Author Topic: The Biden (interim) Dictator  (Read 315342 times)

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2450 on: August 12, 2021, 08:47:28 AM »
You're right, it's probably the eviction thing and not that it's been a brutal 18 months that continues on because your side (your words) refuse to be vaccinated.
The economy is open, there are millions of open jobs and companies are collectively offering billions of dollars in bonuses and incentives to people in order to fill those jobs.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2451 on: August 12, 2021, 08:55:02 AM »
I would really doubt there are very many healthcare professionals intentionally staying home because the government said they don't have to pay rent in august. 

Offline steve dave

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2452 on: August 12, 2021, 08:59:30 AM »
There are often multiple issues, though, and you need to read the syllabus and pay attention to which justices are joining which portions of the opinion, just to clarify. If someone can give me the case name, I will take a look and give you my view of what is settled. For steve dave, I am willing to spend 5-10 minutes on this task.
Damn, you rule

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2453 on: August 12, 2021, 09:00:48 AM »
I would really doubt there are very many healthcare professionals intentionally staying home because the government said they don't have to pay rent in august.
LOL, there are all kinds of other operations that are required to support those professionals. 

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2454 on: August 12, 2021, 04:37:29 PM »
First off I apologize because I went back and read and I sounded like a dick, so sorry for that justwin and thank you for the explanation spracne.  What I will say now—

The Supreme Court decided that it was ok for the moratorium in the past, possibly if the case is back before them it would be ok again. The fact that Kavanaugh said he wouldn’t say it was ok in the future is counter balanced by the fact that he cannot see in to the future.

There is certainly an argument that facts on the ground changed and thus Kavanaugh may once again decide that an extension is appropriate because of the exigent circumstances. Who is to say that 70.5 or 71 is still not better than 72 with the weather outside changing? The Biden admin also changed the restriction to places with high levels of transmission which is a new issue for the court to consider.  Maybe others will think differently too, maybe the entire court will find this executive overreach.

The Court is fundamentally reactive and so the only way to know if something the other branches do is ok is to test it. It would violate the 10-15 min rule but I would be pretty interested in looking at other 5-4 decisions with a concurring and seeing the history of how those stood up..


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Offline Spracne

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2455 on: August 12, 2021, 06:04:40 PM »
First off I apologize because I went back and read and I sounded like a dick, so sorry for that justwin and thank you for the explanation spracne.  What I will say now—

The Supreme Court decided that it was ok for the moratorium in the past, possibly if the case is back before them it would be ok again. The fact that Kavanaugh said he wouldn’t say it was ok in the future is counter balanced by the fact that he cannot see in to the future.

There is certainly an argument that facts on the ground changed and thus Kavanaugh may once again decide that an extension is appropriate because of the exigent circumstances. Who is to say that 70.5 or 71 is still not better than 72 with the weather outside changing? The Biden admin also changed the restriction to places with high levels of transmission which is a new issue for the court to consider.  Maybe others will think differently too, maybe the entire court will find this executive overreach.

The Court is fundamentally reactive and so the only way to know if something the other branches do is ok is to test it. It would violate the 10-15 min rule but I would be pretty interested in looking at other 5-4 decisions with a concurring and seeing the history of how those stood up..


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Some of the biggest cases in my lifetime have been plurality decisions like this. But while cases should always be decided on the narrowest constitutional grounds possible (doctrine of constitutional avoidance), that doctrine is construed more strictly in the case of plurality opinions. They do hold less value in the minds of most legal folks. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any that stand out before the 90s, so I can't give you a historical perspective. But I don't think that would be particularly instructive anyway. We all know that the composition of the Court changes over time. So yes, a future Court could easily find a way to reach a slightly different result and then construe the prior decision on the narrowest grounds possible as to obviate the need to overturn precedent. In short, it gives the Court a lot of wiggle room in the future, and perhaps intentionally so.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2456 on: August 12, 2021, 06:33:35 PM »
I think another specific point on this specific case was that the moratorium policy is temporary in nature and so unlikely that this will continue much longer no matter what.

