - Yes...someplace like TCU that is desperate
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What I know is this...Frank will never coach here again.
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Careful. This is on record.
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Careful. This is on record.
I know it's on record. Although I liked Frank, he'll never coach here again. Too much whatever under the bridge.
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Mods, let the record show those bold words. Make sure bones129 can't delete them later and deny it.
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JFC, we gave Jim Wooldridge five full years without even once going to the NIT because our insufferable tuck fan base thought he was a good guy and close to turning the corner. These people have short memories and are easily distracted and are generally very accepting of mediocrity.
How could anyone reasonably think oscar isn't getting five years here at the bare minimum.
We're riding with this dude for the long haul.
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Careful. This is on record.
Only willing to talk off the record. Thread too intense for me.
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Jim got 6.
And it's a different athletics world. No postseason at all over 2 years and oscar is likely gone and without a doubt after 3.
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Jim got 6.
And it's a different athletics world. No postseason at all over 2 years and oscar is likely gone and without a doubt after 3.
I'd like to think so, but we've got a pretty Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) fan base, Fan.
The Altman/Asbury/Wooldridge 20 year span happened for a reason.
Hell, we signed the #1 recruting class five years ago and people area convinced it's impossible to recruit to Manhattan and that stars are meaningless.
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Jim got 6.
And it's a different athletics world. No postseason at all over 2 years and oscar is likely gone and without a doubt after 3.
I'd like to think so, but we've got a pretty Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) fan base, Fan.
The Altman/Asbury/Wooldridge 20 year span happened for a reason.
Hell, we signed the #1 recruting class five years ago and people area convinced it's impossible to recruit to Manhattan and that stars are meaningless.
I don't completely disagree about our fans, but the state of the program is much more like when Altman became coach, not Wooly. Altman's .333 league winning didn't cut it. Now, our fans may accept a middling NIT program, but not the absolute bottom that Jim brought.
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I think if Currie leaves after this year or possibly next, we might get a new coach after year 4 (just depends on how bad the team crashes after this year). I dunno. Probably year 5. I think Self will have no problem shoving it into Webs as deep as it can go, so maybe that will get the tucks all riled up.
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I think if Currie leaves after this year or possibly next, we might get a new coach after year 4 (just depends on how bad the team crashes after this year).
This was my logic. If Currie stays, wabash is right.
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Jim Wooldridge would have made the tournament with these players, right? Can we all agree on that?
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Jim Wooldridge would have made the tournament with these players, right? Can we all agree on that?
Not necessarily. Jim had decent talent, probably not quite this much, but close.
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Jim Wooldridge would have made the tournament with these players, right? Can we all agree on that?
Jim Wooldridge was pretty snakebiten, Jakesie. When it came to losing, I wouldn't put anything past him.
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Jim Wooldridge would have made the tournament with these players, right? Can we all agree on that?
absolutely not. In 50 tries, it wouldn't happen. Wooly is a loser by the strictist definition. He loses. He wouldn't have made it with any of Franks teams either. He would make it with Self's talent, but would have zero conference titles over the past seven years with those same KU rosters.
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Just looked it up. Jim Wooldridge would win the Big 12 and probably make the Final 4 with this roster, DEFINITELY the Elite 8. Just think of what Asbury could have done with it....
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martin's staff best trait is an ability to recognize talent.
that's certainly possible. i really have no idea.
Luckily for Frank, this staff followed a lunatic on a downward spiral to a program that hasn't been to an ncaa tournament since I honestly don't know when.
Mixed Nutz is so butthurt about Frank that he won't give him credit for something that all head coaches get credit for. Frank hires own assistants right? I may be wrong, someone please tell me if I am.
