Athletes Forcing Change

[star seed 7]

Is a tweet of "I love looking at big tits in sundresses" specifically harrass a segment of the population?

[DQ12]

People pretty clearly feel harassed by the tweet and Jayden pretty clearly doesn't care. I'm really not sure how one could come to the conclusion that the tweet wasn't intended to harass a specific segment of the population.

And that's where the disagreement is I guess -- I don't think anyone felt "harassed" by the tweet, at least not without taking an extreme view of what "harassment" is.  I think they came upon the tweet (likely via retweet through someone they follow) and felt offended (which makes sense, given that it was a very offensive tweet). 

If McNeil tweeted that @ a black student, I think that's closer to harassment.  If McNeil walked up to a black student he didn't know and made that joke, then I think that's closer to harassment.  If he walked up to the same student every day and made that same joke, then I think it's pretty clear. 

[Spracne]

Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?

Why would that rule exist, people's tweets are their words? Why would tweets need to be separately legislated, speech already is?

Twitter is a pretty unique medium, imo.  But I'll rephrase: Do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive speech is punishable by government institutions," where "offensive speech" is defined broadly enough to include things like "offensive tweets"?

Seems like a good rule, but only if MIR specifically is offended by the speech. Fragility, smdh.

You're not nearly close to as clever as you think you are. I haven't said a goddamned thing about being offensive. I live for offending people like you who think that knowing the difference between being offended and being harassed is some erudite thought process.

Stop harassing me.

Iowa Code § 708.7 Harassment

"A person commits harassment when, with intent to ... annoy ... another person, ... [c]ommunicates with another ... via electronic communication ... in a manner likely to cause the other person annoyance ...."

[Rage Against the McKee]

Is a tweet of "I love looking at big tits in sundresses" specifically harrass a segment of the population?

I don't think so. If it was tweeted during mass riots related to big tits in sundresses, athletes were felt harassed to the point that they decide to just not play sports anymore, and the person who made the tweet organized and runs a hate group, I think I would reconsider, though.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Or if Harvey Weinstein tweeted about tits in sundresses, that would be harassment.

[star seed 7]

Is a tweet of "I love looking at big tits in sundresses" specifically harrass a segment of the population?

I don't think so. If it was tweeted during mass riots related to big tits in sundresses, athletes were felt harassed to the point that they decide to just not play sports anymore, and the person who made the tweet organized and runs a hate group, I think I would reconsider, though.

So because #metoo has fallen out of the media spotlight, it's no longer harassment? That's certainly an interesting argument.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Is a tweet of "I love looking at big tits in sundresses" specifically harrass a segment of the population?

I don't think so. If it was tweeted during mass riots related to big tits in sundresses, athletes were felt harassed to the point that they decide to just not play sports anymore, and the person who made the tweet organized and runs a hate group, I think I would reconsider, though.

So because #metoo has fallen out of the media spotlight, it's no longer harassment? That's certainly an interesting argument.

The media doesn't have much to do with it. If you want to start an incel group, more power to you, but when you start tweeting about women, the women who know you are going to feel harassed.

[star seed 7]

Are people who tweet that Jaden is a deplorable piece of crap harrasing him? (let's ignore the differences for public figures for the moment)

[Rage Against the McKee]

Are people who tweet that Jaden is a deplorable piece of crap harrasing him? (let's ignore the differences for public figures for the moment)

Some of them are. It's the problem with doing nothing. It encourages more bad behavior in retaliation.

[gatoveintisiete]

I'm loving lib7 today for looking at issues objectively and realizing that policy needs to work consistently in all cases, not just when it fits your personal ideology.    

[star seed 7]

 

[gatoveintisiete]

 

[MakeItRain]

People pretty clearly feel harassed by the tweet and Jayden pretty clearly doesn't care. I'm really not sure how one could come to the conclusion that the tweet wasn't intended to harass a specific segment of the population.

While this is true, I feel like making what should have happened to Jaden about one tweet is a losing proposition, is a losing proposition and minimizing the magnitude of needing to protect minority students from harassment on the basis of their race. This will just be a never-ending cycle of whataboutism with theoretical tweets about god knows what. The larger conversation is more important, IMO, and talking about one tweet makes it very easy for most people to completely ignore the larger conversation.

[MakeItRain]

I'm loving lib7 today for looking at issues objectively and realizing that policy needs to work consistently in all cases, not just when it fits your personal ideology.   

Isn't your finding that he, and not the people he is disagreeing, are being objective, fitting your personal ideology?

[gatoveintisiete]

You can't legislate morality

Is there a law that doesn't legislate morality? Are you familiar with what laws are?

