Author Topic: The Biden (interim) Dictator  (Read 303571 times)

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Offline bucket

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1050 on: February 19, 2021, 09:44:43 AM »
This is why I think that nothing should be done on the loan issue until the figure out the long term function and how that will change. 

College has just become too damn expensive.  I have heard a lot of arguments about it becoming so due to the fact that cheap loans and subsidies are a thing.  That partly makes sense to me, but I can also see how turning that tap off could be worse than having expensive college.

I don't think he should make a move on it unless they need to bolster the economy immediately, or until they figure out what will happen regarding loans, cost, or subsidies next.

College has become more expensive because states and the federal government fund higher ed at a fraction of what they used to. The costs of running a university has been placed on the student body.

Offline Spracne

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1051 on: February 19, 2021, 09:45:59 AM »
Are there people in here saying that forgiving hundreds of billions of dollars of loans will not cost the government anything?

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1052 on: February 19, 2021, 10:01:31 AM »
The student loan program isn't set up to make money. That said, it's also not set up to lose money. If you actually believe that the government can forgive the loans and somehow not lose an enormous amount of money, I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Again, I'm not going to pretend that I'm some budget wonk, so you very well may know something I don't, I only know what I read. If they are losing money by maintaining the program, IF, I don't don't understand how ending the program wouldn't mitigate those losses. If I'm not properly interpreting this please let me know how. I'm being sincere, not sarcastic.

https://money.cnn.com/2016/08/04/pf/college/federal-student-loan-profit/index.html
Quote
By one estimate, the federal student loan program could turn a profit of $1.6 billion in 2016, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

That's not a huge profit when you consider that the program lends out about $100 billion a year. But the CBO also projects that it would keep making money each year over the next decade.

That's the official calculation that government budget analysts are required -- by law -- to use when estimating the cost of the federal loan program.

But the CBO itself says there is a better way to calculate the money coming in and out of the loan program, which accounts for the risk that more students will fall behind or default on their loans than originally thought. So while the official estimate goes in the federal budget, the agency publishes both projections.

By that measure, the loan program would result in a loss for Uncle Sam -- and not an insignificant amount. It shows the government would lose about $20.6 billion this year, and would continue to lose money over the next decade.

The two estimates are so widely different because there's no way to know the exact cost of loans given out in one year until it's fully paid off -- and that could take 40 years, according to a report from the Government Accountability Office.

The losses are due to people not being able to pay their loans. If you forgive the loans, you lose all of the money that is forgiven. That's a much bigger number. I view the federal loan program as a failure and mostly agree with you that it should either be eliminated or drastically altered, but the budget neutral way to do that would be to stop issuing loans and continue collecting payment. Forgiving the loans leaves a lot of money owed to the government on the table.

Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1053 on: February 19, 2021, 10:56:00 AM »
Are you guise following the presidential pets on twitter?

https://twitter.com/TheOvalPawffice/status/1362567708034826241?s=20

Offline MadCat

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1054 on: February 19, 2021, 10:59:59 AM »
I'm a little confused with the 1st-person speech in conjunction with both dog and cat puns being used.


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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1056 on: February 19, 2021, 11:03:09 AM »
 :lol:

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1057 on: February 19, 2021, 11:21:22 AM »
Regime change under the guise of promoting human rights:  First stop-Haiti

Missed that call


Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1058 on: February 19, 2021, 12:47:36 PM »
The student loan program isn't set up to make money. That said, it's also not set up to lose money. If you actually believe that the government can forgive the loans and somehow not lose an enormous amount of money, I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Again, I'm not going to pretend that I'm some budget wonk, so you very well may know something I don't, I only know what I read. If they are losing money by maintaining the program, IF, I don't don't understand how ending the program wouldn't mitigate those losses. If I'm not properly interpreting this please let me know how. I'm being sincere, not sarcastic.

https://money.cnn.com/2016/08/04/pf/college/federal-student-loan-profit/index.html
Quote
By one estimate, the federal student loan program could turn a profit of $1.6 billion in 2016, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

That's not a huge profit when you consider that the program lends out about $100 billion a year. But the CBO also projects that it would keep making money each year over the next decade.

That's the official calculation that government budget analysts are required -- by law -- to use when estimating the cost of the federal loan program.

But the CBO itself says there is a better way to calculate the money coming in and out of the loan program, which accounts for the risk that more students will fall behind or default on their loans than originally thought. So while the official estimate goes in the federal budget, the agency publishes both projections.

By that measure, the loan program would result in a loss for Uncle Sam -- and not an insignificant amount. It shows the government would lose about $20.6 billion this year, and would continue to lose money over the next decade.

The two estimates are so widely different because there's no way to know the exact cost of loans given out in one year until it's fully paid off -- and that could take 40 years, according to a report from the Government Accountability Office.

The losses are due to people not being able to pay their loans. If you forgive the loans, you lose all of the money that is forgiven. That's a much bigger number. I view the federal loan program as a failure and mostly agree with you that it should either be eliminated or drastically altered, but the budget neutral way to do that would be to stop issuing loans and continue collecting payment. Forgiving the loans leaves a lot of money owed to the government on the table.

