Date: 28/08/25 - 05:18 AM   48060 Topics and 694399 Posts

Author Topic: We are seriously going to be Baylor in a few years  (Read 12514 times)

May 01, 2006, 09:29:12 AM
Reply #210

michigancat

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KSU had a Top 15 class in '02, most didn't play in '03 and in '04 and '05 ... last place in the Big 12 North.

KSU won the Big 12 being led by a 3 star QB and a 3 Star RB.

The other schools you mention are traditional football powers with tons more tradition then KSU. How many #1 recruiting classes has Mack Brown had?? That's translated into 1 conference title and one BCS at large bid because they whined, and whined and whined about it.

Sure Georgia made it to a BCS bowl, and they got worked by West Virginia .... West Virginia's recruiting class rank in 2002 ... 37th.

Virigina Tech 2002 recruiting ranking ... 45th, played in the 2005 Sugar Bowl.

Well, hopefully we'll end up with a top 50 recruiting class.  That doesn't exactly look too promising.

I don't see how the recruiting rankings translating into success don't apply to schools with "more tradition".  And yeah, what a failure Mack Brown is.  :jerkoff:

I never said Mack Brown was a failure.

You're using him as an example that "recruiting rankings don't mean anything", when he is in fact the perfect example of how superior talent can overcome average coaching to win 10 games a year.

So, you would rather put your eggs into the hopes that the talent works out (when it has been shown that 50% plus of the Rivals Top 100 are basically busts) rather then having superior coaching??


We don't have superior coaching or good recruiting.  I don't see how that applies.  However, I would rather have a coach with superior recruiting and unknown coaching ability than a subpar recruiter with unknown coaching ability, kind of like we have now.

We're having this debate because many of these early commits appear questionable, at least questionable enough that no one else is offering them scholarships, and we're hearing quotes like "K-State is probably the best offer I can hope for", etc.  I hope I'm suprised by February.


May 01, 2006, 09:44:48 AM
Reply #211

sonofdaxjones

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KSU had a Top 15 class in '02, most didn't play in '03 and in '04 and '05 ... last place in the Big 12 North.

KSU won the Big 12 being led by a 3 star QB and a 3 Star RB.

The other schools you mention are traditional football powers with tons more tradition then KSU. How many #1 recruiting classes has Mack Brown had?? That's translated into 1 conference title and one BCS at large bid because they whined, and whined and whined about it.

Sure Georgia made it to a BCS bowl, and they got worked by West Virginia .... West Virginia's recruiting class rank in 2002 ... 37th.

Virigina Tech 2002 recruiting ranking ... 45th, played in the 2005 Sugar Bowl.

Well, hopefully we'll end up with a top 50 recruiting class.  That doesn't exactly look too promising.

I don't see how the recruiting rankings translating into success don't apply to schools with "more tradition".  And yeah, what a failure Mack Brown is.  :jerkoff:

I never said Mack Brown was a failure.

You're using him as an example that "recruiting rankings don't mean anything", when he is in fact the perfect example of how superior talent can overcome average coaching to win 10 games a year.

So, you would rather put your eggs into the hopes that the talent works out (when it has been shown that 50% plus of the Rivals Top 100 are basically busts) rather then having superior coaching??


We don't have superior coaching or good recruiting.  I don't see how that applies.  However, I would rather have a coach with superior recruiting and unknown coaching ability than a subpar recruiter with unknown coaching ability, kind of like we have now.

We're having this debate because many of these early commits appear questionable, at least questionable enough that no one else is offering them scholarships, and we're hearing quotes like "K-State is probably the best offer I can hope for", etc.  I hope I'm suprised by February.




I haven't seen one kid say that KSU is the "best offer I can hope for".   Aufner said he was surprised by the early offer.  But watching his film its quite clear to me why KSU offered him early.


May 01, 2006, 09:49:54 AM
Reply #212

michigancat

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May 01, 2006, 09:55:37 AM
Reply #213

sonofdaxjones

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Ah, maybe he thinks highly of KSU. 

I know it'll come as a shock to you, but some kids have actually gotten to know KSU football pretty well, and actually aspire and want to play for KSU.   

I've watched all of his film, and to me he looks like Darren Sproles out there.   You I suspect are listening to the squawks talk about his build.  What do they know ... here's a hint .. NOTHING.


May 01, 2006, 10:00:53 AM
Reply #214

sonofdaxjones

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Dee Bell in the cap journal.

I think I'll fit pretty well into that system," Bell said, noting that he also received interest from Arizona State, Vanderbilt and Colorado State, among others. "I really don't think I can beat K-State."

