The riot to reform police thread

[sys]

stone is one of the more interesting and eclectic commenters on twitter (although i tend to find his graphs almost completely unreadable).

[michigancat]

stone is one of the more interesting and eclectic commenters on twitter (although i tend to find his graphs almost completely unreadable).

Yeah his excess covid death graphs are a lot

[steve dave]

lutheran, economist, husband....like looking in a mirror!

[MakeItRain]

Similar case here in Des Moines. There's video that's in the link on the tweet but long story short. Guy leads cops on a high speed chase, gets pitted when he pulls into a cul-de-sac, guy jumps out of the car with a handgun and runs into someone's back yard. The cops shoot him in the back. The handgun turns out to be a BB gun. You have to think this dude is going into someone's house with that gun. If it's my yard, I want the dude shot before he comes into my house.

https://twitter.com/KCCINews/status/1301983640159739911

Agreed


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That guy wasn't going in anyone's house or threatening anyone's life. Running from a cop while holding a gun shouldn't be an executable offense.

So they should have given him the chance? None of us, including that dude running with the BB gun, had no idea what he was going to do. I think your view of use of force actually has the potential to make things worse by muddying the waters. Police absolutely should not have do think whether someone fleeing with a gun, especially a suspect who has already shown you he will do whatever it takes to get away from you. I don't think we need to lower the standard for proper use of deadly force because of bad cops. If someone is fleeing with a gun they need to be stopped.

In these two cases, one guy running toward the cops with a gun, the other running into someone else's back yard, these seem like very clear or be killed situations. I refuse to see these in the same light as suffocating someone with your knee for 8 and a half minutes, or shooting an unarmed man in the back, or choking a 140'pound kid to death, or shooting a 12 year old in a park before the police car was even stopped. I don't want to strip police of the right to actually protect themselves or the people they've sworn to protect.

[michigancat]

So they should have given him the chance? None of us, including that dude running with the BB gun, had no idea what he was going to do. I think your view of use of force actually has the potential to make things worse by muddying the waters. Police absolutely should not have do think whether someone fleeing with a gun, especially a suspect who has already shown you he will do whatever it takes to get away from you. I don't think we need to lower the standard for proper use of deadly force because of bad cops. If someone is fleeing with a gun they need to be stopped.

I don't think you lower standards for use of force, you tear up the manual and create and entirely new approach from scratch. I take less issue with the individual cops' actions in the heat of the moment than I do with the system... Why do we send cops to respond to kids making silly videos holding guns?  What is the net public benefit of a high-speed chase? Could only arming very few cops make interactions with them less intense from the start?

In these two cases, one guy running toward the cops with a gun, the other running into someone else's back yard, these seem like very clear or be killed situations. I refuse to see these in the same light as suffocating someone with your knee for 8 and a half minutes, or shooting an unarmed man in the back, or choking a 140'pound kid to death, or shooting a 12 year old in a park before the police car was even stopped. I don't want to strip police of the right to actually protect themselves or the people they've sworn to protect.

They're actually pretty similar to Tamir Rice in that one had a bb gun and the other was shot 6 seconds after the cop got out of the car when he surprised him around a corner. I agree they're different from cases like Floyd, but that doesn't mean we should accept them and not try to think about what could have been done differently.

[michigancat]

This case is similar in that a cop killed a guy in a situation entirely initiated by the cop. There's a video that I won't share because it includes autopsy photos, but basically this cop thought a guy was riding a bike dangerously, tracked him down, beat the crap out of him with a flashlight and taser, guy took the flashlight and was trying to run away, but now the catch is he had a deadly weapon so the cop can use his gun. Of course no charges for the cop because he was pretty much following protocol but he did cost the city a lot of money and then shot a guy sleeping in a taco bell drive thru a year later.

https://twitter.com/SFGate/status/1302622219919474691

[MakeItRain]

So they should have given him the chance? None of us, including that dude running with the BB gun, had no idea what he was going to do. I think your view of use of force actually has the potential to make things worse by muddying the waters. Police absolutely should not have do think whether someone fleeing with a gun, especially a suspect who has already shown you he will do whatever it takes to get away from you. I don't think we need to lower the standard for proper use of deadly force because of bad cops. If someone is fleeing with a gun they need to be stopped.

I don't think you lower standards for use of force, you tear up the manual and create and entirely new approach from scratch. I take less issue with the individual cops' actions in the heat of the moment than I do with the system... Why do we send cops to respond to kids making silly videos holding guns?  What is the net public benefit of a high-speed chase? Could only arming very few cops make interactions with them less intense from the start?

