Thoughts on the Marshall Game

[mjrod]

Did I really have to go any further than Heupel?

Heupel was an exception.   How many others switched systems and became successful like Heuppel and his 7-5 season?

Rivers.

Kingsbury.

Henne.

Streetor/Dantzler.

Shaun Hill (maryland)

Suggs (Ga. Tech)

Tuiasosopo (Wash)

David Greene (GA)

Chris Leak

Clint Stoerner (ark)

Rather than just throw out names, why don't you demonstrate WHY those are relevant to the discussion.

[michigancat]

Seriously, your Dailey argument makes no sense whatsoever.  A much better argument would be Brandon Streetor at Clemson under Bowden.

You haven't shown a thing that says Dylan CAN get us to a bowl game...Has a team that failed to score an offensive TD against a I-AA team ever gone to a bowl game?

It makes perfect sense.  Dailey was an option QB under Solich.   He started in Callahan's WCO offense, and the team went 5-6.  The year before, the team went 10-3.   They switched systems, one that was primarily run to the WCO.   You're just ignoring it.  Perhaps someone else can help you out in history and figure it out.

Dylan was not an option quarterback under Bill Snyder.  Dylan had multiple games that he attempted 40+ passes.  Changing from Prince's system to Prince's system is not nearly as drastic as changing from Solich's to Callahan's.  If anything, Dylan was asked to make more difficult passing plays under Snyder's system.  Dylan should be much better prepared to run Prince's system than Dailey running Callahan's.

How many games did he have 40+ attempts?   He only had 220 attempts all year in 2004, the year he played 10 games.

Changing systems may not have been as drastic, but Snyder's system had a lot more to it than Prince's does, and the decision making process is very different.  When you've learned a system for 4 years, why is it that you believe it would be an easier transition?  I don't know what you expect out of Dylan, but it's clear you're expecting something he didn't do under Snyder's system either.   However, what is true, is that he's progressing under Prince's system.   Are you saying he isn't?

He attempted 40 passes vs. atm, OU, and tech.  In many of his ten games, he played less than a half.

I don't think his problems have anything to do with the system...I think it is mostly physical.  I didn't watch the first two games, so I can't comment on his decision making in those games compared with Marshall.  I thought his decision making was somewhat questionable against Marshall...not horrible...he just missed too many open receivers.

[michigancat]

Did I really have to go any further than Heupel?

Heupel was an exception.   How many others switched systems and became successful like Heuppel and his 7-5 season?

Rivers.

Kingsbury.

Henne.

Streetor/Dantzler.

Shaun Hill (maryland)

Suggs (Ga. Tech)

Tuiasosopo (Wash)

David Greene (GA)

Chris Leak

Clint Stoerner (ark)

Rather than just throw out names, why don't you demonstrate WHY those are relevant to the discussion.

All of those are QB's that switched systems and "became successful", which is what you requested.

[mjrod]

Did I really have to go any further than Heupel?

Heupel was an exception.   How many others switched systems and became successful like Heuppel and his 7-5 season?

Rivers.

Kingsbury.

Henne.

Streetor/Dantzler.

Shaun Hill (maryland)

Suggs (Ga. Tech)

Tuiasosopo (Wash)

David Greene (GA)

Chris Leak

Clint Stoerner (ark)

Rather than just throw out names, why don't you demonstrate WHY those are relevant to the discussion.

All of those are QB's that switched systems and "became successful", which is what you requested.

Last chance.  Let's see why you believe they "became successful".  Each one.  Go ahead.

[michigancat]

Bowl games.

Each one.

[mjrod]

Bowl games.

Each one.

You're pathetic.

[michigancat]

Bowl games.

Each one.

You're pathetic.

You disagree?

[mjrod]

Bowl games.

Each one.

You're pathetic.

You disagree?

It wasn't about disagreeing.  It was about showing us who mastered their system.   To you, it's a bowl game.  I don't consider that mastering a system because a team with a great defense, good special teams and an OK offense can get to a bowl game.

That says nothing of the QB.   But for you, that's how you get around trying to work at proving a point.