May 01, 2006, 10:07:58 AM
Reply #215

michigancat

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Ah, maybe he thinks highly of KSU.

I know it'll come as a shock to you, but some kids have actually gotten to know KSU football pretty well, and actually aspire and want to play for KSU.

Apparently, not many good 2007 recruits do.  What are ku fans saying about Bell?  All I know is Vanderbilt "showed interest" and he grew up an OU fan.

May 01, 2006, 10:16:07 AM
Reply #216

fatty fat fat

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It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

May 01, 2006, 10:21:10 AM
Reply #217

Saulbadguy

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I just wonder how many of the 4 and 5 star recruits commit this early?  I also wonder how many scholarships we will have available after we sign all these 2 star guys.

And, who knows, maybe these guys stock will rise after their senior season. 

I'm not putting a whole lot of stock in to this right now, but i'll be surprised/upset if we don't bring in a top 30 class in Feb.

May 01, 2006, 10:28:54 AM
Reply #218

michigancat

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May 01, 2006, 10:32:17 AM
Reply #219

sonofdaxjones

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http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=539556

Dax, RMCat has taken your stance.  :shy:

Here's the deal, I am pretty much hated by the sunshinie pumpers on PI because I actually question things.  However, having now been a college football fan and a K-State fan for about 35 years, I am not going to start bitching about a recruiting class in May.  I am also not going to start taking the so called "experts" word for everything when I know ... historically the best football players KSU has had in the last 10-12 years have been the 2-3 star guys.  

Every so called "blue chip" can't miss kid KSU has recruited has been a complete bust.   The only "can't miss" kids that have worked out have all been Juco's.


May 01, 2006, 10:43:36 AM
Reply #220

Dan Rydell

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I'm with Saul on this one.  I think it's just too early to make a call on what's going on.  Obviously, we're recruiting differently than Snyder did.  We're offering a lot of local kids, many of whom don't seem to have gotten much attention yet.  Although there are warning signs, it's just too early to tell.  We need to wait and see  how the rankings are updated, and then how this class pans out.  If it's ranked pretty low by next spring, then I think we get really worried.  But we haven't even seen how Prince coaches yet and if his staff is gonna coach people up.  

Sure, there are possible warning signs.  But I'm not ready to conclude that recruiting under Prince is a disaster, just yet.

(Why does this feel like Wooly all over again?   :P )


May 01, 2006, 10:46:49 AM
Reply #221

sonofdaxjones

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Basketball is a lot different then football ... you can tell pretty quickly if a kid has got in hoops. 

Lets look at the Ochs brothers ... both pretty much unheralded recruits out of Shawnee Mission South ... how did that turn out??

They worked out, got bigger and stronger, and were coached well.   Given our DE situation, who here wouldn't kill to have Dirk Ochs back??


May 01, 2006, 02:05:58 PM
Reply #222

mjrod

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1   Texas (2005 NC, 2 BCS bowls)
2   Tennessee (Phil Fulmer)
3   Georgia (1 BCS)
4   Florida State (2 BCS)
5   Ohio State (2 BCS)
6   Auburn (1 BCS, deserved 1 MNC)
7   Oklahoma (2 BCS title games)
8   Miami-FL (1 BCS)

9   UCLA (coach fired)
10   Colorado (coach fired)
11   South Carolina (coach resigned)
12   Virginia (Makes me hope our new coach is really good at developing lower ranked players, because UVA is very mediocre)
13   Southern Cal (3 BCS, 3 title games, 1 NC)
14   Kansas State (1 BCS)
15   LSU (1 BCS, 1 NC)


Summary:  Out of 24 possible BCS spots from 2003-2005, 11 came from the 2002 top 10 recruiters.  16(!)  came from the top 15.  All MNC's came from the top 15, and all BCS title game participants came from the top 15.

Interesting.    Here's where your logic fails.

A class will not have an impact on a team immediately, but rather in about three years, generally when most players are either true juniors or redshirt sophomores AND assuming those teams do not have impact players from the previous class.  To use the argument that a recruiting class will have an immediate impact, and to use the success of the previous years is the fallacy in your argument and goes against the conventional thinking of the process.   You cannot give a recruiting class for BCS bowl games where they would not have any impact.