Okay, thank you for that. The next question is do we know how much the government pays banks to take these loans, how much the government pays when the loans default, and what the government's cost is to use the methods necessary to collect on these loans?

Doesn't the government have to pay the banks the interest rates for lenders in deferment and forbearance?

Aren't most of the costs to the government attributed to what they have to pay when the loans are defaulted on? 20% of loans being defaulted on won't stop without forgiveness.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1059 on: February 19, 2021, 01:06:35 PM »
The student loan program isn't set up to make money. That said, it's also not set up to lose money. If you actually believe that the government can forgive the loans and somehow not lose an enormous amount of money, I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Again, I'm not going to pretend that I'm some budget wonk, so you very well may know something I don't, I only know what I read. If they are losing money by maintaining the program, IF, I don't don't understand how ending the program wouldn't mitigate those losses. If I'm not properly interpreting this please let me know how. I'm being sincere, not sarcastic.

https://money.cnn.com/2016/08/04/pf/college/federal-student-loan-profit/index.html
Quote
By one estimate, the federal student loan program could turn a profit of $1.6 billion in 2016, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

That's not a huge profit when you consider that the program lends out about $100 billion a year. But the CBO also projects that it would keep making money each year over the next decade.

That's the official calculation that government budget analysts are required -- by law -- to use when estimating the cost of the federal loan program.

But the CBO itself says there is a better way to calculate the money coming in and out of the loan program, which accounts for the risk that more students will fall behind or default on their loans than originally thought. So while the official estimate goes in the federal budget, the agency publishes both projections.

By that measure, the loan program would result in a loss for Uncle Sam -- and not an insignificant amount. It shows the government would lose about $20.6 billion this year, and would continue to lose money over the next decade.

The two estimates are so widely different because there's no way to know the exact cost of loans given out in one year until it's fully paid off -- and that could take 40 years, according to a report from the Government Accountability Office.

The losses are due to people not being able to pay their loans. If you forgive the loans, you lose all of the money that is forgiven. That's a much bigger number. I view the federal loan program as a failure and mostly agree with you that it should either be eliminated or drastically altered, but the budget neutral way to do that would be to stop issuing loans and continue collecting payment. Forgiving the loans leaves a lot of money owed to the government on the table.

Okay, thank you for that. The next question is do we know how much the government pays banks to take these loans, how much the government pays when the loans default, and what the government's cost is to use the methods necessary to collect on these loans?

Doesn't the government have to pay the banks the interest rates for lenders in deferment and forbearance?

Aren't most of the costs to the government attributed to what they have to pay when the loans are defaulted on? 20% of loans being defaulted on won't stop without forgiveness.

I don't know all of the nuts and bolts regarding how the loans are administered. I just know that it costs a lot of money to forgive them.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2021/02/12/putting-student-loan-forgiveness-in-perspective-how-costly-is-it-and-who-benefits/#:~:text=Based%20on%20data%20from%20the,would%20cost%20about%20%241%20trillion.

Quote
Forgiving all student debt would be a transfer larger than the amounts the nation has spent over the past 20 years on unemployment insurance, larger than the amount it has spent on the Earned Income Tax Credit, and larger than the amount it has spent on food stamps. In 2020, about 43 million Americans relied on food stamps to feed their families. To be eligible, a household of three typically must earn less than $28,200 a year. The EITC, the nation’s largest antipoverty program, benefitted about 26 million working families in 2018. That year, the credit lifted almost 11 million Americans out of poverty, including about 6 million children, and reduced poverty for another 18 million individuals.

Forgiving up to $50,000 of student debt is similar in cost to the cumulative amount spent on Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and all housing assistance programs since 2000. Supplemental Security Income provides cash assistance to 8 million people who are disabled or elderly and have little income and few assets. Recipients must have less than $2,000 in assets. About half have zero other income.

The cost of forgiving $50,000 of student debt per borrower is almost twice as large as the federal government has spent on all Pell Grant recipients over the last two decades. In contrast to federal loans, which have no income eligibility limits and are available to undergraduates, graduate students, and parents, Pell Grants are awarded only to low- and middle-income undergraduate students with demonstrated financial need. About seven million students each year benefit, many of whom are poor and the majority of whom are non-white.

Even $10,000 in debt forgiveness would involve a transfer that is about as large as the country has spent on welfare (TANF) since 2000 and exceeds the amount spent since then on feeding hungry school children in high-poverty schools through the school breakfast and lunch program. Likewise, it dwarfs spending on programs that help feed low-income pregnant women and infants or provide energy assistance to those who otherwise struggle to heat their homes in winter.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1060 on: February 19, 2021, 01:09:33 PM »
This is why I think that nothing should be done on the loan issue until the figure out the long term function and how that will change. 

College has just become too damn expensive.  I have heard a lot of arguments about it becoming so due to the fact that cheap loans and subsidies are a thing.  That partly makes sense to me, but I can also see how turning that tap off could be worse than having expensive college.

I don't think he should make a move on it unless they need to bolster the economy immediately, or until they figure out what will happen regarding loans, cost, or subsidies next.

