Who should the dems blame?

[Kat Kid]

Every large societal shift left in the history of this country has come from labor. We seem to be in another labor shift towards the worker or on the precipice of one, but the Dems let maga just take populism in the quest to appeal to suburban white women.

Biden was able to do a little Scranton magic in an extremely unfavorable COVID election against Trump but this is now a lost generation that was explicitly rejected when Obama picked up the phone before South Carolina got all the moderates to drop out, endorse Biden and get the entire DNC threw their support behind him while also Liz Warren stayed in so she could come in 3rd in her home state and split the left everywhere.

“For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.” Chuck Schumer, 2016.

This is going to haunt the dems for a long time.

[wetwillie]

I'm curious where dems are pointing their fingers. I also am sad sys left here because now I have to try to read his twitter feed.

What is the theory?

Wait, what do you mean Sys left?

[sonofdaxjones]

I heard a stat that said there have been 13 recessions in American history, 11 of those have been while a Republican was the president. How are Democrats so rough ridin' horrible with messaging?

Some of those recessions were driven by 1: The absolute crap policies of the previous Dem regime 2. In one if not several cases the recession was so shallow and so short lived it was barely noticeable

Viewers of this blog are reminded that we've had at least one if not two periods under the current Harris-Biden regime that fit every definition of a recession, but now we have to deal with the "we'll know a recession when we see it" #blueanon leaning experts.  Had George HW Bush had the same mindset on his side, he would have won re-election in 1992.

[cfbandyman]

Democrats can’t do that because they really really want the traditional media to stick around because they love what it stands for and it’s more important to toil in futile for the perfect than it is to be realistic and settle for the very good.

Lord this is so goddamn true for far too many left leaning voters. If the candidate isn't perfect it isn't worth voting for. Like seeing (somewhat joking) people voting for Jill Stein (not that it mattered that much in this one) than being able to bring themselves to vote for Harris cause of Israel connotations or whatever. Like, too many people on the left tend to be unable to bring themselves to overcome imperfections in a candidate or position cause they can't agree with it enough. A very throw the baby out with the bath water in the voting part (the baby being a candidate they mostly agree with and the water being the crap they don't like about them). The right seems to be like as long as I get X out this guy I'm all in, even if there are things they don't agree with or don't like. For them they are willing to throw the baby (social services, economy, etc) also out with the bathwater (things they don't like about the candidate), but as long as their person is there to do it. Dems have to appeal more to those who they can reliably get a vote from, not one they have to jump through 100 hoops to get their vote.

Yep, I honestly don't see how they fix this. The right elected a draft dodging, convicted felon, convicted sexual assaulter, non church goer not once, but twice!!! All those things are about as "not conservative" as you get. They will vote lock and step almost regardless. Dems have to fight being too progressive, not being progressive enough, having a weird laugh, etc. to get voters. Like, can you imagine if a Dem candidate pretended to blow a microphone at a rally!!!

Absolutely, all that is true, but clearly it doesn't matter that much, so maybe next time try to not do that? Can't be worse than where they already are at. I think it's all about worrying too much about that infighting, instead of just letting someone just do the fighting. Like the dems are kind of the classic case of Dunning-Kruger to themselves

[cfbandyman]

I think Biden deserved a ton of blame and Kamala could not overcome how unpopular and bad his presidency was and her association with it and inability to offer clear differences was I think issue number 1. The campaign completely misunderstood that she could not simply run on the record, nor simply run against Trump's first presidency.

makes me think of Bernie
Right wingers didn't like Bernie but his clarity of message and no apologies principled stands are FAR more respected, EVEN WHEN PEOPLE DISAGREE. Bernie isn't wishy washy on policy or values. (Joe Rogan endorsed him and Bernie did much better with white men, young people in 2016 and 2020)

If you are defend the campaign, the candidate, the previous admin, and put the blame on groups like Arabs, trans people, Gaza protestors etc. the burden of proof is on you. The pros got to run the campaign they wanted and they were as in control of a campaign as any in memory. Hard to believe it still needs to be said, but blaming voters is not a winning strategy in a democracy. I see a lot of it.