The point, you ignoramus is that passing law does not make people act morally, if it did we would not have overcrowded prisons.

[gatoveintisiete]

I'm loving lib7 today for looking at issues objectively and realizing that policy needs to work consistently in all cases, not just when it fits your personal ideology.   

Isn't your finding that he, and not the people he is disagreeing, are being objective, fitting your personal ideology?

no

[BIG APPLE CAT]

People pretty clearly feel harassed by the tweet and Jayden pretty clearly doesn't care. I'm really not sure how one could come to the conclusion that the tweet wasn't intended to harass a specific segment of the population.

While this is true, I feel like making what should have happened to Jaden about one tweet is a losing proposition, is a losing proposition and minimizing the magnitude of needing to protect minority students from harassment on the basis of their race. This will just be a never-ending cycle of whataboutism with theoretical tweets about god knows what. The larger conversation is more important, IMO, and talking about one tweet makes it very easy for most people to completely ignore the larger conversation.

So MIR i'm sincerely asking you this in good faith, but what do you think should be done? What does justice being done on Jaden look like?

[MakeItRain]

You can't legislate morality

Is there a law that doesn't legislate morality? Are you familiar with what laws are?

The point, you ignoramus is that passing law does not make people act morally, if it did we would not have overcrowded prisons.

So is your point that we shouldn't have any laws, because some people won't follow them?

[MakeItRain]

I'm loving lib7 today for looking at issues objectively and realizing that policy needs to work consistently in all cases, not just when it fits your personal ideology.   

Isn't your finding that he, and not the people he is disagreeing, are being objective, fitting your personal ideology?

no

Didn't think so.

[MakeItRain]

People pretty clearly feel harassed by the tweet and Jayden pretty clearly doesn't care. I'm really not sure how one could come to the conclusion that the tweet wasn't intended to harass a specific segment of the population.

While this is true, I feel like making what should have happened to Jaden about one tweet is a losing proposition, is a losing proposition and minimizing the magnitude of needing to protect minority students from harassment on the basis of their race. This will just be a never-ending cycle of whataboutism with theoretical tweets about god knows what. The larger conversation is more important, IMO, and talking about one tweet makes it very easy for most people to completely ignore the larger conversation.

So MIR i'm sincerely asking you this in good faith, but what do you think should be done? What does justice being done on Jaden look like?

He should have been expelled.

My biggest problem with reducing this to one tweet is that, let's say it wasn't Jaden that tweeted that George Floyd tweet, but it was our buddy Greg. Does this shake out the way that it did? Does it get immediate traction? Does he double down? Does he ask his followers to retaliate against the athletes protesting or twitter accounts who lashed out at him for the tweet? Kansas State University has 22,000 students, what are the odds that Jaden is the only one of them that has either tweeted or retweeted something distasteful about BLM, or George Floyd, or Breonna Taylor, or any other black person killed by the police? Of course not, I'm sure It has happened since. The talking point that the university should acted on that tweet alone is incredibly frustrating, and even more frustrating that so many people are falling for this obvious shell game.

[kashi1965]

People pretty clearly feel harassed by the tweet and Jayden pretty clearly doesn't care. I'm really not sure how one could come to the conclusion that the tweet wasn't intended to harass a specific segment of the population.

While this is true, I feel like making what should have happened to Jaden about one tweet is a losing proposition, is a losing proposition and minimizing the magnitude of needing to protect minority students from harassment on the basis of their race. This will just be a never-ending cycle of whataboutism with theoretical tweets about god knows what. The larger conversation is more important, IMO, and talking about one tweet makes it very easy for most people to completely ignore the larger conversation.

so what does Jadens past tweets look like? is there a pattern of tweets that could reasonably be seen as offensive in a race perspective? i dont follow the kid and have no clue if this was a first offense or a repeated behavior. i am starting to come around to the idea that this kids past writings and speakings could create an entity that instills fear in others by his use of language which has been reflected by others who are racist.

[Trim]

He's not just a tweeter.

https://www.irehr.org/2020/02/27/an-affinity-for-bigotry-jaden-mcneil-of-america-first-students/

[sonofdaxjones]

People pretty clearly feel harassed by the tweet and Jayden pretty clearly doesn't care. I'm really not sure how one could come to the conclusion that the tweet wasn't intended to harass a specific segment of the population.

While this is true, I feel like making what should have happened to Jaden about one tweet is a losing proposition, is a losing proposition and minimizing the magnitude of needing to protect minority students from harassment on the basis of their race. This will just be a never-ending cycle of whataboutism with theoretical tweets about god knows what. The larger conversation is more important, IMO, and talking about one tweet makes it very easy for most people to completely ignore the larger conversation.