Therefore, I will correct your recruiting to establish the true picture.  We can safely assume that the 2002 class will have some bearing on the 2005.  Keep in mind that players from 2001 will still have an impact:

1   Texas - BCS NC game  (12-0)
2   Tennessee - 5-6 season
3   Georgia - 10-2 (BCS Bowl - lost to West Virginia)
4   Florida State 8-5 (BCS Bowl - but not best record in conference  - Miami, VaTech better, Loses to Big 10 Champ Penn State)
5   Ohio State - 10-2 (BCS at large bid - beat a overachieving Notre Dame team)
6   Auburn  - 9-3 (Bowl Game Lost to "Wisconsin.")
7   Oklahoma - 8-4 (Holiday Bowl - Lost to tcu??)
8   Miami-FL - 9-3 (Blown out by LSU)
9   UCLA - 10-2 (Blows out hapless Northwestern team)
10   Colorado - 7-6 (Loses to Clemson in bowl game)
11   South Carolina - 7-5  (Loses Bowl game to Missouri..)
12   Virginia - 7-5 (Bowl game win against Minnesota)
13   Southern Cal - BCS Title Game (Loses to Texas)
14   Kansas State 5-6
15   LSU - 11-2 (Destroys higher ranked recruiting class Miami Team)


Of the Top 5 teams, four go to BCS bowls.  Of the four, go, and two of the four lose to teams who are lower ranked in recruiting.   Two get there by winning their championships, not a true measure of whether the team deserves, but they still end up losing to inferior recruiting RANKED teams.  Notice Penn State won, and were higher RANKED in the polls at the time.

Last half of the Top 5 go to bowl games (no BCS Bowls)  BUT 2 of the remaining 5 win their bowl games, where OU beat Oregon (a higher RANKED team poll wise, not recruiting wise) the losers again, losing to lower recruiting ranked teams.

From 11-15, the 4 go to bowl games,  Virginia beats a lower recruiting ranked team, LSU beats a HIGHER recruiting ranked team and SOCAL is the #1 team all season and plays the game of the 21st centuryaand barely loses.   Steve Spurier gets smoked by Gary Pinkel.

The only thing you can say with any realism is that fatty's comment about "generally" is as close as it gets but even then you must put an asterisk beside it.  What I have contended is actually more true.  If recruiting means BCS bowl games, the only way to accurately sample that is to measure the teams rankings and see where they end up down the line, not one year then measure the next four years because recruits do not make immediate impacts on teams.   Coaching plays a big deal in it because out of the Top 10 teams that played their bowl games,  only 3 beat a team ranked recruiting wise LOWER than it.   The remaining 6 lost.   33%.  Success is measured in the wins folks, and that includes the bowl games.   

But, since I know you'll take this argument and state, unequivocally, that the success is measured in reaching the post season, then you'll need to study more than just a year to get that answer.  In this case, 13 of the 15 teams reached bowl games.  All of the teams that reached bowl games were ranked during the season.   And again, the teams that won comprised of more than just the recruits for that class, so you must consider that in your analysis.

Bottom line, recruit in the Top 15, you have a better chance of going to a bowl game.  That's the only thing that can be shown correctly, with the data.







May 01, 2006, 02:07:12 PM
Reply #223

fatty fat fat

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Hey Jeffy Jr, compare that with the recruiting classes from 40-50.

Thx.
It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

May 01, 2006, 02:09:44 PM
Reply #224

mjrod

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Hey Jeffy Jr, compare that with the recruiting classes from 40-50.

Thx.

Irrelevant.  This is what you asked for and got.

Go back to learning how to play tennis, third stringer.

May 01, 2006, 02:10:25 PM
Reply #225

fatty fat fat

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No, I compared team rankings 1-10 vs team ranking 40-50.

It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

May 01, 2006, 02:12:38 PM
Reply #226

mjrod

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No, I compared team rankings 1-10 vs team ranking 40-50.

Doesn't matter.   The success you're trying to make with teams in the top 10 do not pan out like you want.   It's that simple.  Can you not see that?


May 01, 2006, 02:19:00 PM
Reply #227

fatty fat fat

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Please compare the better recruiting classes (1-10) vs the not as good classes (40-50) and tell me what you get.

THX!
It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

May 01, 2006, 02:24:29 PM
Reply #228

michigancat

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No, I compared team rankings 1-10 vs team ranking 40-50.

Doesn't matter. The success you're trying to make with teams in the top 10 do not pan out like you want. It's that simple. Can you not see that?



The top 10 had a combined .722 winning %.

Bill Snyder had a .666 career winning %.

I'd say the top 10 is very successful.

May 01, 2006, 02:29:59 PM
Reply #229

mjrod

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I'll even do you better.   Let's consider the Top 25 final Rankings, and then the 2002 recruiting classes for these teams..

