Author Topic: The Biden (interim) Dictator  (Read 314641 times)

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Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7000 on: March 01, 2023, 10:09:55 AM »
is there any argument against the debt forgiveness that doesn't ultimately just boil down to spite? like, "well if i had to pay my student loans then so do you"

and like i can understand that sentiment but a) should being spiteful really factor into a SCOTUS decision? and 2)we have so so so many instances of "fair for me but not for thee" that are just woven into the fabric of what it means to be an American, what if just for once, just for kidzies-aroundzies, we let some middle class folks be the ones on the benefiting end? like would that really be so horrible of a thing to happen?

Everybody seemed to be on board when we bailed out a bunch of wall street gazillionaires to the tune of 475 billion (and that was in 2008, which apparently is equivalent to 660 billion in todays dollars) , but we cant seem to stomach 305 billion spread out over the next 10 years?

full disclosure i did have student loan debt after graduation and i paid it off within a few years of graduating and i'm not going to pretend like it wouldn't have been awesome to have that sweet cash freed up to spend it on more fun things. I guess i just don't have the opinion that "well i had to suffer so everyone else should also have to suffer" should have any merit from a legal standpoint

Online Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7001 on: March 01, 2023, 10:15:09 AM »
is there any argument against the debt forgiveness that doesn't ultimately just boil down to spite? like, "well if i had to pay my student loans then so do you"

and like i can understand that sentiment but a) should being spiteful really factor into a SCOTUS decision? and 2)we have so so so many instances of "fair for me but not for thee" that are just woven into the fabric of what it means to be an American, what if just for once, just for kidzies-aroundzies, we let some middle class folks be the ones on the benefiting end? like would that really be so horrible of a thing to happen?

Everybody seemed to be on board when we bailed out a bunch of wall street gazillionaires to the tune of 475 billion (and that was in 2008, which apparently is equivalent to 660 billion in todays dollars) , but we cant seem to stomach 305 billion spread out over the next 10 years?

full disclosure i did have student loan debt after graduation and i paid it off within a few years of graduating and i'm not going to pretend like it wouldn't have been awesome to have that sweet cash freed up to spend it on more fun things. I guess i just don't have the opinion that "well i had to suffer so everyone else should also have to suffer" should have any merit from a legal standpoint

It's inflationary and unemployment numbers indicate that the economy is doing really well. Loan forgiveness would have made a lot of sense in 2008 because it would have stimulated the economy and created jobs. Creating jobs is kind of pointless when we already have more jobs than workers.

Offline CNS

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7002 on: March 01, 2023, 10:31:23 AM »
The argument against is that it would need to continually take place over and over as we aren't fixing any of the problems causing the issue.  We would be taking on massive additional debt, and then every politician that needs more votes, every decade or so, will do it again and again.  I guess this doesn't matter at all if you are of the opinion that we can go into infinite debt. 

That said, I am not sure if I am for or against it right now, this time. 

I am also 99.9999% sure that our system doesn't have the functionality to actually resolve the root issue.  No one with any power is incentivized to do so.  The For The People part is all broken, maybe irreparably. The only carrots and sticks left are all awarded/wielded by corporations or large donor interest groups.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7003 on: March 01, 2023, 10:55:50 AM »
Dear college and universities, keep piling on costs and don't worry, we'll foist a bunch of loans on students and then when they get really really mad and the outstanding balance is a trillion or two or so, then we'll just forgive the debt and start over . . . but you guys, don't worry about it, change nothing, keep charging $30-$40-$50k a year (all in) to go to mediocre (insert name here) state university, and you privates, enjoy!  :thumbsup:

Offline Spracne

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7004 on: March 01, 2023, 11:21:47 AM »
Dear college and universities, keep piling on costs and don't worry, we'll foist a bunch of loans on students and then when they get really really mad and the outstanding balance is a trillion or two or so, then we'll just forgive the debt and start over . . . but you guys, don't worry about it, change nothing, keep charging $30-$40-$50k a year (all in) to go to mediocre (Kansas?) State University, and you privates, enjoy!  :thumbsup:

?

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7005 on: March 01, 2023, 11:34:42 AM »
Dear college and universities, keep piling on costs and don't worry, we'll foist a bunch of loans on students and then when they get really really mad and the outstanding balance is a trillion or two or so, then we'll just forgive the debt and start over . . . but you guys, don't worry about it, change nothing, keep charging $30-$40-$50k a year (all in) to go to mediocre (Kansas?) State University, and you privates, enjoy!  :thumbsup:

?

KU is an excruciatingly mediocre school where the constituency has been brainwashed into believing it's a really good school . . . it isn't

And no school that graduates 10K at a time is a particularly great school across the board, either.

