Author Topic: Possible WW3 thread  (Read 468202 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5950 on: February 11, 2023, 12:18:28 PM »
I think post-war Europe being almost completely reliant on the US for security was mostly a good thing and the more NATO resembled a way for Belgians to play dress up, all the better. The problem is we’ve created a situation where these countries take themselves and their armies seriously. My ideal would involve everyone trying to de-escalate defense spending in tandem and this would still naturally favor the US.

Im not saying there will be tanks rolling down the autobahn to retake the Low Countries or Poland tomorrow. in fact, I don’t believe the most likely threat is in Europe at all. I know that most of these countries have gotten over themselves with regards to losing their empires but there is a ton of opportunity for Africa to become a major battleground with proxy wars as the resource race moves on from the Middle East. Deterrence is an ok theory for nuclear weapons, but small arms and conventional weapons proliferation has proven to be much more of a killer and looks likely to get worse.

And as the UN security council goes the way of the senate with Russia and China forming a veto block over western ambitions, NATO will just have even more reason to expand the mission to more “peacekeeping” interventions. I don’t find any of these to be good directions to move in, although I understand I am filling in a lot of blanks and others might draw different conclusions from the same premise.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5951 on: February 12, 2023, 03:37:14 PM »
About to listen to Sy Hersh on Radio War Nerd. will report back.

Offline sys

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5952 on: February 12, 2023, 06:16:07 PM »
About to listen to Sy Hersh on Radio War Nerd. will report back.

there's only so much misinformation you can put in a brain before it goes bad, kat kid.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5953 on: February 13, 2023, 09:26:14 AM »
LMAO. You’re an amazing clown


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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5954 on: February 13, 2023, 09:28:00 AM »
Once upon a time the precursor to #blueanonneocon would have lost their collective minds over this.

All the usuals are now lined up for Ukraine.


https://www.foxbusiness.com/business-leaders/jp-morgan-reach-agreement-ukraine-zelenskyy-rebuild-infrastructure-present-patriots-jersey

Offline Kat Kid

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Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5955 on: February 14, 2023, 10:29:18 AM »
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream

I finished Hersh’s article. Obviously it is impossible to know for sure what happened from where any of us sits, but the article lays out a detailed account of what Hersh claims happened. The fact that there is no compelling theory that has been shared, the only investigation that has been conducted has not released any speculation as to who may have been responsible is not evidence that Hersh is right, but does in my mind shift the burden a bit more toward those dismissing it out of hand to offer some plausible alternatives instead of continuing to essentially declare it an unexplained natural phenomenon unworthy of examination.

I certainly am sympathetic to the idea that this would be a catastrophically dumb idea. Is this common ground? It seems to be the best argument against the US having done it, and is best paired with the US categorical denials.
But saying it would be dumb for the US to have done it is not the same thing as the US not doing it.

I think the idea that a rag tag group of Ukrainians pulled it off is more far fetched based upon the reporting on how active the area is with Russian and NATO navies.

Besides the obvious motive and public statements, I think other biggest circumstantial piece of evidence is opportunity and BALSTOP definitely fits.

Lastly, I know there has been a lot of hand waving about the messenger. Sy Hersh did excellent reporting on Abu Ghraib and also has a very long history of reporting on things that are dismissed and then become consensus after further investigations. That pattern has definitely slowed as the Osama bin Ladin killing story he posted was not really confirmed, but the multiple iterations of cover stories and mystifying facts crumbled under any cursory scrutiny so at the very least he disproved some of the dumber things that were claimed. And people who doubt that the government would lie to them about something consequential would do well to remember the Bush administration’s routine lies about everything from Pat Tillman to Jessica Lynch to torture to NSA. The Obama drone assassination program, Guantanamo, NSA spying  etc. These stories all took reporting by people like Edward Snowden, Glenn Greenwald, Julian Assange, and Jeremy Scahill and Scott Horton I don’t particularly like all of these people but we owe them all a serious debt of gratitude for uncovering what they did. I feel the same way about Sy Hersh, I don’t reflexively co-sign everything he has uttered or written but it definitely seems like this story is deserving of more attention than it has.

The best evidence that Hersh may be on to something is the completely bizarre investigation.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/traces-explosives-found-nord-stream-pipelines-sweden-says-2022-11-18/

Offline sys

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"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sys

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5957 on: February 14, 2023, 10:42:00 PM »
intensity of the war expressed in russian casualties has bumped up recently.

https://twitter.com/HeliosRunner/status/1624777939031056384

"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5958 on: February 14, 2023, 10:55:03 PM »
intensity of the war expressed in russian casualties has bumped up recently.

https://twitter.com/HeliosRunner/status/1624777939031056384

So if I'm reading this right, they are on moving towards a 7 day average of 1000 deaths a week, and ~16,000 a month? Holy crap.
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

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Offline sys

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5959 on: February 14, 2023, 11:00:52 PM »
So if I'm reading this right, they are on moving towards a 7 day average of 1000 deaths a week, and ~16,000 a month? Holy crap.

it's not 100% clear but i think the numbers are estimates of russian soldiers killed or seriously wounded rather than just killed (these are from ukrainian estimates).
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5960 on: February 14, 2023, 11:01:19 PM »
https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/blowing-holes-in-seymour-hershs-pipe

The open source intelligence expert provides some fascinating statements.

Too much detail = lying. Asserting Hersh fabricated many details.  Interesting.  That a very very bold accusation.