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Length of Tenure at current schools
oscar: 6
Frank: 3
Reason for end of tenure
oscar: Fired
Frank: Leaves for another job
High conference finish
oscar: 4
Frank: 3
Average conference finish
oscar: 6
Frank: 5
Will they coach at another Big conference school
oscar: No
Frank: Yes
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Length of Tenure
Frank - 5
oscar - 6
Reason for end of tenure
Frank - Who knows? With Frank there is always his temper lurking like a shark tail in the curve of expected outcomes, but I think that it is reasonable to expect that he is average there, which would make him a certifiable SC hoops legend. A well respected coach in a conference that allows him to make the tourney/NIT more than he otherwise would in a different conference. I'll say 4 post-seasons, probably 2 bubble teams, 2 NIT. 1 Tourney to 3 NIT if I had to nail something down.
oscar - '12- NCAA rd 32, '13 Bubble lose 1st rd, '14 NIT 2 seed, '15 Bubble, '16 NIT '17 Meltdown
Conference Play
Not sure if anyone posting in this thread noticed, but the SEC abandoned divisional play. The divisions don't matter for seeding in the conference tournament and they don't matter much for the 18 game schedule. So I'm going to list what I think Frank is going to do in the 14 team confy.
Frank - http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/conferences/standings/_/id/23/year/2012/sec-conference (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/conferences/standings/_/id/23/year/2012/sec-conference) 10-6 got you 2nd place a lot of years in the SEC. I think Frank gets 5 this year, and averages 9.5 after that. 10 wins should be good enough for Frank to make the post-season every year. Frank gets 6 games against Mississippi St., Auburn and LSU and 3 against UK, Florida, Tenn.
oscar - round robin means 6-8 brutal/toss-up games a year. 6-8 winnable games and 2-4 freebies. oscar averages 9 wins. Finishes in the top 4 two or three times, but closer to 5 and the middle of the pack than ever threatening top 2. Unfortunately as has been repeatedly speculated around these parts this will be good enough for a long comfortable tenure, followed by the tide finally turning, likely on the back of KU's 200th victory in the series by some ungodly point differential, with the media absolutely killing oscar while Frank is smiling in March and Bill Self is cutting nets on a ladder all across America.
Will they coach at another Big conference school
Frank - Yes.
oscar - Probably.
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What are your predictions for the career paths of Frank and oscar from this point, in an effort to have some continuity of responses here are some categories
Length of Tenure at current schools
Frank - 4 yrs
oscar - 4 yrs
Reason for end of tenure
Frank - fired for losing
oscar - fired for losing
High conference finish
Frank - 8th
oscar - 4th (this year)
Average conference finish
Frank - 10th
oscar - 8th
Will they coach at another Big conference school
Frank - no
oscar - no
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weber isn't going to crash and burn here, as much as i'd like for him to. he's a good bball coach, he'll be here for as long as he wants.
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this is just a placeholder, I will come back and edit this later
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Length of Tenure at current schools
oscar - 5
Frank - 4
Reason for end of tenure
oscar - Retires/Resigns
Frank - Leaves for FSU/Miami/Florida
High conference finish
oscar - 4th
Frank - 4th
Average conference finish
oscar - 5th
Frank - 7th (average will be skewed because of this year)
Will they coach at another Big conference school
oscar - No
Frank - Yes
I expect a lot of bubble-ish seasons from oscar. Frank thrived on big wins, especially post 2009. I just can't see a scenario where we routinely beat good (non-ku) teams on the road like Frank did.
My guess is that we'll slowly decline, and have an awful season in oscar's 5th year. He'll gracefully retire without controversy.
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What are your predictions for the career paths of Frank and oscar from this point, in an effort to have some continuity of responses here are some categories
I originally thought that Frank would have a tough time at USC given the state of their program, but the Thornwell commit coupled with a pretty shallow SEC makes me more inclined to think Frank will make good things happen there. I don't think he is going to take the next flight out of town either. Frank is pretty young, and I think he can and will build USC into what he had at KSU. A consistently solid team that's ceiling is competing for a conference title and will be on the outside of the NCAA bubble in the down years.