My big points below all come back to not enough "clash" between the positions of Trump and Kamala on policy (in addition to basically no difference with Biden) AND the rhetoric was incoherent. The dems ran a right wing campaign with Liz Cheney as the closing message to Republicans. How did that work out?

On immigration (we tried to pass a tough immigration plan and Trump stopped it!)

on democracy (Trump is a fascist and danger!) This was a completely ineffective point

But Trump voters made up a greater share of those who described American democracy as "somewhat threatened," 50 percent, or "very threatened," 51 percent, CNN's exit polls show. Comparably, Harris voters accounted for 49 percent of those who said democracy in the U.S. is "somewhat threatened," and 47 percent said "very threatened."

https://www.newsweek.com/liberals-misunderstood-voter-concerns-democracy-1981664

on Israel (all of the warnings and red lines and Netanyahu completely ignoring/insulting Biden as he backed down or was totally absent, both sides looked to Trump as the change candidate on this!)

Here is Kamala's economic plan as pitched to black men (which were not the problem despite tons of attention about it), the problem to me is--
On economic issues focusing on what divides rather than universal programs. Obviously, you can't really have federal programs that give special handouts to only black men, but look at the weird phrasing (see below)

Drawing on insights from her experience throughout her career and her Economic Opportunity
Tour, today Vice President Harris is laying out an Opportunity Agenda for Black Men to provide
them with the tools to achieve financial freedom, lower costs to better provide for themselves
and their families, and protect their rights. This pathbreaking agenda includes:
(1) Providing 1 million loans that are fully forgivable to Black entrepreneurs and others to
start a business.
(2) Championing education, training, and mentorship programs that help Black men get
good-paying jobs in high-demand industries and lead their communities, including
pathways to become teachers.
(3) Supporting a regulatory framework for cryptocurrency and other digital assets so Black
men who invest in and own these assets are protected.
(4) Launching a National Health Equity Initiative focused on Black Men that addresses
sickle cell disease, diabetes, mental health, prostate cancer, and other health challenges
that disproportionately impact them.
(5) Legalizing recreational marijuana and creating opportunities for Black Americans to
succeed in this new industry.

The biggest one....
Abortion/Dobbs (why was this not the centerpiece of the campaign???? THE ISSUE OUTRAN KAMALA ALL OVER THE PLACE! PEOPLE REALLY VOTED FOR TRUMP AND TO SECURE ABORTION RIGHTS ALL OVER THE PLACE!!)

For the first part like I agree with that, I think my blame is not on those people voting or not voting, but more why are you wasting your time trying to court them. My blame is more on going after them or relying on them to be the ones to do it. They are fickle AF.

For the second bold, that is where my reasoning of economics had to be key comes from. Individual issues like that you came almost certain get people to vote for it, it was proven in KS it's a winning issue. But, it's also not an all consuming issue. It affects half the population and even half of those it's in shades of grey. Bodily freedom is important but it clearly isn't enough to cause people to not split their votes. It's important, but not that important.

[cfbandyman]

I heard a stat that said there have been 13 recessions in American history, 11 of those have been while a Republican was the president. How are Democrats so rough ridin' horrible with messaging?

Some of those recessions were driven by 1: The absolute crap policies of the previous Dem regime 2. In one if not several cases the recession was so shallow and so short lived it was barely noticeable

Viewers of this blog are reminded that we've had at least one if not two periods under the current Harris-Biden regime that fit every definition of a recession, but now we have to deal with the "we'll know a recession when we see it" #blueanon leaning experts.  Had George HW Bush had the same mindset on his side, he would have won re-election in 1992.

Yeah let's just ignore Ross Perot in all of it.

[nicname]

I don’t know if this is pertinent to this thread, but in 2008 Barack Obama ran as a moderate who opposed same-sex marriage (but not civil unions).

[Stupid Fitz]

I don’t know if this is pertinent to this thread, but in 2008 Barack Obama ran as a moderate who opposed same-sex marriage (but not civil unions).

Obama was basically slightly left leaning republican. MAGA republicans think he was a socialist. Back to being able to control the narrative.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I don’t know if this is pertinent to this thread, but in 2008 Barack Obama ran as a moderate who opposed same-sex marriage (but not civil unions).