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« Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 11:39:10 AM by sonofdaxjones »

Online Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7006 on: March 01, 2023, 11:58:32 AM »
KU and K-State are both great schools. K-State offers a slightly better cost value, but both are pretty good there when compared to colleges in other states.

Online Justwin

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7007 on: March 01, 2023, 12:15:09 PM »
is there any argument against the debt forgiveness that doesn't ultimately just boil down to spite? like, "well if i had to pay my student loans then so do you"

and like i can understand that sentiment but a) should being spiteful really factor into a SCOTUS decision? and 2)we have so so so many instances of "fair for me but not for thee" that are just woven into the fabric of what it means to be an American, what if just for once, just for kidzies-aroundzies, we let some middle class folks be the ones on the benefiting end? like would that really be so horrible of a thing to happen?

Everybody seemed to be on board when we bailed out a bunch of wall street gazillionaires to the tune of 475 billion (and that was in 2008, which apparently is equivalent to 660 billion in todays dollars) , but we cant seem to stomach 305 billion spread out over the next 10 years?

full disclosure i did have student loan debt after graduation and i paid it off within a few years of graduating and i'm not going to pretend like it wouldn't have been awesome to have that sweet cash freed up to spend it on more fun things. I guess i just don't have the opinion that "well i had to suffer so everyone else should also have to suffer" should have any merit from a legal standpoint

There are other reasons as well, but one of the main reasons I am opposed to it is that I think the power of the executive branch needs to be cut down substantially. I do not buy the argument that this is what Congress had in mind in the HEROES Act and think for something like this, Congress needs to pass legislation and then have it signed into law by the president.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7008 on: March 01, 2023, 12:17:04 PM »
is there any argument against the debt forgiveness that doesn't ultimately just boil down to spite? like, "well if i had to pay my student loans then so do you"

and like i can understand that sentiment but a) should being spiteful really factor into a SCOTUS decision? and 2)we have so so so many instances of "fair for me but not for thee" that are just woven into the fabric of what it means to be an American, what if just for once, just for kidzies-aroundzies, we let some middle class folks be the ones on the benefiting end? like would that really be so horrible of a thing to happen?

Everybody seemed to be on board when we bailed out a bunch of wall street gazillionaires to the tune of 475 billion (and that was in 2008, which apparently is equivalent to 660 billion in todays dollars) , but we cant seem to stomach 305 billion spread out over the next 10 years?

full disclosure i did have student loan debt after graduation and i paid it off within a few years of graduating and i'm not going to pretend like it wouldn't have been awesome to have that sweet cash freed up to spend it on more fun things. I guess i just don't have the opinion that "well i had to suffer so everyone else should also have to suffer" should have any merit from a legal standpoint
The problem is college is too expensive.  The government volunteering to eat the cost not only doesn't solve the problem, but actually makes it worse.


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Online Justwin

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7009 on: March 01, 2023, 12:19:07 PM »
is there any argument against the debt forgiveness that doesn't ultimately just boil down to spite? like, "well if i had to pay my student loans then so do you"

and like i can understand that sentiment but a) should being spiteful really factor into a SCOTUS decision? and 2)we have so so so many instances of "fair for me but not for thee" that are just woven into the fabric of what it means to be an American, what if just for once, just for kidzies-aroundzies, we let some middle class folks be the ones on the benefiting end? like would that really be so horrible of a thing to happen?

Everybody seemed to be on board when we bailed out a bunch of wall street gazillionaires to the tune of 475 billion (and that was in 2008, which apparently is equivalent to 660 billion in todays dollars) , but we cant seem to stomach 305 billion spread out over the next 10 years?

full disclosure i did have student loan debt after graduation and i paid it off within a few years of graduating and i'm not going to pretend like it wouldn't have been awesome to have that sweet cash freed up to spend it on more fun things. I guess i just don't have the opinion that "well i had to suffer so everyone else should also have to suffer" should have any merit from a legal standpoint
The problem is college is too expensive.  The government volunteering to eat the cost not only doesn't solve the problem, but actually makes it worse.

College is too inexpensive. It needs to get more expensive and we need an enrollment level that is 50% of what it currently is. The federal government does not need to be incentivizing more people to go to college.

Offline Kid In the Hall

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7010 on: March 01, 2023, 12:35:01 PM »
Putting a cap on the interest rate and/or making the rate miniscule would be a better solution than debt forgiveness and it solves the issue of needing to repeat forgiveness every XX years.

Beyond that, having an incentive program for federal debt forgiveness that isn't a complete joke would be great too (work 10 years as a teacher, nurse, at an NGO/non-profit, etc. and get remaining debt forgiven if you're in good standing, etc.).