In these two cases, one guy running toward the cops with a gun, the other running into someone else's back yard, these seem like very clear or be killed situations. I refuse to see these in the same light as suffocating someone with your knee for 8 and a half minutes, or shooting an unarmed man in the back, or choking a 140'pound kid to death, or shooting a 12 year old in a park before the police car was even stopped. I don't want to strip police of the right to actually protect themselves or the people they've sworn to protect.

They're actually pretty similar to Tamir Rice in that one had a bb gun and the other was shot 6 seconds after the cop got out of the car when he surprised him around a corner. I agree they're different from cases like Floyd, but that doesn't mean we should accept them and not try to think about what could have been done differently.

They are nothing similar to Tamir Rice and conflating them is the exact bullshit that is troubling. We are not going to water down the murder of a 12 year old black boy by comparing his death to grown men in the process of committing crimes, under the guise of all cops are bad and all shootings are unnecessary. There was no 6 seconds with Tamir Rice, he was instantly assassinated when there was information available that this was a child with a gun. In case you forgot how heinous this was I want you to watch it again so you don't make the foolish mistake of comparing what happened to this boy with some criminal getting shot.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/7Z8qNUWekWE[/youtube]

[michigancat]

So they should have given him the chance? None of us, including that dude running with the BB gun, had no idea what he was going to do. I think your view of use of force actually has the potential to make things worse by muddying the waters. Police absolutely should not have do think whether someone fleeing with a gun, especially a suspect who has already shown you he will do whatever it takes to get away from you. I don't think we need to lower the standard for proper use of deadly force because of bad cops. If someone is fleeing with a gun they need to be stopped.

I don't think you lower standards for use of force, you tear up the manual and create and entirely new approach from scratch. I take less issue with the individual cops' actions in the heat of the moment than I do with the system... Why do we send cops to respond to kids making silly videos holding guns?  What is the net public benefit of a high-speed chase? Could only arming very few cops make interactions with them less intense from the start?

In these two cases, one guy running toward the cops with a gun, the other running into someone else's back yard, these seem like very clear or be killed situations. I refuse to see these in the same light as suffocating someone with your knee for 8 and a half minutes, or shooting an unarmed man in the back, or choking a 140'pound kid to death, or shooting a 12 year old in a park before the police car was even stopped. I don't want to strip police of the right to actually protect themselves or the people they've sworn to protect.

They're actually pretty similar to Tamir Rice in that one had a bb gun and the other was shot 6 seconds after the cop got out of the car when he surprised him around a corner. I agree they're different from cases like Floyd, but that doesn't mean we should accept them and not try to think about what could have been done differently.

They are nothing similar to Tamir Rice and conflating them is the exact bullshit that is troubling. We are not going to water down the murder of a 12 year old black boy by comparing his death to grown men in the process of committing crimes, under the guise of all cops are bad and all shootings are unnecessary. There was no 6 seconds with Tamir Rice, he was instantly assassinated when there was information available that this was a child with a gun. In case you forgot how heinous this was I want you to watch it again so you don't make the foolish mistake of comparing what happened to this boy with some criminal getting shot.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/7Z8qNUWekWE[/youtube]

It's similar in the fact that the cops thought he was reaching for a gun so it was deemed justifiable. Clearly Rice's death was "worse" than the others, but that doesn't mean the others don't reveal very similar problems with policing.

I'm not making the argument that "all cops are bad". These cops were all doing what they're trained to do, but the way they're trained and utilized is mumped up.

[chum1]

Seems like a good idea.

https://twitter.com/EliseSchmelzer/status/1303354576750346241

[michigancat]

Seems like a good idea.

https://twitter.com/EliseSchmelzer/status/1303354576750346241

seems great! Kinda surprising it wouldn't eliminate the number of police needed but still a big win.

[Phil Titola]

Seems like a good idea.

https://twitter.com/EliseSchmelzer/status/1303354576750346241

Yeah it seems 911 calls should immediately be triaged as fire, PD, or mental health situation and assigned to three different responses.

[catastrophe]

Similar case here in Des Moines. There's video that's in the link on the tweet but long story short. Guy leads cops on a high speed chase, gets pitted when he pulls into a cul-de-sac, guy jumps out of the car with a handgun and runs into someone's back yard. The cops shoot him in the back. The handgun turns out to be a BB gun. You have to think this dude is going into someone's house with that gun. If it's my yard, I want the dude shot before he comes into my house.

https://twitter.com/KCCINews/status/1301983640159739911

Big problem on that one is the obvious risks of opening fire in a poorly lit residential neighborhood.