Offline Justwin

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2457 on: August 12, 2021, 09:43:16 PM »
I think another specific point on this specific case was that the moratorium policy is temporary in nature and so unlikely that this will continue much longer no matter what.

At this point do you think the Court would believe the Biden administration if they said the moratorium is just "temporary" in nature and unlikely to continue much longer?  How long does something have to be in force until it's no longer temporary?

Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2458 on: August 13, 2021, 09:35:58 AM »
Happy reinstatement day! The interim presidents last day!
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

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Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2459 on: August 13, 2021, 09:46:46 AM »
Huh?

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2460 on: August 13, 2021, 09:55:03 AM »
Huh?

magas believe trump will be reinstated tomorrow.  Pretty widely held belief

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2461 on: August 13, 2021, 09:58:14 AM »
I think another specific point on this specific case was that the moratorium policy is temporary in nature and so unlikely that this will continue much longer no matter what.

At this point do you think the Court would believe the Biden administration if they said the moratorium is just "temporary" in nature and unlikely to continue much longer?  How long does something have to be in force until it's no longer temporary?

I guess we will find out, but the order itself had a sunset.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2463 on: August 13, 2021, 10:26:46 AM »
The best part of this past week has been the begging of OPEC to produce more oil.

What a complete clusterfuck of an administration.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2464 on: August 13, 2021, 10:39:40 AM »
Reportedly iPOTUS Joe didn't listen to his military commanders regarding Afghanistan.

Once upon a time ProgFacist Nation completely lost its crap when POTUS didn't listen to the military leaders

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2465 on: August 13, 2021, 01:12:51 PM »
https://twitter.com/comfortablysmug/status/1425882412500848640?s=21

I didn't want us to leave in the first place, so yeah I think Biden messed up. However, it's sad and predictable to see republicans using this as a political game. This was always something that he was going to take a high amount of criticism on, no matter what he did because this country is mumped up and incapable of unity on anything.

Offline Kid In the Hall

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2466 on: August 13, 2021, 01:33:09 PM »
Not that it really matters, but comparing Vietnam and Afghanistan is inherently stupid for zillions of reasons (and, from a PR standpoint, it was really stupid of the Biden Admin to make any kind of comparison).

To that point, the North Vietnamese military was, in fact, an enormously more formidable foe than the Taliban on virtually every level, yet it took them two years to capture Saigon after the U.S. essentially bailed on South Vietnam. The Taliban recaptured Afghanistan in a matter of weeks. So they, like, must be way better.

Right...

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2467 on: August 13, 2021, 01:38:19 PM »
Not that it really matters, but comparing Vietnam and Afghanistan is inherently stupid for zillions of reasons (and, from a PR standpoint, it was really stupid of the Biden Admin to make any kind of comparison).

To that point, the North Vietnamese military was, in fact, an enormously more formidable foe than the Taliban on virtually every level, yet it took them two years to capture Saigon after the U.S. essentially bailed on South Vietnam. The Taliban recaptured Afghanistan in a matter of weeks. So they, like, must be way better.

Right...

This is a question, I really don't know. Was the North Vietnamese army as well funded and received arms from as many sources as the Taliban?

Offline Kid In the Hall

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2468 on: August 13, 2021, 01:53:19 PM »
Not that it really matters, but comparing Vietnam and Afghanistan is inherently stupid for zillions of reasons (and, from a PR standpoint, it was really stupid of the Biden Admin to make any kind of comparison).

To that point, the North Vietnamese military was, in fact, an enormously more formidable foe than the Taliban on virtually every level, yet it took them two years to capture Saigon after the U.S. essentially bailed on South Vietnam. The Taliban recaptured Afghanistan in a matter of weeks. So they, like, must be way better.

Right...