[Fausto]

He attempted 40 passes vs. atm, OU, and tech.

Only Tech & ATM did he have over 40 attempts.

Ohh, and Tuiasosopo did not play in a bowl game as a freshman.  Pretty sure that's the case for Stoerner as well.  Did Suggs even play in the bowl they went to his first season at GT?

[michigancat]

Bowl games.

Each one.

You're pathetic.

You disagree?

It wasn't about disagreeing.  It was about showing us who mastered their system.   To you, it's a bowl game.  I don't consider that mastering a system because a team with a great defense, good special teams and an OK offense can get to a bowl game.

That says nothing of the QB.   But for you, that's how you get around trying to work at proving a point.

It's too late for me to go through every one...but we went over kingsbury and Henne...Dantzler and Streeter combined for over 3000 yards and went to a bowl with a D that gave up 330 yards/ game.

What point am I trying to make other than I wish we had a QB with more physical talent than DM?

He attempted 40 passes vs. atm, OU, and tech.

Only Tech & ATM did he have over 40 attempts.

True, I looked at total stats...forgot about Webb's 3 attempts.  Dylan only had 38.

Ohh, and Tuiasosopo did not play in a bowl game as a freshman.  Pretty sure that's the case for Stoerner as well.  Did Suggs even play in the bowl they went to his first season at GT?

First season in a new system.

[mjrod]

Bowl games.

Each one.

You're pathetic.

You disagree?

It wasn't about disagreeing.  It was about showing us who mastered their system.   To you, it's a bowl game.  I don't consider that mastering a system because a team with a great defense, good special teams and an OK offense can get to a bowl game.

That says nothing of the QB.   But for you, that's how you get around trying to work at proving a point.

It's too late for me to go through every one...but we went over kingsbury and Henne...Dantzler and Streeter combined for over 3000 yards and went to a bowl with a D that gave up 330 yards/ game.

What point am I trying to make other than I wish we had a QB with more physical talent than DM?

Dantzler and Streeter also played in an ACC Conference that really wasn't that good and not against the best competition.

[michigancat]

Bowl games.

Each one.

You're pathetic.

You disagree?

It wasn't about disagreeing.  It was about showing us who mastered their system.   To you, it's a bowl game.  I don't consider that mastering a system because a team with a great defense, good special teams and an OK offense can get to a bowl game.

That says nothing of the QB.   But for you, that's how you get around trying to work at proving a point.

It's too late for me to go through every one...but we went over kingsbury and Henne...Dantzler and Streeter combined for over 3000 yards and went to a bowl with a D that gave up 330 yards/ game.

What point am I trying to make other than I wish we had a QB with more physical talent than DM?

Dantzler and Streeter also played in an ACC Conference that really wasn't that good and not against the best competition.

Bad competition makes it easier to win/compile good stats?

oh.

[mjrod]

I can see why now you didn't want to go over your names.

[Fausto]

Suggs just cracks me up.  A.J. Suggs?  Why not use Reggie Bush as the better example of success?  Or, if you are really big on remembering Suggs, how about the QB that beat him out at Tennessee before he transfered to GT...Casey Clausen?  He fits the requirements a lot better than Marques Tuiasosopo...who really played in one game for Washington his freshman year.  Casey was undefeated before running into the K-State buzzsaw. 

[michigancat]

I can see why now you didn't want to go over your names.

Lame.

Suggs just cracks me up.  A.J. Suggs?  Why not use Reggie Bush as the better example of success?  Or, if you are really big on remembering Suggs, how about the QB that beat him out at Tennessee before he transfered to GT...Casey Clausen?  He fits the requirements a lot better than Marques Tuiasosopo...who really played in one game for Washington his freshman year.  Casey was undefeated before running into the K-State buzzsaw. 

We aren't talking about true freshmen...we're talking about players in their first year in a new system.  Washington went to a bowl under Tuiasasopo his senior year, which was also Neuheisel's first year.  Heck, Mike Moschetti picked up Gary Barnett's new system well enough to go to a bowl in 99, too.  Suggs led GaTech to a bowl in 2002, which was Chan Gailey's first season.