Offline sys

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7011 on: March 01, 2023, 01:25:51 PM »
the aforementioned reasons are good ones, but another that should be mentioned is that if you're going to blow a half trillion (or more) of new spending at something that builds nothing, produces nothing, creates nothing of public use, directing that money at the richest segment of society rather people living more challenged lives is obscene.
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Offline sys

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7012 on: March 01, 2023, 01:30:06 PM »
The standing of the states in the first case is suspect (as it relates to a "concrete, particularized injury"). The standing of the plaintiffs in the second case (one a commercial borrower; one a non-pell-grant recipient) is more easily cognizable. But I remember when I thought this kind of analysis mattered. It will be invalidated, and there will be reasons articulated. Because reasons.

i've not been schooled in legal arcana, so to me the idea that no one can challenge a public officer obviously breaking a law seems like a bit of legal sophistry that's a good deal worse than the court charged with arbitrating those laws having to stretch to find rationale to undertake the task for which they were created.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline CNS

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7013 on: March 01, 2023, 01:46:30 PM »
is there any argument against the debt forgiveness that doesn't ultimately just boil down to spite? like, "well if i had to pay my student loans then so do you"

and like i can understand that sentiment but a) should being spiteful really factor into a SCOTUS decision? and 2)we have so so so many instances of "fair for me but not for thee" that are just woven into the fabric of what it means to be an American, what if just for once, just for kidzies-aroundzies, we let some middle class folks be the ones on the benefiting end? like would that really be so horrible of a thing to happen?

Everybody seemed to be on board when we bailed out a bunch of wall street gazillionaires to the tune of 475 billion (and that was in 2008, which apparently is equivalent to 660 billion in todays dollars) , but we cant seem to stomach 305 billion spread out over the next 10 years?

full disclosure i did have student loan debt after graduation and i paid it off within a few years of graduating and i'm not going to pretend like it wouldn't have been awesome to have that sweet cash freed up to spend it on more fun things. I guess i just don't have the opinion that "well i had to suffer so everyone else should also have to suffer" should have any merit from a legal standpoint

There are other reasons as well, but one of the main reasons I am opposed to it is that I think the power of the executive branch needs to be cut down substantially. I do not buy the argument that this is what Congress had in mind in the HEROES Act and think for something like this, Congress needs to pass legislation and then have it signed into law by the president.

I fully agree with the executive power problem.

Offline Spracne

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7014 on: March 01, 2023, 02:10:55 PM »
The standing of the states in the first case is suspect (as it relates to a "concrete, particularized injury"). The standing of the plaintiffs in the second case (one a commercial borrower; one a non-pell-grant recipient) is more easily cognizable. But I remember when I thought this kind of analysis mattered. It will be invalidated, and there will be reasons articulated. Because reasons.

i've not been schooled in legal arcana, so to me the idea that no one can challenge a public officer obviously breaking a law seems like a bit of legal sophistry that's a good deal worse than the court charged with arbitrating those laws having to stretch to find rationale to undertake the task for which they were created.

Article III of the Constitution gives federal courts the power to decide "cases or controversies." The Supreme Court developed the doctrine of "standing" to describe what exactly is a "case[] or controversy." Standing under federal jurisdiction has three elements: (1) a concrete, particularized injury; (2) fairly traceable to a defendant's conduct; and (3) redressable by action of the [federal] court. (There are tons and tons of glosses about what these elements mean in context.)

That's why states suing the federal government because they don't like a law that has been passed is generally BS. All plaintiffs have to demonstrate standing. It's a threshold issue, as it is a matter of "subject matter jurisdiction," and all courts have a duty to question sua sponte ("on their own") whether they have subject matter jurisdiction at all stages of litigation, whether or not a litigant raises the issue. The courts do not stand as super-legislators, and they are supposed to respect the separation of powers (in this case, between the Judiciary and the Executive Branches). These are the main reasons why the doctrine of standing has been read into Article III.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7015 on: March 01, 2023, 02:20:48 PM »
The standing of the states in the first case is suspect (as it relates to a "concrete, particularized injury"). The standing of the plaintiffs in the second case (one a commercial borrower; one a non-pell-grant recipient) is more easily cognizable. But I remember when I thought this kind of analysis mattered. It will be invalidated, and there will be reasons articulated. Because reasons.

i've not been schooled in legal arcana, so to me the idea that no one can challenge a public officer obviously breaking a law seems like a bit of legal sophistry that's a good deal worse than the court charged with arbitrating those laws having to stretch to find rationale to undertake the task for which they were created.