This is a question, I really don't know. Was the North Vietnamese army as well funded and received arms from as many sources as the Taliban?

Like all things, it's complicated. But, yes is the basic answer. The scale of the Vietnam War compared to the Afghanistan War is like comparing Tuttle Creek Lake to the Pacific Ocean. That's not to be dismissive of the effort put in by members of the U.S. armed forces - it's just two completely different levels of scale.

One rudimentary comparison - the peak American troop level in Vietnam was around 600k in the late 60s/early 70s (and it was close to that figure for many years). The peak American troop level in Afghanistan was under 100k and it wasn't close to that level for terribly long.

Just two completely different scenarios/situations.

Offline Spracne

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2469 on: August 13, 2021, 02:48:51 PM »
https://twitter.com/comfortablysmug/status/1425882412500848640?s=21

I didn't want us to leave in the first place, so yeah I think Biden messed up. However, it's sad and predictable to see republicans using this as a political game. This was always something that he was going to take a high amount of criticism on, no matter what he did because this country is mumped up and incapable of unity on anything.

I appreciate the stones it takes to say either (a) we are going to permanently establish a presence in Afghanistan, or (b) we are cutting our losses and going home. To use it as a political football tossed from one administration to the next is not a good outcome. But really, there is no "good" outcome no matter what we do.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2470 on: August 13, 2021, 03:03:32 PM »
I think we should have kept our troops in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be withdrawing from any unstable region where we are already located. We also shouldn't be going into any new unstable regions.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2471 on: August 13, 2021, 04:07:56 PM »
I think we should have kept our troops in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be withdrawing from any unstable region where we are already located. We also shouldn't be going into any new unstable regions.
When was the last time Afghanistan was stable pre-Taliban? Actually curious.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2472 on: August 13, 2021, 04:11:41 PM »
If "doing what we are doing" prevents a theocratic Taliban government from having a reign of terror over a nation, then we should keep doing that. It's easy to continue doing what we are doing. No need to change anything.

Offline Kid In the Hall

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2473 on: August 13, 2021, 04:36:11 PM »
I think we should have kept our troops in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be withdrawing from any unstable region where we are already located. We also shouldn't be going into any new unstable regions.
When was the last time Afghanistan was stable pre-Taliban? Actually curious.

Likely many countries that have been used a token in the game of "Risk" played by the world's super powers, you could argue Afghanistan hasn't been stable in a long, long time (arguably going back to the 1940s/1950s). Depending on your definition of what counts as stable, you could argue there was a period of stability of about 5 years in the mid/late 70s, but that was after the Soviets had installed a puppet government as part of a coup. Then, the USSR and Afghanistan fought a 10-year war from the late 70s to the late 80s. Lots of instability in the 90s (though no massive war) and then 9/11 happened.

What's happening now is unfortunate, but the reality is that when the super powers use these countries to fight their proxy wars, the smaller countries almost always lose out in the end. You can make the case the US had a right to go in after 9/11 and that's fine. But, the US is responsible for fueling the rise of what became the Taliban when they partially funded the Afghans in the war against the USSR (for no real reason other than giving the bird to the Soviets).

Watch Charlie Wilson's War if you want the dumbed down cliffs notes.

On a purely fundamental level, if you're an Afghan under the age of 45, you've mostly lived your entire life with your country semi-occupied by a foreign power. If you take that into consideration, it's hard to get too peeved when many of them have the view that they just want the foreigners to get the eff out and leave them alone.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 04:45:22 PM by Kid In the Hall »

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #2474 on: August 13, 2021, 05:38:11 PM »
If "doing what we are doing" prevents a theocratic Taliban government from having a reign of terror over a nation, then we should keep doing that. It's easy to continue doing what we are doing. No need to change anything.
Easy for who?  I am a little conflicted because of course there are going to be a lot of people victimized, but I also think we can’t just stay in Afghanistan forever and shrinking the empire is good.


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