I really can't judge oscar yet. I think the fact that he and his staff have seen success and failure will at least have them motivated for a while. We'll see if that can be sustained along with K-State's program. The recruiting trail will show us this imo, because I think we have capable tacticians on the staff. I think that they will be successful enough for oscar to coach here until he chooses to leave on his own accord depending on staff turnover. Similar success to Frank but I'm less optimistic for the ceiling with oscar at K-State.
Length of Tenure
Frank - 5 or 6 years
oscar - 7 or 8 years
Reason for end of tenure
Frank - Takes "Dream Job" at some bigger name school in the East/ Southeast
oscar - Retires/ Resigns
High conference finish
Frank - 2nd
oscar - 3rd
Average conference finish
Frank - 4 or 5 out of 14 (which is pretty good)
oscar - 5 out of 10 (which is less good but not bad enough to get oscar run from Manhattan)
Will they coach at another Big conference school
Frank - Definitely
oscar - Never
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this is just a placeholder, I will come back and edit this later
I like this. A reserved spot.
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weber isn't going to crash and burn here, as much as i'd like for him to. he's a good bball coach, he'll be here for as long as he wants.
It will more closely resemble the death of a star in distant galaxy.
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weber isn't going to crash and burn here, as much as i'd like for him to. he's a good bball coach, he'll be here for as long as he wants.
Very :confused: by this. Perhaps we're defining "good" in completely different ways? Just in case that's not the case, what would lead you to use such a positive word when describing oscar?
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what would lead you to use such a positive word when describing oscar?
he's done good things and bad things. it's really hard to do as well as he has at times in his career, i don't think it is likely that he just had a run of good luck. i also don't think that his failures were runs of poor luck. but there may be more space between bad and weber, or even mediocre and weber, than some here are eager to admit.
i've posted many times that i think it is highly improbable that currie would have hired a better coach than weber, had he hired someone else. my discontent is not that he hired weber, but that he ran off a better coach in order to do so.
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what would lead you to use such a positive word when describing oscar?
he's done good things and bad things. it's really hard to do as well as he has at times in his career, i don't think it is likely that he just had a run of good luck. i also don't think that his failures were runs of poor luck. but there may be more space between bad and weber, or even mediocre and weber, than some here are eager to admit.
i've posted many times that i think it is highly improbable that currie would have hired a better coach than weber, had he hired someone else. my discontent is not that he hired weber, but that he ran off a better coach in order to do so.
didn't use nazi, not a real sys post.
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what would lead you to use such a positive word when describing oscar?
he's done good things and bad things. it's really hard to do as well as he has at times in his career, i don't think it is likely that he just had a run of good luck. i also don't think that his failures were runs of poor luck. but there may be more space between bad and weber, or even mediocre and weber, than some here are eager to admit.
i've posted many times that i think it is highly improbable that currie would have hired a better coach than weber, had he hired someone else. my discontent is not that he hired weber, but that he ran off a better coach in order to do so.
Good post. I agree that its not either good/bad luck.
To me last year's Weber was even more bizarre because it was so much like Mangino's last year at KU.
They were 15-3/4-1, ranked in the Top 25 (in January) and coming off a win over a Top 10 team (OSU) that ended up going to the final 4. Even beat another Top 10 team a couple weeks later (MSU). Then completely fell apart.
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Currie couldn't have hired anyone better, but he could have hired someone not as bad.
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But I agree not keeping Frank in Manhattan was far worse than hiring oscar.
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Currie couldn't have hired anyone better, but he could have hired someone not as bad.
less of a bumblefuck, you mean? yeah, that wouldn't have been hard.
i'll add, before you do so, that there were fantastic options available (pearl :love:), but currie would not have considered them.
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Currie couldn't have hired anyone better, but he could have hired someone not as bad.
less of a bumblefuck, you mean? yeah, that wouldn't have been hard.
i'll add, before you do so, that there were fantastic options available (pearl :love:), but currie would not have considered them.
I mean someone that wasn't fired because of losing would have been "not as bad".