This sentence, did he even edit? One could write an entire post on the reasons why sounds entirely made up by someone with no real grasp of what that suggestion would actually technically entail.
  The writers claim that early mission planning meetings do not birth wild and likely unreasonable ideas is just nonsense.

The writer completely misinterprets what Hersh said regarding Jens Stoltenberg. 

The writer completely misinterprets the research and development component of BALTOPS.  It had nothing to do with mine sweeping per se and everything to do with using the newly created technology.  Thus research and development.  He's completely off base in his assertion.

His whole "right spot" narrative is just comical.

His assertion that there's no way an Alta-class minesweeper could have been used because not one was listed in the inventory of ships engaged in BALTOPS is dubious and simple brained.  At minimum he's using his own argument of too many details being a lie earlier in his article . . . against himself.

His ship location narrative is completely devoid of mentioning the newly developed systems referenced earlier in the article.  A glaring and sophomoric omission.

He then immediately devolves into attempting to be the smartest guy in the room edit:  Dare I say Tom Clancy'ish overindulgence?  His constant referencing of user manual/standard operational procedure analogies relative to an operation of this type is laughable.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 11:07:10 PM by sonofdaxjones »

Offline steve dave

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5961 on: February 15, 2023, 06:27:21 AM »

Offline wetwillie

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5962 on: February 15, 2023, 06:35:50 AM »
Whatever happened with that pipeline that was blown up?  Everyone accepted it was Russia and moved on?
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5963 on: February 15, 2023, 07:00:24 AM »
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream

I finished Hersh’s article. Obviously it is impossible to know for sure what happened from where any of us sits, but the article lays out a detailed account of what Hersh claims happened. The fact that there is no compelling theory that has been shared, the only investigation that has been conducted has not released any speculation as to who may have been responsible is not evidence that Hersh is right, but does in my mind shift the burden a bit more toward those dismissing it out of hand to offer some plausible alternatives instead of continuing to essentially declare it an unexplained natural phenomenon unworthy of examination.

I certainly am sympathetic to the idea that this would be a catastrophically dumb idea. Is this common ground? It seems to be the best argument against the US having done it, and is best paired with the US categorical denials.
But saying it would be dumb for the US to have done it is not the same thing as the US not doing it.

I think the idea that a rag tag group of Ukrainians pulled it off is more far fetched based upon the reporting on how active the area is with Russian and NATO navies.

Besides the obvious motive and public statements, I think other biggest circumstantial piece of evidence is opportunity and BALSTOP definitely fits.

Lastly, I know there has been a lot of hand waving about the messenger. Sy Hersh did excellent reporting on Abu Ghraib and also has a very long history of reporting on things that are dismissed and then become consensus after further investigations. That pattern has definitely slowed as the Osama bin Ladin killing story he posted was not really confirmed, but the multiple iterations of cover stories and mystifying facts crumbled under any cursory scrutiny so at the very least he disproved some of the dumber things that were claimed. And people who doubt that the government would lie to them about something consequential would do well to remember the Bush administration’s routine lies about everything from Pat Tillman to Jessica Lynch to torture to NSA. The Obama drone assassination program, Guantanamo, NSA spying  etc. These stories all took reporting by people like Edward Snowden, Glenn Greenwald, Julian Assange, and Jeremy Scahill and Scott Horton I don’t particularly like all of these people but we owe them all a serious debt of gratitude for uncovering what they did. I feel the same way about Sy Hersh, I don’t reflexively co-sign everything he has uttered or written but it definitely seems like this story is deserving of more attention than it has.

The best evidence that Hersh may be on to something is the completely bizarre investigation.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/traces-explosives-found-nord-stream-pipelines-sweden-says-2022-11-18/
I stopped reading at the part where the guy writing the article said Jan Stoltenberg could not have been an intelligence asset in his teens. His dad was a defense minister and here is what Jan was up to.



I’m not saying it isn’t possible to go from Marxist-Leninist to NATO general but there are certainly more direct paths.

Offline sys

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5964 on: February 15, 2023, 07:45:33 AM »
why would you stop reading when you encountered a fact that corroborates the author's thesis?
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5965 on: February 15, 2023, 08:20:51 AM »
why would you stop reading when you encountered a fact that corroborates the author's thesis?
Because he doesn’t seem aware or even really address the issue that Hersh raised, he just looked at the age and moved on.

Offline Cire

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5966 on: February 15, 2023, 10:34:38 AM »

Offline Cire

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5967 on: February 15, 2023, 02:09:00 PM »

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5968 on: February 15, 2023, 03:29:48 PM »
I will say that little nerd Oliver is a good little toadie for #neocondom


Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5969 on: February 20, 2023, 08:50:15 AM »

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5970 on: February 21, 2023, 09:29:41 AM »
Discussion about Joe looking like a caricature portrait in the bright Kyiv sunshine aside

Brilliant touch with the air raid sirens. It's that kind of symbolic propaganda that gets easily manipulated and highly propagandized armchair #neocons very very chubbed up and horny for (more) perpetual war

7/7

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5971 on: February 21, 2023, 12:22:33 PM »
Blinken tells Ukraine to not attack Crimea, Nuland tells Ukraine to attack Crimea.

I just wish you #neocons would get on the same page.  FFS


Offline Spracne

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5972 on: February 21, 2023, 12:26:12 PM »
In the end, WWIII ended up just being dax fighting with himself.
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Offline Institutional Control

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5973 on: February 21, 2023, 01:34:26 PM »

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #5974 on: February 21, 2023, 03:35:20 PM »
In the end, WWIII ended up just being dax fighting with himself.

Sigh, the same old tired dumb response . . .

sad