Article III of the Constitution gives federal courts the power to decide "cases or controversies." The Supreme Court developed the doctrine of "standing" to describe what exactly is a "case[] or controversy." Standing under federal jurisdiction has three elements: (1) a concrete, particularized injury; (2) fairly traceable to a defendant's conduct; and (3) redressable by action of the [federal] court. (There are tons and tons of glosses about what these elements mean in context.)

That's why states suing the federal government because they don't like a law that has been passed is generally BS. All plaintiffs have to demonstrate standing. It's a threshold issue, as it is a matter of "subject matter jurisdiction," and all courts have a duty to question sua sponte ("on their own") whether they have subject matter jurisdiction at all stages of litigation, whether or not a litigant raises the issue. The courts do not stand as super-legislators, and they are supposed to respect the separation of powers (in this case, between the Judiciary and the Executive Branches). These are the main reasons why the doctrine of standing has been read into Article III.
I think it should be pointed out that, in lamenting the Court’s anticipated flexing of the standing requirement here, you implicitly refer to the Court’s overturning of Roe, a case in which the Court famously utilized a novel exception to the classic standing/mootness doctrine.

There should always be room for equitable considerations on issues of standing.

Offline Spracne

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7016 on: March 01, 2023, 02:28:57 PM »
The standing of the states in the first case is suspect (as it relates to a "concrete, particularized injury"). The standing of the plaintiffs in the second case (one a commercial borrower; one a non-pell-grant recipient) is more easily cognizable. But I remember when I thought this kind of analysis mattered. It will be invalidated, and there will be reasons articulated. Because reasons.

i've not been schooled in legal arcana, so to me the idea that no one can challenge a public officer obviously breaking a law seems like a bit of legal sophistry that's a good deal worse than the court charged with arbitrating those laws having to stretch to find rationale to undertake the task for which they were created.

Article III of the Constitution gives federal courts the power to decide "cases or controversies." The Supreme Court developed the doctrine of "standing" to describe what exactly is a "case[] or controversy." Standing under federal jurisdiction has three elements: (1) a concrete, particularized injury; (2) fairly traceable to a defendant's conduct; and (3) redressable by action of the [federal] court. (There are tons and tons of glosses about what these elements mean in context.)

That's why states suing the federal government because they don't like a law that has been passed is generally BS. All plaintiffs have to demonstrate standing. It's a threshold issue, as it is a matter of "subject matter jurisdiction," and all courts have a duty to question sua sponte ("on their own") whether they have subject matter jurisdiction at all stages of litigation, whether or not a litigant raises the issue. The courts do not stand as super-legislators, and they are supposed to respect the separation of powers (in this case, between the Judiciary and the Executive Branches). These are the main reasons why the doctrine of standing has been read into Article III.
I think it should be pointed out that, in lamenting the Court’s anticipated flexing of the standing requirement here, you implicitly refer to the Court’s overturning of Roe, a case in which the Court famously utilized a novel exception to the classic standing/mootness doctrine.

There should always be room for equitable considerations on issues of standing.

Yes, they carve equitable exceptions. In the case of Roe, it was the "capable of repetition, yet evading revue" exception, because obviously it takes more than 9 months for a case to reach SCOTUS. Do you think an exception applies here? Here, I believe the question is whether standing existed when the case was filed. That wasn't the case with Roe.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 05:15:39 PM by Spracne »

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7017 on: March 01, 2023, 02:47:18 PM »
Personally I don’t think you should even need an exception to get there. Without question this level of loan forgiveness would have a tangible impact on practically every American. Heck, that’s basically the stated purpose of the policy.

Obviously that type of argument has been used plenty of times unsuccessfully, but I think this is a pretty compelling case for its application.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7018 on: March 01, 2023, 03:05:42 PM »
the aforementioned reasons are good ones, but another that should be mentioned is that if you're going to blow a half trillion (or more) of new spending at something that builds nothing, produces nothing, creates nothing of public use, directing that money at the richest segment of society rather people living more challenged lives is obscene.
firstly, i agree w/ everyone that this is just treating the symptom and not the underlying problem. College has gotten un-necessarily expensive and for no other reason than greed. And when the free market won't bear it, rather than reduce the price like that good old invisible hand would mandate, instead they put their thumb on the scales and come up with new and exciting ways of making it easier for 18 year old kids to have access to predatory loans that they almost assuredly don't fully understand of which the vast majority of them will not be able to make their payments in full, on time, and on schedule.

i think its a bit of a stretch to classify the people who would be receiving this debt forgiveness as "the richest segment of society" The eligible persons for this forgiveness are predominantly middle/slightly upper middle class people who are fairly new to the workforce and relatively low earners - at least as far as full time/salaried workers go.