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I mean someone that wasn't fired because of losing would have been "not as bad".
just one facet of his brand.
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I have enjoyed sys' posts in this thread. Maybe it was already common knowledge, but I didn't fully understand his viewpoint or where he was coming from until this thread.
:thumbs:
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Bruceketball: Manhattan Edition (5 years)
1 NCAA tournament (2013)
2 NITs ('14, '15)
1 no postseason ('16)
1 CBI ('17)
FIRED
Frank: USC Edition (8 years)
1 no postseason this year
1 NIT next year
5 NCAA's and an NIT in the next 6 years
Hired away by another BCS school
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I have enjoyed sys' posts in this thread. Maybe it was already common knowledge, but I didn't fully understand his viewpoint or where he was coming from until this thread.
my main problems with weber (as opposed to currie) are 1), that he's incredibly boring. our best case scenario with him is like purdue or something. some bland team that wins games but is entirely absent from the national scene. worst case is the same, minus the wins. and 2), he's considered a proven coach, if he fails here, especially if he does so slowly, it will lead to the perception that kstate is a school where it is hard to win. huggins and martin will be viewed as charismatic anomalies. weber and our pre-huggins 20 year slide will be the norm. that wouldn't have been true with a splashy, "risky" hire like gottlieb, or pearl, or even the old guy.
i mean, it's also that he's the guy that currie hired. but if i try to separate that part out.
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I have enjoyed sys' posts in this thread. Maybe it was already common knowledge, but I didn't fully understand his viewpoint or where he was coming from until this thread.
my main problems with weber (as opposed to currie) are 1), that he's incredibly boring. our best case scenario with him is like purdue or something. some bland team that wins games but is entirely absent from the national scene. worst case is the same, minus the wins. and 2), he's considered a proven coach, if he fails here, especially if he does so slowly, it will lead to the perception that kstate is a school where it is hard to win. huggins and martin will be viewed as charismatic anomalies. weber and our pre-huggins 20 year slide will be the norm. that wouldn't have been true with a splashy, "risky" hire like gottlieb, or pearl, or even the old guy.
i mean, it's also that he's the guy that currie hired. but if i try to separate that part out.
Very well said.
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I have enjoyed sys' posts in this thread. Maybe it was already common knowledge, but I didn't fully understand his viewpoint or where he was coming from until this thread.
my main problems with weber (as opposed to currie) are 1), that he's incredibly boring. our best case scenario with him is like purdue or something. some bland team that wins games but is entirely absent from the national scene. worst case is the same, minus the wins. and 2), he's considered a proven coach, if he fails here, especially if he does so slowly, it will lead to the perception that kstate is a school where it is hard to win. huggins and martin will be viewed as charismatic anomalies. weber and our pre-huggins 20 year slide will be the norm. that wouldn't have been true with a splashy, "risky" hire like gottlieb, or pearl, or even the old guy.
i mean, it's also that he's the guy that currie hired. but if i try to separate that part out.
Very well said.
Whatever, not real K-State fans.
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I have enjoyed sys' posts in this thread. Maybe it was already common knowledge, but I didn't fully understand his viewpoint or where he was coming from until this thread.
my main problems with weber (as opposed to currie) are 1), that he's incredibly boring. our best case scenario with him is like purdue or something. some bland team that wins games but is entirely absent from the national scene. worst case is the same, minus the wins. and 2), he's considered a proven coach, if he fails here, especially if he does so slowly, it will lead to the perception that kstate is a school where it is hard to win. huggins and martin will be viewed as charismatic anomalies. weber and our pre-huggins 20 year slide will be the norm. that wouldn't have been true with a splashy, "risky" hire like gottlieb, or pearl, or even the old guy.
i mean, it's also that he's the guy that currie hired. but if i try to separate that part out.