[sonofdaxjones]

Props to the Spanish Fort, AL police and related law enforcement agencies for acting in the exact opposite manner of police in multi-generational Dem strongholds when arresting a highly armed active shooter.   

[I_have_purplewood]

Seems like a good idea.

https://twitter.com/EliseSchmelzer/status/1303354576750346241

Yeah it seems 911 calls should immediately be triaged as fire, PD, or mental health situation and assigned to three different responses.

I like this idea.  I'd be interested to see how those 350 calls break down but nice to see it working.

[MakeItRain]

Similar case here in Des Moines. There's video that's in the link on the tweet but long story short. Guy leads cops on a high speed chase, gets pitted when he pulls into a cul-de-sac, guy jumps out of the car with a handgun and runs into someone's back yard. The cops shoot him in the back. The handgun turns out to be a BB gun. You have to think this dude is going into someone's house with that gun. If it's my yard, I want the dude shot before he comes into my house.

https://twitter.com/KCCINews/status/1301983640159739911

Big problem on that one is the obvious risks of opening fire in a poorly lit residential neighborhood.

Sure. Is the alternative just to let this dude run away, armed?

[sonofdaxjones]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54041549

Protests Pending Status:  TBD

[MakeItRain]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54041549

Protests Pending Status:  TBD

Only the biggest piece of crap would come away from reading that with a take about protests and race instead of the tragedy of the cops maiming that little boy. This little role you're playing continues to be a great barometer of the depths of human filth.

[michigancat]

that seems like a perfect case for the Denver mental health professional response. Also worthy of a protest

[MakeItRain]

that seems like a perfect case for the Denver mental health professional response. Also worthy of a protest

I wonder how this model is going to work for isolated/small communities. I'm skeptical as to how they would find the resources to make this work. Maybe small towns just dispatch EMTs and they themselves call police if they can't contain the situation? EMT training is real lacking though.

[michigancat]

that seems like a perfect case for the Denver mental health professional response. Also worthy of a protest

I wonder how this model is going to work for isolated/small communities. I'm skeptical as to how they would find the resources to make this work. Maybe small towns just dispatch EMTs and they themselves call police if they can't contain the situation? EMT training is real lacking though.

an undertrained EMT is probably better than an undertrained cop with a gun

[MakeItRain]

that seems like a perfect case for the Denver mental health professional response. Also worthy of a protest

I wonder how this model is going to work for isolated/small communities. I'm skeptical as to how they would find the resources to make this work. Maybe small towns just dispatch EMTs and they themselves call police if they can't contain the situation? EMT training is real lacking though.

an undertrained EMT is probably better than an undertrained cop with a gun

Yeah

[sonofdaxjones]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54041549

Protests Pending Status:  TBD

Only the biggest piece of crap would come away from reading that with a take about protests and race instead of the tragedy of the cops maiming that little boy. This little role you're playing continues to be a great barometer of the depths of human filth.

Don't even pretend you've turned over a new leaf BoardLunatic.   Everyone recognizes it's a tragedy and that strident steps need to be taken to correct this type of police action.   What also needs to be recognized is that people will likely not be out on the streets burning and looting in Glendale UT.

[I_have_purplewood]

that seems like a perfect case for the Denver mental health professional response. Also worthy of a protest

I wonder how this model is going to work for isolated/small communities. I'm skeptical as to how they would find the resources to make this work. Maybe small towns just dispatch EMTs and they themselves call police if they can't contain the situation? EMT training is real lacking though.

an undertrained EMT is probably better than an undertrained cop with a gun

Yeah

Maybe better training for 911 operators?  How can they not have some kind of better protocol when dealing with mental health issues?

[MakeItRain]

that seems like a perfect case for the Denver mental health professional response. Also worthy of a protest

I wonder how this model is going to work for isolated/small communities. I'm skeptical as to how they would find the resources to make this work. Maybe small towns just dispatch EMTs and they themselves call police if they can't contain the situation? EMT training is real lacking though.

an undertrained EMT is probably better than an undertrained cop with a gun

Yeah

Maybe better training for 911 operators?  How can they not have some kind of better protocol when dealing with mental health issues?

Are they the ones who decides who gets dispatched? I have no idea how this works. I always thought the dispatcher takes info from the caller and just blasts it out to all first responders with a radio.

[michigancat]

I don't think 911 operators are the problem here