AP rank,  Recruiting Rank, Team
 1,1   Texas
 2,13   USC
 3,21   Penn State
 4,5   Ohio State
 5,37   West Virginia
 6,15   LSU
 7,45   Virginia Tech
 8,30   Alabama
 9,24   Notre Dame
 10,3   Georgia
 11,79   tcu
 12,20   Florida
 12,49   Oregon
 14,6   Auburn
 15,50   Wisconsin
 16,9   UCLA
 17,8   Miami (FL)
 18,43   Boston College
 19,59   Louisville
 20,48   Texas Tech
 21,22   Clemson
 22,7   Oklahoma
 23,4   Florida State
 24,40   Nebraska
 25,64   California

Final Rankings from the 2005 season with the 2002 class rankings for recruiting.

In the top 10, only three teams had a ranking that was in the Top 10 recruiting.

In the top 10,  five teams had ranking that was in the Top 15 recruiting.

In the Top 15, only FOUR teams had a ranking was in the Top 10 recruiting,

In the Top 15, only FIVE TEAMS had a ranking that was in the Top 15 recruiting.

In the Top 20, only Six teams had a ranking that was in the Top 10 recruiting,

In the Top 20 only 8 Teams had a Top 20 Recruiting class.

11 Teams total in the Top 25 had a recruiting rank that was NOT in the Top 25 recruiting rank.

14 teams out of the Top 25 had a recruiting rank that NOT in the Top 20 recruiting rank.



May 01, 2006, 02:30:29 PM
Reply #230

mjrod

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Please compare the better recruiting classes (1-10) vs the not as good classes (40-50) and tell me what you get.

THX!

That is still irrelevant.


May 01, 2006, 02:32:15 PM
Reply #231

mjrod

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No, I compared team rankings 1-10 vs team ranking 40-50.

Doesn't matter. The success you're trying to make with teams in the top 10 do not pan out like you want. It's that simple. Can you not see that?



The top 10 had a combined .722 winning %.

Bill Snyder had a .666 career winning %.

I'd say the top 10 is very successful.

That's nice you went to all that trouble on two statistics not related to each other.


May 01, 2006, 02:34:17 PM
Reply #232

michigancat

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I'll even do you better. Let's consider the Top 25 final Rankings, and then the 2002 recruiting classes for these teams..

AP rank, Recruiting Rank, Team
 1,1   Texas
 2,13   USC
 3,21   Penn State
 4,5   Ohio State
 5,37   West Virginia
 6,15   LSU
 7,45   Virginia Tech
 8,30   Alabama
 9,24   Notre Dame
 10,3   Georgia
 11,79   tcu
 12,20   Florida
 12,49   Oregon
 14,6   Auburn
 15,50   Wisconsin
 16,9   UCLA
 17,8   Miami (FL)
 18,43   Boston College
 19,59   Louisville
 20,48   Texas Tech
 21,22   Clemson
 22,7   Oklahoma
 23,4   Florida State
 24,40   Nebraska
 25,64   California

Final Rankings from the 2005 season with the 2002 class rankings for recruiting.

In the top 10, only three teams had a ranking that was in the Top 10 recruiting.

In the top 10, five teams had ranking that was in the Top 15 recruiting.

In the Top 15, only FOUR teams had a ranking was in the Top 10 recruiting,

In the Top 15, only FIVE TEAMS had a ranking that was in the Top 15 recruiting.

In the Top 20, only Six teams had a ranking that was in the Top 10 recruiting,

In the Top 20 only 8 Teams had a Top 20 Recruiting class.

11 Teams total in the Top 25 had a recruiting rank that was NOT in the Top 25 recruiting rank.

14 teams out of the Top 25 had a recruiting rank that NOT in the Top 20 recruiting rank.




That's cute!  8 of the top 10 in recruiting still finished in the top 25.  No matter how you spin it, a top 25 season is a success.

May 01, 2006, 02:35:53 PM
Reply #233

michigancat

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No, I compared team rankings 1-10 vs team ranking 40-50.

Doesn't matter. The success you're trying to make with teams in the top 10 do not pan out like you want. It's that simple. Can you not see that?



The top 10 had a combined .722 winning %.

Bill Snyder had a .666 career winning %.

I'd say the top 10 is very successful.

That's nice you went to all that trouble on two statistics not related to each other.



You can leave out Bill Snyder's record and the point stays the same.  The top 10 in recruiting won over 70% of their games in 2005. 

That = success

If you could find a range of teams that did better, that'd be pretty cool.