That is a great point and oscar (and Izzo and Keady) will be first and last in line to tell everyone who will listen that it was K-State and not him that led to it. "It was one of the greatest eight-year runs in K-State history. I worked as hard as was humanly possible everyday for those guys, guess it wasn't enough for some of them." :dubious: It's not just the losing and the horrid to watch brand of basketball, but that after it's all said and done he blames it on the program. "I maxed out that dump, can't help it if it's still a rough ridin' dump." oscar!! :shakesfist:
Trim what do you think of oscar as the ball cancer of coaches? Yeah you beat it, but you're down a nut. Sounds pretty close to me as far as similes go seeing as a simile, to be perfect, must both illustrate and ennoble the subject.
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I have enjoyed sys' posts in this thread. Maybe it was already common knowledge, but I didn't fully understand his viewpoint or where he was coming from until this thread.
my main problems with weber (as opposed to currie) are 1), that he's incredibly boring. our best case scenario with him is like purdue or something. some bland team that wins games but is entirely absent from the national scene. worst case is the same, minus the wins. and 2), he's considered a proven coach, if he fails here, especially if he does so slowly, it will lead to the perception that kstate is a school where it is hard to win. huggins and martin will be viewed as charismatic anomalies. weber and our pre-huggins 20 year slide will be the norm. that wouldn't have been true with a splashy, "risky" hire like gottlieb, or pearl, or even the old guy.
i mean, it's also that he's the guy that currie hired. but if i try to separate that part out.
Very well said.
Whatever, not real K-State fans.
:lol: I've been officially designated with this title.
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I have enjoyed sys' posts in this thread. Maybe it was already common knowledge, but I didn't fully understand his viewpoint or where he was coming from until this thread.
my main problems with weber (as opposed to currie) are 1), that he's incredibly boring. our best case scenario with him is like purdue or something. some bland team that wins games but is entirely absent from the national scene. worst case is the same, minus the wins. and 2), he's considered a proven coach, if he fails here, especially if he does so slowly, it will lead to the perception that kstate is a school where it is hard to win. huggins and martin will be viewed as charismatic anomalies. weber and our pre-huggins 20 year slide will be the norm. that wouldn't have been true with a splashy, "risky" hire like gottlieb, or pearl, or even the old guy.
i mean, it's also that he's the guy that currie hired. but if i try to separate that part out.
That is a great point and oscar (and Izzo and Keady) will be first and last in line to tell everyone who will listen that it was K-State and not him that led to it. "It was one of the greatest eight-year runs in K-State history. I worked as hard as was humanly possible everyday for those guys, guess it wasn't enough for some of them." :dubious: It's not just the losing and the horrid to watch brand of basketball, but that after it's all said and done he blames it on the program. "I maxed out that dump, can't help it if it's still a rough ridin' dump." oscar!! :shakesfist:
Trim what do you think of oscar as the ball cancer of coaches? Yeah you beat it, but you're down a nut. Sounds pretty close to me as far as similes go seeing as a simile, to be perfect, must both illustrate and ennoble the subject.
That line about the best run in Illinois history - he used it last night. Some rando illini guy just tweeted me wanting details on the claim re: 80 games lost to injury the year after the national tourney run. I'm working on posting that whole segment on youtube. Bear with me.
Ball cancer analogy doesn't work; my remaining ball is super-powered, jeans fit better, great story, all in all not a bad deal. That first couple monthssucked for sure though.
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I have enjoyed sys' posts in this thread. Maybe it was already common knowledge, but I didn't fully understand his viewpoint or where he was coming from until this thread.
my main problems with weber (as opposed to currie) are 1), that he's incredibly boring. our best case scenario with him is like purdue or something. some bland team that wins games but is entirely absent from the national scene. worst case is the same, minus the wins. and 2), he's considered a proven coach, if he fails here, especially if he does so slowly, it will lead to the perception that kstate is a school where it is hard to win. huggins and martin will be viewed as charismatic anomalies. weber and our pre-huggins 20 year slide will be the norm. that wouldn't have been true with a splashy, "risky" hire like gottlieb, or pearl, or even the old guy.
i mean, it's also that he's the guy that currie hired. but if i try to separate that part out.