[AzCat]

Snyder's system had a lot more to it than Prince's does, and the decision making process is very different.

Bullcrap.  If, as you've asserted, Snyder's system was far more complicated and Meier was able to master it sufficiently that Snyder put him on the field it's asinine to argue that he's having trouble because he's not able to master the far simpler system that's in place now.  The part he's having trouble with is the part where he drops back, runs through his progression, and (most importantly) delivers a catchable ball.  He seems to know the plays, he seems to locate receivers (the part he'd be having trouble with if, as you allege it was the new system that were responsible for his poor performance), but he's not able to consistently deliver catchable balls.  Do you even watch football?

[AzCat]

Dantzler and Streeter also played in an ACC Conference that really wasn't that good and not against the best competition.

And Meier has played against: an FAU team that would piss down their leg looking at a good Kansas 5A HS squad and a couple of other cupcakes from about as far from the shining center of the college football universe as you can possibly get.  If the QBs Rusty is discussing piled up stats because they were playing in an inferior major conference Meier should be throwing for 500+ YPG against the rubes we've been seeing this year.

[catzacker]

I don't see how this thread has gotten this long.  Meier is a subpar/average QB.  It seems as though the argument is whether KSU will make it to a bowl game inspite of Meier or whether KSU will make it to a bowl game because of our defense and special teams.  Instead of trying to find examples of QB's that did well in a new system, how about we evaluate Meier's play within this system?  Has the "system" really lead to the error in judgment or some awful throws Meier has made?  It'd be one thing if receivers were consistently going one way while Meier was throwing another way, or if DM was having trouble getting us aligned or making an audible....these things aren't happening (which is a good thing).  The errors DM is/has made aren't due to a "new system".  He's just a marginal QB.  If we make it to a bowl game, it'll be because of 2 things:  our defense and our special teams.  That isn't "not given DM credit" it's simply understanding that DM isn't  going to go out and be a play maker with his arm, and quite honestly, he shouldn't be asked to. 

[michigancat]

I don't see how this thread has gotten this long.  Meier is a subpar/average QB.  It seems as though the argument is whether KSU will make it to a bowl game inspite of Meier or whether KSU will make it to a bowl game because of our defense and special teams.  Instead of trying to find examples of QB's that did well in a new system, how about we evaluate Meier's play within this system?  Has the "system" really lead to the error in judgment or some awful throws Meier has made?  It'd be one thing if receivers were consistently going one way while Meier was throwing another way, or if DM was having trouble getting us aligned or making an audible....these things aren't happening (which is a good thing).  The errors DM is/has made aren't due to a "new system".  He's just a marginal QB.  If we make it to a bowl game, it'll be because of 2 things:  our defense and our special teams.  That isn't "not given DM credit" it's simply understanding that DM isn't  going to go out and be a play maker with his arm, and quite honestly, he shouldn't be asked to. 

Exactly.

[Kat Kid]

Holy crap.

Since when does Mj get to assign homework assignments for people and then not offer up any original research himself to back up any of his claims?

wtf.

nice work Rusty.

My feelings are kind of like what was expressed two posts up.

Dylan isn't a game breaker.  He is Trent Dilfer.  Our O need not turn it over, our D/ST will consistently keep us in/set up our O, we need to convert TD in RZ and stop settling for so many FG.  We don't need to have 80 yrd TDs like we used to.  Well, we may need to but we won't see that so just stop thinking about it.  In short, I think about every intangible goes our way this year.  We look like we can consistently win the TO battle, make smart game planning/in-game adjustments, have more passion on the sideline and do "the little things" to win games (assuming the flag fest saturday was an aberration)  I think this formula will result in the following:

ville: 25% chance of victory
Baylor: 60% chance of victory
Ok St.: 80% chance of victory
Nebraska: 40% chance of victory
Missouri: 35% chance of victory
Iowa State: 45% chance of victory
Colorado: 55% chance of victory
Texas 20% chance of victory
 ku: 50% chance of victory

I think we can get to 7 wins.  I really do.  I never imagined this after Illy State.  &@#% optimism right in its ass.