Yeah, Kamala also ran on keeping status quo on issues like that. Even on abortion, they only ran on restoring Roe v Wade, not anything more extreme.

[sonofdaxjones]

I don’t know if this is pertinent to this thread, but in 2008 Barack Obama ran as a moderate who opposed same-sex marriage (but not civil unions).

Obama was basically slightly left leaning republican. MAGA republicans think he was a socialist. Back to being able to control the narrative.

 

Relative to #neoconism . . . that is party/politically agnostic

[Kat Kid]

I'm curious where dems are pointing their fingers. I also am sad sys left here because now I have to try to read his twitter feed.

What is the theory?

Wait, what do you mean Sys left?

Well, he hardly posts here anymore.

[wetwillie]

Oh damn you scared me

[Kat Kid]

I don’t know if this is pertinent to this thread, but in 2008 Barack Obama ran as a moderate who opposed same-sex marriage (but not civil unions).

In 2004 Republicans pushed through constitutional amendments banning same sex marriage in a bunch of states as part of Rove's winning strategy to re-elect Bush. In 2008 Obama lied through his teeth that he was only in favor of civil unions when most dems wowasn't some sort of bi-partisan compromise position. In 1996 Obama had filled out a candidate questionnaire in favor of same-sex marriage.  Look at the polling.  Obgerfell was in 2015 and the Supreme Court ruled in favor and legalized it.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx#:~:text=Over%20the%20years%2C%20there%20has%20been%20a%20gradual%20increase%20in,2001%20to%2033%25%20in%202024.

Obviously this court isn't going to do any favors like that and if it was a legislative or constitutional amendment issue it was never going to happen because our default setting is total gridlock.

So what do we learn from this? I'm not sure what the lesson is exactly but those are the facts.

[star seed 7]

[chum1]

They should blame the human nature of the voters. In hindsight, there's basically nothing they could have done to win.

[nicname]

They should blame the human nature of the voters. In hindsight, there's basically nothing they could have done to win.

  … but you may be right, and maybe part of the reason they trotted Harris out there to lose and probably now fade into Bolivian.

[Kat Kid]

They should blame the human nature of the voters. In hindsight, there's basically nothing they could have done to win.

In a democracy do voters owe politicians or do politicians owe voters? The politician is supposed to be the vox populi! They are our representatives! If they don't get the job, they failed. Not the electorate. It is precisely backwards in terms of responsibility!

[Kat Kid]

They should blame the human nature of the voters. In hindsight, there's basically nothing they could have done to win.

  … but you may be right, and maybe part of the reason they trotted Harris out there to lose and probably now fade into Bolivian.

 

[cfbandyman]

They should blame the human nature of the voters. In hindsight, there's basically nothing they could have done to win.

  … but you may be right, and maybe part of the reason they trotted Harris out there to lose and probably now fade into Bolivian.

 

Holy crap that's awesome 

[steve dave]

https://x.com/oldfriend99/status/1666498848980623372

[chum1]

They should blame the human nature of the voters. In hindsight, there's basically nothing they could have done to win.

In a democracy do voters owe politicians or do politicians owe voters? The politician is supposed to be the vox populi! They are our representatives! If they don't get the job, they failed. Not the electorate. It is precisely backwards in terms of responsibility!

I read "dems" as inclusive of the voters.

[nicname]

They should blame the human nature of the voters. In hindsight, there's basically nothing they could have done to win.

  … but you may be right, and maybe part of the reason they trotted Harris out there to lose and probably now fade into Bolivian.

 

Holy crap that's awesome 

 

[nicname]

They should blame the human nature of the voters. In hindsight, there's basically nothing they could have done to win.

In a democracy do voters owe politicians or do politicians owe voters? The politician is supposed to be the vox populi! They are our representatives! If they don't get the job, they failed. Not the electorate. It is precisely backwards in terms of responsibility!

Servus publicas

[star seed 7]

eff that, I blame the voters for everything including bad candidates

[Trim]

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/a-wa-red-district-conqueror-wants-fellow-democrats-to-look-in-the-mirror/