That is a great point and oscar (and Izzo and Keady) will be first and last in line to tell everyone who will listen that it was K-State and not him that led to it. "It was one of the greatest eight-year runs in K-State history. I worked as hard as was humanly possible everyday for those guys, guess it wasn't enough for some of them." :dubious: It's not just the losing and the horrid to watch brand of basketball, but that after it's all said and done he blames it on the program. "I maxed out that dump, can't help it if it's still a rough ridin' dump." oscar!! :shakesfist:
Trim what do you think of oscar as the ball cancer of coaches? Yeah you beat it, but you're down a nut. Sounds pretty close to me as far as similes go seeing as a simile, to be perfect, must both illustrate and ennoble the subject.
Ball cancer analogy doesn't work; my remaining ball is super-powered, jeans fit better, great story, all in all not a bad deal. That first couple monthssucked for sure though.
I think John Groce might be my super-powered nut. I haven't been this excited about college baskeball in general since after the NC game appearance. Like I bet you had some pretty great times with your bad nut until it turned on you. I wouldn't have been this way if not for having had and removed my bad nut (oscar). Like new lease on life, but it still left an indelible mark kind of thing. Is KSU cats men's hoops my Ball brand jar? :dunno: Might still have something here.
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Weber= :jerk:
Martin= :barf:
Currie= :flush: Oh, sorry, OP didn't ask about Currie
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Martin:
Year 1 - NIT
Year 2 - NCAA 32
Year 3 - NCAA 64
Hired away by Miami - Goes onto to be a living legend on South Beach. He will Frank a ton of players, but his street cred will allow him to sign better classes than Miami deserves. At some point one of his hotshot assistants will do something that involves South Beach and some recruits, and Frank will resign in disgrace/awesomeness. He will go on to be one of those talking heads that the world has forgiven for his transgressions because he is such a genuine guy. He will be the most beloved Cuban sports analyst that the world has ever known. He will do the job for way too long until he is senile and looks batshit crazy on TV, at which point our kids will talk about Frank Martin the same way we talk about Lee Corso. Then we will tell them to shut the eff up and respect their elders.
Weber:
Year 1 - NCAA 32
Year 2 - NCAA 64
Year 3 - Sweet Sixteen
Year 4 - NCAA 64
Year 5 - NCAA 32
Hired away by Purdue - Gene Keady gets his boy a job in his more natural element, the Big 10. Weber goes onto do very Weber-like things. He has learned from his past mistakes at Illinois and will be a good coach as long as he keeps good assistants around the program. He will never set the world on fire, but he will be a successful coach till he retires. People will inexplicably talk about the genius of his X's and O's till civilization collapses and all our records are lost and the oral tradition has let oscar fade from the memory of mankind. (For the record, I hate oscar Weber and John Currie, but not as much as I hate being wrong on record.)
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Martin:
Year 1 - NIT
Year 2 - NCAA 32
Year 3 - NCAA 64
Hired away by Miami - Goes onto to be a living legend on South Beach. He will Frank a ton of players, but his street cred will allow him to sign better classes than Miami deserves. At some point one of his hotshot assistants will do something that involves South Beach and some recruits, and Frank will resign in disgrace/awesomeness. He will go on to be one of those talking heads that the world has forgiven for his transgressions because he is such a genuine guy. He will be the most beloved Cuban sports analyst that the world has ever known. He will do the job for way too long until he is senile and looks batshit crazy on TV, at which point our kids will talk about Frank Martin the same way we talk about Lee Corso. Then we will tell them to shut the eff up and respect their elders.