[Skycat]

Dylan isn't a game breaker.  He is Trent Dilfer.  Our O need not turn it over, our D/ST will consistently keep us in/set up our O, we need to convert TD in RZ and stop settling for so many FG.  We don't need to have 80 yrd TDs like we used to.  Well, we may need to but we won't see that so just stop thinking about it.  In short, I think about every intangible goes our way this year.  We look like we can consistently win the TO battle, make smart game planning/in-game adjustments, have more passion on the sideline and do "the little things" to win games (assuming the flag fest saturday was an aberration)

Exactly.

[AzCat]

Dylan isn't Trent Dilfer, if he were we'd be thinking "Big XII Championship" right now rather than "we might win 6". 

[Kat Kid]

Dylan isn't Trent Dilfer, if he were we'd be thinking "Big XII Championship" right now rather than "we might win 6". 

Dude, give it up.  This team just isn't that good.  So far we've exceeded expectations, the defense and special teams have been pleasant surprises and we might actually have a shot at beating Lousieville.

Why the &@#% are you so worried about Meier?  He is what he is, there is not a good reason to run Freeman out there IMHO and I don't really see what the other options are.  I guess we could dissect and debate exactly how good he is, but what's the &@#%ing point?  There is literally NO alternative.

[Fausto]

My point remains on Suggs.

Dude was such a *master* of the Georgia Tech offense he went 2-7 in that bowl game he *led* them to (completely forgeting DeMarcus Bilbo are we?) and was being lauded by the Georgia Tech media mid-season.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/092802/gat_124-5186.shtml

Clearly, he was lighting it up!  With a peformance like that I would be surprised if, back then I would have asked you, you would have called him subpar/average.  Now you're lauding him?  LOL!

But keep changing your claim and sooner or later I'm sure it will all work out.  You've produced names for, what, 10 QBs in the last 9 years?

[michigancat]

My point remains on Suggs.

Dude was such a *master* of the Georgia Tech offense he wen't 2-7 in that bowl game he *led* them to (completely forgeting DeMarcus Bilbo are we?) and was being lauded by the Georgia Tech media.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/092802/gat_124-5186.shtml

Clearly, he was lighting it up!  With a peformance like that I would be surprised if, back then I would have asked you, you would have called him subpar/average.  Now you're lauding him?  LOL!

But keep changing your claim and sooner or later I'm sure it will all work out.  You've produced names for, what, 10 QBs in the last 9 years?

Take of Suggs, then.  Focus on Moschetti, who led CU to 62 points in his bowl game in his first year under Barnett.  Or Heupel.  Or Rivers.  Or Streeter.  Or Leak.

What are you arguing, anyway?

[Fausto]

You'll do just about anything to talk up anyone else, but always find a way to talk down Dylan Meier.

A.J. Suggs.  LOL!  You proudly put him on the list.  Why the change now?

[michigancat]

You'll do just about anything to talk up anyone else, but always find a way to talk down Dylan Meier.

So...what are you arguing?  I am arguing that it's possible for QB's to perform well in their first year in a new system.  I think I've provided enough examples to pretty much prove that it happens quite a bit.

A.J. Suggs.  LOL!  You proudly put him on the list.  Why the change now?

He was a bad example.  I was wrong about him.  I should have used Jeff Smoker (Michigan St.) or Derek Anderson (4000 yards at Oregon St.)

[plaincat]

Can anyone name a QB that failed to lead his team to an offensive touchdown against a I-AA opponent and led his team to a bowl game?

Zac Taylor

[michigancat]

Can anyone name a QB that failed to lead his team to an offensive touchdown against a I-AA opponent and led his team to a bowl game?

Zac Taylor

Cory Ross scored a rushing TD.

[ksu_FAN]

Dylan Meier is on par with Brian Kavannah, K-State 96.  Meier was probably a notch above pre-injury, but that seems to be about what he is now.  In fact, this team looks like it could be a lot like that one (though the defense for that team was better), that team just had the fortune of playing in a pretty bad league and no opponents of Louisville's caliber in the OOC.  If Meier can have a season on par with what Kavannah did that year and we can continue to get solid defense and special teams play, we'll go bowling.