This is part of my issue with it as well, I feel like forgiveness doesn't inherently solve the problem, it's just a giant loss and then you can rerack things up unless you got a plan to counter act it.

there was maybe a semi-justifiable economic (leaving the constitution out of it) argument for debt forgiveness as the only viable path or any stimulus if mcconnell controlled the senate, but with dems controlling the senate calendar, and already slating trillions in covid relief and stimulus and additional trillions for infrastructure there is absolutely none.

I'm sympathetic to the arguments about college dropouts and debt (I'm guessing that's where Bidens 10k is coming from and push for CC/trade school, as in not everyone needs to party at a 4 yr uni), but at the same time I get the counterpoint that these were personal choices as well with risk/responsibility attached.

Seems somewhat contradictory to say the loan program is terrible yet still want free college access because it's a public good. What I mean is the loan program would still likely provide a public service if it's allowing cheaper access but maybe the argument is more about price control through rationing really cheap/free from the supply side vs price inflation if the market can just grow through loans and push costs those onto attendees.

This is a plan (10k and push for CC/trade schools) to me I am in very in favor for. It balances forgiving a goodly part of the debt (I know it could be as little as 10% for many) but hey, it doesn't hurt, and probably gets a significant amount of people out of debt, or near even. Add in the trade and CC schools that will really help funnel a significant population who really shouldn't be going to a 4 year to get into education paths with good paying jobs, and allow those who do the 4 years be able to get gen eds done and save a ton at the 4 years, it'll also force the 4 years to compete which (could) lower those prices.

The only other thing (besides figuring out long term) would be to get outstanding loans all refinanced down to like 1% or 2%, and any debt accrued via the delta of what that loan would've been at that new rate vs what it was kicked back into that person's pocket as a second form of stimulus. That will get some back in those people's hands, and also allow them to know their loans aren't really going to grow appreciably compared to the 5-6-7% loans some might carry.
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Offline star seed 7

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1061 on: February 19, 2021, 01:21:47 PM »
I hate the petspeak hooman stuff so much
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1062 on: February 19, 2021, 01:40:55 PM »
I think it probably makes more sense to target money to low income Americans. This would take care of student loan debt for people who can't afford to pay it and also help people who didn't go to college.

Offline steve dave

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1063 on: February 19, 2021, 02:13:25 PM »

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1064 on: February 19, 2021, 02:58:41 PM »
Friendship with putin has ended.  Boris is new best friend

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1065 on: February 19, 2021, 03:14:12 PM »
Group of German scientists conclude in 12 month study Covid came from Wuhan Lab.

Boris and iPOTUS Joe doubling down on a very very stern letter to President Xi

#leadership


Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1066 on: February 19, 2021, 03:18:03 PM »
In other news, the iPOTUS Biden administration clearly signaling they're going to step aside and let Euro partners/Germany help GazProm complete Nordstream 2.

A solid kick to Vlad Putin's Titanium cup from iPOTUS Joe if this occurs.


Offline Institutional Control

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1067 on: February 19, 2021, 03:37:33 PM »
Group of German scientists conclude in 12 month study Covid came from Wuhan Lab.

Boris and iPOTUS Joe doubling down on a very very stern letter to President Xi

#leadership

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/german-scientist-999-per-cent-sure-covid-leaked-from-wuhan-lab/ar-BB1dPo1K

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Dr Wiesendanger openly admitted to German media that he has no 'scientific basis' for believing the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1068 on: February 19, 2021, 03:46:34 PM »
Group of German scientists conclude in 12 month study Covid came from Wuhan Lab.

Boris and iPOTUS Joe doubling down on a very very stern letter to President Xi

#leadership

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/german-scientist-999-per-cent-sure-covid-leaked-from-wuhan-lab/ar-BB1dPo1K

Quote
Dr Wiesendanger openly admitted to German media that he has no 'scientific basis' for believing the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab.

But he was 99.9% sure that it did.

Follow the science (until we tell you not to follow the science, and it's okay if we don't follow the science at all . . . BTW we'll determine what is or isn't science)




Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1069 on: February 19, 2021, 03:50:05 PM »
Group of German scientists conclude in 12 month study Covid came from Wuhan Lab.

Boris and iPOTUS Joe doubling down on a very very stern letter to President Xi

#leadership

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/german-scientist-999-per-cent-sure-covid-leaked-from-wuhan-lab/ar-BB1dPo1K

Quote
Dr Wiesendanger openly admitted to German media that he has no 'scientific basis' for believing the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab.
:lol:
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1071 on: February 19, 2021, 04:12:57 PM »
Da Big PsychoStalker can’t seem to flush himself.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1073 on: February 19, 2021, 04:19:32 PM »
I have a bad feeling that Biden is about to completely depants us with all of his empty promises. Man, we’ve been duped!

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #1074 on: February 19, 2021, 04:29:33 PM »
It's Obama do over.

Say all the nice things that get simpleton ProgFascists all fired up, do the exact opposite behind the scenes where it really matters.

Giant dope ProgFacists (numbering in the millions) won't know because their reps in the media will lob softballs all day.

The Saudi interdictions into Yemen for 'self defense' are likely coming any day.

Defending human rights will provide air cover for regime change as needed.