Weber:
Year 1 - NCAA 32
Year 2 - NCAA 64
Year 3 - Sweet Sixteen
Year 4 - NCAA 64
Year 5 - NCAA 32
Hired away by Purdue - Gene Keady gets his boy a job in his more natural element, the Big 10. Weber goes onto do very Weber-like things. He has learned from his past mistakes at Illinois and will be a good coach as long as he keeps good assistants around the program. He will never set the world on fire, but he will be a successful coach till he retires. People will inexplicably talk about the genius of his X's and O's till civilization collapses and all our records are lost and the oral tradition has let oscar fade from the memory of mankind. (For the record, I hate oscar Weber and John Currie, but not as much as I hate being wrong on record.)
So he is going to take over the Purdue job when he is 62-years old? Not likely.
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what would lead you to use such a positive word when describing oscar?
he's done good things and bad things. it's really hard to do as well as he has at times in his career, i don't think it is likely that he just had a run of good luck. i also don't think that his failures were runs of poor luck. but there may be more space between bad and weber, or even mediocre and weber, than some here are eager to admit.
i've posted many times that i think it is highly improbable that currie would have hired a better coach than weber, had he hired someone else. my discontent is not that he hired weber, but that he ran off a better coach in order to do so.
Good post. I agree that its not either good/bad luck.
To me last year's Weber was even more bizarre because it was so much like Mangino's last year at KU.
They were 15-3/4-1, ranked in the Top 25 (in January) and coming off a win over a Top 10 team (OSU) that ended up going to the final 4. Even beat another Top 10 team a couple weeks later (MSU). Then completely fell apart.
It wasn't that bizarre to an Illini fan. We played like crap in many of the games that we won up until that point where we started losing. The OSU game was a victory only because Paul went off that night and could not be stopped (It was an anomaly). The MSU game was laughable. We won, but Green got injured and MSU missed at least 25 layups. Besides our awesome 38 - 33 loss to Penn State at home in 08, it was by far one of the worse college basketball games I've probably ever witnessed..The score was 42 - 41. Most Illini fans last year knew the wheels were going to fall off sooner or later. We just never passed the "eye test" even in games we won. I hope BAM does well for KSU, but he is really stubborn and is going to piss you guys off a lot. His ingame coaching drove me absolutely bat crap crazy lol. Needless to say, I dont miss him.
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Fun re-read
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A lot of dumbasses outed for sure.
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Man...what a read
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Some real gems in there
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Quite a bump. Still early, but oscar has been better than I expected and Frank has been worse.
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*yawn*
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It's still early, but this has gone well for K-State in the sense that people have to assume this is the easiest place in the world to win. Hire a fired coach who failed at his last job? He gets a conference championship in his first year and finishes in the top half of the conference a year they were projected to go, what 8th? Fire a coach that was very successful, even got to the Elite 8 in his 3rd year coaching? Well turns out he apparently can't have success at any other school.
Who wouldn't want to coach here? :love:
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It's still early, but this has gone well for K-State in the sense that people have to assume this is the easiest place in the world to win. Hire a fired coach who failed at his last job? He gets a conference championship in his first year and finishes in the top half of the conference a year they were projected to go, what 8th? Fire a coach that was very successful, even got to the Elite 8 in his 3rd year coaching? Well turns out he apparently can't have success at any other school.
Who wouldn't want to coach here? :love:
I googled oscar the other day. He made the tourney like 6 times, 2 NIT's, and got fired on his one of two losing seasons. Frank has had two insufferable seasons in a row. oscar is kicking gE's domes on a daily basis.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Weber_(basketball)
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It's still early, but this has gone well for K-State in the sense that people have to assume this is the easiest place in the world to win. Hire a fired coach who failed at his last job? He gets a conference championship in his first year and finishes in the top half of the conference a year they were projected to go, what 8th? Fire a coach that was very successful, even got to the Elite 8 in his 3rd year coaching? Well turns out he apparently can't have success at any other school.
Who wouldn't want to coach here? :love:
We were predicted to finish 5th along with Oklahoma. Still, a much better season than us Cat fans were expecting (and the rest of the world after we lost to Northern Colorado).
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fun bump
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We still give up backdoor cuts.