So MIR i'm sincerely asking you this in good faith, but what do you think should be done? What does justice being done on Jaden look like?

He should have been expelled.

My biggest problem with reducing this to one tweet is that, let's say it wasn't Jaden that tweeted that George Floyd tweet, but it was our buddy Greg. Does this shake out the way that it did? Does it get immediate traction? Does he double down? Does he ask his followers to retaliate against the athletes protesting or twitter accounts who lashed out at him for the tweet? Kansas State University has 22,000 students, what are the odds that Jaden is the only one of them that has either tweeted or retweeted something distasteful about BLM, or George Floyd, or Breonna Taylor, or any other black person killed by the police? Of course not, I'm sure It has happened since. The talking point that the university should acted on that tweet alone is incredibly frustrating, and even more frustrating that so many people are falling for this obvious shell game.

Exactly what I said on KSO awhile back.

Good to see you channeling my brilliance.

[DQ12]

People pretty clearly feel harassed by the tweet and Jayden pretty clearly doesn't care. I'm really not sure how one could come to the conclusion that the tweet wasn't intended to harass a specific segment of the population.

While this is true, I feel like making what should have happened to Jaden about one tweet is a losing proposition, is a losing proposition and minimizing the magnitude of needing to protect minority students from harassment on the basis of their race. This will just be a never-ending cycle of whataboutism with theoretical tweets about god knows what. The larger conversation is more important, IMO, and talking about one tweet makes it very easy for most people to completely ignore the larger conversation.

So MIR i'm sincerely asking you this in good faith, but what do you think should be done? What does justice being done on Jaden look like?

He should have been expelled.

My biggest problem with reducing this to one tweet is that, let's say it wasn't Jaden that tweeted that George Floyd tweet, but it was our buddy Greg. Does this shake out the way that it did? Does it get immediate traction? Does he double down? Does he ask his followers to retaliate against the athletes protesting or twitter accounts who lashed out at him for the tweet? Kansas State University has 22,000 students, what are the odds that Jaden is the only one of them that has either tweeted or retweeted something distasteful about BLM, or George Floyd, or Breonna Taylor, or any other black person killed by the police? Of course not, I'm sure It has happened since. The talking point that the university should acted on that tweet alone is incredibly frustrating, and even more frustrating that so many people are falling for this obvious shell game.

To be fair, people in this thread were suggesting that he ought to be given the boot based on the tweet. 

I don't really follow the non-bolded part of your post.  Obviously if Greg made the tweet it wouldn't gain as much traction or elicit the same response, largely because Greg doesn't have the notoriety on campus that McNeil has, and also doesn't have the already established reputation McNeil has.  We definitely agree there.  Help me get to the point you're making.  Is it the established pattern of McNeil's words and associations that warrant him being expelled?

[Spracne]

Looking beyond The Tweet to the totality of McNeil's misdeeds, as summarized by Trim's article:

Among the significant new findings from McNeil’s brief activist history:

Jaden McNeil has been involved with, not two, but four different participants in the murderous white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.

White nationalists provided even more guidance to McNeil in the formation of America First Students at Kansas State University than IREHR originally reported.

McNeil was warned by conservative peers about aligning with a “Nazi” like Nick Fuentes, but chose to ignore the warnings.

McNeil’s attendance at the Groyper Leadership Summit in December 2019, an event organized by white nationalists Nick Fuentes and Patrick Casey, has been further confirmed. McNeil is also scheduled to attend the white nationalist-organized America First Political Action Conference on February 28.

McNeil has amplified white nationalists on social media, repeatedly sharing white nationalist content to his followers.

McNeil interned with a “politically incorrect” podcast that was promoted by the founder of the Proud Boys. He also posted photos of himself flashing the “OK” hand signal at a political rally, a sign popularized by the Proud Boys, and designated a racist symbol by the Anti-Defamation League.

McNeil made crude homophobic comments, calling the LGBTQ+ community “degenerates” and using an anti-LGBTQ+ slur during an interview. He has also expressed hostility towards diversity and immigrants.

Replace "white nationalist" with "socialist" and you have a starkly similar list of offenses that were initially punishable in the early 20th century but eventually lead to the development of the First Amendment as we know it today. Replace "socialist" with "terrorist" and you see how these battles are playing out in the 21st century.

Why do we as a society insist on protecting shitheads like Jaden? To protect shitheads like you (plural) and me. Your rights are my rights. That is why it is imperative that we protect the ability of others to hold and profess ideas that we hate; sometimes, we might hold and profess ideas that others hate.