I don't think its fair to just say it "produces nothing" because the fact is when people who are living paycheck to paycheck and then they suddenly have an influx of cash - as in, a no longer having to pay an otherwise recurring payment - they always always always put it right back in to the local economy, because that makes sense right? You don't have the luxury of just setting aside lots of money to save it for a rainy day, so you spend on stuff that you need. Most likely the people living paycheck to paycheck are not able to take care of all of their needs, so that extra money will allow them to do so. It is only the rich that horde their money, which they absolutely unequivocally do, without fail.

So of that $30B a year, just about all of it is going to get pumped right back into the economy instead of just lining the pockets of the already super wealthy.

fwiw i also agree with you in the sense that if we are just going to be spending $30B a year i would much rather see it go to the poorest people that need it the most, but that's an even tougher sell to the american people unfortunately because we really hate poor people and really hate doing anything to help them or make their lives even slightly less miserable. All i'm saying is its not like that $30B every year is just getting lit on fire, it actually will legitimately "trickle down" as you Reaganites like to say.


Offline CNS

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7019 on: March 01, 2023, 03:23:15 PM »
the aforementioned reasons are good ones, but another that should be mentioned is that if you're going to blow a half trillion (or more) of new spending at something that builds nothing, produces nothing, creates nothing of public use, directing that money at the richest segment of society rather people living more challenged lives is obscene.
firstly, i agree w/ everyone that this is just treating the symptom and not the underlying problem. College has gotten un-necessarily expensive and for no other reason than greed. And when the free market won't bear it, rather than reduce the price like that good old invisible hand would mandate, instead they put their thumb on the scales and come up with new and exciting ways of making it easier for 18 year old kids to have access to predatory loans that they almost assuredly don't fully understand of which the vast majority of them will not be able to make their payments in full, on time, and on schedule.

i think its a bit of a stretch to classify the people who would be receiving this debt forgiveness as "the richest segment of society" The eligible persons for this forgiveness are predominantly middle/slightly upper middle class people who are fairly new to the workforce and relatively low earners - at least as far as full time/salaried workers go.

I don't think its fair to just say it "produces nothing" because the fact is when people who are living paycheck to paycheck and then they suddenly have an influx of cash - as in, a no longer having to pay an otherwise recurring payment - they always always always put it right back in to the local economy, because that makes sense right? You don't have the luxury of just setting aside lots of money to save it for a rainy day, so you spend on stuff that you need. Most likely the people living paycheck to paycheck are not able to take care of all of their needs, so that extra money will allow them to do so. It is only the rich that horde their money, which they absolutely unequivocally do, without fail.

So of that $30B a year, just about all of it is going to get pumped right back into the economy instead of just lining the pockets of the already super wealthy.

fwiw i also agree with you in the sense that if we are just going to be spending $30B a year i would much rather see it go to the poorest people that need it the most, but that's an even tougher sell to the american people unfortunately because we really hate poor people and really hate doing anything to help them or make their lives even slightly less miserable. All i'm saying is its not like that $30B every year is just getting lit on fire, it actually will legitimately "trickle down" as you Reaganites like to say.

It won't trickle down.  Nothing trickles down.  It will trickle up.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7020 on: March 01, 2023, 03:59:11 PM »
good point. BUT IT WILL TRICKLE, THOUGH!

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7021 on: March 01, 2023, 04:25:32 PM »
Yeah, it's a big shot in the arm to the economy that the fed is currently trying to slam the brakes on by raising interest rates.

Offline sys

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7022 on: March 01, 2023, 05:48:44 PM »
All i'm saying is its not like that $30B every year is just getting lit on fire.

yeah, my argument was narrower than you might have taken it to be.  i'm not saying that giving people money is inherently valueless.  money has utility, i think we all agree with that.

however pure redistribution of money among the populace is different than public expenditures that produce something of public value.  if we spend 500b to building highways, or trains or transmission lines or whatever, a lot of people will soak up a lot of those publicly allocated dollars, but that's not the end goal, the objective is the production of the public good caused to be built.

with debt forgiveness, we aren't even increasing higher ed capacity or quality, it's all retroactive shifting of private expenditures onto the public ledger.
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Offline kim carnes

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7023 on: March 07, 2023, 09:09:27 AM »
You know this guy is old when he thinks households that make over 400k per year are rich

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: The Biden (interim) Dictator
« Reply #7024 on: March 07, 2023, 11:52:47 AM »
You know this guy is old when he thinks households that make over 400k per year are rich

that would be in the top 2% of earners

would seemingly qualify