May 01, 2006, 02:36:29 PM
Reply #234

fatty fat fat

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It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

May 01, 2006, 02:46:07 PM
Reply #235

mjrod

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I'll even do you better. Let's consider the Top 25 final Rankings, and then the 2002 recruiting classes for these teams..

AP rank, Recruiting Rank, Team
 1,1   Texas
 2,13   USC
 3,21   Penn State
 4,5   Ohio State
 5,37   West Virginia
 6,15   LSU
 7,45   Virginia Tech
 8,30   Alabama
 9,24   Notre Dame
 10,3   Georgia
 11,79   tcu
 12,20   Florida
 12,49   Oregon
 14,6   Auburn
 15,50   Wisconsin
 16,9   UCLA
 17,8   Miami (FL)
 18,43   Boston College
 19,59   Louisville
 20,48   Texas Tech
 21,22   Clemson
 22,7   Oklahoma
 23,4   Florida State
 24,40   Nebraska
 25,64   California

Final Rankings from the 2005 season with the 2002 class rankings for recruiting.

In the top 10, only three teams had a ranking that was in the Top 10 recruiting.

In the top 10, five teams had ranking that was in the Top 15 recruiting.

In the Top 15, only FOUR teams had a ranking was in the Top 10 recruiting,

In the Top 15, only FIVE TEAMS had a ranking that was in the Top 15 recruiting.

In the Top 20, only Six teams had a ranking that was in the Top 10 recruiting,

In the Top 20 only 8 Teams had a Top 20 Recruiting class.

11 Teams total in the Top 25 had a recruiting rank that was NOT in the Top 25 recruiting rank.

14 teams out of the Top 25 had a recruiting rank that NOT in the Top 20 recruiting rank.




That's cute!  8 of the top 10 in recruiting still finished in the top 25.  No matter how you spin it, a top 25 season is a success.

No, not according to you guys.  You were pushing BCS, and fatty's argument was the same, BCS or bust.  Now you're dropping down to where it counts, that recruiting rankings don't equal the success you were pushing earlier.

It's easy to see why you and fatty argue the way you do.  None of you can make your argument stick to the point, and you have to keep changing directions.  I made it relevant for you and you quickly adjust to discount the obviousness that of the Top 25 teams in the country, almost half are from teams that didn't EVEN break the Top 25 in recruiting.   A sure sign that makes the rankings and stars arguments completely questionable.

May 01, 2006, 02:48:06 PM
Reply #236

mjrod

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No, I compared team rankings 1-10 vs team ranking 40-50.

Doesn't matter. The success you're trying to make with teams in the top 10 do not pan out like you want. It's that simple. Can you not see that?



The top 10 had a combined .722 winning %.

Bill Snyder had a .666 career winning %.

I'd say the top 10 is very successful.

That's nice you went to all that trouble on two statistics not related to each other.



You can leave out Bill Snyder's record and the point stays the same.  The top 10 in recruiting won over 70% of their games in 2005. 

That = success

If you could find a range of teams that did better, that'd be pretty cool.

Now it's winning %????

Funny stuff.  First is you go to BCS bowls more, now it's just you win more games.. how many more times are you going to change the issue?

Original contention.. stars, or rather rankings do not matter.   Still shows to be true.  Success is measured in whatever terms will fit your argument.  Keep spinning away.

I'm still waiting on your proof that Prince is not as at least capable of evaluating recruits as any other Big 12 coach.



May 01, 2006, 03:16:30 PM
Reply #237

michigancat

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No, not according to you guys.  You were pushing BCS, and fatty's argument was the same, BCS or bust.  Now you're dropping down to where it counts, that recruiting rankings don't equal the success you were pushing earlier.

Link to where I defined success.

May 01, 2006, 03:21:11 PM
Reply #238

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No, not according to you guys.  You were pushing BCS, and fatty's argument was the same, BCS or bust.  Now you're dropping down to where it counts, that recruiting rankings don't equal the success you were pushing earlier.

Link to where I defined success.

Your definition of success was 77% of games won.

See about five posts above.

May 01, 2006, 03:23:13 PM
Reply #239

michigancat

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No, not according to you guys.  You were pushing BCS, and fatty's argument was the same, BCS or bust.  Now you're dropping down to where it counts, that recruiting rankings don't equal the success you were pushing earlier.

Link to where I defined success.

Your definition of success was 77% of games won.

See about five posts above.


I consider Bill Snyder very successful, too.  Bill won 66% of his games.  Also, learn to read.